T O P
NoCreativeName2016

China has used these [these exact same words](https://www.fmprc.gov.cn/mfa_eng/wjb_663304/zwjg_665342/zwbd_665378/202208/t20220824_10751079.html) about both Taiwan and [Ukraine](https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/china-says-it-respects-ukraines-sovereignty-russias-security-concerns-2022-02-25/), long before the fake Russian referendum.


thetaFAANG

Its in the Chinese constitution Its like their second amendment, a peculiarity that you won’t get very far questioning in that culture


Keepofish123

Forgive me if I’m wrong, but isn’t territorial integrity fundamental to statehood? I can’t think of another state in the world who thinks that territorial integrity could or should be readily compromised


recycled_ideas

China has a definition of respecting territorial integrity that basically translates as to "Stay the fuck out of everyone's business regardless of what they're doing because we want you to stay the fuck out of ours". It's not just "don't invade" it's "don't look or comment or intervene in any way. It's a phrase that can equally mean that the West should stay out of Russia's business or Russia should stay out of Ukraine but it mostly means that China wants nothing that might set a precedent for intervention in their country in any way. And of course China gets to determine what its territory is and no one should dispute it.


CaptainSluggo

Except China is up in everyone’s business.


Procrastinatedthink

That’s where the “you wont get very far questioning it” part comes in. When someone’s using the classic “we leave you alone, you leave us alone” when they’re a global superpower, it’s a shallow way of saying “we’ll take any perceived sleight against us as opportunities to fuck with you”


ancientweasel

Everytime Xi says Taiwan is part of China Biden should publicly ask Xi to meet in Taipei City for a coffee.


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Koakie

And at the same time they acknowledge Russia's "legitimate" security concerns. The way they explain the Chinese vietnamese war, where China invaded, was that ethnic Chinese were suppressed in vietnam so China had to barge in there to save them. Kinda similar to Crimea and Donetsk where Russia claims ethnic Russians live and they used the same excuse. Truth is China couldnt be fucked what happens with dpr and lpr. All they care about it how to get Taiwan.


tankmayvin

China has been very active in meddling with the affairs of other nations over the last 10 years or so. They are deep in Africa, buy up companies all over where they can, and try to exert influence over chinese abroad.


QubitQuanta

At the behest of the Africa governments, that's very different from US meddling, which includes Drone bombings.


The_Uncommon_Aura

It’s every almost country in the world. And it’s probably a lot worse than anyone has any clue about.


Kythorian

It’s ok, we aren’t intervening in China’s affairs if they invade Taiwan, we are just temporarily making Taiwan US territory, defending our own territory against foreign invasion and violation of our territorial integrity, then allowing Taiwan to split away from the US again. If that’s the definition of territorial integrity they want to use, it can be used by anyone.


OPconfused

I don't think a justified legality is what they're concerned with. They just want a superficial citation on paper. It doesn't mean anything to challenge their logic with the same logic. They aren't aiming for logic, just sufficient precedent to bring their people along.


Keepofish123

Not contesting what you’ve said about China’s definition of territorial integrity, but isn’t the Weberian definition of statehood “the monopoly of violence” I.e the right to pursue independent domestic and foreign policy without external interference?


recycled_ideas

It's not the nineteenth or even the twentieth century anymore. We're past letting countries do whatever they want without censure or consequences.


Cagouin

So if my country made a fake referendum in China and "annexed" China they'd just roll over and play ball?


chiss359

You are misunderstanding, they are criticizing the Russians with the phrase. Their ideal was an outcome where no territory changed hands, but a pro-eastern government was placed in Kiev, now their ideal outcome is Russia backing out (according to comments at the SCO)


Cagouin

In the way i read the article i felt like they were vague enough to imply that the annexation could also mean those territory were now Russian as much as the other way. My bad!


boxbackknitties

It is a terribly written article. It is just a statement made by the Chinese with no commentary on how it should or could be interpreted.


A_Talking_iPod

I think the article writers have no idea how to interpret it either, the statement is made to be purposefully vague in order to not upset anyone


CommanderPike

What’s kinda funny is it probably is intended for everyone to project what they want to hear onto it without actually committing to anything, but at least in this thread most people are interpreting it to mean what they DONT want. Kinda backfired.


SoMuchTehnique

Ukraine should flip the script and say that are separatists in that region who want to be free from Russia, invade and then hold their own referendum whilst the Russians retreat.


Iheuzio

Yep, Xi made it clear they don't support the russians anymore with the invasion months ago, however they are trying to send a message to the usa that if there's a controversial annexation of the land, china should be able to do it as well. As they consider taiwan apart of china and integral to their one china policy. Its just hitting back at the usa for bringing a military and political tension to taiwan, nothing of provoking a military aid for russia as they aren't supporting the endeavour. [https://www.reuters.com/world/china-not-giving-material-support-russias-war-ukraine-us-official-2022-07-01/](https://www.reuters.com/world/china-not-giving-material-support-russias-war-ukraine-us-official-2022-07-01/) [https://thediplomat.com/2022/09/chinas-public-opinion-is-shifting-away-from-russia/](https://thediplomat.com/2022/09/chinas-public-opinion-is-shifting-away-from-russia/) [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/24/russias-allies-china-and-india-call-for-negotiations-to-end-ukraine-war](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/sep/24/russias-allies-china-and-india-call-for-negotiations-to-end-ukraine-war)


oliilo1

Just to be clear: Apart = (of two or more people or things) separated by a distance; at a specified distance from each other in time or space. A part = One singular obiect.


cubbyatx

Kinda ironic, you'd think it would be the other way, since the words "a part" are apart


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spacec4t

Yes but in the case of these 2 English words, the origin was French. From *à part*.


Raynes98

It’s like the opposite of inflammable, which means something can easily be set on fire. Much like... flammable.


Immediate_Impress655

Wow I had to look that up. Opposites are fire proof or incombustible or nonflammable.


valenciansun

No, it's not like that at all.


marclaurens

alot of people get this wrong.


Lucky-Load2637

> As they consider taiwan apart of china... No, they consider the opposite. According to China, Taiwan is a part of China. They're not apart from them.


yelsamarani

they probably just made one of the more common typos of the English language.


luntglor

OP could be responsible for starting WW3 with that mistake .. a simple missing ' ' and off we go :/


_-Olli-_

Fuck! I had an offer to put a bet on /u/Iheuzio starting WW3 just last week as well!


_Auron_

[Like Hawaii](https://hips.hearstapps.com/hmg-prod.s3.amazonaws.com/images/queasygrandiriomotecat-max-14mb-1516131375.gif?crop=1xw:0.8791208791208791xh;center,top&resize=1200:*)


iFlynn

I think they’re being cheeky?


escfantasy

Typo = ancient Chinese word meaning an excuse provided for when you cannot spell correctly. Edit: for those that can’t tell, “/jk”


dellsharpie

He clearly meant 'a part', but you are correct the typo implies something completely different.


Lucky-Load2637

Could've been an honest typo but I see it so often I think a lot of people truly think "apart" means "a part", and not disconnected. Like people who seem to think of and have mean the same thing because "'ve" sounds like of in some accents/dialects.


BigTentBiden

The one that bugs me is "loose" vs "lose." Like someone saying "We're gonna loose the game!" Rather than "We're gonna lose the game!" I get why it happens so much. Choose, lose, close, nose, loose, noose, moose, goose. Especially with non-native English speakers. But still. As an aside, "loose" stopped looking like a real word halfway through writing this.


_Auron_

Also there's there their they're then than where wear were weather whether it's its break brake accept except affect effect compliment complement your you're hear here dear deer.


PertinentGlass

As someone who spends a lot of time in sports sub I see the same thing with the words resign and re-sign.


CharlieHush

A lot and 'alot' are common, but I think a result of poor education.


Crashdrive1

[My favorite alot!](https://i0.wp.com/jerz.setonhill.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/08/Screen-Shot-2019-03-28-at-12.02.13-PM.png?resize=500%2C489)


C0lMustard

Why is it you think the USA is the one bringing military and political pressure?


HelloJoeyJoeJoe

> the USA for bringing a military and political tension to taiwan Ah, glad to know the US is the reason for the tension and not the issue of Taiwain survival


Gustomaximus

> Yep, Xi made it clear they don't support the russians anymore Bollocks. He says things like this and still trades. cooperates and does military exercises with them. If China did sanctions towards Russia I suspect this war would be over in weeks. So he support Russia while saying appeasing things that suit his Taiwan agenda.


0wed12

China has no reason to follow western sanctions, especially for a european war that does not concern them at all. Neither does India or any other country for that matter.


bbb_net

> If China did sanctions towards Russia I suspect this war would be over in weeks. Why would they do that, it's in their best interest to let western powers bankrupt themselves in fuel war with Russia while they get it on the cheap.


nimrod123

The west bankrupt themselves? Their funding to Ukraine is fractions of what was spent in Afghanistan and they have pulled the teeth of the Russians. It's pretty up their in terms of return on investment, though still not as good as teaching a dozen guys to fly and plane and then letting the "great Satan" waste hundreds of billions per attacker in retirubution


bbb_net

There's a massive energy crisis in Europe right now because of this situation, sanctions on Russia are hurting the economies of European countries and their biggest financial partners. China/India have decided to have no part in this and continue with business as usual which benefits their standing. China and Russia aren't allied it isn't "the West" and anyone else is on the same team, China couldn't give a fuck if Russia decides to impoverish itself in some stupid landgrab just as it doesn't care if sanctions hurt European economies, any event where they get to increase their economic might by simply changing nothing is a massive win.


redeemedleafblower

Its funny how when India trades and does exercises with Russia, the comment section is flooded with people explaining how it’s not that bad and how India isn’t really a Russia ally and doesn’t have a choice but when China does the exact same stuff, everybody sees it as evidence of China supporting Russia. Really clues you in on the changing demographics of this website…


HK-53

i mean indians can use reddit to voice their opinion, also a lot of indians speak english fairly well. Chinese people can't access reddit except for the relatively tiny portion that uses VPNs, so it's not exactly rocket science as to why their position is not as well presented.


Eminent_Flight_

China will trade with anyone regardless. Them trading with a nation has nothing to do with supporting that nations interests


WeebAndNotSoProid

China has been saying this since Feb, and for every statements like this, they also flooded it with 10 "NATO and West bad. Russian concerns valid. US biolab. Ukraine Nazi" bullshit. This is a nothing burger.


Jugales

Territorial integrity of Ukraine, yes


Koko175

Chinese government is typically very vague in their public statements, I think it’s purposeful rather than lost in translation Their threats come off the same way


RowYourUpboat

Seems like a smarter approach than whatever the Russians are trying to do.


Winterspawn1

Not really a big achievement that


funwillfunwill

Xi Jinping probably thought Putin was a moron when the invasion happened. China is more calculated and risk averse thab Putin's Russia


Live-Cookie178

People keep thinking that china is volatile and ready to fuck taiwan.They aren't,china isn't going to go to war until 10 years later when their military & economic strength is higher than the united states,and they have their belt & road finished to ensure that their trade isn't going down the drain. Russia is the one with crazy old codger,china is the one with 5 year plans,a planned out succession process for each new president from 1980 onwards that details out the aims of the nation as a whole.Even though China isn't really a democracy,the members of the ccp number in the hundred millions and they wield significant political [power.In](https://power.In) china you need the support of a bunch of different committees or your screwed.


0wed12

This is exactly what most geopolitical experts and Taiwanese say. China has no reason to start a war now if they just have to keep gaining influence diplomatically and economically. 25 years ago, Taiwan's economy was 70% of China's, today it is only 3%... Since 2019, Nicaragua, Kiribati and Solomon Islands stopped recognizing Taiwan, and the trends will continue. And now that the U.S. has voted for the Chips ACT, we're going to be less reliant to Taiwan for the semi-conductors. Not sure the West will defend "democracy" in Taiwan after this.


VictoryNapping

Eating a hammer would be smarter than what the Russians are trying to do.


Nuclear_rabbit

Xi Jinping has been intentionally cultivating this skill in Chinese diplomacy.


Yadobler

Yup Can someone help me find, I can't find it on Google, but I remember there was an official who admitted a few years back that Chinese constitution was intentionally made vague and confusing so that the law can be applied both ways Both externally with other nations, and internally on their citizens / lower city councils


First-Funnies

my thoughts exactly...


Winds_Howling2

Are people not interpreting the statement this way? Issued right after a controversial territorial annexation, it in all likelihood refers to that.


EternalPinkMist

Their statement isn't to defend Ukraine, its to attack Taiwan.


DroneStrikeVictim

And justify their invasion of Philippine waters.


JPolReader

I think you mean South China's waters. /S


Sorlud

I mean, it's called the South **China** Sea /s


ezone2kil

Damn Atlantis is gonna make out like a bandit in this scenario.


-kerosene-

Yes but that’s not relevant to the fact that most people commenting can’t understand that they’re saying the status quo should be maintained since they can’t be seen to support the arbitrary re-drawing of a border.


Implausibilibuddy

~~It's very relevant.~~ By acknowledging part of a state can just vote itself into another country (sham vote or otherwise) they're leaving the option open of a state willing itself into existence, i.e. Taiwan voting itself independent once and for all. Their remarks have everything to do with Taiwan, the South China Sea, and the integrity of (what they consider to be) their own borders.


-kerosene-

Yes, as per my post.


Winds_Howling2

>"Our position and proposition on how to view and handle the Ukraine issue is consistent and clear: That is, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries should be respected," said ambassador Zhang Jun According to the article, this is not true.


HairlessWookiee

Beijing sees Taiwan as a breakaway province of China (the whole "one China policy"), not as an independent sovereign nation. What they are saying is that Taiwan's borders are China's borders, thus everyone else should stay out of it when they finally decide to resolve the matter with force.


CpT_DiSNeYLaND

Yes. You are correct. But what concerns Beijing about Ukrain and the "referendums", sham though they are, is if they end up holding, it can give legitimacy to Taiwan trying to break away.


DependentAd235

Yup, Taiwan being part of China is something that both Countries technically agree on. The idea that voting can make Taiwan not part of China is a danger to this view. Now China can just be a hypocrite if they need to but they don’t want to give the US diplomatic ammunition.


skullofregret

>Yup, Taiwan being part of China is something that both Countries technically agree on. That's the History 101 version, but it's a bit more complex. Taiwanese politics is divided between 'green' Taiwanese, represented by the DPP/Pan-Green Coalition, and 'Blue' Taiwanese, represented by the Nationalists (KMT). Greens do not support unification in any form, they consider that Taiwan has developed an independent Identity. The current President is Green. Blues traditionally support unification, albeit under a democratic government. The blue position is much preferred by the CCP, and cross-strait relations are much improved when the KMT is in power. Sometimes you see redditors throwing out Nationalist flags and slogans to defy the CCP without realising it's actually the CCP preferred party in Taiwan.


ConohaConcordia

An added nuance is that the “Green” side is not monolithic (neither is the Blue side). While they are defined by not wanting to unify with China, their exact attitudes range from an indefinite extension of the status quo, a negotiated independence eventually to a unilateral declaration now. The ideology within the Green faction also varies from neoliberalism to social democracy to hard core nationalism. In fact, DPP are seen by some in the Green faction as being undemocratic or not pro-independence enough. Cross-strait relations aren’t the only thing discussed in Taiwanese politics however. Local or economic issues can and will change the electoral calculus.


dream208

Nowhere on Taiwan/ROC’s constitution does it mention the term “中國/ China”. In fact, if you wanted to get technical, there is no country in the world that named “China”. PRC and ROC have ever been two separated entities regardless how hard that PRC trying to gaslight it.


DependentAd235

Well I didn’t make their website so… I don’t know what you want me to do. https://english.president.gov.tw/page/93


Eclipsed830

Exactly... Within modern context of Taiwan, the term China (中國) almost exclusively refers to the PRC. It is the position of the Taiwanese government, both political parties, and the vast majority of Taiwanese that under the status quo Taiwan, officially as the ROC, is already a sovereign independent country.


csoi2876

“中國” is shortened version of either 中華民國 (RoC) or 中華人民共和國(PRC). In the [constitution of RoC](https://law.moj.gov.tw/ENG/LawClass/LawAll.aspx?pcode=A0000001), they literally refer themselves as the Republic of China, not Taiwan. The two governments claims to represent all Chinese people and inheriting the Qing Empire, which includes all seceded land (Mongolia, Tibet, Xinjiang, Macau, Hong Kong and Taiwan). Hence, even the CCP never had physically controlled the island of Taiwan, they still have legal claim over it, as it was part of the Qing empire.


EternalPinkMist

Youre missing the subtle nuance of the rule of precedent. Its called "setting an example." If they say they believe the break away provinces have a right to self determination through referendum, then that means they're setting the precedent that some referdums of separation are legal, and that gives Taiwan more claim to independence especially if they launch their own referendum.


CadiaStans

You are clearly failing to read the subtext. China uses this language when talking about the situation with Taiwan all the damn time.


hatgineer

They like to give ambiguous statements as a way to disarm foreigners while being able to point back at the statement after the fact as some gotcha to pat themselves on the back that they "outsmartered" foreigners. The statement can equally mean "territorial integrity" of the referenda should be respected, in support of Russia. These statements are ironed out by committees, if there is even a small room for ambiguity, it is on purpose, and there is a large room for ambiguity.


TThor

"territorial integrity" has been the buzzword Russia has been throwing around in reference to upcoming annexations, saying that they would use every means available to defend Russia's "territorial integrity", including of new territories (i.e. Russia is threatening to nuke Ukraine)


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Sure-Cap5415

In fairness, China has condemned the annexation/temporary occupation of Crimea and has called for the end of the war. Not a fan of China but this could be their public forum for rebuking Ruzzia….or so I hope


blahbleh112233

In fairness China's only doing that because they claim that Taiwan was always part of the mainland. If Taiwan were to ever get UN recognition, you'd bet they'd be changing their tune pretty quick.


EnricoShang

The UN collectively revoked recognition for Taiwan in favor of the PRC when it was formed. It's unlikely they're ever going back on that.


CryonautX

They only recognised Taiwan as not being China. Taiwan can still gain recognition as an independent country. You have to understand that Taiwan back then was kind of a dick and was claiming they controlled the whole of china even though they have already been ousted. They were too arrogant to have a seat that isn't China. Of course, the sentiment among Taiwanese people have changed today. Being recognised as China is no longer the goal


BunnyCatLove

You realize that the waishengren that controlled Taiwan back then were never even a majority of the population in Taiwan right? Most of us see the people that lost the civil war as much as invaders as much as we would have seen the PRC back then. They don't speak Taiwanese, they aren't from the same ancestral roots, and they put us under a military dictatorship. The public sentiment hasn't changed, just that we are a representative democracy rather than a dictatorship run by people who lost the Chinese civil war.


shoutbottle

Something I never thought about. So Taiwan as a country before the KMT fled there were in a sense not related nor a part of China? Or were they part of China, just disconnected from whatever civil war was happening between the CCP and KMT?


Thucydides411

Taiwan was a part of China from the late 1600s until 1895, when China lost a war with Japan and was forced to give up the island. In 1945, when Japan lost WWII, the Allies forced Japan to give Taiwan back to China. In 1949, the Chinese government lost the civil war to the Communists, and evacuated its army to Taiwan. Ever since, there have been two different Chinese governments: one on the mainland, and one in Taiwan. When OP says that the KMT soldiers didn't speak Taiwanese, they're referring to the Chinese dialect spoken in Taiwan. That dialect is actually very closely related to the dialects spoken across the strait, in Fujian province, because most of the people who settled Taiwan from the 1600s onward came from Fujian. The KMT preferred Mandarin, the standard dialect of Chinese that's been promoted by both the KMT and the Communists as a common national language. Nowadays, about 70% of people in Taiwan speak their dialect, but pretty much everyone also knows Mandarin, which is increasingly used by younger people. Taiwanese Mandarin is considered cute in Mainland China, so a lot of people copy it nowadays.


_Fish_

Very informative. Thank you.


Sergisimo1

As someone who works with both Chinese and Taiwanese nationals, this was very interesting to read.


Eclipsed830

Taiwan was part of Japan. The idea of a unique "Taiwanese identity" actually originated [during Japanese rule and the Taiwan nativist literature movement in the 1920's](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiwan_nativist_literature). Your question reminds me of the 1946 novel [Orphan of Asia by Wu Chuo-liu](https://toolkit.culture.tw/en/literatureinfo_79_170.html): >"The Orphan of Asia examines the issue of colonial identity – a controversial theme that challenged Wu’s readers to ask themselves: Am I Chinese, Japanese, or Taiwanese? Protagonist Hu ultimately realizes he is neither Japanese nor Chinese, his disappearance a metaphor for the Taiwanese people’s search for themselves. While the ending offers no clues as to which direction that search might take, the novel has been recognized as a classic work of colonial literature."


lightwell

It was literally ceeded to the Japanese as war spoils. Before then it was part of Qing dynasty China.


BunnyCatLove

No, we were not a country before the KMT. We are still not a de jure country today, though are a de facto country. China claimed the island since the 17th century, but initially did not allow people to move there, as it had been used previously by a rebel kingdom. They heavily criminalized most immigration to Taiwan until the latter half of the 18th century, though, so most people in Taiwan are descendent from settlers from Fujian who moved between 1800-1895, at which point we were ceded to Japan. During most of the Chinese Civil War, we were still a part of Japan. We were almost completely disconnected to China even after we were given to the ROC until they lost the war, because they did not have the ability to do much in Taiwan due to being preoccupied with the Civil War.


Scvboy1

I’m sure that’ll happen while China and Russia have veto power


codydodd

Ascension to the general assembly does not go through the security council veto iirc.


currently_struggling

Well if you want to become a full member, then there needs to be a securuty council recommendation (with veto) plua two-thirds majority in the general assembly. You can also become an observer (like Palestine) which only needs a resolution by simple majority in the general assembly.


Hotspur000

Not exactly. Chiang Kai-shek was so pissed off about the switch in recognition he pulled Taiwan out himself. If he hadn't been such a hothead a compromise solution might have been found. But he didn't give it a chance.


Do_Not_Go_In_There

Not really the same thing - they switched from the ROC (just Taiwan by that point) having a seat in the UN to the PRC (all of China). Essentially they decided it didn't make sense for a small island to represent China and leave the rest of China without representation. e: Also, the UN voted in 1971 to recognize the PRC, the ROC (or KMT) retreated to Taiwan in 1949. Since then China has claimed that Taiwan is part of China (Chinese Taipei) and threatened to boycott/embargo anyone that recognizes Taiwan as an independent country. Which they are and have been for decades, it's just that nobody calls them that for legal reasons.


mooingmango

From China's perspective, "territorial integrity" means Taiwan doesn't spin off to become a separate country. Nonsensical talk I know, but bear with me. So - China should really be against Russia, for pointing at another country's region and be like "that ain't yours anymore". For their own sake. But they've been super ambiguous with Russia since the latter's invasion (and that's putting it very lightly), so I don't think they're rebuking Russia. Then again, [China is pretty firmly planted on the fence](https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2022/9/15/hat-in-hand-putin-meets-xi-at-summit-in-samarkand).


Sure-Cap5415

Agreed: it’s a dual-purpose message for sure


wubbbalubbadubdub

Nah they don't give a shit about Ukraine, they are sending bullshit historically inaccurate messages about Taiwan.


BrosenkranzKeef

No, they are actually sending a very consistent message here. Consistent with their view of Taiwan of course, which they think it part of China and therefore absorbing Taiwan would be respecting their own territorial integrity. The rest of the world doesn’t agree obviously but for China’s purposes their message is consistent.


Dani_vic

Very consistent. They don’t like what Russia is doing because it put a big target on them for Taiwan and taught the world how to quickly respond economically. Plus if they hold up their deals China will have to defend Ukraine militarily if Russia is dumb enough to nuke


AratimBifhml

And if they don't hold up their deals when push comes to shove in a case like this, they will lose a lot of ground in their attempt to position themselves as another pole of the global order


Dani_vic

Exactly. China is trying hard to build it self around the world as someone countries want to sign treaties with. If they back out. It will be a shot to their credibility.


boilingfrogsinpants

They believe in the territorial integrity of Ukraine because they're trying to fluff up this idea of Chinese territorial integrity, I.E. the belief that Taiwan belongs to China. So they believe if they support Ukrainian territorial integrity it makes them logically consistent.


Terran_it_up

Russia's justification for their "special peacekeeping operation" was that they believed the Donbas region was independent and that they were sending troops there to prevent conflict. China doesn't like this because if it becomes viewed as an acceptable justification for their actions then the US could use it as a precedent, declare Taiwan independent, and place troops on and around the island to prevent conflict between China and Taiwan.


TheMikeyMac13

Agreed, Ukraine’s territory should be protected, a referendum ahead of losing it won’t change anything.


Randomize1234

That is exactly what they mean. They are forced to not cut ties completely with Russia because trump kept targeting China and they have nowhere else to find support. Russia had a history of invading China and china and ussr even fought in a war. They don’t just automatically love each other because neither is “a free country”


TopTheropod

And Taiwan


RolandosFissure

This is super ambiguous as to whose view of territorial integrity they are referring to.


Tribalbob

That's the point.


RolandosFissure

I guess that’s the “strategic ambiguity” I keep hearing about


JigglesMcRibs

That's certainly a possibility.


green_flash

There's no ambiguity from China's side at all. They have come out in support of Ukraine’s territorial integrity at the time of the 2014 Crimean referendum already. Same for all other independence referendum not supported by the host country, e.g. Catalonia or Iraqi Kurdistan.


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telcoman

What is China saying doesn't mean it is what China will be doing. I am super curious why China keeps silent regarding nuclear posture having in mind this https://www.wsj.com/articles/under-new-scrutiny-chinas-nuclear-pledge-to-ukraine-11647007200 >An unusual and mostly forgotten pledge Chinese President Xi Jinping signed eight years ago that China would protect Ukraine in the event of a nuclear attack is getting fresh attention following Russia’s invasion of its Eastern European neighbor.


caboosetp

That still checks though. I'm fairly certain China also does not want nukes going off. War is one thing but nukes will fuck everyone.


Crosscourt_splat

I mean, Russia setting the precedent of territories leaving their original country directly hurts China's current aims.


hagreea

Or Russia is setting the precedent to annex territories on the basis that they were previously unified with a larger homeland (ie Ukraine-USSR, Taiwan- Qing dynasty/China). There’s two sides to that coin unfortunately.


Crosscourt_splat

That territory hasn't been Russia's for over 100 years. Ukriane was its own state within the USSR. As was Russia.The USSR is not the same. Not to mentiom at the dissolution of the USSR, these Territories were not disputed. The only one that was odd would have been Sevastopol due to the Naval base. China is against this annexing of these territories..and specifically it being framed as those territories choice to leave...because it goes against their interest and what their goals with Taiwan are.


MyGoodOldFriend

>that territory hasn’t been Russia’s for over 100 years Minus Crimea, which is “just” 65-odd years removed from Russia. But yeah, you’re right. Russia, Ukraine and Belarus all seceded from the USSR. Which is a distinction I feel like most people don’t consider. Russia didn’t lose territory, she seceded alongside them. Revanchism has built up in more recent times, and even then, it’s mainly Putin.


Crosscourt_splat

Yeah I usually count Sevastopol as all of Crimea because that is largely the kicker of the region. 100% though. The former USSR states are a vastly complicated group or interwined relations through culture, language, history, and economics to vastly varying degrees, and many of their citizens were very mucu still alive during the USSR. Most colleges offering CP/IR classes that specify region have entire semesters worth of classes on the former Soviet States. And you often can't view them without studying the very complicated history of the last 250 years as well.


Pun-Master-General

China's stance is that Taiwan is *still* part of China (an autonomous part, but a part nonetheless), so there would be no need for annexation to reunite it. Citing "countries can annex places that used to be part of them" as precedent would require stating that Taiwan isn't *currently* part of China, so they don't want that.


b_lurker

Even bigger twist when you notice that Chinese irredentists claim the Russian far east that used to be part of Qing Manchuria as rightful Chinese territory.


green_flash

It's not ambiguous. China generally refers to the status of countries as recognized by the majority of UN members when making such statements. In the case of these referendums, they violate the territorial integrity of Ukraine as recognized by the UN.


[deleted]

its not at all ambiguous... they called russia to go back to minsk agreement. Do people don't even bother to check?


ratherenjoysbass

If it's china saying it, I think it's a good bet they're using the UN's language of defending Ukraine's borders as a means to say a certain territory is also a part of china.


TheShark12

The way I’m reading this is China is saying Ukrainian borders need to be respected while condemning the referendums without actually saying it. Lotta jumping to conclusions in here.


Similar-Lifeguard701

China doesn't support what Russia's doing in regards to territorial annexation because it's trying to be logically consistent with its One China policy. A lot of people are either misinterpreting it or don't understand the historical issues between the PRC and ROC. The PRC doesn't want to grant legitimacy to the concept that a historical territory can just break off and either become another country because that's a threat to their concept of a One China that includes Taiwan, Tibet, and Xinjiang.


Peejay22

This is the most correct answer


micmea668

Xinjiang\*


Similar-Lifeguard701

Ty editing


jdeo1997

Pretty much, especially as Russia's actions would cause issues for China in regards to Taiwan


[deleted]

Tbf, they could've meant Ukraine. Even after the referendum those parts aren't part of Russia even in Russian law until formally annexed. So, just a rather ambiguous statement really.


Scary-Lab8239

"Our position and proposition on how to view and handle the Ukraine issue is consistent and clear: That is, the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries should be respected," said ambassador Zhang Jun, whose government in Beijing is sometimes seen by the West as being too accommodating with Russia" - integrity of ALL countries aka Ukraine but the fuck if that means anything


TheStreetNomad

Yeah this is doublespeak so it can be interpreted either way in the event Russia loses


MadNhater

They really don’t want to be involved in this war lol


TheBlackBear

Russia’s best case scenario of this war was basically Iraq 2006. I’m still amazed they actually pulled the trigger.


SuperSprocket

They flaked hard after Russia started to get their shit kicked in. Fair enough.


StoryboardPilot

They recognize Crimea, Donbas, and all the other "breakaway regions" as part of Ukraine. What am I missing here?


Lo-siento-juan

Double speak? Jfc people are crazy, it's a statement explicitly supporting Ukraine. The only reason people are finding that difficult to understand is because they live the a fantasy world where China is a comic book villain.


ManfredTheCat

What I thought. A lot of people jumping to conclusions in here.


SilverStar1999

It’s China. Either or. Whatever interpretation benefits them the most at any given time.


Nebuli2

This does feel like a deliberately vague "make everyone happy" statement that doesn't commit them to anything.


-wellplayed-

doublespeak


vid_icarus

This is one of the most perfect political statements I’ve ever read. It clearly and firmly takes a moral position of nothing, satisfying no one but annoying everyone… just not enough for them to do anything about. Truly, masterwork politics.


Cptcuddlybuns

"The sovereignty and territorial integrity of all nations should be respected." "But who rightfully owns the territory then, in your view?" *Camera cuts back to a chair comically swiveling as the diplomat runs out the door*


u60cf28

In theory, China abides by whatever the UN recognizes as a country’s legitimate borders. So they would be siding with Ukraine here Ofc, China doesn’t specifically say this, and there sure as hell aren’t going to be any reporters asking them for clarification


Dogzilla66

Lol - this is the most China statement ever. This can be interpreted as a message of support by all sides


Loreki

Treaty obligations should also be respected. The Budapest memorandum of 1994 obliges the Russian federation to respect Ukraine's borders as they then were in 1994. Any advance into Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk by Ukrainian forces is simply enforcing that treaty and is unobjectionable.


raytoei

Subtle but it gets across that China will not recognise Donbas as part of Russia.


robammario

China hasn't even recognized Crimea yet


kuahara

You mean this isn't a message to the U.N. that they want their territorial claim on Taiwan to be respected?


essaysmith

I'll assume they mean the "territorial integrity" of Ukraine.


A40

Ambiguous wording much?


wurtin

There is no way that China would back this type of referendum that was held in the Ukrainian territories by the Russians. Because then Taiwan could hold a referendum saying that they wanted to be their own country and China would have to respect the vote. There is no circumstance where China would agree to that


Familiar-Repair-7885

I still can not believe this is happening in 2022-23. Everyone needs to fix and secure there problems at home. The time for tyrannical leadership has passed. We all need to focus on the earth, environment and human evolution.


Melted_Leg_Juice

Its incredibly depressing how Victorian some of these foriegn policies are. The tragedy of the commons writ large....when we're mostly educated enough to think and act better than that now. Its such a shame, and a real achilles heal for humanity.


a_sense_of_contrast

If anyone knows anything about expressions of democratic choice, it's China!


TheMikeGolf

China: territorial integrity must be respected UNSC: whose territorial integrity? China: Yes.


Solid_Step1717

Hey China put those words on a test.,. Let Taiwan vote pro or con....


ivegotapenis

Surely their words were intended to mean exactly the opposite of that? Their position is that part of a country voting to secede, ie Donbas/Taiwan, is not a valid justification for that region to leave Ukraine/China.


TheWormInWaiting

This is them critiquing the votes lol. Chinas been pretty consistently against any annexation for exactly that reason.


[deleted]

people just cant be bothered to read 🙄


Exist50

> Let Taiwan vote pro or con.... What would be literally the opposite of what they're saying about Ukraine.


TossZergImba

Jesus Christ. You realize their point is that a separatist territory can't just hold a referendum and decide to unilaterally declare independence from its original country, right? They're saying a Taiwanese referendum would be just as illegitimate as a Crimean/Donbass referendum.


Druid_Fashion

AFAIK a lot of the Taiwanese people actually prefer to keep the current status quo, at least a couple years a go.


Sir_Bumcheeks

That's only because there are thousands of missiles pointing at them.


particleman3

They would rig the shit out of that vote


MaintenanceSmart7223

If blank ballots work for Russia Taiwan stands no chance.


88leo

How could hey when they have absolutely no control at all over what does or does not happen in the Sovereign land of Taiwan.


FightingFuton

Referendum to make Taiwan a part of the United States then?


Ramenorwhateverlol

That'll be hilarious if Taiwan becomes a state before Puerto Rico or Guam.


Ramenorwhateverlol

Not sure, but PR and DC are both paying federal taxes without any representation though.


[deleted]

[удалено]


UrbanGhost114

Uhhhh, at least half of US states take more than they put in federal income tax my dude.


PaoDaSiLingBu

Fuck that; I moved to Taiwan to get out of the US.


Queebal

Ukraine should hold the same and publish their results as well


Equivalent-Lion4073

It's not clear to me what they mean by that, Ukraine wise.


EarthlyMartian-21

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.


Grimeychisels

Startiiiinnnng…. Now.


isthebuffetopenyet

The territorial integrity of Ukraine should be respected I assume is what they're referring to, isn't it? Surely that's what they mean? They can't possibly mean respect a sham referendum but ignore an invasion!!??


PilotKnob

So wait, does that mean they support the Russian annexation and we should respect the fake new Russian claimed lands, or does that mean that Russia should be respecting Ukrainian territorial integrity? This whole thing is a joke. They're holding a vote with only one possible outcome and everyone's supposed to simply accept it. This has to be a form of mental illness.


Baneken

Chinas proverbial cow in the ditch here is that they don't want any BS or legimate democratic referendums to become a thing in international law as it would greatly dilute their claims on Taiwan and to a lesser extent Tibet. What they want is "to the victor goes the spoils" and/or keep the status quo with current borders.


lobehold

This is borderline misinformation. The wording made it seem like China’s statement contain a reference to the referendum when in fact the only relation to it is that the statement was made after the referendum has occurred. The “respect sovereignty and territorial integrity” line was the same bullshit China has been spouting from the start trying to “both sides” the Russian aggression, it didn’t suddenly change.