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SynnerSaint

>Among many cares he (Gandalf) was troubled in mind by the perilous state of the North; because he knew then already that Sauron was plotting war, and intended, as soon as he felt strong enough, to attack Rivendell. But to resist any attempt from the East to regain the lands of Angmar and the northern passes in the mountains there were now only the Dwarves of the Iron Hills. And beyond them lay the desolation of the Dragon. **The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect.** How then could the end of Smaug be achieved? > >LotR - Appendix A - III Durin's Folk (emphasis mine)


AbacusWizard

When in doubt, check the appendices. :–)


[deleted]

thx :)


BwanaAzungu

I think we can do better than this :) This doesn't exactly say Smaug would answer to Sauron, just that Sauron would use him. The Dragons were originally part of Morgoth's forces, and seemed to answer to him. Although it appears to me Glaurung (Children of Húrin) was just "set loose" at some point, and choose to fuck with people for his own entertainment. Even gathered a hoard in the ruins of ~~Doriath~~ Nargothrond. So even under Morgoth, dragons seemed to act with autonomy (and ego). Although arguably Morgoth simply designed them to "be dicks in general", gather hoards, etc., and that was their intended purpose. Sauron is a Maia and was Morgoth's lieutenant. Dragons have too big an ego, and too much pride, to answer to the likes of Sauron. I'd say they wouldn't answer to him. But Sauron is a trickster and deceiver. So he would probably cut a deal with Smaug to his own benefit.


k3ttch

It was Nargothrond, IIRC, where Glaurung established a hoard.


BwanaAzungu

Thanks, I keep mixing those up


k3ttch

Basically the *other* underground elven city built with Dwarven help.


BillbabbleBosterbird

Yes. It also has the title of being the *other* super secret elven kingdom, apart from Gondolin.


JustARandomGuy_71

It is like with Shelob. Sauron did use her, but she 'didn't own him' to put it as Tolkien. One thing I always wondered is why Sauron didn't send someone to the north to hire some other dragon if he could make use Smaug? I doubt he was the last one of his kind, even if probably he was the stronger, and even a small dragon could be very useful. And my answer is that he didn't consider it worth the effort. As you put it, dragons are too stubborn and prideful. They worked for Morgoth, and he was a) their creator and b) a Valar. And even with him, they mostly acted whatever way they wanted. Sauron they would just ignore, if not attack, and he knows it.


BwanaAzungu

>It is like with Shelob. Sauron did use her, but she 'didn't own him' to put it as Tolkien. *Yes* exactly that energy, thank you >They worked for Morgoth, and he was a) their creator and b) a Valar. Well actually, Morgoth was not counted among the Valar; not even when his name was Melkor. >And my answer is that he didn't consider it worth the effort. As you put it, dragons are too stubborn and prideful. They worked for Morgoth, and he was a) their creator and b) a Valar. And even with him, they mostly acted whatever way they wanted. Yeah, if Fire Drakes were to travel south, they would've done so already. Since they didn't, it's probably not worth the effort trying to persuade them. Smaug was already holed up in Erebor. The problem wasn't "the existential evil of Smaug"; he was just the ruling entity of a strategically important location, and likely to align with the enemy.


Kabti-ilani-Marduk

> But Sauron is a trickster and deceiver. So he would probably cut a deal with Smaug to his own benefit. "Yo dude I heard Minas Tirith's got vaults for days go hit that city-chick up she's dfa"


JustARandomGuy_71

That is not even necessary. With Smaug gone and the largest part of orcs population in the misty mountains gone now there is a strong dwarven kingdom and a strong human kingdom and of course the Mirkwood elves. Sauron had to send a large part of his army there to keep them busy and stop them to send help to Gondor. With Smaug alive he could have spared that army and use it in some other way. Also, he would have a lot of extra orcs around to use as he thought better (maybe attack Lothlorien and Rivendell?). The simple presence of Smaug, even if he did nothing but sit in the Lone Mountain, would have made things much easier for Sauron.


TheShadowKick

Lothlorien did come under attack, but I doubt Rivendell would be attacked until Gondor and Rohan fell, since those nations were sort of in the way for any force that wanted to go west of the Misty Mountains.


wildeye-eleven

Didn’t Rivendell have some kind of magic over it to ward off orcs? I remember Bilbo saying he could sense magic there but I can’t remember if the book was written that way.


BonHed

Elrond had Vilya, one of the 3 Elven Rings. It probably gave power over healing and preservation, and likely gave him some control over the waters of the Bruinen. Both Rivendel and Lothlorien were protected by the power of the Rings, and so orcs would not go into them without great need or until Sauron had the One Ring back. Everyone was sorta surprised that the Nazgul actually dared enter the waters of the Bruinen. It showed their desperation to get the One Ring, and informed them that Sauron was on the move for reals.


wildeye-eleven

This was so informative! Thanks.


evinta

The same hubris that makes Smaug that proud would make it easier. Sauron tricked the Numenoreans at the height of their power, and the Noldor. The Noldor, after they had already had discord sowed among them by sweet voiced lies once. It's weird to argue this when a central premise of the story is that tricking Sauron, as if evil and power and pride make one immune to it.


Porkenstein

> Sauron is a Maia and was Morgoth's lieutenant. Dragons have too big an ego, and too much pride, to answer to the likes of Sauron. I'd say they wouldn't answer to him. > But Sauron is a trickster and deceiver. So he would probably cut a deal with Smaug to his own benefit. /thread


fatkiddown

“Now, let’s run with this..” -Peter Jackson


Jabberwock_da_wock

“Hmmm now only if I could figure out a way to involve Legolas…”


Xyvexa

Legs and ass what do your milf eyes see?


SarHavelock

They've turned due north, they're taking the sperms to Ovargard!


stefan92293

In _Unfinished Tales_ there is a section, _The Quest for Erebor_, where Gandalf speaks out on his motivation for pursuing that quest. One of the key factors for him was indeed worrying about what would happen if Sauron got to Smaug and used him to attack his enemies.


-the-Bell-Witch-

I love Lord of the Rings “what ifs”. Like, what if Thorin’s quest had failed, Sauron forged an alliance with Smaug and there was a fucking dragon at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields? It would have been a slaughter.


[deleted]

thank you very much for this insight :) i'm still about to read more of his work aside from Hobbit and the book. Appendices and Silmarillion are at hand ;D


Picklesadog

I highly recommend getting Unfinished Tales and read the 3rd Age section. It expands on events in and around LoTR. The part mentioned above is Gandalf telling the behind the scenes story of the Hobbit to Frodo, Merry, Pippin, and Gimli in Gondor after the War.


[deleted]

Eventually i will read all of it i guess😊


Picklesadog

Unfinished Tales is just a collection of stories, so no need to read it in order. I'm mostly interested in the Third Age so I only read that part (though I will eventually read the rest as well.)


ricin05

Even if he wouldn't have taken direct orders from Sauron, they would definitely have been allies, Sauron would have promised Smaug more treasure in return for his help, he would probably have been easily bought like that. I think Smaug would have taken direction from Sauron, but not orders. When Gandalf fears them working together I think this is what he meant.


danjvelker

Another angle is that the chaos and destruction unleashed by Sauron would provide a perfect opportunity for Smaug to further prey on a weakened Middle-earth. He wouldn't need to 'answer' to Sauron and Sauron wouldn't need him to; both would capitalize off the work of the other and be perfectly content.


AbacusWizard

A destructive force like that you don't even need to give it orders; you just point it in the right general direction and hit "go."


ricin05

Smaug was a lot more intelligent than that. He would require some convincing to work with Sauron and he'd have a price.


Not_My_Emperor

I just can't think of any price Smaug would ask for that Sauron would be unwilling to pay with the one glaring exception. However the ring doesn't seem to effect him at all. Granted, he's only around it for a short time, but other characters obviously don't need to be around it for that long in order for it work on them. Hypothetically though if the dwarves and Bilbo had failed and the Ring had just ended up in his hoard for years until Sauron got around to getting to Smaug, I do wonder how that would have played out. We know he accounts for every single piece of his treasure, so it's not like a Nazgul could have wandered in, seen it/felt it's presence, and taken it without his knowledge. That would have put Sauron in a really interesting position, as I don't know if he would have had anything that could effectively take on Smaug, and some thrush isn't about to go and tell any orc archers about Smaug's weakness. I'm sure there's SOMETHING Sauron could have done given who he is, but I just can't think of anything he had in his pocket that would have gotten the Ring back in this situation.


eternalsage

Interesting thought. I like the alternate history idea here. No matter what this would have been a bad timeline (for the Free Peoples) but it would definitely have been a very interesting power struggle, to say the least. Smaug would not have been invincible, though. In the First Age more powerful dragons than he were brought down in single combat, so its not inconceivable that the 9 together could not have just taken it by force. Most likely, Sauron's trade would have been for Smaug's life, truth be told.


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Dunmuse

I tend to agree, but Moria probably had close to that many dwarves and it fell to a single Balrog.


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Dunmuse

Yeah... but the dwarves in Moria had access to mithril. You would think they had some kind of elite guard that was decked out in the stuff; enough to make them formidable enough to face a balrog. Plus, it was just taller than a man, not some dinosaur sized dragon. If the dwarves had faced Glaurung before they discovered mithril, you would think that with it they would have the ability to be nigh impervious to a balrog.


Sunwestcome

I agree with you. I always found it a bit strange that a single elf can kill a balrog in the first age, but a 100,000 dwarves can't in the 3rd. Never really made much sense to me


Dunmuse

Same. I know Tolkien retconned his original idea of balrogs power, but it still didn't make much sense.


Grimbauld

Dwarves aren’t tough thuds they’re tiny and easy for an amazing beautiful fire drake like great Smaug


Dunmuse

Actually, Aule made dwarves exceptionally tough to withstand Morgoth's antics. They're stronger and able to endure more than men.


Grimbauld

They got slapped by a low level Balrog and Aragorn didn’t so….


Dunmuse

Wtf are you talking about? You mean when Aragon ran away from the balrog?


SonnyC_50

Low level?


un4given_orc

But The One Ring impact may be easily retconned: e. g. Thorin being corrupted not only by dragon curse but also a proximity of the ring. Other Dwarves were quite bad-tempered during the quest too.


GeraltofRivvia

The rings of power hold very low corruption abilities towards Dwarves especially when they're not even carrying one, so I don't think they were effected.


un4given_orc

Thorin's company had no Dwarven rings at all. Thorin didn't get it from Thrain. However the One Ring affected everyone except Bombadil, especially those who desired power like Thorin.


deefop

Idk... Literally tens of thousands of orcs storming smaugs horde would probably do the trick if it came to that


Major_Cause

Maybe. But Smaug was able to clear Erebor of 10s of thousands of dwarves when he took possession. Smaug was huge, and his breath was is probably the most effective mob wiper in the last six millennia by then.


a-snakey

"I will gift you a very special ring, a precious ring."


AbacusWizard

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die Also one for a dragon And one for the Dark Lord on his dark throne…


Grimbauld

This doesn’t rhyme correctly


AbacusWizard

Well, not in English.


ToadLoaners

Never before has a voice uttered the words of that tongue here...


laldy

"Smaug...Smash..."


[deleted]

but without at least some direction he would cause mayhem everywehre also in the lines of Sauron himself. Just to rouse him and hope for the best could be a dangerous path to tread.


[deleted]

this i can live with :D


a_guy_called_craig

Despite Gandalfs reasoning which we're all aware of I don't believe that's what OP is asking. I believe Smaug would ultimately choose to work with Sauron cos he's a bit of an evil twat to say the least but I don't believe he could be compelled to if for whatever reason he chose to stay at Erebor. We know how much agency and cunning Smaug has so ultimately the choice, I believe, would be completely his.


[deleted]

good point :)


AfternoonTeaWithMrB

Smaug could have been bought very simply. Sauron has the wealth of the East and the Soith entirely at his command, as well as three dwarven rings of power to tempt Smaug. Wealth is nothing to Sauron other than a means to an end. Send a huge caravan of gold filled wagons headed by the Mouth of Sauron, state that this is a small taste of what Sauron can offer, needle that Smaug is wasting his true potential by sleeping in a mountain of treasure while a world of treasure waits to be plundered, a hit at his pride by speaking of joining the ranks of Ancalagon and Galruung, and Smaug would probably mull it over a couple days and burst forth from Erebor, smoke Lake Town (lest they get ideas while he’s away) and fly south to Barad Dur.


loklanc

Ah well no danger then, when Smaug attacks Lake Town, Bard's grandson Brand will shoot him with one of those magic arrows his family keep as heirlooms.


_Gengar_

This remembers me of *The Battle for Middle Earth 2*'s campaign where the Mouth of Sauron goes north to the Withered Heath to make a deal with a dragon. Obviously non-canon stuff, but fun stuff.


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_Gengar_

I never played War in the North, but I think both are correct. In BFME2 the dragon is named Drogoth. Its a hero for the Goblin faction.


kiwi_rozzers

I think it likely that Sauron could have used Smaug. Perhaps Smaug would not have directly taken orders from Sauron, but I do think that Sauron knew how to speak Smaug's language, in a sense. More importantly, though, with Smaug occupying Erebor, that is one less stronghold for the Free Peoples and one less area that Sauron has to worry about. After all, the Men of Lake Town could hardly send reinforcements to Gondor if they have to worry about defending their own homes from the dragon! And of course there would be no Dwarves to be found in that area. Just by occupying the Lonely Mountain, Smaug would be de facto aiding Sauron.


Mavakor

I imagine they could have had a relationship similar to the one Sauron had with Shelob. Not in direct partnership but possibly acting in a mutually beneficial fashion


fatkiddown

This. Sauron was a great being of ancient manipulations and would have found a trigger to get Smaug’s help.


MartinLannister

But Shelob Is actually More like a pet since her savage nature. Smaug is an intelligent and prideful being


JoltinJoe92

That’s where I’m confused on if/how Sauron could get Smaug to work with him. I think Smaug is like the dwarves, they care for nothing but their hoards of gold and riches. With Smaug being pretty intelligent, I’d think he knew he was sitting on the largest stockpile of gold and plunder in Middle Earth. Sauron could offer him something but Smaug might not even care or entertain him because he knows what he’s got. On the other hand, let’s say Sauron does convince Smaug, what is to say he would actually follow through? Smaug might get the idea that as soon as he leaves Erebor someone is going to sneak in and steal his treasure.


MartinLannister

Smaug is intelligent. He Is also a greedy bastard. The wealth of Erebor Is not that immense in the books as the movies, but it's quite impressive. Sauron has a ridiculous amount of resources and money to maintain his armies, meaning he could duplicate Erebor's wealth. He even could offer him two or three of the Seven dwarf Rings of Power. A very good deal for a dragon. With that in mind he could not care less for Erebor, he would recover it later. Or even ask Sauron for a small company of Orcs to guard Erebor in it's absense. Im sure Smaug would be a General equal to the Nazgul, with the mission to torment and set on fire the realms of dwarves and wood elves. Later, he would lead Mordor's armies to Rivendell and burn it to the ashes to avenge his fellow dragon kin.


BylenS

There is also the possibility Saruman could manipulate Smaug. He was a great manipulator. All it would have taken was to plant an idea in Smaug's brain that Lake Town was coming for him. In unfinished tales it says that Gandalf, for most of the time was focused on the elven strongholds. He never really spent time even thinking about Gondor, and rarely went there. He was sure it was the elves that would be attacked and he knew Smaug could be a deciding factor in that war. He felt that the defeat at Erebor swayed Saruman from the north, away from the elven and dwarven strong holds and made him focus more on the south where he felt his opponents were weaker. Only when Gandalf saw that Saruman had changed his focus to the south did Gandalf start paying attention to Rohan and Gondor.


Drummk

Gandalf says: >The Dragon Sauron might use with terrible effect. Which suggests Smaug would have taken Sauron's orders.


willy_quixote

*Might* use with terrible effect. Which suggests Smaug *may* have taken Sauron's orders.


[deleted]

it suggest but thats what i mean. You cant know for sure. Smaug does not seem like someone or somethink taking orders from anyone. We know there are beeings being totally uneffected by the ring like Tom Bombadil.


Bleak_Infinitive

I see two options here: 1) Sauron is the greatest servant of Morgoth. We know that he can extend his will and psychically enslave armies of orcs across Middle Earth. Perhaps he can do that with all of master's handiwork, like dragons. 2) 3D chess. Smaug can wreak havoc across his territory while Sauron uses this to his advantage. He can't order the dragon to do X or Y, but he can predict Smaug's movements and habits and passively control him. Compare this to how Sauron uses Shelob in the mountain pass near Minas Morgul.


BylenS

And Ungoliant and Shelob. Saruman's relationship with Smaug would probably be much like Morgoth's relationship with Ungoliant.


MartinLannister

Saruman?


BylenS

No morgoth


RedEclipse47

All dragons are Maiar spirits corrupted by Melkor, just like the Balrogs. Sauron isn't only chief among all the Maiar (even far greater then the likes of Gandalf and Saruman) he is also Melkor's second in command. Sauron would have bent Smaug to his will one way or another.


SynnerSaint

>All dragons are Maiar spirits corrupted by Melkor Has that ever been confirmed? I thought the whole nature/origins of dragons and how they reproduce is one of Tolkien's grey areas (like orcs)


RedEclipse47

It's still up for debate sure. However Morgoth was involved in the creation of the dragons. Morgoth doesn't posses the Secret Fire thus cannot create only corrupt beings Eru had already created. Whilst some dragons like Smaug might be decedents of these first dragons and not directly a Maia spirit that essence still runs trough him. Even if all of the above is proven to be not true it still comes down to who has the greatest power of will and that would be Sauron.


SynnerSaint

Your first paragraph makes a lot of sense and I completely agree with your second paragraph


MechanicIcy6832

Maybe he could've done so with Durin's Bane as well.


bitetheasp

Well that's always a scary thought...


Happier_

Do you have a source on Sauron being "chief among all the Maiar"? I know he is referred to as chief of the servants of Morgoth, but that doesn't necessarily mean he is chief among all the Maiar. He has to contend with Ossë, Melian, Eönwë, Arien etc...


cellocaster

Gonna need a citation for that one


canadatrasher

I don't believe Sauron could directly command Smaug. But he could manipulate/use it in some way.


Yamureska

"Smaug?" "Yes, Sauron?" "You know how Turin killed Glaurung and and Tuor's son Eärendil killed Ancalagon?" "How could I forget?" "Eärendil's son Elrond and some royal descendant of his other son Elros are still out there. Want some payback?" "Hell yeah!"


Dunmuse

Maybe. Smaug didn't seem like he cared about anyone or anything other than himself. "Hey Smaug, want to risk going against elvish archers who could spot your weakness and hit it with arrows?" "Nah, happy to sit on this enormous pile of gold"


Lawlcopt0r

There is also the fact that in the absence of Smaug, the lonely mountain could become a powerful dwarven civilisation again, and though it isn't shown directly Sauron had to dedicate some of his forces to keep them in the north, making him unable to throw everything he had at Gondor


GeraltofRivvia

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe in the appendix of the books it's said that Saurons army in the North was even bigger than the one in the south.


Bobbafitz

Look out the youtube channel nerd of the ring. They have a video about that. It is really well made.


XenophonSoulis

Sauron wasn't really part of the story when Tolkien wrote the Hobbit, so it was not included, but it was mentioned by Tolkien in hindsight in the Appendices and in the Unfinished Tales as others wrote, so it wasn't a bad call to include it in the movie.


cejmp

Gandalf was concerned about Sauron being able to use Smaug to his ends, it's a part of the scheming. It's in Unfinished Tales, The Quest for Erebor.


KaiDaniel1966

I don’t know if Tolkien himself said this but I do know dragons were the contrivance of Melkor (Morgoth). Probably from fallen Maiar much like Balrogs and Sauron himself are.


[deleted]

Did gandalf really think Thorin could kill Smaug? Seems like he sent them on a suicide mission.


Reggie_Barclay

Seemed like it and yet it worked because Gandalf is a wizard. And we all know about meddling in the affairs of wizards.


Cavewoman22

Knowing how important getting rid of the dragon was for the future of ME, it seems really strange that Gandalf would choose a hobbit of all people for the job. It must've been like a real Hail Mary for him, even if somehow felt right.


Maccabee2

Not just any hobbit though. He was the son of the remarkable Belladonna Took.


TheDorkNite1

Overall, just having Erebor and Dale be a "force" that Sauron would need to deal with is enough of a reason, so killing Smaug goes along with that. They don't need to be mutually exclusive. But I think Smaug might have definitely been a major hindrance in the War of the Ring regardless.


PhilipDeGoudvis

Jumping on the trend here, but I don't think Smaug would have taken orders from Sauron. Not that Smaug is in any way stronger that Sauron, just that direct control, as he had over Orcs and Trolls, would not be possible. But Sauron could still use him. Spreading rumours about Rivendell or Lorien containing vast riches for example, until Smaug couldn't resist the temptation any longer and attacked those places. Manipulating rather than controlling him. I think that was what Tolkien ment with 'use to terrible effect.'


arnoldwhite

> Not that Smaug is in any way stronger that Sauron, just that direct control Isn't he though? Smaug is a dragon the size of a 747 with fire that can melt stone. Sauron was once killed by a dog. Sauron is a manipulative strategist, not a fighter. His powers are more subtle. It doesn't mean his physical form wouldn't absolutely be crushed if Smaug would decide to like sit on him.


zaparthes

> Sauron was once killed by a dog. Kindly refrain from insinuating that the great Huan, Hound of Valinor, longtime companion of no less than Oromë the Hunter, Lord of Forests, was just "a dog."


PhilipDeGoudvis

I didn't mean so much that Sauron beats Smaug in a 1v1, although I think he would. I ment that Smaug is not a competitor to Sauron, as some people suggest here.


pchees

Sauron: Pssssst Smaug. I've got 20 mountains full of gold for you if you join with me and wipe out everyone. What do you say? Ooo. And you can eat them all as well. Smaug: You had me at Gold


roacsonofcarc

It is safe to say that Smaug had no loyalty in him to anyone but himself. He would have asked "What's in it for Me?" But Sauron might have had an answer.


Telcontar86

Well I don't know if I'd qualify it as taking orders, but they definitely would have worked together. Sure Smaug would've demanded spoils but Sauron would gladly have allowed it to have the mightiest dragon of the Age working for his benefit. Peak 2nd Age Sauron (who is "effectively greater" than Morgoth was at the end of the 1st Age) _might_ have been able to order Smaug around. Big freaking "might" though. Now if the alliance would have lasted is another matter altogether. Sauron is technically greater than most dragons (probably not the greatest of them) but his power is not purely destructive in nature like Smaug's is. He'd probably have a backup plan in case his deal with Smaug went sideways since he'd probably not be able to deal with a rogue Smaug in direct combat (fire resistance would be very helpful though lol)


Dunmuse

How is SA Sauron effectively greater than Morgoth?


Telcontar86

Tolkien stated it in a letter It's important to note that we're talking about Morgoth in the closing years of the 1st Age, not even when he joined Ungoliant to attack the Trees. The Silmarillion states that when the Valar entered Arda to perform their labors, that other spirits joined them, some lesser, some nigh as great as they were. Considering he became a second Dark Lord, I'd say Sauron fits the bill as one of these "Greater Maia", that's just a bit of speculation on my part. But it's supported by the statement that while Sauron wore the One Ring that his power on Earth was actually _enhanced_ and I'd say this was what made peak 2nd Age Sauron "greater, effectively", than the end of the 1st Age Morgoth. Sauron used his much lesser (in their beginnings) native power on the One Ring, which enhanced and focused his power while he wore it. Melkor expended his (originally nigh omnipotent) power to mar Arda and twist existing creatures into monsters, but in the end became permenately incarnate and couldn't even defend himself. We don't know how much Sauron had surpassed his former master (or how much the One enhanced Sauron's power) as Tolkien had no interest in power levels, but it's both a statement to how far Sauron had risen, and how far Melkor had fallen


Reggie_Barclay

Which letter? I’d like to read up on it.


Dunmuse

Considering Sauron was slain by Elendin and Gil-galad, and Morgoth defeated Fingolfin a hundred years before the end of the First Age, I don't think Sauron was anywhere close to the power of Morgoth.


Telcontar86

Last Alliance Sauron =/= peak 2nd Age Sauron; Gil-galad and Elendil overthrew a Sauron who had been "confounded" by the Drowning of Numenor, which of course he was caught in. He had invested a great deal of power into the corruption of Numenor, and had lost his fair form in the process. He was still recuperating his strength and dominion when the War of the Last Alliance was waged. Tolkien on both matters: >But to achieve this he had been obliged to let a great part of his own inherent power (a frequent and very significant motive in myth and fairy-story) pass into the One Ring. While he wore it, his power on earth was actually _enhanced_. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. >Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others.  >Sauron was, of course, 'confounded' by the disaster, and diminished (having expended enormous energy in the corruption of Númenor). He needed time for his own bodily rehabilitation, and for gaining control over his former subjects. He was attacked by Gil-galad and Elendil before his new domination was fully established.


Dunmuse

Effectively, meaning that he faced a lessor foe. Remember, it was only through the intervention of the Valar themselves, rending and destroying a huge landmass in the process, that Morgoth was finally defeated.


Telcontar86

That was the host of the Valar, not the Valar themselves. Which is why Sauron tried to repent to Eönwë after the War of Wrath. If the Valar had been involved directly on Arda why would Eönwë bid Sauron to return to Valinor to repent to the Valar? Could have just done it right there. The War of Wrath lasted 40 years because Morgoth's legions (and surprise it's m'fing flying dragons!) were so vast and the War sank the entire continent. In the end Morgoth fled and begged for mercy without putting up a fight. While you're right that Sauron never had to contend with an army of Maiar and high elves while he was the second Dark Lord, calling Gil-galad and Elendil "lesser" is kind of like calling Huan "Just a dog" imo


Dunmuse

Lesser meaning not as great. It's not an insult, it's just the truth. Gil-galad was of lesser potence than Fingolfin, Feanor, Finrod or the other older Noldor and Elendil wasn't as steadfast and mighty as Tuor or Beren.


Telcontar86

You know what, that's fair. Finrod did lose to Sauron in the 1st Age in that Battle of Song (The Tale of Beren and Luthien is so freaking good) but your point is taken. 🤔 didn't Tolkien say somewhere that Galadriel is a peer of Feanor? Makes her being around in the 3rd Age a pretty big deal considering


Dunmuse

"Galadriel was the greatest of the Noldor, except Feanor maybe, though she was wiser than he, and her wisdom increased with the long years." Yeah it does.


UrukHaiSithLord

Sauron didn't need the Gold, and the Dwarves, men, and Elves did. I think this would have been an easy strategy for Sauron to manipulate Smaug to eliminate most of his enemies for him


DangerousTable

Simple answer: I don't think so. Dragons and Balrogs were aligned to Melkor. Not Sauron, in which they were peers.


AverageHorribleHuman

I think eventually Smaug would want the spoils of war that Sauron would be amassing through conquest, would be a cool fight


MTknowsit

You don't have to give someone orders to use them effectively. All you need to do is understand their nature and deploy their strengths to your advantage.


ebriose

Dragons were beneath Maiar so Sauron could have bent Smaug to his will (whereas e.g. Durin's Bane would at least notionally be independent and possibly have his own agenda contrary to Sauron's). Gandalf mentions in his conversation in Frodo's house that no dragon, however evil, would dare harm the One Ring, which I took to mean it was powerful enough to control them.


DangerousTable

Longer answer: Smaug doesn't answer to Sauron, but I think it would be a bad idea for him to be around during the War of the Ring. Smaug would definitely exploit shit and get into some shenanigans in the free people's disfavor. It also gives one less target for Sauron to attack. He doesn't have to worry about attacking Erebor/Dale and can focus fire on the Woodland Realm. Who knows, but with the freed up forces, maybe his attacks in the north are much more successful. And if so maybe Smaug joins in as a opportunist / anti-Eagle for fun and profit.


aro-ace-outer-space2

Hmm, he would definitely have answered to Melkor (Sauron's old boss, creator of dragons), and I feel like it's certainly a possibility, but there's no way to say for sure. That being said, Sauron *was* Melkor's lieutenant, so I feel like the chances are good? And it was defo a possibility they were worried about. And in terms of power, well...Smaug may be a dragon, but he's the smallest of the bunch, and Sauron is a *god*. A minor god, to be sure, and vastly weakened from millennia of fighting, but still a god. He helped create the universe, he was originally a servant of Aulë before he went over to Melkor, and he caused so much trouble that he managed to get an entire island civilization sunk, so, ya know... It really helps to read the Silmarillion if you want to understand Sauron and the level of power he's at.


Fedorchik

Most likely yes. Dragons being one of the Morgott's creation are expected to answer to Sauron. Also, Gandalf wouldn't set up all the things in motion to make Smaug dead if it wasn't the case xD


GarnetTheDwarf

One is inclined to think that Sauron (Annatar), who deceived the leadership of Numenor, could have managed to manipulate the seething resentment of a mere dragon. Kinda tots in his zone.


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Dunmuse

Smaug didn't serve Morgoth. Morgoth was gone long before Smaug was around.


JakeFromSttFarm

Ah, my mistake then. Still, all dragons served Morgoth. So the point still sort of works, although this new info adds another layer of complexity as to why it wouldn’t happen.


cejmp

Smaug was born in the SA in the Withered Heath.


Oldhippie52

The dark lord is actually Morgoth, who made the dragons, orcs, etc... So yes Smaug did what Morgoth wished. Now, would Smaug answer to Sauron? I think he would as Sauron was a lot more powerful than a dragon, I believe. After all, Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, Sauron (and Bobadil, I believe) were extremely potent wizards and existed outside middle Earth, whereas Smaug was a creature of middle Earth.


Equivalent-Toe-3463

Sorry but how is Sauron more powerful then Smaug? I mean i get it, he has army but if we talkin 1 vs 1 no way that Sauron win. Smaug is fuckin dragon who can fly, has claws, sharp teeth, fire, wings and tail. 1 vs 1 what Will Sauron do to him? Cmmon ne serious. And dragon are inteligent. And you said Gandalf so why he not fighting against Smaug? Maybe because 1 vs 1 he will be destroyed


Oldhippie52

Yes Smaug would be destroyed by any of the wizards as the Istari were Maia after all. The dragon is some corrupted being by Melkor and of this world while Maia are powerful mystic entities not of this world. Sauron or any of them would simply pulp Smaug with their powers. The balrog gave Gandalf so much trouble because it was also not of this world, a Maia that took that form to serve Melkor (I guess).