T O P

Quora material

Quora material

flyingpig104

Everyone: Don’t confuse this bullshit with a positive doctor-patient relationship.


Archsys

The comments here are hella good, and I'm genuinely happy to see them. As someone who often attends my partners to the doctor because doctors are more likely to believe me than them (which is fucked up too), it's kinda fantastic to see that at least some people get it.


jasapper

Are doctors more likely to believe you because you're also a doctor or other medical professional, or is it a gender thing? If the latter then it is indeed fucked up *and* infuriating. I hate to be one of those armchair ethics experts but if I found myself in this situation I would be urging my partner to find another doctor.


mecrosis

Also, it's easy to rest on your experience as a seasoned professional against one person, but when you have two people telling you the same thing it's harder to just poo poo it away.


Jidaque

It could also be a gender thing: doctors that think that women are more whiny might ignore there complaints. Sometimes it's also difficult to explain your problems yourself and defend them. Someone else could make sure that you don't forget anything and assure the doctor that it's in fact that bad.


VallenGale

My last doctor did this. He thought everything was in my head because I’m female presenting and have been treated for post partum depression. And yes he actually said that to me which was the most infuriating.


scribblerzombie

It is the same for men at times, also. I finally convinced my doctor a year later that something was wrong. My tumor was 8 ounces by then.


Archsys

> I hate to be one of those armchair ethics experts but if I found myself in this situation I would be urging my partner to find another doctor. We've been through more than a few. And yes, it's gender/race. [it's actually pretty universal (studies in article)](https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/women-and-pain-disparities-in-experience-and-treatment-2017100912562), and there are reasons, even if those reasons themselves are problematic and they *are* getting better. For my BIPOC partners and friends, they also have to deal with being grilled for drug-seeking behaviour far more often, which is similarly infuriating. I've had one partner be asked if she's had any addiction issues, of the four I've supported, who's white, and four of the five BIPOC folk were asked similar questions, once being denied outright because he didn't believe her. None of them have any history with addictive drugs, and the one who was denied is actually a teetotaler, so certainly frustrating. Sure, these are limited stats/anecdotes, but they do follow the larger trend, and it's absolutely bullshit that they take *me* more seriously. And that I have to channel my inner "Kyle" and my knowledge of applicable equal care laws to get proper treatment... but hey, if I'm going to use my privilege I should certainly be using it for good. Much better than a nagging HOA-empowered Karen... We have good doctors for my polycule, but they only have so much space, and even though her office does refer good specialists, sometimes waiting 6 months for a good doctor to even look at you isn't really feasible...


Eclectix

> I would be urging my partner to find another doctor. The problem is if the doctor you're checking to replace them with gets wind, you will be labeled as one of those people who go from doctor to doctor until they find one who will give them the diagnosis they want, whether it's valid or not. But in reality it's more often people going from doctor to doctor looking for one who will actually believe them and take them seriously instead of dismissing them with a placebo and some patronizing snark about losing weight or something.


Nihil_esque

Absolutely. Doctors are not infallible and hell, I googled my symptoms and the first result that came up was my eventual diagnosis back in the "are you sure the severe pain that's preventing you from walking isn't just anxiety?" days. Ofc I just needed to find a better doctor and I did seek a diagnosis properly + with an open mind, but it really is exhausting when you have chronic pain to know that a doctor isn't giving you the care you need and have people respond with "well do you have a medical degree?"


BJntheRV

Fibromyalgia? Have been there. Have also been long enough on the diagnosed side to see doctors ignore every other issue and just blame it on the fibromyalgia. Oh, severe abdominal pain? It's probably just your fibromyalgia. Oh, can't move your arm without screaming? It's probably just fibromyalgia. Oh, and I also had to bring my own diagnosis in the first place after so many drs did the "we can't find anything wrong" routine.


Nihil_esque

Ankylosing spondylitis in my case. Honestly I'm kinda lucky because it's pretty easy to determine if mysterious aches and pains are caused by inflammation or not. And at over a year post-diagnosis, my illness is really well managed with medication now.


BJntheRV

That's awesome to hear.


ewanchukwilliam

How did u get your diagnosis? My physiotherapist suspects I have the same thing. I’m trying to find a family doctor that will help me look into it


Nihil_esque

The only people that can *really* diagnose/treat it are rheumatologists afaik. You'll probably need a referral from a GP, but a rheumatologist is the best person to look into it.


MissSwat

Oh this hits close to home. I've been living with chronic pain for 19 years and have changed doctors as I've moved. The last one I had was a man and his indifference and obviously hesitancy to continue my regular prescription was palpable. When he left the practice I got a new female doctor and during our meet and greet she was so goddamned amazing. She was inquisitive, positive, didn't shirk at the fact that I take opioids, etc. Before I left I outright thanked her for how at ease she made me feel talking about it and how much I appreciated being listened to about my pain.


Nihil_esque

You know, amusingly my "is your joint pain anxiety?" doctor was female and the two doctors that eventually listened to me and worked towards my diagnosis instead of refusing to do any tests were both male. Most of my good experiences with doctors have been with male doctors (except for my gynecologist, she's great). Bad experiences... It's pretty 50/50. It's fairly interesting to think about although I'm not sure gender has a lot to do with it.


MissSwat

I'm sure it doesn't really. I think I'm just bitter because my old doc decided to leave randomly and become a dermatologist with no warning and no plan. It was a weird situation that left a bitter taste in my mouth. I'm so glad you found docs that worked with you to find a diagnosis. I always found it so much more empowering when my doctor's included me in the process. It made me feel like I had a measure of control inspite of all the pain nonsense!


Apidium

I had a similar issue. When I was like 9 8 got my period. And it didn't stop. It took 6 weeks of constant niagra falls and multiple female doctors/nurses before I finally saw the coolest male doc on the fucking planet. He was the only one who didn't spout off some 'early periods can be off schedule' bullshit. By the time I saw him I could barely walk and was borderline anaemic. I was also exhausted because I had to change my pads every 3h day and night so I didn't get any real sleep. Those other doctors can fuck right off with their 'periods aren't always normal bullshit'


VOZ1

I’m a white cis male and have had to fight for doctors to recognize my symptoms. I didn’t have health insurance at the time and had been feeling just crummy for a couple months but couldn’t pin down what it was. Finally realized I’d been getting “hot flashes” in the evenings, I’d have a low temp and by morning it would be gone. It slowly progressed until I was doing research on symptoms and figured out I have a sinus infection—hit all the diagnostic markers for a mild/intermittent one, since the symptoms would come and go. When I went to a clinic, the doctor who saw me (after about 4-5 hrs in the waiting room feeling like absolute shit) said I have allergies (which I’d mentioned I have a history of). I calmly explained this is not like my allergies, then listed my symptoms—low fever coming and going, mild sinus headache (though occasionally it got real bad), post-nasal drip that tastes foul, congestion, major pressure in my head when I touched my toes…he resisted, I insisted, he eventually pulled out the diagnostic manual and got very quiet as he read the symptoms, then prescribed me my antibiotics (which I found later was a shockingly high dose for a simple sinus infection, almost giving me oral thrush). All in all a fun time, I cannot fathom having to go through that *every single time* I go to the doctor. That would definitely be traumatic. Edit to add: after the doc took my blood pressure (which was high), he wanted me to make an appointment with a cardiologist. I politely told him, “I’m sick, I haven’t eaten breakfast, and I’ve been sitting in your waiting room for 5 hrs. I don’t have high blood pressure. No thanks.” Also forgot to mention the doctor never introduced himself. Always lovely to be barely recognized as a fellow human.


kbean826

The problem I think most people fall into is how diagnosis works A LOT of the time. Many issues it takes dozens of tests and corroborated clinical findings to get right. One doctors visit ISNT going to get there. For some things, a single blood test might tel us you’re fine. But two or three shows us the patterns. Sometimes one set of symptoms masks another, or looks like a far more likely illness. It isn’t “I lived with it for 20 years!” That makes you, the patient, the expert. And it isn’t the 6 years of medical school that makes the doc the expert. It’s team work. Medicine is a fucking team sport, and the patients are an essential part of that team.


AnnaBananner82

THIS


0o_hm

There is actually a movement in modern medicine to both rehumanises the patient, rather than seeing them as a walking condition, as well as actually listen to them and their experience. A great deal of medical progress has been lost simply by modern medicine ignoring the patient experience. The patient centred approach is now something that's much more widely recognised as beneficial and valuable: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/12452113/ It's a shame the anti vaxx folk take progressive ideas and leverage them into their nonsense, but I think this is a very reasonable post and probably reflects a great deal of people's frustrations with not being properly listened to by doctors. Something that anyone who has any sort of chromic condition has likely experienced at some point. The simple fast is, a general practitioner likely will know less about a condition than someone who is well informed about it and has lived with it for a great deal of time. The medical world is now catching up with that and actually realising patients are a resource to learn from and help them make better decisions for better outcomes. This is a good thing, not something to scorn on the internet.


helen790

THIS!! Growing up autistic I had a doctor tell me and my parents I would “grow out of my sensory issues.” Which even at 10 I knew was bullshit, lo and behold over a decade later I have not grown out of my sensory issues. I even discovered that sensory issues get worse during my period, which nobody warned me about! They ignored what autistics said and instead chose to observe us like lab rats.


kforsythe91

Why wasn’t this the approach from the get go. Listening to patients and their experience? Because they didn’t believe them most of the time?


TheRealPitabred

Because there was an over confidence in a lot of science, especially starting around the 50s, where it was believed that we could eventually know everything through a few tests, that eventually you could have a pill for any condition, and that the human body was effectively a machine and you only had to replace or fix the parts that were going bad. As modern genetics and biology have slowly caught up though, we realize it’s a lot more complex than people thought back then yet there’s still a lot of holdover of that attitude. It’s usually not actively malicious, but it is reductionist.


mecrosis

Also back then there were a lot more just under educated populace. The doctors couldn't really count on them telling the doctor what's happening beyond what hurts.


Darkcharmer

True, but I'm not sure how much that's changed thanks to the growing miseducated populace that doesn't trust modern medicine and thinks they should listen to Gwyneth Paltrow and Jim Carrey instead of doctors and researchers.


mecrosis

Mean there are still a lot of morons out there, there just more educated morons than there used to be.


pine-elopy

Aaaaaaand a hell of a lot of sexism.


Ellikichi

Yeah. It's an outgrowth of the pervasive 20th century idea that people are basically a resource like lumber or tungsten.


Darkcharmer

>the pervasive 20th century idea that people are basically a resource like lumber or tungsten This is more of a 19th-century capitalist idea, popularized in the industrial revolution era. But I'd say it's more an outgrowth of the enlightenment idea that everything can be known through science, which I still think is true, everyone just underestimated the sheer amount of science and millennia of work it'll take to do that. There's virtually no concept of patients being "resources" in the medical world (IME, at least in a universal healthcare country like Canada, where I live), but definitely a ton of arrogance about the "test knows best" and "we're the experts, not you." The medical world does actually care (at least in Canada), it just often has this idea that patients are stupid children and the tests and expertise are the adults in the room who know what's best for them (and this is certainly sometimes true e.g. when dealing with anti-vaxxers). But it's not a sociopathic thing like the idea that patients are expendable resources...maybe this is different in America though.


redbird7311

A few reasons, one, self diagnoses are usually not accurate (useful for getting symptoms, not useful for knowing what they have). Two, that doctor has a lot more patients to get to, they want to keep that line moving. Edit: forgot to list drugs, some people try to use doctors as drug dealers by saying they have all of these symptoms and they need some painkillers or something.


carriegood

>self diagnoses are usually not accurate There's also what the great Dr. House said. Patients always lie.


redbird7311

It is less lying and more like, “hey, I have a pain in my chest, my mom has lung cancer, I think it is lung cancer”. Then it turns out to be something different


TheBearHooves

I have a rare skin condition and thankfully it has gone into remission for some years now. It was incredibly frustrating to go to different doctors and they would all prescribe the same thing and I would have to re-explain how that didn’t work the 10 other times. I had one doctor google the condition right in front me to to make his diagnosis. You might be wondering why I went to so many different doctors, it was due to the fact that the health insurance system is an absolute shit show and I was constantly bouncing around to different health insurance companies because my family struggled to afford health insurance.


missb00

I too have a rare skin condition and have had it googled in front of me multiple times. And still, I don't have a formal diagnosis. The closest I've gotten is a doctor who agreed with me.


0o_hm

You need to speak to a specialist. Not sure how your healthcare system works as it does vary depending on where you are in the world. But you need to get a referral or if you can just get booked in with one.


VallenGale

I agree with this... I have a chronic illness that I still have not gotten diagnosed because I’ve been met with doctors who will not listen to me and take into account what I say. I’ve gotten 1 X-ray and that’s it and only because I complained hard enough. Patient centered care that listens too and works with the patient experience would have saved me all this time dealing with doctors who don’t care. It’s a shame that people will take something so important to making health care better and turn it into something to further misinformation.


carriegood

> actually listen to them and their experience The problem, at least here in the US I believe, is that the insurance system forces doctors to book and double-book patients every 15 minutes, so a lot of the time they don't really have the time to have a discussion and pick up on all the nuances. I'm a great advocate for my own health and pretty educated about what is and isn't important, and even I feel I have to ramble off everything quickly so he gets it all. And this is with a doctor who takes the time to shmooze a little so his patients *don't* feel that rushed - which is why he's usually an hour or more behind every day.


_courier_

So to a *degree* I agree with this. A LOT of doctors will completely dismiss a patient’s pain because they think they’re always right and that the fact the patient is the one actually feeling it doesn’t mean anything. This especially happens to women a ton because “she’s being dramatic, it’s just anxiety.” HOWEVER, comparing these two scenarios is dumb as hell. Your doctor should listen to your input on the way you are feeling, and you shouldn’t be trying to tell your doctor that a post you saw on Facebook trumps their expertise. Plus, this would be a crappy comeback because these things would presumably be said about completely different topics anyway- you wouldn’t be using a google search as evidence when discussing a condition you’ve had for 20 years.


SensitivePassenger

Glad to see something like this! I have chronic pain and other stuff and being young (18 in a few days) it's near impossible to get taken seriously. Alwasy "you are so young, you shouldn't be having these problems" LIKE YEAH NO SHIT THAT'S WHY I'M HERE.


Blubari

This happened to me...TWICE First, just like you, chronic pain at a incredibly young age (19) a few years ago 1st doctor (recommended by my mom): "You're just fat, eat less" 2nd doctor (recommended by my dad): "hmm... I'll need a radiography" Then, it was revealed I was born with a spine mutation, the thing was tangled with some nerves and if I don't get a surgery I'll end up losing my right leg mobility permanently. Then a second time but with extremely dry hands and arms 2 years ago 1st doctor: "Wash your hands more you crybaby" 2nd one: "hmmm... I'll need an exam" Then it was revealed I developed a strong allergy to various kind of metals and I need to apply some special hydrating cream 5 times a day or my skin would start falling off (which was already happening at the time)


_courier_

Ugh, yeah. I have a friend with Crohns and getting people to take him seriously is always a struggle, he’s 17. I’m sorry that you’ve had that experience too.


kforsythe91

I’m 29 now and your friends story is very similar to mine. I was diagnosed with Crohns in 2012 and it took YEARS for doctors to take me seriously and to finally get a diagnosis. I lost 40 lbs in less than two months and was going to the bathroom over 17 times a day. Pain was indescribable. Still had doctors tell me it was this or that but I’ll be fine. Finally they figured it out. If he has a diagnosis at 17 he is farther ahead than a lot of people. Crohns is no joke and I hope he finds a doctor that will listen to him and his body and take his pain seriously.


RaringFob399

In my case it wasn't Crohns but Citomegalovirus, it took 2 years and one doctor who entered the medical team that was working with me to say "hey, maybe it is this even if he is just 16?"


jack-jackington

Well, if he is diagnosed with crohns, then obviously someone took him seriously.


_courier_

Uh.. yeah. That doesn’t mean that getting a diagnosis wasn’t difficult. He deals with more than a singular doctor dude.


SunBun93

I'm so sorry you're going through that. I dealt with chronic migraines from 21 to 25. Around 23 or 24 I started having severe fatigue, too. I was sleeping 16-18 hours a day. The doctor said "I wouldn't worry about it. You're just an active young lady." Wtf you mean I'm active? How am I supposed to be active when I sleep 3/4 of the day and spend the rest of it in severe pain? I ended up finding the solution myself (gluten allergy and hashimotos) and then talking to my doctor who criticized me for not going through a doctor first. I mean, I tried. I BEGGED for testing. The only reason I got tested for hashimotos is two random nurse practitioners noticed my thyroid was inflamed on a totally unrelated urgent care visit.


CrawlerCrane

My partner has Hashimoto's. She eventually got a diagnosis about 15 years ago. Even now going to a new doctor is a gamble as to whether they'll accept that prior diagnosis and give her a new script for her thyroid medication, or just tell her to get more exercise.


the-bees-sneeze

I had the same thing happen to me when I was younger with arthritis in my knees. “You’re too young to have arthritis” and that was it. Finally found a doc who knew this was a thing that happened in young women, I’ve had 2 surgeries and need a knee replacement and I’m not 40 yet, so I encourage you to find a specialist or at least a different doctor. You know your body best and should find someone who will listen to you. I find women doctors are more understanding/empathetic because women have been experiencing this for years.


SensitivePassenger

I've gone to quite a few different ones and even specialists too and honestly they have all mostly sucked. This is in the EU and while some doctors are great, with anything that isn't the most common thing ever it quickly goes to "lol idk good luck". At least the occupational therapist I have is great but doesn't know any good doctors to reccomend.


woddas13

I’ve had moderate- severe Rheumatoid Arthritis since I was 12; don’t let them tell you you’re too young to have a disease.


the-bees-sneeze

I’m really sorry, I hope you find someone eventually. Don’t give up, keep pushing them!


Cacti-make-bad-dildo

Am in my forties, still to young? And have to wait till 55 at least for new knees. Doctors are first line held desk. They know a bit about everything but not enough to help. The amount of times i hear: you need to cycle to stay fit! (as it says in every brochure) me: its on the back of my patella! Them; but you have knee osteoarthritis! Me: pattela is part of the knee? ....


killerkitty2016

It took them 37 years to work out my depression and anxiety are caused by ADHD, something my brother was diagnosed with early in life. But girls don't get that, they're just moody or shy.


SensitivePassenger

Yeah it sucks. I think here it is still hard but I myself didn't have much trouble getting a diagnosis and then treatment luckily and been on meds since last fall. Makes life so much easier tbh to have a working brain.


UnitedSloth

I'm so sorry. I've been living with chronic pain since I was 12, I'm now 32. I'm here if you need to vent! Edit to add: I hate people who say stuff like "but you are just too young to be sick!" Yeah, thanks bro. I'm sick regardless 🤷🏻‍♀️


MissSwat

I just wanted to say I've never met someone whose dealt with chronic pain as long as I have and it's... Nice? Maybe nice is the wrong word but damn it feels good to see that there is someone else out there who has made it as long and clearly has their head screwed on right. It can be a really lonely road when it's been such a huge part of your life. You actually have a year on me, as my pain started when I was 13 and I'll be 32 this month. Hey does it get better at the 20 year mark?


rhimutch

Yep I feel this. I’ve had severe fatigue, chronic pain and just general shitty symptoms since I was 13/14 (turning 18 soon). Turns out it’s a rare blood disease that occurs in about 1-2 people per million, and if left untreated would make my life expectancy about 10 years. For years I was just treated like I was depressed, I wish doctors would’ve taken me more seriously.


muiirinn

Yeah it sucks. I developed symptoms of an autoimmune disease, particularly chronic pain, very suddenly right before I turned 18. I'm almost 24 now and it's a fucking uphill battle. I can't count how many times I've heard the "oh but you're so young" comment. It can come across as very dismissive because yeah, I might be young BUT I'm in a lot of pain to the point where I can't sleep, I don't think my disease particularly cares how old I am.


Dabbles_in_doodles

Yep. I have a prolapsed disc when I was 16, took nagging my GP for two years to get an MRI because they just didn't take the pain seriously. Took nearly 10 years for a PCOS diagnosis too.


carriegood

I wasn't quite that young, but I got thyroid cancer at 28 and the road to diagnosis was TORTURE simply because every doctor at every step said "oh, I'm sure it's not cancer, you're only 28, we'll just do this one test to rule it out." Then the test would either be inconclusive, or point to cancer, so I'd get passed on to the next specialist who'd say the same thing and do another round of more invasive testing. Just fucking say it's cancer and get on with it! It got so ridiculous that even after they had done every test known to medicine, they STILL weren't sure it was cancer, but they said we should assume it was and do the surgery. No shit, Sherlock, I've been saying that for 6 months. Then, after they took out half (because ***if*** it's not cancer, we should leave one side in), they said oh yeah, it's cancer, so you need a second surgery to take the rest of it out.


ReactsWithWords

Several years ago I heard about sleep apnea. I thought, “that sounds like me!” I went to my doctor and said “I think I might have sleep apnea.” In his condescending way (I now go to a different doctor), he said, “Oh, you have a medical degree now? Congratulations!” I started to list the symptoms I had but he stopped listening. A few months later I saw him and said, “I snore loudly, have been told I sometimes stop breathing in the middle of the night, and often wake up tired.” Without missing a beat he said, “Sounds like you have sleep apnea. Let’s set up a test for you.” As it turns out, I do have it, but the point of my story is even if he didn’t listen to me, I sure as hell would listen to him because he didn’t go to medical school as just a way to pass the time.


Envelki

That sound like what I experienced, but I never been tested. What kind of treatment/device do you use now? And is it getting better?


ReactsWithWords

I use a cpap machine and it works well.


Envelki

As I did some research i was afraid I might need to use one so I tried something else I found on Amazon : the oniris mandibular advancement device. With this device I no longer snore (on the iSnore app I dropped from a score of 80 to less than 5) and I think my sleep apnea has almost disappeared! It took 2/3 weeks to get used to the weird sensation and sore mouth in the morning but now I don't feel a thing and sleep like a baby :) (it's cheap plus you don't have a thing on your face with an awkward tube)


vpsj

Question: Do you wake up coughing if you sleep on your back? Because the rest of your symptoms don't line with me, but I HAVE to sleep either on my side or face down. Weirdly, this doesn't happen if I haven't eaten anything for 4-5 hours before sleeping. If I am practically starving I can sleep on my back no problem. This is not a _big_ problem in my life, just a slight inconvenience that my sleep positions are limited so I was wondering what the fuck this is.


JCPWGoliath1218

Not a doctor, but maybe that has something to do with acid reflux?


ReactsWithWords

I’ve been on a cpap machine for over 10 years, but I don’t remember doing that before I was.


Danqel

This is very very true! I'm currently finish of my second term of med school and something which the school has put huge emphasis on is interactions with the patiants and thtt EVERYONE IS UNIQUE. We might learn everything about the body and how it works and the anatomy, but when somone comes in complaining about an weird symptom DDOESNT mean they're wrong. It means we must figure out why THEY in particular are feeling the way they are. I can't stand doctors who believe they are gods among men. The same way I can't stand patiants thining they know general biology more than their doctor. In the end of the day medical professionals are providing a a service requiring both parties. Doctors need to listen, learn and take in info while the patient has to trust the medical professior in their judgment... Hower its hard to do that when neither side wants to be wrong :/


velveteenelahrairah

A few years back I hit up Urgent Care complaining of a sore throat making it near impossible to swallow. The nurse rolled her eyes at me and acted like I was being a whiny brat and wasting her time before prescribing me antibiotic pills (reminder: chief complaint was *finding it near impossible to swallow*). A few days later, after puking up the pills every time I tried to take them and after a few days without sleep from the pain and fever, I checked myself into the local mental health ward. Turned out to be absolute raging strep throat and I spent the day getting IV steroids and antibiotics and a *wonderful* nasal endoscopy. (And the joy of hearing the doctor blow up at the ENT specialist when he implied I might be malingering or attention seeking. She screamed at him that if he'd bothered to look through my medical history he'd see I had a problem with *self neglect*, that she had examined me herself and I was desperately ill, and that he should stop talking about my mental health and do his job.) I spent a week coughing up dead tissue and pus, a month before my voice stopped sounding like Tone Loc, several years later my voice is different and *still* gets creaky when I'm tired or I've talked too much, and I now get anxious when I get the tiniest twinge in my throat, but sure, tell me again how I'm "being dramatic™". Those antivaxx morons are making us all look bad, and I'll go get my second vaccine day after tomorrow with a skip in my step and a thank you just to spite them. And also, yknow, because I don't want to be a plague rat.


ewanchukwilliam

Similar situation with back pain. I’ve had it make me literally pass out in front of a doctor. And I’ve been bed ridden for 2-5 days straight. I’ve asked my family doctor outright “is normal that I can’t move at all for days at a time and have a new back sprain every 3 years or so?” And he just told me yeah it sure can be “frustrating”. Absolutely heartbreaking to hear every single time. Still no diagnosis. Just crippling pain. I can’t do regular exercise anymore. When it hits my upper back I can’t breath and it becomes excruciating. I’m 23 years old and this has been happening almost half my life now. Only doctor to take me seriously was my physiotherapist. He suspects chronic ankylosing spondylitis. But it’s notorious for doctors to take up to 15 years on average to diagnose it.


BaronVonNes

My wife has a skin condition that leaves her hands cracked and bleeding. Small movements are painful. She goes to dermatologists, they try to give her the identical courses of steroids that don't work for her. We google it....it can be contact dermatitis caused by allergies! We ask her dermatologist for a recommendation for allergy screening so our insurance will cover it. Dermatologist tells us it's never allergies. We site the exact medical journal we found, dermatologist continues to insist it's not allergies. Talk to an allergist, absolutely can be allergies. Get panel done, it's a fucking contact dermatitis allergy. Intelligent people with chronic conditions spend more time researching their conditions than the doctors that are treating them. Medical knowledge doesn't only exist with the degree. I don't mean 'research' by looking at blogs, I mean actual scholarly medical journals. What do you call a doctor that graduated bottom of their class? Doctor.


mayranav

Do you have pictures of your wife’s hands? Something similar has happened to me and I haven’t been to a dermatologist bc their earliest appt is in November.


bloodonsnow

YUP. I had a doctor in the year of our lord 2008 put down that I was a "hysterical" woman who was in the ER because I didn't have a husband or kids. I have endometriosis and adenomyosis. I had my first surgery at 14 and didn't get diagnosed at 32. I've had eleven surgeries, at least 20 gynes, and I'm on permanent disability now because medicine doesn't really know fuckall about pain or how to treat it. (Or endo, but that's more to do with medical misogyny than anything else). I think this is more about frustration? But it's gross an antivaxxer latched onto it.


majorsamanthacarter

My OB didn’t listen when I told him I felt like my baby was massive (and my husband was a large baby so I was worried about it). Dismissed me because I looked too small, and would not listen to how much pain I was in either. My daughter was nearly 10 1/2 lbs at birth and I delivered her naturally. She was not over due and I did not have GD btw. Doctors can be incredibly dismissive of women and people of color unfortunately.


Cyaneyed8905

My friend is a doctor and WOC and she told me that it's especially bad for black women. Hospitals and doctors in general are more likely than not to either underprescribe or basically ignore their needs and reports of pain. I'm just your basic yt queer. It's not something I had ever thought that much about bc I never had that problem with doctors even though I have a severe mental illness. I was shook.


ewanchukwilliam

Similar situation with back pain. I’ve had it make me literally pass out in front of a doctor. And I’ve been bed ridden for 2-5 days straight. I’ve asked my family doctor outright “is normal that I can’t move at all for days at a time and have a new back sprain every 3 years or so?” And he just told me yeah it sure can be “frustrating”. Absolutely heartbreaking to hear every single time. Still no diagnosis. Just crippling pain. I can’t do regular exercise anymore. When it hits my upper back I can’t breath and it becomes excruciating. I’m 23 years old and this has been happening almost half my life now. Only doctor to take me seriously was my physiotherapist. He suspects chronic ankylosing spondylitis. But it’s notorious for doctors to take up to 15 years on average to diagnose it.


pietro5000pp

I got back pain and everyone thought I was a lazy fuck that should move more and it turned out to be cancer


_courier_

Jesus Christ, I’m so sorry but I laughed just because of how that escalated. So sorry you had to experience that.


pietro5000pp

No problem! It's a type of cancer that won't kill me so I like to laugh about it a lot.


Spiffinit

True. This is why I’m so glad my insurance allows me to self-refer to a specialist. I had a GP not take me seriously for a few years on what turned out to be RA.


carriegood

Yeah, it has nothing to do with vaccine hesitancy, which is what the google search quote refers to.


lordoftoastonearth

I don't think this is simple as an arrogant patient. This could go either way: of course there are people who think they know more than their doctor with a bit of Google, but me and people I know have been dismissed dozens of times with real diagnosible conditions by overworked, mysogynistic, lazy or uneducated medical professionals. There's nothing wrong with advocating for yourself, staying persistent and asking questions. But neither doctor or patient should be condescending or feel they definetely know better than the other party. Im iron deficient (like many women), and my usual doctor tries to help me with iron supplements. I can promise you I eat a mostly balanced diet. I'm not perfect, but I get some of all the good stuff. One day I got a different doctor because I visited the office without an appointment. She pointed out my iron levels, and asked if I ate enough liver and blood sausage. When I told her I had never eaten either and was vegetarian on top of that, she just said that that was "horrible".


TheRedNaxela

Jokes aside, this actually a very important point in medical education. Doctors see their patients for 10 minute consultations every now and then, but patients live with it. While the doctor knows more about the disease, the patient knows more about their condition.


Rows_

There's a difference between specialists and general doctors. When I see a gp they're always really keen to out everything down to ulcerative colitis, and try to send me to hospital and/or give me steroids. More than once I've seen consultants get angry because a doctor admitting me should have listened when I said something was different with a flare up instead of just giving me steroids. I trust doctors, but there are plenty of things they don't know enough about to accurately treat, and they should listen to patients who have had an illness for a long time.


pickledshallots

Ok this is kind of true though. It took me, a sports therapist that knows very little about medicine (basic surface knowledge stuff) to figure out that my diabetic partner’s birth control was making her blood sugar absolutely skyrocket. Even her endo didn’t know this. Wtf. Edit: she also self-diagnosed herself with type 1 diabetes. The hospital dismissed her and sent her home. She almost died because of their incompetence.


bobthecookie

How the hell did the hospital miss diabetes of all things? That's some mind boggling stupidity. I've also had a shit time with hospitals as a type 1 diabetic. At this point, if I have to go to the ER, I won't tell them my blood sugar unless a doctor explains exactly why they need it. Otherwise they'll hold me for hours because my blood sugar is slightly high, or they'll try to manage my blood sugar. I've seen them try to use a sliding scale for me before, it's absurd.


ColtAzayaka

Having a condition doesn't mean you understand the biology of it and humans in general better than a doctor. You simply understand what it's like to have the condition. Sure, there's a chance you know it incredibly well from researching it but that's not the point. I'm going to trust a doctor anyway because they've written exams and gone through certified medical schools. You've been on the internet. Why even go to a doctor if you're just going to treat them condescendingly like this? That said, doctors shouldn't treat people like idiots either.


ConfidenceInRain

Tbf having my endometriosis taken seriously was a long journey of talking to quite a few doctors. They all know more about endometriosis than I do, but it was my own diagnosis that lead to getting help for it. I knew my experience wasn’t normal because I have plenty of menstruating friends to compare notes with. So it is more of a grey area in some instances.


ALiALien

It's horrible that a lot of women seem to have problems with being diagnosed with endometriosis. When I told my male gp that I've been having some pretty intense cramps, he prompted the possibility of endometriosis right away. I didn't even know about this condition at the time. Luckily tests came back negative. So sorry it took you some time to get diagnosed tho. That really shouldn't be the case.


Marvelite0963

As a kid, I had two doctors tell me I had seasonal allergy headaches or stress headaches. I had cluster headaches. No doctor wanted to believe how much it hurt. I broke my arm bone completely into two pieces and didn't cry. I could handle pain, but I couldn't handle these "headaches." By the third doctor, I had researched enough to ask them if I had cluster headaches. She said it sounded like I did. There's no "cure," and most treatments didn't help me much. But being told that I probably wasn't exaggerating the pain made me feel so much better. Thankfully, I haven't had one in years. Which is actually pretty common, and most people stop getting them after about a decade, as I recall.


Chaos2077

Started going to the doctors at 14 as something wasn't right. They kept telling me it was just my periods. At 20 (this year) had my first surgery and waiting for the next. It took me collapsing at work and throwing up from severe pain, bleeding for 8 months straight and going to A&E twice for them to take it seriously. They didn't believe strong painkillers were doing nothing until I was on morphine and tramodyl and was in agonising pain and still wide awake to realise too. I understand that sometimes it takes time for them to understand what's wrong, and we pushed a lot, but now the doctors are going above and beyond for me (also go free health care or I would be much worse)


ConfidenceInRain

Absolutely, same here. I didn’t have any of the horrors that you went through (sounds awful by the way, I am so glad you’re getting help ♥️) but it’s because of free healthcare that I was eventually helped out. I’ve had one operation and a baby since, and I couldn’t be more grateful for the support I got once we worked out what was wrong. I think I would have found out about it sooner but I was on the pill from 15 to 24 so I only had natural cycles from about 25. That’s when it all started to escalate.


Alocina

Yeah, if I hadn't pushed for a referral to an endometriosis specialist I wouldn't have been diagnosed at all.


figmaxwell

If people were less snotty to each other we’d all be in a better place. A doctor shouldn’t discount a patients opinion and internet research on its face, and if the patient is wrong in their self diagnosis, they shouldn’t be a douche to the doctor. It can be a collaborative process and people should be willing to admit they don’t know everything or didn’t think of something.


cocobootyslap

I was gunna bring up endo too - literally had to go to about 10 different obgyns to get anyone to take me seriously. Finally found my current dr who is an endo specialist and he diagnosed me via lap and was the first person to take me seriously. I think this is one of those diseases that a lot of doctors are incredibly misinformed about, even obgyns. The amount of “there is no way you have endometriosis because of XYZ, I don’t know whats causing you pain, but you will likely never find out” I got from doctors was ridiculous.


SellQuick

Friend of mine went to ER because she was in incredible pain. The (male) doctor told her it was period pain. She and her mother knew it wasn't and would not let them send her home. After they finally relented to stop the crazy mother yelling at them, they did some scans, rushed her into the operating theatre and her appendix burst as they lifted it out. She could have died because they wouldn't take a woman reporting agonising pain seriously.


Niamicheal

Chiming is a male here, it isn't limited to just women as far as the appendix pain. I went to the ER and it was like pulling teeth to get them to believe me that it wasn't my enteritis or other kinds of gut pain. They only realized I was right after it had burst and went into septic shock.


SellQuick

That is crazy, I just don't understand how something so common isn't screened for by default. I'm glad you came out of it okay, but it shouldn't have gotten to that point. Pro tip, next time bring a very pushy mother who won't let them ignore you. If you don't have one, my friend has one you can borrow.


Niamicheal

My whole family was with me as they knew something was seriously wrong with me. Arrogant assholes are common in the medical field and sadly are makjng many people siffer unnecessarily simply because "I have years of medical school" makes them think that no matter what they always are right.


ori_is_not_here

Same here, took me 10 years to get a diagnosis. It wasn't until I googled my symptoms and read about endo that doctors started treating me seriously and not just prescribed me a new contraceptive pill. I hate to be the kind of person that googles their symptoms, but tbh sometimes the healthcare system pushes you to it just to be taken seriously.


the_drunken_taco

Unfortunately the statistics say your experience IS normal, and it’s a damn shame. Sources: - https://www.medmalfirm.com/news-and-updates/misdiagnosis-epidemic-among-women/ - https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/women-and-pain-disparities-in-experience-and-treatment-2017100912562 - here’s one just on endo: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32007945/


meowpitbullmeow

Also having a condition doesn't mean you know how said condition handles other people. Many people in the autistic community feel they can diagnose and help young children with Autism than a doctor. It's incredibly frustrating


galettedesrois

I mean, it took two years of being dismissed by various healthcare professionals tofind one who finally accepted to refer my son to the ASD Diagnostic Clinic. The problem was clearly with me: I was imagining things, I an overly anxious parent, I was not providing him with enough stimulation, I was not providing him with enough discipline etc. A pediatrician (!) even told me "your son can't have ASD since he doesn't have a speech delay. It must be ADHD. Encourage him to pay more attention" (I'm not inventing this shit, that's pretty much verbatim what she said. I just stared in disbelief. Yes, the DSM-5 had been out for a while when this took place).He was finally referred (by the "no speech delay" pediatrician), and yes he's autistic. I can only imagine the mess if I, a middle aged women, was trying to get assessed.


meowpitbullmeow

I don't know how long ago it was for you, but I feel it's getting better. However, that is insanely frustrating. I'm more mad about the people who, after he receives his diagnosis, are trying to tell me they know better for him than the therapists and doctors he sees all the time. As internet strangers. He's 2.


ColtAzayaka

Yeah, especially with neurodivergence things can be very different to diagnose. I like pathology more for it's precise and clear cut than psychopathology is. Still, even with physical disorder there are variations. I love medicine.


CelticHound27

Probably went to the doc to try get him prescribe a medication they think will do the job but may in fact target something irrelevant. Heard a few stories like it


Dorcustitanus

no no doc, fuck off with all that "fiber" shit i got diarrhea and only opium will cure it, so hand it over


CelticHound27

Signs a prescription for laxatives in that weird handwriting only doctors use “here you go take 3 a day”


The_Lost_Google_User

So thatssss why they do the weird writing


juancho_santos

Not only did doctors have a lecture on this in med school, but they also most likely encountered this in the hospital and treated many patients with this condition during residency training. This antivaxxer's take is a complete misrepresentation, but why am I even surprised.


here_for_the_meems

>That said, doctors shouldn't treat people like idiots either. For real. Every doctor is like this (by rote I'm sure, they deal with a lot of idiots) and it's really annoying. Even after I explain that I'm not the kind of ignorant baboon they normally see, they're giving me elementary lessons on basic things like how "nerve endings in your fingers are smarter than nerves inside your body". Yeah, no shit dude.


noxitide

… smarter? Smarter???????! There’s just more of them. How does a nerve become smarter.


here_for_the_meems

Your brain can sense if something is soft or hard or prickly or hot on your finger. Your internal organs on the other hand simply register that something is there.


noxitide

That would be because of the different nerves that are present, as well as how plentiful they are. Some register temperature, some register touch, some register pain. Our fingerprints also play a role in how we experience things with very fine texture. And many organs don’t have touch nerves at all. So they’re not “smarter” … just more diverse and more plentiful.


here_for_the_meems

My point is that it was an example of a doctor explaining something like I was a child. So you're making my point by arguing with me about it. Stop getting so upset.


trojan25nz

It’s like, being a passenger doesn’t mean you know how to fly a plane


AnnaBananner82

So I have chronic health conditions that are fairly rare. I definitely know a lot more about them through my years of living with them and being treated by doctors who specialize in their treatment. I follow research studies, I follow the latest medical literature. I also have to *regularly* go to the ER for flares when I’m not in a remission. In those ER’s, I often have to educate doctors on misconceptions they have about gastroparesis, not to mention filling them in on what my doctors usually do for me treatment wise if we catch the flare in time. Yes, this treatment DOES include opiates. No, I don’t abuse them because they’re miserable and fuck up your life and your digestion. So tell me - how am I supposed to feel about doctors who completely dismiss my symptoms, notes from my doctor, and previous hospitalization records because I “must be drug-seeking?” There are too many horror stories of doctors killing their patients through arrogance, especially when that patient is female. More so if the patient is also POC, especially Black women. So yeah. Maybe I don’t have a medical degree. But considering I almost died thanks to doctors ignoring me about my symptoms, I guess this meme hits a little different.


itssmeagain

I completely understand what you mean. I had a diarrhoea for over a year. And I don't mean that I had to poop more often, everything was liquid without a medication for 18 months. I basically couldn't leave my house (well couldn't have anyway because of covid), I couldn't eat anything before the evening and then it was diarrhoea time again. I went to see again another doctor and her solution was that I have ibs. The fuck. She didn't care about what I had to say, didn't listen to me, just thought she would heal me just by saying don't eat this and that. Well, I had a tumour


DAMunzy_

Fuck...I need to get to doctor


FemaleAndComputer

Well said. While the wording of the original post is offputting and cringey, it doesn't really fit this sub. Anyone who has a chronic medical condition--especially if it's something rare--knows that sometimes it's totally necessary to educate doctors about it in order to get appropriate and timely treatment.


jordanjay29

> it doesn't really fit this sub This. The retort is such a bad take on the anti-vaxxer stuff. Even **if** it's being co-opted by the anti-vax crowd, it doesn't lack legitimacy for folks who are *actually* chronically ill.


Eclectix

Ever since being diagnosed with my chronic illness, I have had to educate every single doctor I've had about it. And it's NOT even all that rare! The worst part is that the treatment they usually recommend is not only outdated, but actually has been proven to dramatically worsen the condition. I have great respect for medical science. But the medical system is fucked, and doctors don't have time to keep up with the latest developments if it doesn't apply broadly to the most common complaints they encounter. They're fine for treating the common ailments, but if you come in with a rare condition, their training tells them, "It's far more likely something common than something rare," and they're not wrong. But that means that rare conditions get overlooked again and again, often for years, before a patient might get a proper diagnosis. Also, since there are *so many* rare conditions, it's ironically not that rare for someone to have a rare condition.


Neonicalle

Honestly any doctor that pulls the "don't go to Dr Google" card is immediately one that I know isn't going to be helpful. I have a chronic condition and if I tell a doctor that I'm having concerning symptoms and they accuse me of being anxious from googling, I know it's time to find another doctor. I understand people can scare themselves through google but I think it's a minority of people that google something and convince themselves that something is seriously wrong when there isn't, people generally have an inclination of if their body is working the right way or not. And if you have long-term symptoms that aren't being taken seriously then a doctor should at least consider there being an issue before dismissing you. A healthy doctor-patient relationship is about mutual respect and if either side is having to insist that they know what they are talking about then the respect is missing. And I know for a fact from several doctors that at least with my condition, at most they've read about it in a textbook or had one lecture about it, because they've told me and asked me about my experiences so that a healthy relationship can be established. I cringe whenever I see this meme outside of chronic illness subreddits because it reeks of ableism, and I'm glad to see these comments aren't filled with people who think that this is an amazing clap back against 'paranoid patients'. Little bit of a rant, but this kind of meme brings up a lot for me.


Eclectix

> "don't go to Dr Google" I've actually watched doctors google my symptoms before. I mean I get it, if you go to the web with a headache it's going to tell you that you have a brain tumor. But that doesn't mean that a reasonably intelligent person with a touch of skepticism, a moderate understanding of their body, and a bit of skill doing web searches *can't* find useful information on the web.


i_sing_anyway

The problem is that both sides of this argument are true in varying degrees. Doctors (bad ones) do have a tendency to rely too much on standard knowledge and can be dismissive of patients' lived experiences. On the other hand, patients (stupid ones) often think that they understand the mechanisms behind their illnesses when they can't even understand basic science. The worst extreme of bad doctors leads to medical neglect, the worst extreme of dumb patients leads to anti-vaxxers.


FlowerFaerie13

Not really r/vaxxhappened material imho. Doctors aren’t infallible and if you have a rare or complex condition getting one that takes you seriously can be *incredibly* frustrating, especially if you’re BIPOC or a woman. Source- Am a woman and have a rare condition. Just getting decent pain relief took actual years.


GaiasDotter

Relating. Finally sought help for my chronic pain, I have fibromyalgia and it’s suspected that I also have EDS but I need to see someone else for that diagnosis apparently. Anyway. I was sent to my GP clinic to get a referral to a pain clinic. So I talked with the dr a little and as usual she asked what meds I take and I went through it. Among my meds are allergy meds because I have pollen allergy. I was then asked about when I have sought help for this previously and I answered honestly that this was the first time I sought help for it. My husband have super severe chronic pain and I have seen how he has been treated and since I don’t have nerve pain nor that bad pain I just decided to deal rather then going through that shit. But since it has started to get worse and worse I figured it was time to get a diagnosis because I’ll probably need pain management help sooner or later. So first time. The doctor looks at me super suspiciously and condescendingly and starts questioning it. Like seriously lady, there always has to be a first time. This is the first time… she obviously doesn’t believe me, god knows why because why would you lie about that? Says she’s going to check my journals and then when she comes back she has this super smug “aha!” Look and tone and comes in like she has caught me and states: “You told me you have allergies but you did an allergy test 2015 that showed no allergies!”. She seriously acted like she had caught me in this huge lie and she got me… it was weird as fuck. That was this year btw. And I was all confused like”yeah….?” And she just repeats that the test showed no allergies and yet I claim allergy. I wasn’t allergic in 2015 when the test was done but I am now because I *developed* allergies a year or two later, which is completely fucking normal. You can develop allergies at anytime and obviously you won’t actually be allergic *until* you *become* allergic. Fucking moron honestly. And also why the fuck would I lie about allergies to get a prescription for *over the counter* allergy meds. Also consider that I have ADHD and am prescribed Ritalin for that… just because someone is a doctor doesn’t mean that they aren’t an idiot. Last time my husband saw his doctor she informed him that *everyone* reacts *exactly* the same to *all* medications. Yeah, no. That’s not how any of this works and we both now this because we can fucking read. The reason that medications have a list of side effects that’s listed by how common they are is because medications does in fact *not* effect everyone exactly the same. That is also why there are several different medications that do pretty much the same thing. And not just one for each thing. Because they don’t work the same for different people.


xotbirdox

No, I've seen this post before. It's about chronic health conditions, not vaccines. There is absolutely a problem in the medical field with doctors dismissing patients who have rarer/more under-researched conditions. Don't confuse those of us who are chronically ill with anti-vax/anti-medicine nutjobs please. I know this experience of not being listened to, I have felt it. I had to fight hard for my diagnoses. I am also fully vaxxed. It's a different thing.


Moses_The_Wise

There is something to this. Many doctors and nurses have been given shit for ignoring the complaints of patients, especially female patients or minority patients. I remember reading a story about a black women who gave birth, and she insisted it didn't feel right. She was dismissed, and generally treated like shit, and the baby died from an entirely foreseeable and preventable cause. The women had given birth 3 times, she knew what it was supposed to be like. But the doctors and nurses just didn't care.


rubypiplily

To be fair, I’m a surgeon and I have Ehlers-Danlos Syndrome. Since (here in the UK) surgeons drop the “Dr” title, the specialists I see obviously don’t know my occupation, so I’m often scoffed at when I express my opinions or knowledge on my condition. Very few are willing to listen, and a lot are under the impression that they know more than the patient. While they might understand workings of the condition, they don’t have it - understanding the condition on paper can only give them so much insight, they can’t possibly understand what it’s like to live with it, and that’s when the patient should be listened to. Having personal experience casually dismissed is especially true for the senior consultants who’ve been in the job a long time - they develop egos because very few people dare to keep them in check. I’m a junior surgeon, so I hope I can remember my own frustrations at being talked down to and my opinions dismissed to avoid developing a big ego in the future.


noxitide

Honestly, the ego bit is a huge thing and it impacts every single career where you specialise, from retail to NASA engineers. I’m in materials science and I think ego distracts from a lot of really important work that could be done. My new supervisor is a woman and therefore gets fewer collaborations and papers - ego is super prevalent and it hampers science communication and innovation. I hope that the discussion about medical professionals listening to patients can eventually expand beyond the field so that all science communicators (of which doctors and surgeons are members of) can become better.


rubypiplily

One of my professors warned us to stay humble, and reminded us that even though we can do remarkable things, that does not make us a god. She was very quick to pull up anyone who showed too much ego. She said that it was a good thing to take pride in our work, but to not let it turn into arrogance. But there will always be people who just can’t help but be pompous tossers.


athenanon

I think this is more about diseases like endometriosis and fibromyalgia than about vaccines. And women have a genuine bone to pick with the medical establishment about both of these. Honestly, the failures in engaging with women and BIPOC (along with downright abuses) over the last couple of centuries definitely has a hand in the mistrust that has let this anti-vaxx stuff grow to the extent it has.


theswannwholaughs

This is something that can happen. Doctors are often wholly unprepared to take care of some patients.


ChristieFox

While judgmental docs are a big problem, it's stupid to put those two topics together like that. One of those problems means you should look for a better doctor, the other means you yourself brought yourself in the weeds by thinking Google is a replacement for many years of learning from basics like "what are the things that make up a cell?" up to things you wouldn't even look for when doing a quick Google search. It took a team of doctors a week to diagnose me with an autoimmune disease (urgent case, that's why it was so quick), there went a lot more into it than "let me Google symptoms". That's something else than the idiot doctor who told me to do yoga when I asked for a few sessions of physio therapy to learn how to move with excruciating joint pain from my illness.


chroniccomplexcase

This is true for me. I have medical conditions many general doctors and consultants who aren’t specialists in that field have never heard of. I’m on medication they’ve never heard of too. So often I have to explain what my condition is and what it does and how it affects me.


PurveyorOfBirds

Actually this one has a genuine point. The number of doctors I've seen that don't put effort into staying current in medical advances or into trying to understand the patient is too damn high. This goes up exponentially if the patient isn't seen as a full person, as is the case with obese patients. I've had family treated like utter garbage by doctors.


masondino13

I wouldn't say this is really an anti-vax sentiment. I am a medical student and we are literally taught that patients with rare diseases will likely know more about it than you do so you should listen to them and value their input. Many patients with rare disorders have died due to the ego of doctors who refused to listen. However much they may know, every doctor cannot know everything and humanizing patients is incredibly important.


Blackbear0101

That's not an antivaxxer thing. It's a disabled people thing. A lot of doctors don't know what they're talking about when talking to disabled people, simply because there are thousands of very complex illnesses, and they just can't know every one of them. Disabled people sometimes know a lot more than doctors they see, unless they are seeing a specialist for their illness. So, yeah, doctors who don't know what they're talking about exist, but it's not really the problem. The problem comes when those doctors don't listen to their patients.


cliffhangingma

Yeah I actually agree. I happen to not run a fever often, apparently, and my childhood GP took note of this and then did not rule out infections when I had a “normal” temp. Every doctor since has been a huge bitch about like giving me a strep test if I have every symptom except a fever… The 98.6 number came from a study done in the 1800s y’all. Is it really so impossible to believe someone can have a bacterial infection at 99 degrees F?


SellQuick

To be fair this is a real problem for people with zebra conditions trying to get a diagnosis and not being believed about their symptoms. I don't think it's referencing antivax.


SPARKY358gaming

The og post is about antivax


SellQuick

I know. I just don't think this one is. It's snarking at doctors for not listening when a patient describes an atypical symptom that they suffer from when it might actually be important. Doctors see the same conditions day in day out. Their assumptions around people's symptoms are totally human responses. a+b=c but sometimes a(b+c)=z and the difference between figuring it out and sending the patient away yet again with an incorrect diagnosis is listening and putting assumptions aside for a minute when you've worked two shifts back to back and a covid denier just spat in your face. It's not an attack on doctors, that is a totally normal way the human brain works, to disregard information that doesn't feel relevant and take a shortcut to an easy answer, when most of the time that answer will be right. But it's an exhausting process for those with chronic and complicated conditions trying to get healthcare professionals to listen and take them seriously.


Rikvi

Yeah I know from context of this being posted in this sub, we're supposed to disagree, but as someone who has had to fight doctors to get taken seriously, while my sister has dealt with much worse from them, they can take their 1-hour lecture and shove it. Don't mix justified anger with how dismissive doctors are with anti-vax bullshit, it's ableist.


heathere3

Honestly? I'm kind of on the patient's side on this one. I have an extremely rare autoimmune disease. As in less than 40,000 known cases. So yes, I do know more about it than the average doctor I see. But I also realize I'm an extreme case.


SnugglyRedPandaLass

This one can be fairly true. My fiancé is albino. I have seen this man get moon burned. (As in sunburned from being out for a while during a full moon.). He can easily get sunburned during the day even with a UV index of 0. The only way to prevent this is to slather himself with zinc religiously every 15 minutes, and even then he’s probably getting burned. His doctor told him to go hiking to help loose weight and that he’d be fine on cloudy days. -_-


SPARKY358gaming

Smort


noxitide

Reminds me of when I saw my first therapist. I worked retail full time with more than 13k steps every day. He was like, you’re a high activity person but going for walks can still help you. My other patient who is like you said they went for a four hour walk and felt better. So do that every day and you’ll feel better. … I didn’t go back.


violetgreygrace

This post is actually incredibly ableist.


bugscuz

In my case it’s kinda valid. I’m also autistic and made it my mission to become as educated on my disease as I can. I walked my neurologist through the prescription procedure for the meds I’m about to go on because I spent a year researching it before requesting it, then had to postpone another year because of COVID so I kept going lol. I even told her which oncologists would be best suited to consulting on that med if she needed more information. Not every case is like mine, but doctors definitely can be dicks about it even when they actually know less about the condition then the patient lol


narcolepticfoot

Doctors like this are why it took me nearly 10 years to get diagnosed with multiple sclerosis despite begging doctors to take me seriously. No, I obviously don’t think I know more about medicine than a doctor, but I certainly know when something is wrong *in my own body.* They kept blowing me off as “that happens to everyone,” “you just need to lose weight/exercise,” and “that’s just PMS.” Thank god a doctor finally took me seriously and I finally got on the appropriate meds before I went blind or lost the ability to walk. Now I’ve got MRIs of holes in my brain to prove that I wasn’t just being hysterical, but I STILL run into issues with new doctors thinking I’m drug-seeking, because there’s a bizarre and totally false “MS doesn’t cause pain” idea that’s floating around the medical community. (How can somebody hear “chronic muscle spasms and nerve damage” and think “nope, no way that’s painful”??)


Lilyyy6

How is this antivax? Unless the poster is implying that not getting vaccines is a condition, which is a take I've never heard before from antivaxers


loercase

To an extent, there is a truism in this. There's a quote in medicine: "the patient is an expert in their condition." They live it day to day and truly know the ins-and-outs of whatever it is they have. However: this doesn't mean they're actually cognizant of the pathophysiology of their disease, or the prognosis or treatment. It just means you really have to believe them when they explain their symptoms.


whiskey_hotel_oscar

I mean I get it. Doctors are just people too, trying to figure out a complex problem without all the information they need. But the lack of trust is real. If all you've ever gotten from the healthcare system is debt, pain, dismissal, shame, and invalidation, wouldn't you be skeptical too? It's the reactionary lashing out of someone in pain and unheard. I feel it too sometimes after being undiagnosed with endometriosis for 8 years. Five doctors, and finally one who did surgery and said "Hmm. The one of the most common causes of menstrual pain is the problem." What was different about that last doctor? He didn't dismiss me, and I listened to him and followed his advise to eliminate other possibilities before he had to do surgery. I think the nuance that's missed is the relationship. Doctors are not servants dispensing meds, and the patient is not a problem. We're all people, and like everything else, we can solve problems when we're on the same page.


K-teki

This is about chronic illness, not vaccines, to be clear


snow-ghosts

At this point I am starting to consider medical professionals at least partly responsible for the antivaccine movement. I can't say it caused it, but continually telling sick women they are hysterical and making no real effort to treat them does nothing to inspire trust. I doubt the movement would be where it is now if people believed they could get competent, compassionate care from medical professionals.


mirask

I think this is a good point. I’m pro-vaxx and pro-science generally, but my god I’ve had some shit medical treatment over the years related to my reasonably rare medical condition. I probably do know more about it (because I’ve had to learn) than a doctor I met 5 minutes ago going way outside their specialism and thinking they can dismiss observable physical symptoms I’ve been living with and managing for 40+ years as “anxiety”.


snow-ghosts

Same. I too recognize the incredible health benefits of vaccines- I got to skip the debilitating childhood diseases my parents had to suffer. But at the same time I understand vaccine hesitancy. I have the benefit of being educated in science, so I can understand how vaccines work and how they keep populations healthy. Many people understand biology quite poorly, and had experiences with the medical field that are abusive at worst and exploitative at best. I feel like countering anti-vaccine narratives will take compassion towards those who feel neglected or harmed by the medical industry, which is something I have yet to see.


GaiasDotter

Yup. For example, I have cluster headaches, the periodic kind not the chronic luckily. I definitely know more about it than most general practitioners I have seen. The only doctor I see that know more about it than I do is my neurologist. I also have adhd and my GP definitely doesn’t know more than I do about that. Every doctor I say comments on the dosage of my adhd meds. As in negatively. They kind the dosage is too high. It’s not. I’m Barely functioning as is and if it wasn’t for the effect it had on my blood pressure my psychiatrist would have liked to increase it more. I know exactly where they get that idea from. It’s from the official information site on medications. And I do indeed have a higher dosage than the highest recommended one, thing is that the recommendations are for prepubescent children because adhd medications aren’t officially recommended for adults and I’m a 34 y/o woman not a 10 year old child. Obviously I need a higher dosage, I am fully grown after all. I take a much higher dosage of all medications than what’s recommended for a ten year old child, OTC pain meds, vitamins, cough medicine and so on. Because I’m a fully grown woman and not a small kid.


mandiekitty

1 hour lecture? I wish my doctors spent that much time on me 😂


kaths660

This has some validity when it comes to chronic conditions. A lifetime of experience is more extensive than a “Google search” and while medical training gives the doctor a unique insight, so does living your whole life in your particular body. Doctors and patients need to listen to and respect each other. When this process breaks down, yes, anti-vaxxers can be created. I bet a lot of them distrust doctors because they have a chronic condition and were constantly invalidated in the process of seeking treatment.


joesb

Nobody, not even the doctor, can tell you what you feel better than you. That doesn’t mean you know how to treat your condition though. I meant, if you knew it, why would you need to go see the doctor.


Anra7777

Oof. It took a year for the doctors to take my stomach problems seriously. Now more and more abnormal test results are coming out. If I hadn’t persisted that there was something wrong, I wouldn’t have been tested at all. But the doctors won’t call me back and tell me what the results are about, so I’m forced to use Google, and end up coming to scary conclusions on my own. I’m not saying Google is right, I’m saying just please talk to me and reassure me that it’s fixable.


rilesmcjiles

I'm sorry you're experiencing this. I'm sorry to say that you'll have to be a pain in their asses to get them to do their jobs. You could probably book with another specialist in the same field and ask them to request the records from the current doctors. I went through several doctors before I found a decent one. They're out there. At any rate, your best bet is to ride them until you get some kind of plan. So many diseases have better outcomes if diagnosed and managed early.


SPARKY358gaming

And what was it?


Anra7777

Still dunno. Google’s pointing toward liver disease, but as I said, the doctors aren’t talking to me. I’m not going to run around saying I have liver disease until I actually hear from the doctors.


SPARKY358gaming

Oof, hope you get proper help


Anra7777

Thanks.


James324285241990

To be fair, I did once have a doctor tell me that my autoimmune condition was "sometimes" an autoimmune condition. Like.... HIV is *sometimes* a virus? When you have certain conditions, conditions that aren't super common, and you end up with a God Doctor (those that think the MD somehow makes them omniscient) you *do* have to argue with them pretty aggressively at times. I can empathize with this screenshot


xen0m0rpheus

1 - this has nothing to do with vaccines 2 - doctors can sometimes be dismissive


yentcloud

Like SOMEtimes i agree with this because i have had doctors tell me things like "you can't feel an iud that's impossible" and low and behold i did feel it verry clearly during sex or when i had cramps. I am not the only one with this complaint too. From the 4 doctors i have had only one aknowledged that it even was possible to feel the iud.


sammay74

There’s a grain of truth there but health professionals have a healthy respect for the expert patient if practicing patient centred care. Collaboration not us and them!


Thats_My_Moo

I've had epilepsy for over 15 years, and will do for the rest of my life, but I can safely say that my doctor knows a lot more about the condition.


noxitide

Yes and no. An example is my psychiatrist. He has read thousands of times more psychiatry articles than I ever will in my life, he knows side-effects and percentages and outcomes that I just will never care about. But I also know what I am experiencing better than he does. It must be collaborative between us to get the best outcome - his vast knowledge and my honest experience. “This medication doesn’t make me tired, and when I went off it, I got super tired all the time for like six months after” “that is not what happens with that medication, very strange” Like, I know it’s strange. I can’t seem to have a normal response to medication to save my life. But it is what it is - and he listens to me, even if I wish he were less “you should be experiencing x not z”. And it’s going pretty well.


WorkResThrowAway

How does this have anything to with vaccines? What conditions does a patient live with for 20 years that can be treated after the fact with a vaccine? This is just hating on chronically ill people and worshipping the status quo of our fucked up medical system.


PsychoMouse

There is a huge difference living with a disease and actually understanding that disease. I was born with and have lived with Cystic Fibrosis for 34 years. That doesn’t mean I know or understand what medication, antibiotics, or treatments work best for it, or what genes it effects. All a doctor wants to do is help you, the best they can. The sick person in this post needs to lose the arrogance. Your google degree means nothing at the end of the day. They have done and do a lot more to help and understand your illness that is way more than a 1 hour lecture. Just look at all these idiots who think they understand how masks and vaccines work. The “sick” person is 100% wrong. You can offer insight and opinions to your doctor but don’t for a minute think you know more than them.


ShivasKratom3

This isnt actually totally wrong... especially if you arent their primary and dont know them. Should be a patient centered approach


SPARKY358gaming

DISCLAIMER: The og post was about anti-vax Yes, this can happen but the context is anti-vax in this case


saareadaar

You might want to provide that context because there is a problem in the medical community with dismissing patients and their experiences, especially if those patients are female and even moreso if they're POC. For example, it can take years for women to get a diagnosis for conditions like endometriosis as they're often dismissed as being over-dramatic or diagnosed with anxiety, etc.


SPARKY358gaming

Yeah


lokisilvertongue

And yet that context isn't anywhere in the post, so how did you expect anyone to know that?


bakingeyedoc

I guess I must be an expert mechanic since I drive my car more often than my mechanic


jordanjay29

And yet car issues can present in some circumstances that can't be replicated in a mechanic shop. So you can actually be familiar with a problem that the mechanic won't see in their shop simply because of the environment they work in. The problem is the expert here simply doesn't know what they don't know, and instead of being open to investigating the issue they just shut down the complaint completely. It's not that the complainant necessarily is the expert, it's just that they have a valid perspective from their own, actual experience that warrants further investigation.


GREENWOLF1337

Let's say there's a man named Bob, and ever since he was a child, he would have bathroom difficulties. His mom put essential oils in his stomach, but it never got better. Many years later, Bob still has problems in the bathroom, and decides to see a medical professional. The doc explains that he has IBS, and Bob goes "I've lived with it almost my entire life, therefore I know more about it"


Dorcustitanus

quora moment


Th4tRedditorII

Those are too different things. Your Doctor is nearly always going to be more of an expert on medical issues than you, unless you too are a medical professional. Listen to your Doctor. On the other hand, a patient does know themselves best. They know what pains/symptoms/feelings/etc. are or aren't normal for them, and any good Doctor should be using that to inform their decision-making. ... But that doesn't mean they know the extent of their illness or the best way to treat it. For example, when I had Appendicitis, I initially thought it was a REALLY bad stomach bug. Though when I described to the admitting Doctor all of my symptoms, he tested for and diagnosed me with the above. Thanks to his superior medical knowledge, I was able to be properly treated; which literally saved my life, as it had gone septic, unbeknownst to me.


throwaway1_x

Having a medical degree is not a cure for being a douche.


foundyetii

If people think all you get is 1 hour lectures on conditions in medicinal school then they are outrageously dumb


honeybunn09

My husband recently went to a doctor for a gagging problem he’s been having. The doctor straight up said “that’s weird” and pulled out her phone and googled his symptoms right there in front of him. Needless to say we aren’t ever going back.


Lets-Take-a-Moment

Doctor: Yes and that's why it took me an hour to explain to you all the problems you currently have


static-prince

Both are true though. I get doctors frustration with people who think they know everything because they googled a condition and I also get patient’s frustration with doctors assuming they know best what a patient needs all the time when they don’t really know the experience.