T O P

I support everything this flag stands for, but it is an objectively ugly design.

I support everything this flag stands for, but it is an objectively ugly design.

japed

Many people have reported this post, for a range of reasons. Many of them completely irrelevant. For what it's worth, we usually ask people to keep opinions out of post titles altogether. There are probably better ways to make it clear that a debate about the ugliness of this flag is on-topic in this sub, and a debate about supporting its meaning is not. (Having said that, vexillology is about a whole lot more than how good looking flag designs are, and personally, I'd say it shouldn't have room for the notion of "objectively ugly".) Some people also drew attention to the fact that the post has a attracted a lot of comments from people who object to the very idea of a flag like this at all, which at best shows a very narrow take on what flags are for, and at worst is an excuse for racism, etc. I think these sorts of attitudes are why posts about this flag with more neutral titles have often been downvoted to oblivion. All in all, I think it's best to leave this up and hopefully give more people the chance to learn in the comments about the reasons why people felt the need for a flag with a message like this and how it is used. (Remember that the message intended by the flag wavers is often more important than the theory of the symbolism.) We've cleared out some of the low-effort and off-topic (not flag related) comments - hopefully that helps the discussion, but I can't promise we've done it perfectly. Please keep your own comments on-topic and civil!


Arturino_Burachelini

It's like a pride month flag of a Czeck ice cream parlour...


coughingfrog

Czech?


umbrajoke

Czech mate.


CzechMate9104

You call?


czechtheboxes

Username Czechs out


CzechMate9104

Username Czechs out


comicclub1089

r/beetlejuicing


That-Clone-Sergeant

It is in the exact format of the Czech flag


coughingfrog

No I was talking about the spelling


tantalor

Forgot to use spell czeck


Poltras

I hope he paid his rent using czeque.


RowThree

Cheque mate asshole!


uf-ohno

Czech please


Trimungasoid

Czech yourself before you rech yourself.


uf-ohno

I play chess not Czechers


Lorenzum

The original commenter spelled it Czec**k**


Boris_the_Giant

He should have czeched the spelling before posting amirite?


Lorenzum

Yemen


malevolentblob

Oman, that sucks when you forget to check spelling


Lorenzum

Yeah, it israeli annoying


string_of_random

Stripey rainbow czech flag, and i feel it kinda represents the t in lgbtqia+ more than the rest


PootisdoX_Trilogy

What are the black and brown colours for?


theHamJam

Black is for those died during the AIDS epidemic. Brown is for queer people of color. Both to honor the trans women of color who started Pride and to include LGBTQ+ who face racial discrimination even from within the queer community.


Mental_Cartoonist896

Neat I thought it was just black and brown people


Dustin_00

Neat... but now I'm more sad when I look at it. :-(


Mesa17

Don't get me wrong, I understand that this flag is trying to be inclusive (And I appreciate that) but... The idea of a simple rainbow (Such as the one on the original flag) is that the rainbow includes all colors on the spectrum if ya know what I mean


MuckingFagical

Isn't it intended to represent diversity of minorities but originally the colours meanings were nouns like "spirit" not pronouns. I thought, without specific groups it helped to avoid the problem that a flag has finite space. It's like making an infinity symbol flag then putting *also 4 5 6 7 on it Or like it could be like a premiere league flag with a Manchester symbol on it which seems to make morse sense in that context. but don't get me wrong it's just a flag you can customize/wave whatever you want.


Anarcho_Christian

>It's like making an infinity symbol flag then putting \*also 4 5 6 7 on it I could never vocalize why it bothered me. As cringe as it is to see rainbow capitalism and rainbow government, this flag seemed particularly off-putting. I'd never want to see violence done to any of the people represented, but the chevron at the left seemed at best to be a grift, and at worst to be extortion of a separate movement trying to be its own thing. Your infinity sign metaphor is the perfect way to describe it.


openmindedskeptic

Yeah and it’s an international symbol too. Not to take away from the credit due to black activists, but what about other races? The purpose of the flag was not supposed to represent one type of nationality, religion, race, or even type of sexuality over another but rather be inclusive of all spectrums of queerness.


Odddsock

I’ve actually heard multiple meanings of what the brown and black stripe represent.I always thought it was related to the HIV crisis in the 80’s and 90’s because that’s what I’ve always been told but now I’m confused.


Novosell

imo that's a rather weird inclusion into a global symbol for queer people. the HIV crisis, as it relates to queer culture, is quite US centric. Are we gonna start adding a stripe for every specific incident of LGBTQ+ oppression from every country? There is no stripe for gay people getting murdered or imprisoned in other countries.


kevingharvey

HIV/AIDS is a pandemic. It's not US centric. There are 38 million people in the world with this disease. 1.2 million are in the US. Just don't want anyone who isn't in the US seeing your comment and underestimating their risks.


JestemKioskiem

In most countries on Earth, you're just as likely to die of HIV if you're heterosexual. HIV being an LGBT issue **is** an US issue.


Odddsock

I just said I wasn’t sure what it meant,I never said I was for or against it or anything.And honestly I would expect it to be US centric since it’s made by an American,which isn’t ideal but as a European I’ve just sorta gotten used to it honestly.


Clashlad

I really doubt it's related to the HIV crisis. I'm not sure LGBT people would want such an awful reminder on their flag.


Mal5341

Yeah that's always been my problem. I remember when they first introduced the Philadelphia version with the black and brown stripes, and a friend of mine who is African American said how insulting it was to him. In his words "I thought I was already a part of this community, but I guess they never thought so"


monarchsbae

And for the non-black/brown minorities, we’re not worth including on the flag. Big “fuck you” to queer people like me (EAsian).


jikkler

> The idea of a simple rainbow is that the rainbow includes all colors on the spectrum That's a common misconception, actually. That meaning has been ascribed to the flag, but is not (to my knowledge) in any way connected to the original symbolism When Baker designed the rainbow flag, he chose the rainbow because of its association with the concept of peace by way of Hippie culture and the [World Peace Flag](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/Peace_Congress_flag.svg/1280px-Peace_Congress_flag.svg.png). There's also speculation that he derived some degree of inspiration by the [Flag of All Races](https://www.crwflags.com/fotw/images/i/int-wpa.gif) (also prevalent among peace activists), which itself took clear inspiration from the Chinese [Five Races](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/ff/Flag_of_China_%281912%E2%80%931928%29.svg/255px-Flag_of_China_%281912%E2%80%931928%29.svg.png) flag. It also served as an allusion to Judy Garland's *Somewhere Over The Rainbow*. Every stripe was originally meant to represent a particular aspect of Queer culture, or what Baker hoped Queer culture would become. Pink for sex, red for life, orange for healing, yellow for sunlight, green for nature, turquoise for magic/art, indigo for serenity, and violet for spirit. So the rainbow was never meant to be representative of the spectrum of visible light, nor serve as an allegory for the diversity of human beings. But a lot of people think it was, and I find that really interesting. Because it shows that the pride flag's symbolism can and will change over time, to better fit the needs of the community at the moment. There was a time when it was much more necessary to frame queerness as just another variation on the beautiful range of human diversity, and so it made sense to start thinking about the rainbow flag in that way. But today, when this is pretty much the default position in most developed countries, I think it's fair that some people are altering the flag and its symbolism once again in order to tackle another of the community's needs.


SuspiciouslyElven

This is why I like vexillology. Flags try to represent the community who made it, but then once popularized, the community looks up to the flag as the ideals their community should strive for. Made from the community, then becomes the community. Defined by beliefs, then defines the beliefs, then is re-defined by those beliefs.


[deleted]

This is the best answer but also the least satisfying haha


TheLegendDaddy27

Reality is often disappointing


mort96

"The flag contains all the colors of the rainbow to represent the full breadth of human diversity" is just so much better than "The flag represents sex, life, healing, sunlight, nature, magic, serenity and spirit". It's no wonder the former stuck even if the latter was intended.


jikkler

I mean, yes, but also like... don't you think that kind of falls apart when you think about it a little? Like, the rainbow flag has always been distinctly queer, right? It doesn't include straight people; nor should it. It's a flag made to represent a particular minority demographic, it is by definition *not* a symbol for everyone. The whole allegory kind of just stops working when you remember that. I think the disconnect in understanding of the rainbow as a symbol for everyone vs a symbol for queerness is, unintentionally, part of what helped queerness be mainstreamed. I think a lot of straight people were more willing to buy into Gay Lib when they could also believe the movement was somehow about them, as allies. Not a judgement, just an observation.


mort96

I mean, I think "Everyone should be accepted, regardless of their gender identity or sexuality" is a pretty fair characterization of the movement. It doesn't concern itself with cisgenderism or heterosexuality because those are already the societal "default", but in a weird mirror society where straight marriage just got legalized and homosexuality is the norm, "straight liberation" would certainly fall within the purview of the LGBTQ+ movement, right? I don't know, I suppose it makes sense to explicitly exclude cisgenderism and heterosexuality from the movement given the cultural context. But maybe that's not the job of the _flag_? I feel like it makes sense for the symbolism of the flag to be, "all gender identities and sexualities are valid", even though some identities and sexualities don't need to be championed by the movement. I won't claim to be "correct" on any of this, it's just some thoughts. I'm also a cisgender, largely heterosexual guy, so maybe I would feel different if I was actually personally affected by these things. I'm not trying to be the guy who responds to "black lives matter" with "all lives matter", but... maybe I am in this case and should reconsider. I don't know.


externautical

Nah you've definitely got the right idea, at the end of the day a flag doesn't need to completely explain it's meaning of what it represents. For what it's worth I've heard straight people go on for years about how The Gays™ stole the rainbow, so they're doing a fine job of excluding themselves.


LLs2000

A bit off topic here but we have this really happening with our national flag in Brazil. Our current president was elected in a big uprise of conservatism and reactionary movements as a counterpoint to, what americans would call, "liberal" ideas that had been gaining traction with past governments. And the president tries really hard to mask this ideas as the only existing form of nationalism. And his support groups just start to parade around with national flags and the National Soccer team's t-shirts to such an extend that they basicaly turned the national flag into the president flag. Now oposing parties and even some soccer have a hard time in trying to display the national flag or using the ou soccer team shirts withou feeling, looking and beeing labled as a racist anti-vaxxer.


Granite-M

I felt the exact same way about the United States flag, especially after 9/11. Aggressively displaying the flag became this hard line right wing thing, to the extent that I remember hearing a story about a guy who got the cops called on him because he asked for stamps that didn't have flags on them. It never really went away, but just within the last few years I've been putting in effort to associate the flag not just with a particular political position, but rather with loving America and wanting America to do well, *especially* in the context of America needing to change, grow, and account for its failures and mistakes. Symbols matter, and I think it's important to not abandon a symbol just because it's being grabbed by people you don't agree with.


ricardoconqueso

It matters not what the intent was. We all take the rainbow to mean unlimited diversity.


Jbtyu5

By trying to include black and brown people it's excluding all minorities that don't consider themselves black or brown (Asians and native Americans specifically)


zwirlo

Tbh I thought the purpose of the standard rainbow flag was to capture all sexualities and sexual identities anyway, hence the rainbow. It doesn’t just mean homosexual but all of LGBTQ+.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Jiquero

The annoying thing about redundancy is that repeating the same things again is just redundant.


AICPAncake

Just thank your god you’ve never had to talk to someone from the department of redundancy department


GreensGetMoreThread

I definitely have and let me tell you how frustrating it is because I definitely have.


spacehog1985

I mean the thing about redundancy is that the ridiculousness of it is ridiculous.


ChayofBarrel

Well the thing is, a lot of people (sadly) fly the rainbow flag and *don't* mean some of those things. For me at least, while it's reassuring to see the rainbow flag, it's even more reassuring to see the... idk, progress flag? Whatever this one would be called. Although I agree, it feels very visually busy and the colors kinda clash


Candyvanmanstan

Similar to how some people *only* care about LG, so people make efforts to mention as many letters as possible to not exclude anyone. Like LGBTQQIP2SAA. Giving rise to the current movement of reclaiming "Queer" community to encapsulate everyone.


ph4mp573r

There's a shockingly high number of LG people who think B doesn't exist and hate T.


Boris_the_Giant

There are too many people who claim to be 'live and let live' and go around caring immensely about other peoples sexuality. Also, it might be that I'm getting old, but is sexuality and sexual orientation really given too much importance? Like whats the difference between bi people and pan people? And is that difference enough to spend time thinking about it?


nerf_herder1986

It's been explained to me that for pansexuals, gender plays little to no factor in who they're attracted to, whereas bisexuals can be attracted to all genders just like pansexuals but will have a preference between them. For example, I'm attracted to all genders but have a slight sexual preference and a strong romantic preference toward women, so I consider myself bisexual. Labels are kinda bullshit, anyway 🤷‍♂️


ask_me_about_cats

There’s a distinction, but it’s a fairly small one. I think the younger generation likes to have terms to refer to rather specific orientations and identities. That said, I don’t think anyone expects you to know what demi-gendered means, for example. They just ask that you be respectful of their identity.


My_BFF_Gilgamesh

Thanks. That's simple.


icantbeme

"You're bisexual you have twice the options!" No... I get turned down by gay people who think I am secretly straight and straight people for being secretly gay and/or a whore.


YouJustDontQuitCiv

Or you're a desperate straight only pretending to be bi so you can emotionally and sexually abuse the same gender for your own satisfaction. You're a nympho who is addicted to the touch of flesh, which is why you "play both sides" so you can feed your urges. You're not faithful because being bisexual means you can't live with one or the other; you're eventually going to cheat and fuck around because your attraction to the other genitalia is going to be too intense to ignore. Or, or, or, or.... Feel as if I've gotten so much more hate and stereotyping by people who insist they're "allies" and "supporters" than from people who dislike people who aren't of normative sexuality/identity.


icantbeme

I am a nympho though, but its not because Im bi.


OcelotLovesSnake420

I fucking love the word 'queer', I'm really rooting for this movement.


FirstTimeWang

I'm not but only because of my shithead Boston cousins who call everything "wicked quee-ah".


OcelotLovesSnake420

Shitheads ruin everything, I'm sorry. My half-brother uses the actual, factual n-word as his go-to descriptor for any black person, so I know from shitty family.


You_All_Irritate_Me

If you change to a new flag every time some asshole misuses yours, you're going to change that flag every hour on the hour. America would be on its billionth flag design by now.


theHamJam

Progress or Intersectional flag are what I've seen it called. And yeah, I agree that it's nice to see. Let's me know that at least whoever is waving the flag ain't a bloody terf.


TheMegaBunce

True that but I think the separation creates a sense of redundancy that actually detracts from the original. It comes of as if the trans community were not included within the first flag anyway, taking away from the original. Not to mention the new intersex addition. But hey it least it shows they aren't transphobes or racists so i guess it has utility.


croissantowl

I think it's a needed redundancy since some folks actively try to exclude certain people from the rainbow, e.g bi-erasure or TERFs (while TERFs are not implicitly or explicitly part of LGBTQIA+ I took them as an example here because for all I know they pretty much only direct their exclusion against trans people. But please feel free to correct me here)


Q1189998819991197253

Asexuals and bisexuals would have their own portion of the flag then but they don't.


Frognificent

Other acts of exclusion also include bisexuals who are in hetero relationships, see: my wife and I. Both of us super bi, but have often heard “yeah but you’re straight married so you don’t count”. The fuck’s that even mean? It’s seriously such “you’re one of the good ones” or “honorary white” energy I can’t even begin to comprehend. Granted I’m well aware it’s way easier for me to pretend to be straight guy than it is for someone to pretend to be white, I’m in no way saying I’ve got it harder, or even similarly as difficult. It’s just a similar mentality of exclusion.


croissantowl

damn, i actually forgot that this is also a thing. It really confuses me when such sentiments are expressed, either by hetero and lgbtqia+ folks. Like, you didn't want to be pressed into a category you didn't want to be in, now don't do that to others. But I also experienced this with an ex girlfriend of mine who was bi and actually came out of a relationship with another women before we met and a few friends or acquaintances said more or less the same thing.


HallucinatesSJWs

> damn, i actually forgot that this is also a thing. Bi-erasure so effective it erased bi-erasure.


croissantowl

less bi-erasure than that I didn't hear much about such cases/situations in a good while. I think I saw it more often last year. But then again I don't really frequent lgbtqia+ sub reddits so much more likely a bias on my part.


Chav_Cuntenstein_III

People aren't immune from being bigoted, even when they've suffered from bigotry. Sometimes I think it gets worse the more people get hated on.


Gabeness

Yea no one really talks about biphobia, it’s like a taboo thing that hasn’t been touched on professionally like homophobia ever since it started in the 80s. It’s so strange because you get it from both sides. I dated a guy who was gay and he would constantly give me shit about being bi, his friends too, and they’d say stuff like “just be gay, you’re dating a dude,” or “you can’t be bi you haven’t slept with a chick”. It really sucked ngl.


jajohnja

What's the difference? If someone wants to fly a flag without meaning it, they can just find the newest one. So uh, I'm confused.


Cyborg_XD

We're all unique, which is what the original flag stands for by encompassing all colors of the rainbow. If they add more stripes and colors to represent more specific people, I feel like in the end, it'll just be a flag of 7 billion dots representing each person individually.


J_GamerMapping

If anyone made a flag with 7 billion dots of varying colours, that would be fairly impressive However, if the flag isn't huge it'll probably become a brown or greyish mess


NathanMcDuck

Which in turn would nicely show that on the grand scale of things we are all insignificant blips.


Masterkid1230

You could just create a color wheel gradient with 7 billion pixels and there you go. Not brown or ugly. Just a regular color wheel.


Swedneck

Which, in the end, is just a worse rainbow flag


FieraDeidad

Oh yeah. It's all coming toguether.


prefer-to-stay-anon

For 8 bit color, there are only 16 million possible colors, though. We would need to design it in 16 bit color to accommodate everyone.


Nuppusaurus

Just screenshot the color picker from Microsoft Paint.


japed

Flags don't only mean what they are intended to mean by the designer. They get meaning from how they are used. That is Vexillology 101. If a flag that's intended to be inclusive is used in contexts where people aren't so inclusive, then, at least in some circumstances, it doesn't serve that part of it's purpose. As a result people look to alter it, use a new flag, or do something else to emphasise that sort of inclusion. (Edit: keep in mind that the quoted reasons for developing these 'rainbow +' flags wasn't that the rainbow is only for gay males, but because POC and trans people were finding some communities in the LGBTQ+ movement were excluding them. It's not really about gay male v queer in general symbolism, although that's also a factor in how they get used.) Depending on how you feel about the original flag, and your design approach in general, you might prefer a separate flag or a less flag-focussed approach to modifying the basic flag. But simply dismissing this approach as 'redundant' (as many people responding to you have done) completely misses the message that this design is intended for. Yes, this design is complex both visually and thematically. Yes, it's relationship with the plain rainbow flag leads to all sorts of messiness around who uses what and exactly what each choice does or doesn't mean. But that sort of messiness is a pretty normal part of human communication, and if your vexillology can't deal with that, then it's inadequate vexillology.


cuuboid

Also why did they bring race into a sexuality flag. And moreover only 2 races (black and brown). It seems kinda exclusionary and I fail to see the point.


Tumblrrito

It was and still is. This so called “progress flag” actually takes the all inclusive rainbow symbol and turns it into one that is actually *less* inclusive. For example, by adding a brown and black stripe to symbolize those skin tones, you leave out East Asians, Native Americans, etc. I downright loathe this flag because it’s completely reductive and downright hideous.


GomezFigueroa

Fun fact: The original LGBT flag was designed by a civil rights activist named Gilbert Baker. When he performed in drag he went by the name Busty Ross.


thunderup_14

That is a fun fact! Thanks!


KwikSadik

Here is another fun fact: > The [original LGBT pride flag](https://reddit.com/r/vexillology/comments/nzys4y/gilbert_bakers_original_design_was_for_an_8color/) contained the colors hot pink, meant to represent sexuality, and turquoise, meant to represent magic or art, depending on the source. > Hot pink was removed from the original pride flag because fabric and dye in that color was difficult to find. Turquoise was removed to make the flag appear more symmetrical when hanging vertically. Source: https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20160615-the-history-of-the-rainbow-flag


Jugaimo

Genuinely good design changes


BlackPriestOfSatan

> Hot pink was removed from the original pride flag because fabric and dye in that color was difficult to find. Turquoise was removed to make the flag appear more symmetrical when hanging vertically. greatest fact(s) ever! thank you for sharing.


TheBirminghamBear

That's a fantastic drag name but I can't disentangle it from an image of David Schwimmer awkwardly walking down a runway in a corset while Joey and Chandler watch confused.


Benedict-Awesome

Could we BE anymore confused?


Triskellatri

I would like to subscribe to fab facts, please.


kdmd04

Czech flag but owned by unicorn


Chrislts

Like a unicorn vomited in a czech flag


constantlyhere100

I oppose everything about the Confederate flag - but objectively it is a very good design


TheSmex

Same with the Nazi flag. Great design but the ideology behind it has ruined the swastika for everyone that's not an asshole.


bluebackpackedbear

Nazis ruined some really cool runes for all of us too.


mountaintop-stainer

Yeah I’m Irish and Icelandic so both of my cultures’ major symbols are virtually unusable unless I want to look like a racist


DeadLink404

The imperial flags where much more swanky. I wish the nazi flags weren't illegal, because the neo nazis are using the imperial flags as replacement making them taboo too.


OmegaGeneral1

I think they’re only illegal in Germany, it’s definitely not illegal here in the United States because it’ll go against [the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution](https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/amendment/amendment-i), and also in Germany neo-nazis use the old imperial flag as to be allowed in protests, also because the old imperial flag has the same colors as the nazi flag (Black, white, and red colors) Edit: for letting everyone know that I DON’T support any Nazis of any kind, all I was trying to do was laws may be different in other nations and all I care about the nazis is to let them see how STUPID they are! Edit 2: and if anyone wants to say if I’m mistaken, I don’t mind reading what you want to say and I do like learning from what other people think not just people who I’m familiar with, it does help to appreciate others and how they respond Edit 3: The flag on this post (the pride flag above) does have a lot of symbolism, but to me it has too many colors but at least people like the flag and that’s find by me


Serylt

A lot of countries, esp. in Europe, have outlawed swastikas and Nazi symbolism. It’s not only limited to Germany. What Germany recently did is prohibit the showing of the Reichskriegsflagge as well and other derivatives in public. (So, no Black-White-Red for them anymore.)


OmegaGeneral1

I like new info, thank you!


nizzy2k11

Localization of media in Europe is always very strained by the languages alone but the laws around Nazi imagery make it very hard to make content around WWII authentic. Video Games have to have lots of censors because of these laws and WWII is a very common theme in many different games. It seems more stifling than helpful to anyone wanting to make progress.


Yoshikusama

They used to be censored with regards to the symbolism, [but not anymore](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-45142651).


DeadLink404

The imperial flags are forbidden now too in parts of Germany, at least when used 'provocatively' whatever that means. I think Stgb § 86a is dumb, even though I understand why it's there. The idea of declaring organizations as unconstitutional is just weird.


MithranArkanere

It still maintains its meaning in many places in Asia. They are not as stupid as to complete ignore their cultural heritage because of some usurper. If I see a swastika graffiti on a wall, I'd rather see acts of reclaiming it like converting it into a colorful mandala with anti-hate symbology than having it painted over white. People need to stop giving up things and willingly handing them out to insane, misguided and evil people. Remember when they starting going around as if the ok symbol belonged to them after falling for a 4chan prank? That was absolutely absurd. What will be next thing that will be handed to them? The V peace sign? The peace symbol? The A of anarchy?


randomstrangerof

It's only the Nazi Swatiska (bold and brutalist) that is taboo-ed. In Asia, you can see the swastika everywhere but it has curves and dots and has a lot more personality. It's like Buddhist/Hindu symbol for prosperity or goodness in general.


japed

There are plenty of non-curved or dotted swastikas still used in parts of Asia (and by immigrant communities elsewhere)


randomstrangerof

Yeah. In a weird way, it gives me hope against "ruined it for everyone". You can never ruin anything for *everyone*. If the Nazis can't ruin the Swastika for everyone, no one else can ruin anything for everyone.


dobeye

Not sure I agree. The swastika is a beautiful symbol, but it feels kind of busy on the flag, maybe partly because it's not symmetrical.


Lolitas-Adore-Me

Neh, I think because it is rotated, it looks even better. Something about it looking as if it’s in motion. Somehow looks more imposing too.


ParodyIsParody

Which confederate flag?


RavingMalwaay

Personally, I think the flag of the CSA looks very good, but the battle flag is kind of ugly (especially in its rectangle form) but thats just my opinion. (Don't support anything to do with the flags though)


ParodyIsParody

The "Stars and Bars" looks quite nice and I actually like the battleflag but dear God the "Stainless Banner" and the "Blood Stained Banner" look God awful. But I wish we got more appreciation for the "Bonnie Blue".


RavingMalwaay

I mean yeah, its hard to like something thats literally just a white flag lol. Also, I didn't know about the bonnie blue flag so I looked it up. Very simplistic, but it's actually quite aesthetically pleasing.


ParodyIsParody

Interesting fact, the Bonnie Blue was actually originally the flag for the Republic of West Flordia not the CSA.


AccessTheMainframe

The Bonnie Blue flag is just over-cooked Somalia.


IdreamofFiji

Yeah, it's possible to objectively like a flag and dislike what it represents.


queen-of-carthage

The one that everyone immediately thinks of when someone says "Confederate flag"


AccessTheMainframe

the contemporary one


derpicface

I like the surrender flag


OndrejKosik

Well NSDAP flag was also a good design if you disassociate it from… you know… warcrimes…


trent58

Yep. The flag was commissioned to an agency for Philadelphia gay pride. And when asked if there was any input from the community for its design, they said they had one black employee. And I find it problematic the use saturated black and brown as skin colors on flags to represent groups of people. Adding black and brown to the rainbow makes think is a bank for leprechauns.


Rottenox

I don’t think the _design_ is bad. The colours just aren’t very complimentary.


[deleted]

I think the issue is they tried to add to an old flag. Most flags just are not made for that


maggotymoose

This is my feeling too. I really like the chevron as an arrow to mean progress swooshing through to show how far we’ve come.


The-Eastern-Reactor

As a member of what this flag stands for, I totally agree. I also don't understand the point of the chevron on the side of the new flag.


grumpy__pumpkin

Also a member and also totally agree. The point of the chevron though is that it's an arrow to symbolise moving forward, with the trans and black and brown colours to remind people that not only are these people included (since there are unfortunately many who would rather they weren't), but also that so much of the gay rights movement and acceptance people can enjoy today was directly influenced by black trans folk.


iHasMagyk

I’m trans MtF and I don’t really understand the purpose of adding the chevron. I get the “moving forward” symbolism, but that seems kinda unnecessary. I don’t understand the addition of the brown and black stripes since Pride has never been a race thing and has always included racial minorities. And the trans stripes seem pointless since they are encompassed in the spectrum of LGBT.


grumpy__pumpkin

The creator of this flag didn't ever mean it as a replacement, just another option for people to use that highlights certain issues.


bartonar

The trouble is that it's become the replacement, in that if you're not flying this one there'll be some people who'll accuse you of not supporting the causes in the chevron, being either a racist or a TERF.


SoupFromAfar

this is a bit of a stretch methinks


[deleted]

[удалено]


seanpeery

It's about 2 pixels above the green in the center of the black point, and 2 pixels back on the red vs the purple. Good eye.


LimpingWhale

Idk if you deserve a lifetime in prison or an award for pointing that out. Maybe both? Are all the flags like this or did they just happen to post one that’s completely unviewable?


IWANTCIDER

I personally think the rainbow one looks the best. Why can't it be the United flag of the the LGBTQ+?


ChayofBarrel

Short answer: It is, this is just an optional variant. Long answer: The rainbow flag has been coopted by a lot of people who don't support trans or black/brown people, and while it's still flown and seen as the main LGBTQIA+ flag, it's useful to have a variant specially meant to say "Don't worry, we're not one of those people/groups/etc. that discriminate against you."


StarryPlatypus

So this one is optional but if I fly the rainbow LGBT flag I could be considered racist transphobic and discriminatory?


monarchsbae

I’ve never heard of anyone getting flak for using the six-striped flag. If anyone does, they’re not worth listening to.


dobeye

Hot take: the true pride flag is Seychelles


bruhmoment576

It’s the black and brown bits. They don’t fit the colour scheme of the rest of the flag and it looks bad.


cenorexia

For me it's not even the colors it's more that it looks as if the colors in the triangle are "intruding", splitting the rainbow in the middle. I know that was never the intention but I can't help but see it that way. Like one of those ice breaker ships in the Arctic, seen from above.


Sinophilia

Yeah, I think the black and brown are too dark. It would look nicer if it used grey and beige.


VatroxPlays

The brown and black kinda ruin it Edit: This wasn't ment racist, I ment the colors on the flag


Double_A_92

Especially the brown.... The black actually would provide a nice contrast between the colors on both sides, and also be "symmetric" to the white on the left.


VatroxPlays

Oh yea, I see what you mean!


Swedneck

Now i want to see this with just the brown removed


GiveToothbrush

[https://imgur.com/a/O0lP72m](https://imgur.com/a/O0lP72m) just did this


RA12220

The rainbow flag itself is kinda boring anyways Wiphala flag is a rainbow flag that's far more interesting.


Ethra2k

I wish the brown was more red toned, especially in the Philadelphia version where the black and brown were at the top.


Maristine

LGBTQ pride 😁 11 colors 🤮


Ngfeigo14

Facts


grumpy__pumpkin

The creator of this flag never intended it to be a full replacement for the rainbow, just another option for people to specifically show their support for those who often face a lot of discrimination. But yes it's ugly.


Particular_Secret_23

Looks like a bad South African flag design.


ItKanBe-Sonice

The designer definitely had South Africa in his mind, you know the rainbow nation.


Phaedrus_

Yes they did. The creator of this flag works for a marketing agency and licenses out the flag. The original flag is in the public domain— this ugly, less representative one is making someone incredibly rich.


MachSpeedMatt

The trans and black triangle on the side dilute the meaning and simplicity of the original. Also how tf does the black and brown even matter on this flag?


JackDoesStuff420

Since When Was POC A Gender/Orientation?


alapleno

Why do you capitalize the first letter of every word?


txr23

They were sharing the title of their PHD submission for their gender studies course.


hoochyuchy

They're a capitalist.


Drewbacca

Oh my god they always do it


Chinaroos

Here's a wild idea--why not bring back Coats of Arms? There's four "collections" of identities being represented here--LGB, Transgender, Black, and Brown. This flag is trying to both include them and show them as being separate and distinct and while the goal is admirable, as a symbol it looks a bit...busy. Coats of Arms are basically personalized flags, why not bring them back? Have a few key colors and images to represent important concepts and let people make their own Arms using shared symbols. Beyond looking badass, I think that a coat of arms would be much harder to co-opt by unwanted 'identities' that I will not name, and I think there's a lot more flexibility in identity than what flags can offer.


seanpeery

Who gets to be the nobles though?


Necessary-Prize2300

The winner of Ru Paul's of course


Katlev010

Everyone


Donuts3d

I think it looks aggressive, like the colors on the left are trying to crush the rainbow


LincolnMagnus

Some thoughts: 1. Yep the flag is ugly 2. I'm part of the queer community (and a POC) and I don't really feel represented by the traditional rainbow flag. It feels like it's specifically associated with gay men, and includes the rest of us only secondarily. That's how I personally feel and if other people feel differently I can't tell them they're wrong, but the fact that this flag exists and has become so popular makes me suspect I'm not the only one who feels that way. 3. This flag is still ugly though like holy shit. Also, the way it's designed seems to kind of undercut its message a little, at least to me. It looks like queer POC/trans people are breaking into the rainbow from outside, like the Kool-Aid Man. I thought the point was supposed to be that we were always here. It's not like I've got a better design idea, though. 4. A lot of the comments on this post demonstrate the exact reasons why someone thought the black and brown stripes were necessary. I do recognize that there are parts of the world that may find this flag less relevant to their communities, but I don't think that's a reason this flag shouldn't exist. It's one symbol among many, and if it doesn't work for you, that's fine, but it's become really important to other people. 5. **So to sum up: this flag is ugly, I don't like it, and I've been using it in my Zoom background all month.**


tgthound

As fellow queer POc my thoughts were like original rainbow: nice The one that added just the brown stripe: The color kinda clashes but I get the point and at least it ain't crazy This: Seems more like a nice fabric/ quilt pattern than a reasonable flag. Also " It feels like it's specifically associated with gay men" Now this feels more like gay men + trans regardless of race. I am bi but if we wanna make this rep that, then its just more colors til we get every other pride flag in this one.


voluptuousshmutz

I very much so agree with \#4. This flag is fairly specific to America, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't exist. It's meant to be explicitly inclusive towards communities that are too often excluded from the LGBTQ+ community. There's a lot of All Lives Matter vibes in the comments on this post, which definitely shows that this flag is necessary.


Alfred_the_okay

One of the things I like about flags within the LGBT+ community is that they're democratic. Anyone can design one, or a variation on an existing design, and if it strikes a chord it will spread organically through the community. This design is a bit dubious, but I think it's been pretty cool to see the LGBT+ community organically adapt its symbolism to explicitly include marginalised PoC, those living with HIV, and trans people. It's living vexillology!


Debugga

That’s the term I’ve been missing. “Living Vexillology”. I saw a redesign that added the intersex flag to this version, and it was obviously too much/too busy. It forced the chevron over to more than 50% of the flag, which I feel is the “cutoff” for the progress flag. BUT! It was being used exactly as designed. The designer intended for those chevrons to change over time, as needed, to highlight specific communities.


EmpressNicolette

Black people gotta be one of my favorite sexualities


Empanser

Last time I commented this I got ratioed *hard*


ThailurCorp

The rainbow was supposed to represent how everyone is welcome and accepted no matter their differences, so I'm not really thrilled with adding to it in this way. It's been explained to me that it just helps more people feel included... People's feeling of inclusion matters more than the fact that they've misunderstood the original symbol that already included them, so I'm trying to be supportive.


[deleted]

well - yeah, the meaning is good - but the design just starts to look a bit... irritating i think it would be already easier on the eye if the black and brown bar were not combined with the pink and light blue in the same design element.


Flag_of_Tough_Love

I agree with all of this. We're vexillologists though, and from that point of view, this flag is a bit unfortunate. The pride family of flags is full of really good ones too. The one with a triangle on both sides is far worse than this one though.


GlebRyabov

So they took the originally pretty good LGBT flag, slapped FIVE more colors on it, and two of these have zero relation to LGBT. The flag sucks, really.


TRLGuy

THANK YOU !


Skyrowind

this thread has revealed to me that nobody in this sub knows what objectively means


Express_Opposite

This is three flags rolled into one. Makes sense that it's not attractive. Happy Pride!


LeoMarius

I agree. The original rainbow flag was designed to be inclusive and not represent any specific group. Adding stripes to represent different groups destroys the meaning of the rainbow. It was refined to 6 colors for aesthetics and to reflect the actual rainbow. The colors represent ideals like life, healing, serenity, nature, etc., not races or other groups of people.


RunInRunOn

Finally, someone said it! Bring back Pride Classic™


trailsetter

Lol, I came to this subreddit specifically to see what people here thought about it. It is god awful


Um_ironbanner12342

What does the Black and Brown stand for?


ChayofBarrel

Brown and black people. Mainly added to this variant because some people flying the rainbow flag were excluding those groups. It's an affirmation of support, basically.


Procure_the_Liquor

To be honest it looks like someone ate a whole pack of crayons and then took a shit on some paper


Dreaming-Gypsy

Yep. I'm very much a member of that community but I hate the new flag. The rainbow stands for inclusivity, the changes are unnecessary and SO ugly.


Sekh765

As an LGBT person, I'm glad we are finally recognizing that this design is redundant and ugly as sin. You can't go adding extra colors to a rainbow, and the original flag already encompassed T folks, and had nothing to do with skin color.


grzybekovy

I support the ideals, but I reject the idea – rainbow flag is the best, simpliest symbol of Pride, queer, of equality, of progress and resistance from oppression. The so-called progress flag is a byproduct of making pride flag the gay men or homosexuality symbol. Rainbow Pride flag includes trans people, pride flag can be a symbol for gender and race inequality fight.