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Merkel honours Holocaust victims, vows German commitment to Israel

Merkel honours Holocaust victims, vows German commitment to Israel

tallandlanky

Crazy how different WWII history is treated by Germany and Japan.


RectangleU

Japan could have changed its constitution and Article 9 at any time since 1952 but hasn't done so. Considering both countries are the most pacifist of the major economies both have learned their lesson one way or another.


WasabiBobbi76

Actually setting those losing wars up for success was not all that common immediately prior to WWII. Considering what had *just happened* with WWI and the massive luck and sacrifice to get where we are today, we should be thankful that the issues we argue about are so simple.


Zandrick

I don’t understand this comment. What are you talking about?


MonkeyCube

I think they mean that aiding in the recovery of the economies of defeated nations was not common before WW2, and instead like in the aftermath of WW1, those countries were often heavily punished. Japan, Germany, and other countries benefited from economic aid following the war, though there was some selfish reasons to it like containing communism and projecting soft power.


SgtQuadratEnte

„Heavily punished“ Dude, you should check out the treaties for reparations etc before that. Treaty of Versailles was on par with most of them. Treaty of Trianon was really harsh compared to the „standard“ back then. You wanted to make sure your neighbour couldn’t attack you for a bit, especially if their entire cultural identity is based around the army. I say this as a German, can’t really blame the Entente, Germanies peace would’ve been just as harsh.


ArchmageXin

The thing is, there is a % of Japanese domestic politic/electorate goes "Japan did no wrong, Nanjing is fake news, and Korean women really loved Japanese cocks (and money)" Sure, it is their rights to do so...but it also tick off their neighbors for the same. Not to mention Chinese/Korean politicians are also forced to respond/use the chance to raise their own political stock. So at the end of the days, the three major combatant of WWII Asia will constantly grate against each other.


Raestloz

The Kantogun is one thing but the Korean women thing could've been resolved if only Korea actually wants to solve it After WW2 Japan and Korea signed a normalization treaty: everything between Korea the vassal state and Empire of Japan were null and void, the state of Japan and Korea are now equal and start a new life. During the negotiation Korea mentioned the whole comfort women thing and Japan proposed to pay the affected women and their families directly. Korea actually said no thanks just pay the money to us and we'll distribute it ourselves. The South Korean government actually declassified documents in 2005 that stated this. http://english.chosun.com/site/data/html_dir/2005/01/17/2005011761043.html Apparently they asked that money not to actually compensate the women, but to gain reparations money. The Korean government did not in fact distribute that money, only a bit of it, and even wiggled out of paying it because apparently the treaty did not mention that they had to pay out the victims. The treaty that they themselves helped write When the victims demanded that Japan do something, Japan refused because as far as they were concerned they've done exactly as the Korean government requested. Korea then dangled the issue to rally the people and demand even more payment from Japan, after a while Japan eventually caved in and paid Korea again, with Korea promising that this time they'll consider this issue solved To Japan's surprise Korea doesn't actually pay the victims, they took the money but didn't do anything. For the next decades Korea will repeat this pattern of demanding money for a debt they've already collected, promising that the debt is gone this time, only to turn around and say nope you're still indebted In 2015 Korea demanded money again, and promised Japan and this time, they'll consider the issue "finally ends", pinky promise. They'll even remove the comfort woman statue in front of Japanese embassy! Japan paid $8.3 million to Korea, and to Japan's surprise after they took the money Korea immediately turned around and proclaimed the issue still stands, with the statue returned to where it was, but not the money! The money is still in Korean hands It'd be far, far easier to get Japan to finally admit they captured Korean women if Korea actually holds their end of the agreement they keep making


ArchmageXin

Comfort women existed more than just Korea you know (I believe one was actually dutch). And it goes beyond just repatriation (Which is a separate matter in which Korea certainly did wrong). The point is the MESSAGE. China, Japan and Korea all held a certain level of Confucianism of honoring one's ancestors. And face play a huge part in domestic politics. So Japan want to make their ancestors look better as part of domestic politics, which also would mean China and Korea would also play the card other way around. So when you take a message like "We paid Korea well" Or "Chinese Communists made up Nanjing massacre", then shit is going to fly.


Raestloz

Why would Japan attempt to even admit their wrongdoings, considering that *even when they do*, the victims turn around and say "No! No! I changed my mind! That one doesn't count! No I won't give this money back, this is mine now!" Those treaties were signed between multiple Japanese governments and multiple Korean governments. That wasn't a one-off betrayal, they consistently did it multiple times. Every single time Japan asks to apologize and pay directly, every single time Korea said no we'll do it ourselves, every single time Korea reneged on it, every single time the victims decided whatever their government did doesn't count. If Korea will do it, why wouldn't other countries? If you're willing to look the other way for Korea's shenanigans, don't be surprised when Japan does the same, they've been doing it for years


Talx_abt_politix

Main difference is that Japan didn't have their version of de-Nazification. Imperial Japanese leaders and war criminals were reinstalled as a bulwark against Communism.


hiddenuser12345

The fact that the AfD gets even 10% of the German vote shows that the way Germany treats it isn’t perfect either.


niceworkthere

Which country does not have at least 10% idiots?


AZ_R50

According to polls the Taliban only has 12.5% of sympathisers in Afghanistan during 2020. Yet, with that % they literally conquered the entire country. The Nazis was also only a fringe movement with 2.8% of Germans voting for them in 1928. 5-6 years later they consolidated the German state. Don't underestimate the power of a capable and organised minority.


hiddenuser12345

Voting for the AfD goes beyond just being idiots.


nibbler666

While the AfD is an extremist right-wing party similar to Trump supporters ("patriotism", homophobia, racism, anti-immigrant, anti-minority, disinformation, populism, tendency to conspiracy theories, authoritarian, undermining democracy, denouncing quality media, etc.) and I surely don't ever want to see them close to any government position, one can hardly say that this party wants to start another world war, a new Holocaust or a new Third Reich.


hiddenuser12345

A new Holocaust, they haven’t demonstrated. But another Reich, I would say all those things together demonstrate a desire for such.


Heiminator

I wish I had your optimism. Let me quote former AFD press secretary Christian Lüth, secretly recorded on video answering the question if more migrants would be a good thing for Germany:"Yes. Because it's good for our party (implication being it gets them more voters as ethnic germans would drift to the right politically). We can still shoot them all later, that's not the issue. Or gas them, or however you like. I don't care how we do it." German source here: https://www.tagesspiegel.de/politik/videoaufnahmen-aus-einer-bar-afd-sprecher-wollte-fluechtlinge-ins-land-lassen-um-sie-zu-vergasen/26224278.html Make no mistake, these people dream of a new fascist state on german soil.


nibbler666

There are certainly some people who dream of an authoritarian state (even though I don't think that this quote reflects the party as a whole). But insofar as they do dream of an authoritarian state, this is all captured in how I described the AfD in my previous post.


Heiminator

How much clearer than "We can still shoot them all later, that's not the issue. Or gas them" do high-ranking party members need to spell out that they want another Holocaust for people to take it seriously as a threat?


angry-mustache

AFD is strongest in East Germany, which didn't have the same reconciliation process as West Germany. In West Germany AFD is a <10% party.


antisocially_awkward

A large majority of the west german government was made up of former nazis


nibbler666

Obviously this didn't prevent the country from learning from it's past.


BubbaTee

>East Germany, which didn't have the same reconciliation process as West Germany. You have it backwards, East Germany had much stronger de-Nazification efforts than West Germany. West Germany was led by literal, card-carrying Nazis through the 1970s. > (Walter) Scheel became **acting chancellor of West Germany** from 7–16 May 1974 following Brandt's resignation after the Guillaume Affair. He was elected shortly after as the **president of West Germany**, remaining in the role until 1979.  > ... Scheel became a member of the **Nazi** Party in 1942. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Scheel > Kurt Georg Kiesinger (German: [ˈkʊʁt ˈɡeːɔʁk ˈkiːzɪŋɐ]; 6 April 1904 – 9 March 1988) was a German politician who served as the **chancellor of West Germany** from 1 December 1966 to 21 October 1969. Before he became Chancellor he was a **Nazi** Party member https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Georg_Kiesinger > Hans Josef Maria Globke (10 September 1898 – 13 February 1973) was a German lawyer, high-ranking civil servant and politician, who was **Under-Secretary of State and Chief of Staff of the German Chancellery in West Germany** from 28 October 1953 to 15 October 1963. > ... Globke helped to **formulate the Enabling Act of 1933**, which effectively gave Adolf Hitler dictatorial powers. > ... He co-authored the official legal commentary on the new **Reich Citizenship Law, one of the Nuremberg Laws** introduced at the Nazi Party Congress in September 1935, which revoked the citizenship of German Jews > ... Globke also served as **chief legal adviser to the Office for Jewish Affairs in the Ministry of Interior, headed by Adolf Eichmann**, that performed the bureaucratic implementation of the Holocaust.[14] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Globke > From 1949 to 1973, 90 of the 170 leading lawyers and judges in the then-West German Justice Ministry had been members of the Nazi Party. > ... In 1957, 77% of the ministry's senior officials were former Nazis, which, according to the study, was a **higher proportion that during Hitler's Third Reich government**, which existed from 1933 to 1945. https://www.businessinsider.com/former-nazi-officials-in-germany-post-world-war-ii-government-2016-10 The American/NATO side of the Cold War loved Nazis, because no one is more reliably anti-communist than a fascist. It's the same reason Japan's WW2 leaders were allowed to stay in power, and Franco kept ruling Spain.


Gammelpreiss

>You have it backwards, East Germany had much stronger de-Nazificationefforts than West Germany. West Germany was led by literal,card-carrying Nazis through the 1970s. Not at all, and misleading on top of it. Official denazification was a thing by both East and West Germany, to a varying degree. It never touched the underlying reasons within the population itself. What seperates East and West Germany is the 69er movement and the consequent changes of view within all of society, followed by a slow and steady work up of the past including all layers of society. Something like that never happend in the GDR. To the contrary, the GDR declared itself not in the legal tradition and as such itself not responsible of the crimes made in the name of Germany. The BRD was the "evil" one where all the Nazis were. As such no serious debates ever took place and the fallout is visible today.


nibbler666

This is a misleading comment because the general open public discussion in West Germany starting from the 1960s did the trick in the end and the remaining Nazis couldn't do much harm and had to adapt (and learn). In the East the attitudes of the general population were swept under the carpet because they just declared themselves "Nazi-free". As a consequence people never critically examined the past in the way this happened in the West.


VALUABLEDISCOURSE

lmfao what the fuck are you on


MikeRoss95

How?


tallandlanky

Germany owns up. Japan pleads the 5th.


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CompetitiveTraining9

yea it's hard to take Japan's apologies seriously when high ranking officials, including the previous PM Abe himself, visit Yasakuni Shrine on the regular


nealius

Yasukuni is the equivalent of Arlington National Cemetery. In fairness it would be “cleaner” if the war criminals were interred elsewhere.


Zyx-Wvu

To be fair, Yasukuni Shrine memorializes not just ww2 soldiers, but historically even soldiers from previous conflicts dating back to the Bakumatsu. Its like a US president visiting the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier.


oretoh

Indeed one is overly apologetic the other is under apologetic.


ionian-hunter

Bruh the comments went “instant chaos” today


GeorgeEBHastings

I genuinely wonder if this comment section would be what it is right now if Merkel had honoured Holocaust victims at, say, the Washington DC Holocaust Museum instead of Yad Vashem. Like, the only reason this is flaired as "Israel/Palestine" is because the event took place in Israel. But the story has nothing to do with it. But here we go again with the minimizing of a culture's existential and generational trauma though a significant plurality of that culture has nothing to do with the country discussed in the story.


autotldr

This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/world/germanys-merkel-kicks-off-final-official-visit-israel-2021-10-10/) reduced by 68%. (I'm a bot) ***** > JERUSALEM, Oct 10 - Outgoing German Chancellor Angela Merkel stood on Sunday in Jerusalem with her head bowed over the buried ashes of Jews killed in Nazi death camps, and pledged Germany would preserve a post-Holocaust commitment to Israel's security. > Commenting on what Israel sees as an issue crucial to its security, Merkel said the coming weeks would be decisive for the future of a nuclear deal with Iran. > Germany has been a leading postwar European ally of Israel and Merkel has sought to cultivate security and economic ties, though she has differed with Israel on policies concerning the Palestinians and Iran."I want to use this opportunity to emphasise that the topic of Israel's security will always be of central importance and a central topic of every German government," she told Bennett at a private meeting, according to a transcript issued by his office. ***** [**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/q5atim/merkel_honours_holocaust_victims_vows_german/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~602829 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM's and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Merkel**^#1 **Israel**^#2 **Bennett**^#3 **Germany**^#4 **security**^#5


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NineteenSkylines

Not singling out Israel specifically, but the West really needs to look at how often it has supported illiberal regimes abroad while claiming to promote liberalism at home (and sometimes even imply that it is smugly better than "the third world.") [Here's another example](http://www.japansubculture.com/how-the-cia-helped-put-the-yakuza-and-the-ldp-in-power/) of a non-Western country that has been screwed over by Western hypocrisy.


ajaxtipto03

You don't even have to look outside of Europe. The West acted like Francoist Spain and Estado Novo Portugal didn't exist for decades.


BubbaTee

You don't even have to look at other countries. Postwar Germany was run by Nazis. Not neo-Nazis or tinpot fascists or garden variety racists - literal Nazi Party members. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Globke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_Georg_Kiesinger https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Scheel


Mythosaurus

The USSR regularly featured that dichotomy in its propaganda, pointing out how colonial powers would never treat Africans and Asians like equals. A favorite target was the US treatment of black citizens, and US Presidents constantly struggled against conservative politicians to make the reality match the rhetoric. Just yesterday I was reading about how Brown v. Board was settled in favor of the plaintiffs to counter Soviet propaganda https://www.reuters.com/article/idUS408043084620140514 > The Truman administration’s brief was highly unusual because of its heavy emphasis on foreign-policy considerations in a case ostensibly about domestic issues. Of the seven pages covering “the interest of the United States,” five focused on the way school segregation hurt the United States in the Cold War competition for the friendship and allegiance of non-white peoples in countries then gaining independence from colonial rule. Kinda sobering to realize that a lot of civil rights progress was due to the US being shamed on the international stage. Says a lot about what tactics current civil rights movements need to adopt...


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vodkaandponies

>Since when is a democracy with multi ethnic people on the government, legislative government body and in the Supreme Court a fascist ethno state? Since American middle-class teenagers started using "fascist" to describe everything they don't agree with.


chyko9

Bingo.


ggwpbob

Tell me you know nothing of Israel or the middle east without telling me you know nothing of Israel or the middle east


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Enjolras55

This sub is so stupid when it comes to Israel. Bunch of Antisemitic idiots covering their hate in "I just hate Israel!" garbage without knowing the first thing about what's going on over there or the history of the conflict.


amishcatholic

Anti-Zionism is the new and hip face of old-fashioned antisemitism.


Optimistirix

Maybe if they didn't operate an active Apartheid things would be different...


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vodkaandponies

I'd believe that if they didn't also scream for the destruction of Israel. Reddit calls out China all the time over their treatment of minorities, but no one ever says China doesn't have a right to exist.


Wiskos

>hundreds of thousands of normal civilians being displaced. [you mean those?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries) or you only care about the non Jews?


BubbaTee

They only care when the Jews do it. No one cares about these Palestinians: > From March to September 1991, about **200,000 Palestinians were expelled from the emirate in a systematic campaign of terror**, violence, and economic pressure while **another 200,000 who fled during the Iraqi occupation were denied return.** By September 1991, Kuwait's Palestinian community had dwindled to some 20,000. > Yet while this expulsion was near the order of magnitude of the Palestinian 1948 flight (estimated by the Israeli government at 550,000-600,000 and by the Arab League at 700,000),[2] driving PLO chairman **Yasser Arafat to declare that "what Kuwait did to the Palestinian people is worse than what has been done by Israel to Palestinians in the occupied territories,"**[3] it was largely ignored by the international community with neither the U.N. Security Council nor the General Assembly doing anything to assist the newly displaced refugees and punish their ethnic cleanser. https://www.meforum.org/3391/kuwait-expels-palestinians Just like no one cares about these Palestinians: > Without citizenship, Palestinians in Lebanon **do not have Lebanese identity cards, which also entitles the holder to health, education and other government services**. To receive health, education and other social services, Palestinian refugees are obligated to live in the twelve refugee camps in Lebanon set up by UNRWA. According to Human Rights Watch, **Palestinian refugees in Lebanon live in "appalling social and economic conditions." Non-citizen Palestinians are also legally barred from owning property[7] and barred from entering a list of desirable occupations.[8]** https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians_in_Lebanon Just like no one cares about these Palestinians: > The Syrian Network for Human Rights (SNHR) reveals in its latest report released today that at least **3,196 Syrian Palestinians were killed by Syrian Regime forces, including 491 due to torture**, with 49 of those detained appearing in the ‘Caesar’ photos, between March 2011 and July 2020, noting that **at least 2,663 Syrian Palestinians are still detained or forcibly disappeared by the Syrian regime.** https://sn4hr.org/blog/2020/07/29/55316/


Enjolras55

And that's the problem. You don't understand the history of the land there, so you assume everything Israel has is a "land grab." Jews predate Palestinians in that region. In fact, from 135 AD until the 20th Century, Jews in that region were called Palestinians. And in case you weren't aware, there is a giant Mosque and Dome built on top of the 2500 year old Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. That proves that Arabs/Muslims took Judaism's most sacred building for themselves. Jews aren't even allowed to go there. Muslims ban them.


Kinderschlager

yes. open elections, multi-religious power blocks, respect for human rights, participation encouraged by women, and not having the literal death penalty for not following the one true religion. truly a fascist state. sure you didnt mean palastine?


TIT4N5

>> respect for human rights Lmao. That’s pretty funny. You should have a comedy show. Just not in Israel. They’d think you were being serious.


shavitush

convenient to always talk about israel and not about the many islamic countries in the middle east, which all of them are quite literally fascist ethno states but no one says a word because it's not jews Lol


knud

Who here is defending Saudi Arabia? What threads have you been reading with a horde of pro-saudi apologists defending the bombardment of Yemen? Please give a link to some of these threads.


lironi1111

"Fascism is when I don't like a country and ethno state is when the country is outside of NA" - every liberal/leftist NA redditor


HurricaneFloJo

An ethnostate is a state that favors one ethnic group through law and policy and discriminates through law and policy against other ethnic groups.


angry-mustache

All of the world except The Americas are Ethnostates by that definition.


HurricaneFloJo

How is Germany or the UK or France an ethnostate. Do they have a system of laws and policies that favor one ethnic group and discriminate against other ethnic groups?


angry-mustache

Jus Sanguis instead of Jus Soli, which is a form of grandfathering. Like most grandfathering citizenship rules, are designed to benefit the existing majority over minorities/immigrants. You can move to say, Spain, live there for years, but your children born in Spain will never be Spanish Citizens unless they go through the naturalization process.


RowdyRoddyRosenstein

That seems like a somewhat generalized definition. Systemic racism in the US discriminates against people of color, but few people would term the US an ethnostate. On the other hand, Armenia and Kosovo are pretty much explicit ethnostates, but aren't necessarily practicing systemic discrimination.


HurricaneFloJo

A nation state is formed around an ethnic group. An ethnostate discriminates against ethnic minorities. So Germany was formed out of German speaking principalities. It was a nation state. At times in history it was an ethnostate. But now it isn't an ethnostate. The U.S. once had laws that explicitly discriminated based on race. Now it doesnt. Systemic racism is a remnant that hasn't been successfully removed from the system. But the U.S. isn't designed to be discriminatory at the moment.


RowdyRoddyRosenstein

Hmm. I've never thought of it in that sense. I guess that raises an interesting question: since that definition makes nearly every Middle Eastern country an Arab ethnostate, does that justify the existence of say, a Turkish, Jewish or Kurdish ethnostate? I would say no, but I can certainly see the counterargument.


OrangeIsTheNewCunt

So it's a buzzword that has no meaning given that your description makes the US an "ethnostate". Got it.


HurricaneFloJo

The U.S. was an ethnostate although it has been steadily moving away from white supremacy for many years.


lironi1111

Just because a country is an ethno state it doesn't mean that it favors that ethnic group over other ethnic groups and descriminates against them, full equal rights are offered to all Israeli citizens regardless of their ethnicity, the only difference is that yes the symbols of said country represent one group but not the other but you can say that about pretty much every country


Wrecker013

Except in practice, they're not. In practice, Arabian-Israeli citizens are discriminated against. That is well-documented.


superfire444

So are minorities in the US... doesn't mean the US is a fascist ethno state. According to Israeli law every Israeli citizen has the same rights. Some political parties are even Arab.


Fujvgk

The third biggest Party is Arab if I recall correctly, not just some


liljackass

And they are part of the ruling government.


HurricaneFloJo

A nation state is a state that was formed out of national group. It's well documented that Israel, through law and policy, and throughout its history, both in Israel and in the Occupied Territories, favors Jews and discriminated against Palestinians.


lironi1111

I could also show you plenty of acts, decisions and policies that favor Palestinians and discriminate against Jews. Also, full equal rights are given to Arab citizens of Israel, non citizens are a different story and that is how it should be, because they are citizens of the PA


Floppy_Trombone

Its legal of israelis to kick palestinians out of their homes. Its illegal for a palestinian to own a weapon, but not an israeli. Killing a palestinian in israel is hardly a crime. A quote from their prime minister: Naftali Bennett: 'I've Killed Lots Of Arabs In My Life And There's No Problem With That' And why? Because im israeli and theyre palestinian. When your leaders are cool with people being killed for their ethnicity, id say youve got a fascist ethno state.


lironi1111

I like the part where you completely made up stuff because of your perceived notion of Israel.


Floppy_Trombone

Did he not say that? There are literally videos of palestinians being forced from their home. Very well documented cases of palestinians being shot with live rounds in peaceful protest


talgin2000

I tried to find info about the quote and there is no one video of him saying that, only a few people writing off a probably a fake quote. And I just checked and in 2013, Natalie himself said in a tweet that it was never said. If you can find me a video of him saying it, which you probably won't, and if he said that, people probably changed the word terrorists to "arabs" ( not all Arabs are terrorists ofc..)


lironi1111

I was talking about all of the bullshit you wrote about Israeli laws, you just make stuff up so you could justify your world view.


BillyJoeMac9095

Palestinian security forces in the West Bank are armed as are Hamas forces in Gaza. Arabs in Israel are subject to the same gun laws as other Israelis. The problem in Israel's Arab communities these days, however, is too many guns, not too few.


BenTziyyona

It's almost as if Merkel has a better grasp on what a fascist ethno-state is than you. Wonder why


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BarDavid123

It's almost like you don't even know what apartheid means


Floppy_Trombone

No but human rights watch does https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/07/19/israeli-apartheid-threshold-crossed


omega3111

Actually they don't. HRW is a self-declared anti-Israeli organization. Have a read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism\_of\_Human\_Rights\_Watch


Optimistirix

Doesn't, in one bit, alter the facts written in HRW report compiling the laws of Apartheid in East Jerusalem, Gaza, and West Bank. https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1386907709937750016 But keep on drumming your song, it's running out.


bootlegvader

Casualities occuring during an armed conflict between two states doesn't tell us that either are a fascist ethno state.


ToxicPolarBear

“An armed conflict between two states” is a pretty strange way to talk about a military power bombing an ethnic population they keep imprisoned in a ghetto.


highblacksky7

Recently the Hamas held a conference with their plans of a neonazi fascist Islamic state that destroys Israel and in which non-Muslims and Jews are enslaved and genocided. So yes that puts them in conflict with Israel.


ToxicPolarBear

The article was about 100 **civilians** being killed. Which is relatively routine for Israel. I don't give 2 shits about Hamas.


Enjolras55

Hamas leads Palestinians. You can't talk about this conflict without including Hamas. And Hamas just held a conference this week advocating for the genocide of all Jews.


ToxicPolarBear

Hamas has siezed military control of Gaza and doesn't allow elections. How does that do anything to justify killing civilians en masse?


Enjolras55

Hamas won the election in Gaza, that's why they're in power. And they have massive support in the West Bank, but the Palestinian Authority won't allow elections there because they know Hamas will win.


bootlegvader

Collateral damage is hardly unique to the Israeli-Palestine conflict.


ToxicPolarBear

Having more than 50% of the people who die from your attacks be civilians is not "collateral damage". It's also not justified when you have suffered literally 0 casualties.


BarDavid123

>Having more than 50% of the people who die from your attacks be civilians is not "collateral damage". Because they don't attack Gaza to kill Hamas terrorists? This isn't WW2, terrorists don't wait in isolated little rooms to make it easier for you to kill them all at once. Denying the use of human shields by Hamas is being willfully ignorant to the complexities of the conflict. > It's also not justified when you have suffered literally 0 casualties. Because Israel actually does everything possible to protect their civilians, unlike Hamas who does everything possible to put their own people in danger. Also that's not even true, several Israelis have died from the May events, so there's still something you can celebrate over.


bootlegvader

Got evidence that it was 50% of the people who die from your attacks be civilians? Seems like different organizations gave different estimates. Also Israel did suffer casualties during the May conflict.


highblacksky7

If it only it were that easy to ignore one side of the conflict to shape a world view that fits your narratives. For the people who live there they don’t have that luxury. Also Israel doesn’t have a problem with Arabs and Muslims. It has a problem with people against their existence. https://www.timesofisrael.com/from-western-wall-to-old-city-alleys-curious-israelis-embrace-bahraini-visitors/


Fujvgk

Think of hamas as the taliban. Sure, it is weaker than an army of a country, but it does not make them innocent or good


ToxicPolarBear

Hamas is not a state, nor is it Palestine or Gaza.


Enjolras55

Hamas is the leader of Gaza, and would be leader of the West Bank if the Palestinian Authority allowed elections.


ToxicPolarBear

Hamas is the one that doesn't allow elections.


Enjolras55

That's incorrect. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election >Legislative elections were held in the Palestinian territories on 25 January 2006 in order to elect the second Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC), the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority (PNA). **The result was a victory for Hamas, contesting under the list name of Change and Reform, which received 44.45% of the vote and won 74 of the 132 seats**, whilst the ruling Fatah received 41.43% of the vote and won just 45 seats.


Fujvgk

Neither are the taliban, but Afghanistan is under its rule. And Gaza is under hamas rule. Gaza is not a county, but it has its own laws, own government (that didn't held elections for who knows how much time). So I'm not sure that there is much of a point for you there.


ToxicPolarBear

The point is that Gazans are the ones that Israel is killing, not Hamas.


s_y_s_t_e_m_i_c_

What the hell happened to the comments section here?


TheTrueNotMe

All the antisemits left their holes to attack ones they saw the word Israel


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Intrepid_Method_

Which makes things awkward because you got to go back to Mandatory Palestine which of the British created in the early 1900s. It’s even more awkward when you consider at this time there existed indigenous Palestinian Arab Jews. Even today the majority of Israel’s Jewish population is Arab Jews.


databody

That is what no one understands but everyone should. Israel is actually a de-colonial project: it was created through the dissolution of a British colony and the return of an indigenous people to self-determination in their ancestral homeland.


s_y_s_t_e_m_i_c_

I also see commentators making gross generalizations about the Palestinian people and conflating them, as a monolith, with the statements of Hamas.


Enjolras55

Well, 75% of Palestinians do back Hamas.


s_y_s_t_e_m_i_c_

Sure, under that premise - it still does not logically follow that every single Palestinian agrees lock-step with everything Hamas says or does. The Palestinians are human beings, just like Israelis - and they are capable of holding more than one opinion simultaneously.


LtChicken

>The Palestinians are human beings, just like Israelis - and they are capable of holding more than one opinion simultaneously. Now if only redditors were capable of the same!


Enjolras55

>Sure, under that premise - it still does not logically follow that every single Palestinian agrees lock-step with everything Hamas says or does. I mean, it's one thing to have political differences. It's another thing to back a known terrorist group who vows to exterminate all Jews. What would you say if an American supported ISIS and they just claimed they're not in lockstep with everything ISIS does? >The Palestinians are human beings, just like Israelis - and they are capable of holding more than one opinion simultaneously. So how about they hold the view that terrorist groups like Hamas are bad, and they should elect a reasonable government? They know they're never going to negotiate with Israel as long as Hamas leads them.


s_y_s_t_e_m_i_c_

> It's another thing to back a known terrorist group who vows to exterminate all Jews. As I've said previously, we have exit poll data that explicitly contradicts this as a motivation. You're discussing the same point-of-contention with me in 2 different comment threads. Pick one. > if an American supported ISIS [As former POTUS Bill Clinton has said, **"\[the\] Palestinians are the least radicalized people in the Middle East."**](https://youtu.be/D4arxkC9QdA?t=91) They deserve better leadership, certainly - but they're not ISIS. And I think this kind of demonization is dangerous, given the constant violence that Palestinians are subjected to by the settlers and by the massive civilian death toll of Israeli military operations.


Enjolras55

All the Antisemitic edgelords decided to invade and pretend how much they care about Palestinians by attacking Israel. These people know nothing about that region, the conflict, or what's going on there. They just read garbage Hamas backed publications like Al Jazeera, and pretend they're experts. Ironic that people who criticize Israel love Palestinian terrorists.


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skofan

can politicians start seperating respect for the hardships of the jewish people, and collaboration with the state of israel soon please? coupling the two is making it near impossible to have a sober discussion about the actions of the state of israel, as it causes any criticism of the state's actions, to be seen as an attack on the jewish people.


Grantmepm

We'll probably see a decoupling of the two issues when antisemites stop using the criticism of the state of Israel as an avenue to attack the Jewish people.


2211abir

So when antisemites stop being antisemites, is that right?


Grantmepm

100%


HiHoJufro

>it causes any criticism of the state's actions, to be seen as an attack on the jewish people. It's funny in a way. I saw most of your comment and thought "they make an ok point," but I actually came to the opposite conclusion. Because I think the far more widespread issue, and the much more problematic one, is that it allows for the numerous antisemites to say they just have problems with Israeli policies, when the problem they mean is that a home for Jews exists.


Such_Newt_1374

That seems a little extreme to me. I mean, by that logic is it even possible to criticize the Israeli government for literally anything? Even something as banal as say, their tax policies? Or do they just get a pass on everthing, forever, until the end of time? Honestly I don't even think my goverment represents my own interests, so I really don't understand the logic in saying the Israeli government is representative of all Israelis, let alone the entire worldwide Jewish diaspora. I believe that Israel absolutely has a right to exist, and that it's people have a right to lead healthy, productive and fulfilling lives without the fear of being attacked. I also belive the same about Palestine. But lately it seems the Israeli government is only concerned the lives and livelyhoods of one of these groups at the expense of the other.


bootlegvader

> But lately it seems the Israeli government is only concerned the lives and livelyhoods of one of these groups at the expense of the other. Don't most governments prioritize their country and citizens over a hostile government? Does the Palestinian government value protecting Israeli lives to same degree as advancing Palestinian interests?


Such_Newt_1374

If we were only talking about Palestinians in the west bank and Gaza, the ones directly under the control of HAMAS, then you might have a point. Yet there are nearly 2 million Israeli citizens of Palestinan descent living in Israel and Israeli occupied territories at the moment (about 20% of the population), and they absolutly are not treated equally. They don't have the same freedom of movement as their Jewish Israeli counterparts, it's harder for them to buy property, or to fight it in court when their property is "reclaimed" by Jewish Israeli settlers. I'll remind you that Jerusalem is Israeli territory, and that all Palestinians living in Jerusalem are Israeli citizens (or at the very least permanent residents). And yet they are segregated from the rest of Jerusalem for "security reasons", often have to fight to keep their homes from being taken by "settlers", have to deal with regular checkpoints that Jewish citizens don't have to worry about, have much more limited access to government services (including police and fire departments) and they even have to get special registrations on their vehicles and aren't even allowed to drive on some roads (particularly in and around Jewish settlements). The Israeli government is very clearly making a distinction between its own citizens based on their ethnicity, rather than their citizenship. Seems kinda silly to give them the beneift of the doubt when it comes to their treatment of Palestinians in the west bank or gaza. I want to state again, for the record, that I'm not saying any of this shit is the fault or responsibility of Jewish people at large, or even Israeli citizens themselves. This is the result of a handful of politicians getting the crazies in their constituencies all worked up and fucking things up for everyone else. Edit: minor corrections and clarifications.


skofan

i see it the other way around, i dont think all jews should be held responsible for the acts of the state of israel.


HiHoJufro

Agreed. But I think most people that *do* hold all Jews responsible for Israel are already antisemites, and are just using Israel as an excuse in an attempt to get away with it.


Zucc_Boi_

Gotta love how the term "actions of the state" is so abundant about Israel, but non existent for others.


niyaoshenme

Crazy how Germany doesn't do the same for the victims of German genocide in Namibia. Instead they get to just suck it. No reparations for blacks, unlike the 8 billion marks already given as reparation to Israel, not including all the new "commitments". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide Between 24,000 and 100,000 Hereros, 10,000 Nama and an unknown number of San died in the genocide.[2][8][9][10][11][12][13] The first phase of the genocide was characterised by widespread death from starvation and dehydration, due to the prevention of the Herero from leaving the Namib desert by German forces. Once defeated, thousands of Hereros and Namas were imprisoned in concentration camps, where the majority died of diseases, abuse, and exhaustion.[14][15] In 1985, the United Nations' Whitaker Report classified the aftermath as an attempt to exterminate the Herero and Nama peoples of South West Africa, and therefore one of the earliest attempts at genocide in the 20th century. In 2004, the German government recognised and apologised for the events, but ruled out financial compensation for the victims' descendants.[16] In July 2015, the German government and the speaker of the Bundestag officially called the events a "genocide". However, it refused to consider reparations at that time.[17][18] Despite this, the last batch of skulls and other remains of slaughtered tribesmen which were taken to Germany to promote racial superiority were taken back to Namibia in 2018, with Petra Bosse-Huber, a German Protestant bishop, describing the event as "the first genocide of the 20th century".[19][20]


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Herero and Namaqua genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide)** >The Herero and Namaqua genocide or the Herero and Nama genocide was a campaign of ethnic extermination and collective punishment waged by the German Empire against the Herero (Ovaherero), the Nama, and the San in German South West Africa (now Namibia). It was the first genocide of the 20th century, occurring between 1904 and 1908. In January 1904, the Herero people, who were led by Samuel Maharero, and the Nama people, who were led by Captain Hendrik Witbooi, rebelled against German colonial rule. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


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Daxoss

I don't love how its worded as a commitment to a foreign state. If she was committed to inclusiveness and stamping out anti-semitism, that sounds a lot better in my book.


armchairKnights

politician does what politicans do best.


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Ld511

"surrounded themselves" like it isn't the holiest place on earth for jewish people long before islam existed and were legally allowed to form a country by the UN. Believing some is going to bomb the shit out of them like Israel hasn't been at war from the first day of its existence and has won every single war although being heavily outmanned


highblacksky7

OP claims to oppose murder by calling for the genocide in the millions.


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LinkedLists17

At what point in human history has any group that's been subjugated ever been consulted by their subjugators? This is how humans role. Acting like only specific humans would do something like this is the height of delusion. If you can't defend what's yours then there's a high chance it won't be yours for very long. At some point you have to face reality.


Pelaites

Imagine unironically thinking imperialism and neocolonialism is fine because that’s how it was a long time ago


LinkedLists17

Please show where I said it was fine.


JadaLovelace

> holiest place Irrelevant. Fairytales are a personal thing and should not affect others.


[deleted]

someone should tell all the muslim arabs surrounding Israël


Enjolras55

By definition, Israel is not apartheid, and Palestinians support genociding Jews.


knud

> Palestinians support genociding Jews. A little racist generalization there, fella. You probably should look up Netanyahu's old coalition partners and see some extreme stuff mirrored from the Israeli side.


shavitush

not a racist generalization. hamas is the the elected party in gaza, the most popular one in the west bank and last week they held a conference calling for the genocide of all jews so yes, the people palestinians elected support genocide of jews, therefore the palestinians do and they take responsibility i keep seeing people demonize the israeli population for whatever bennett does even though he had one of the lowest vote counts. i'd say "i wonder why the double standard" but the reason is obvious


KeyYogurtcloset9564

Nah he only accepts new information from his r/Israel echo chamber


TIT4N5

>>By definition, Israel is not apartheid Weird, never knew Israel was the antonym of Apartheid. Weird how all the notable names in the fight against apartheid in South Africa side with the Palestinians? And describe similarities between Israeli policies and the South African apartheid. Desmond Tutu himself: >> "I am especially urging the Assembly to adopt the overture naming Israel as an apartheid state through its domestic policies and maintenance of the occupation, and the overture calling for divestment of certain companies that contribute to the occupation of the Palestinian people," Tutu wrote in an article published in Huffington Post. Even Mandela’s grandson likens apartheid to Israel’s actions. Hell, even the architect of apartheid in South Africa (Hendrik Verwoerd) called Israel hypocritical for accusing them of apartheid, and compared the two countries.


TheGazelle

So let's break that quote down. It's an apartheid based on two things: * Domestic policies. Which ones? In what way are Israeli citizens of Palestinian descent treated any differently by the law? * Maintenance of occupation. How does this make it an apartheid? South Africa stripped its own citizens of citizenship and forcibly moved them into camps. Do you know who fits that bill when examining Palestinian history? *Jordan*. They stripped Palestinians of Jordanian citizenship after ceding the west bank to Israel. Even then, Israel is maintaining the occupation because the land under occupation still has hostile actors within it that regularly attack Israel, and the governing bodies of that land (one of which officially rejects any outcome they involves Jews being in control of their own nation) have continually refused peace negotiations.


Fujvgk

"When peace comes we will perhaps in time be able to forgive the Arabs for killing our sons, but it will be harder for us to forgive them for having forced us to kill their sons" Israel (former) PM golda meir. I don't think this is a quote of someone that is thrilled for fight


tophatmcgees

This has very “stop making me hit you” bully vibes


Fujvgk

lol, not at all.


tophatmcgees

Literally said “stop making me kill you” It sounds like a comical genocidal Disney villain


Fujvgk

Read again, especially what she compares it to. I don't know where you are from, and you probably never experienced war, but saying that the death of your own people, might be forgiven with time, but not the killing of others you are forced to do due to war, is extremely powerful. It has nothing to do with "stop making me kill you" as it start with "when peace comes"


TheGazelle

Might help if you did a bit of reading into Israel's history, even the history of the Zionist movement itself. Literally all they've ever wanted is a place to call their own where they can be left alone. Jews have been mistreated, attacked, etc. literally every place they've tried to settle. With Israel, they finally got a place to call their own. They don't *want* to keep fighting, but their neighbors, for decades (and in some cases ongoing), abjectly refuse to even acknowledge them. Barring corrupt fuckheads like netanyahu, if the rest of the middle east actually made credible statements that they'd leave Israel alone, Israel would be thrilled. Just look at the nations that *have* made peace. They have trade relations with Israel. Egypt has security cooperation with regards to Gaza. And go figure, *Israel hasn't attacked anyone they've made peace with*.


NineteenSkylines

Powerful regimes have a very, very long history of making allies that don't live up to their own standards. This is not at all atypical for a "Western democracy."


imnotmrrobot

Sorry about that genocide. Here’s some material support for your current genocide.


wil3k

Strange genocide. The Palestinian population has quadrupled since Isreal exists and the average living standard is higher than in the neighbouring Arab states. Seems like Egypt and especially Syria are more successful at "genociding" their populations...


TheTrueNotMe

Palestinian genocide? Come on, stop with all of this fake news The Palestinian population had been growing steadily, in faster rates than most countries If it's a genocide, it's the worse one ever


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Alt_Fault_Wine

I guess Palestine can go fuck itself. Thanks Germany! Stay classy!


talgin2000

Why would anything change when the Palestinians leaders aka hamas aka money and power grabbers doesn't want peace nor any agreements? How can someone help them when they can't help themselves?


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antisocially_awkward

Hamas also was supported by israel in the 90s


bootlegvader

No, it wasn't. A charity that later grew into Hamas was supported when it still wasn't militant. When it became militant Israel stopped supporting it.


antisocially_awkward

Incorrect https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/


bootlegvader

They supported an Islamic Charity that wasn't violent at the time in opposition to violent PLO.


talgin2000

Hamas recognition of Israel as a state? Are you high? And Hamas never agreed to any peace deal - a few times already lol But I agree that the extreme jews (the settlers) are part of the problem - Same as the extreme radical regime from the Palestinians side (hamas and a few more no names).


knud

Their charter accepts 1967 borders for Palestine. No Israeli government does that. Israel has the upper hand in this conflict now and should be pushed to the negotiation table by the international community. I don't think nostalgic ideas of a greater Israel or Palestine based on religious arguments are good for either side.


bootlegvader

Hamas will accept them as a temporary border. Moreover, a losing power trying to negotiate back to a position before they lost is hardly the same as expecting the winning power to negotiate the loss of territory to back before they won.


Shady-Turret

Stop equating all of Palestine with gaza. Hamas is not the leadership of Palestine. You sound like a moron.


talgin2000

Today that are many Palestinians who doesn't agree with Hamas - and I didn't mean to include all Palestinians in the sentence. And IMO, if the Palestinians wants any peace deal or a country of their own, they need to take down Hamas themselves in order to create democracy among themselves.


vodkaandponies

They were literally elected.


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Pelaites

Equal rights for everyone…. Unless you’re living where our ancestors have lived thousands of years ago and now we’ve decided that it’s ours again for some reason, bye bye


NineteenSkylines

[Part of a very, very long history of Western regimes supporting tyranny and militarism abroad while patting themselves on the back for being "civilised."](http://home.iprimus.com.au/korob/fdtcards/Dictators_Home.html) To quote Gandhi, Western civilization would be a good idea if it was faithfully executed.


JulioGuap

>Western civilization would be a good idea if it worked


Alt_Fault_Wine

Well it does work as long as we can freely help ourselves to other people's stuff, doesn't it?


Alt_Fault_Wine

>[When more than 100 US enterprises withdrew from South Africa in mid-1987, West German companies expanded their trade and investments in South Africa.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany%E2%80%93South_Africa_relations) TIL, Germany is worse than shit.


WikiSummarizerBot

**[Germany–South Africa relations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany–South_Africa_relations)** >Germany–South Africa relations refers to current and historical relationship between Germany and South Africa. South Africa has an embassy in Berlin and a consulate in Munich. Germany has an embassy in Pretoria and a consulate in Cape Town. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/worldnews/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)


BillyJoeMac9095

So would Ghandi's philosophy, in India or elsewhere.


Ilikechocolateabit

Which bit? The raping young girls or the horrific racism towards africans? Or are we doing the reddit thing where we pretend he was a saint?


Kinderschlager

and watch the haters crawl out of the woodwork in this should it gain traction


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dglater

Really cool to see how much Merkel is loved in Israel.


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Chk232

I guess a lot of people got banned for voicing on the ongoing invasion


TheTrueNotMe

Ongoing invasion of where?