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nonasuch

It’s that John Adams quote, but hopefully Ukraine can speedrun it — “I must study politics and war that my sons may have liberty to study mathematics and philosophy. My sons ought to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, naval architecture, navigation, commerce and agriculture in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry, and porcelain."


CMDR_Agony_Aunt

I see John Adams played Civ.


blueberriessmoothie

Frankly, I don’t think he had much success. His quote suggests he was all into building barracks, waiting for his son to come over and build granary.


Avenger717

World champ.


GiediOne

At deity level! 👍


zyarva

This was his defense against rumor that he wad not refined enough for the job as amassador to France. He could not talk about art and music like Jefferson and Franklin.


Matta_G

Wow that’s the exact quote that came to my mind as well.


Dystronic

I totally agree. Ukraine is not just fighting Russia in this war, it will also have to fight to keep alive the hopeful spirit of its young democracy and avoid the slow erosion towards militarism, while still defending a 1400 mile long border shared with a mortal enemy. If they can strike that balance, I believe they will evolve into one of Europe's preeminent powers.


Sondermagpie

Russia will fade into the dredges that North Korea occupies. They will need and eye kept on then at all times but in the end they won't be thought of. They won't have a system to share their culture. They won't be considered. I truly hope that Ukraine becomes a shining light of commerce and prosperity the world speaks of with excitement and and anticipation. I hope it's culture inspires the free nations for generations.


[deleted]

> Russia will fade into the dredges that North Korea occupies. That's a stretch. Even the Soviet Union wasn't as isolated or its media as constrained as North Korea has been for decades. Even at the moment, with all the war propaganda and new legislation that are on, Youtube still works in Russia. The borders are not closed. People travel in both directions, they just can't fly to or from Western countries. I actually don't think that the Putin regime can keep people repressed indefinitely. That doesn't mean that the political system will necessarily get any better - Russia had arguably the most press freedom ever in its history during Yeltsin's term, and they still got Putin.


314rft

Honestly, Yeltsin was the most democratic leader Russia has ***ever*** had. And that really is beyond sad.


Sondermagpie

It's more my hope, I think. I alao can't see putin surviving much longer after war or really for long now. I could be wrong. I really hope I'm not :( they need change.


[deleted]

Well, from the crowning of the first tsar in Moscow in 1547 to 2022, they've had some sort of a working democracy arguably in 1992-2004 (dissolution of the Soviet Union to the Beslan school siege, which was used as a pretext to end regional elections). So that's 12 years out of 475. The current young generation has grown up during Putin's term with entirely rigged elections.


KinnX

It again shows the strength of Ukrainians. You have to be able to understand and live in kindness, unity, tolerance.... or there will be no true resolution. One of the telling signs is that, despite being in deadly war situation, the Ukrainians are constantly taking time out to help animals and the elderly. THAT is strength!


Palanstein

I remember last year people were laughing their asses off about the all inclusive, lgtb US military recruitment adds and they were comparing them with the very macho, all testosterone Russian recruitments ads. The end result was that the US military knew exactly what kind of people they needed to attract for this new kind of war, and the Russians basically lured knuckleheads.


AdhesivenessCivil581

If someone, with all of their heart, is willing to fight and die for their country who cares who they sleep with, what color their skin is or whether or not they have a penis.


3d_blunder

>who cares who they sleep with, what color their skin is or whether or not they have a penis. Conservatives. Wingers. Idiots who won't eat something unless it's covered in bacon. Guys who won't dance with their wives. Ammosexuals. Republicans. Stars-n-Bars enthusiasts. Bros.


AdhesivenessCivil581

So................orcs


3d_blunder

Dude, I get paid by the letter.


AdhesivenessCivil581

Ha!


Palanstein

Not my point but yeah


holla_snackbar

Defenders of freedom, democracy, anti-fascism, you fight for the human spirit to do these things. To blossom.


backtotheland76

Thank you for reminding us what this war is for, rather than just against. I for one am optimistic about Ukranes future. Yes there will be individuals who carry demons the rest of their lives. But the Ukrainian society, culture and spirit will prevail.


tomgz78

I think there’s a bright future for Ukraine. When they win this war - because its just a matter of time they’ll win this - they’re going to end up with a country in ruins but a stronger, more cohesive society that learned the hard way how to collaborate towards a common goal.


thespellbreaker

User "Red" below this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql20VQK1BFw


amitym

Well put. And if any further evidence is required... the ancient idea that greater capacity for wanton cruelty makes you the better fighter seems to have died in Ukraine's muddy springtime fields alongside the Kadryovites and others who espoused it. They came celebrating the vast cruelties they were prepared to unleash against Ukrainians... but one cannot even say that they will return having learned a different lesson. They will simply never return at all. It was volunteer citizens who inflicted that devastating loss. Not self-aggrandizing self-proclaimed warriors steeped in the myth of their own unstoppable bloody cruelty. Volunteer citizens with weapons provided out of friendship, earned through international relationship-building, acceptance of others, and other such allegedly "soft, weak" pursuits. Except not so soft or weak after all, eh?


Zipboom_games

“I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.” ​ Tolkien.


314rft

Ultra-masculine circles used to mock Ukraine and the west for being effeminate and weak, and used to praise Russia for being string and a symbol of raw masculinity. Well look how well that raw masculinity worked out for Russia. So called "masculine" Russians are being obliterated by the so called "effiminate" Ukrainians, and the "oh so masculine" Putin is hiding behind a long table in a bunker while the "literal drag queen" (referencing that one music video he was in) Zelenskyy is still in Kyiv to this day.


Terrible-Cranberry79

I'm glad Eurovision happened now. All of Europe resonating with Ukrainian soft power.


Bgratz1977

The war will be over in a few weeks/months But sure, the horror many people perceived will follow them their whole life. So in the end, and i know its sounds sappy, in the end it will be Love that alone can end the war.


mberrong

You are over optimistic, IMO. This is going to go on for a long long time. Essentially it has been happening for the past 8 years but on a smaller scale. Ukraine has years to go, I’m afraid. Alas, it will then also take decades of “peace” and prosperity to rebuild the psyche of future generations as the ones involved now will carry trauma like a sunburn for the rest of their lives.


HFirkin

While I agree that believing in a swift resolution to the conflict is optimistic, given that it has actually been a conflict since 2014, I wonder about this: >the ones involved now will carry trauma like a sunburn for the rest of their lives. So here's the thing: [some people were capable of transmuting their experience of being inmates in a literal concentration camp into something useful](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4069.Man_s_Search_for_Meaning), such that there had been trauma but out of that trauma emerged what a specialist might call "[post-traumatic growth](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/post-traumatic-growth)" instead of PTSD. Further, Europe overall did in fact transfer relatively quickly from World War II to rebuilding itself - people didn't just remain in a stupor, rocking back and forth with their unseeing eyes transfixed on the horrors of the past. Based on both of these I'd be cautious about diagnosing a whole generation with irresolvable trauma. Some people who directly saw or experienced the worst of the war? Sure. But overall I wonder if in this case the common use of the word "trauma" isn't doing us a disservice: diagnosing people as irreparably broken before you see how they fared even though from a professional perspective "trauma" is simply "injury" (here "mental injury") that can resolve to different degrees.


mberrong

In your statement, there is optimism and hope. Perhaps we all (myself included) need to not lose sight of that. Thanks.


StoicRetention

that’s quite profound


marketrevolution12

This is not a total destruction of Ukraine, but a chance to rebuild it into a nation with its own identity, it’s own architecture, and strengthen its culture and to remove the centuries of Russian/soviet oppression and relics


papabear244

When the war is over, not only will the Ukrainians have to rebuild their cities but to rebuild their lives. It’s a great opportunity for the west to send in physical therapists and psychologists to work. They would be the next wave of volunteers. There is a lot of bodies and minds to heal.


Ok_Bad8531

There is the saying "Won the war, lost the peace". Ukraine must take care to not only repell Russia's invasion, but to rebuild a Ukraine that people want to live in.


oldgranola

Post victory will start the real battle for Ukraine. I hope she can emerge intact and keep moving in a healthy inclusive democratic direction rather than succumbing to hate and the damage of war.


Salty_Competition_84

nicely expressed


Comms

Russia was crippled by the sanctions because they can't make anything domestically. Everything even remotely complex and sophisticated required parts, tooling, and tech from other countries. If Ukraine wants to thrive into the future it has to continue to be a place where people want to build and create.


[deleted]

[удалено]


mberrong

I believe OP’s point was it takes more than brute force and victory in battle to rebuild a nation. Not that the finer things in life (art, poetry, etc) is what will win the war at hand. But it WILL win the battle of trauma when this war ends.


androgp

Exactly. People need more things in life than just a battlefield.


AdhesivenessCivil581

Those things create a culture that is worth fighting for.