Amazon’s Ring is the largest civilian surveillance network the US has ever seen

Amazon’s Ring is the largest civilian surveillance network the US has ever seen


You can integrate Ring into Home Assistant and block incoming/outgoing connections with Pi-hole. You gotta be pretty techy though. Not for everyone




Amazon devices automatically try to connect to any open wifi network in order to exfiltrate the precious, precious data. You can protect your network, but if your neighbor accidentally opens something up? If someone walks by with an unsecured wifi? In range of a local starbucks? Your data finds its way to Amazon.


Imagine if amazon had a [bunch of vehicles](https://www.digitalcommerce360.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/shutterstock_1711975363-2.jpg) with wifi hotspots in them...


Great, now I'm a conspiracy theorist.


Not a conspiracy theory if it’s not secret


Yes it is. Conspiracy means people working together to do something bad. Doesn't have to be secret.


How about: It's not a theory if it's not secret?




Not a theory until the hypothesis has been tested many times


What if Amazon had their [own router](https://eero.com) EDIT: removing “echo”


Why is there an echo in here in here?


Dental plan, Lisa needs braces, ^(Dental plan, Lisa needs braces)


Moe. Moe. Moe. Moe. Moe.


Nothing at all, nothing at all


Thats Amazon Echo^tm to you


And somehow they had reason to frequently drive by... 🤔


Google also does this with their street view vehicles. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2010/may/15/google-admits-storing-private-data "Google's Street View cars are fitted with antennas that scan local wifi networks and use the data for its location services." They collect both SSID's and Mac addresses, they were also found to be "accidently" collecting payload data passed through unsecured wifi networks.


They've done that from the start. Pretty sure they stopped collecting extra data when they were caught. They aren't driving around with open internet access though.


As a coder, you don't accidentally do something to that degree. You had to design the system, write and debug the code, figure out how to acquire and store that data, test it, and then deploy the system nationwide and maintain it. That's like accidentally building the Titanic, or accidentally have a copy of all your neighbor's house keys.


Wardriving. Tale as old as time. WIGLE used to be the OG wardriving site. Check it out.


Ah, the good old days when noone knew anything about network security. I did my share of dumb shit.


They still dont


No, but most routers at least now force you to set a password even if it is the one on the bottom of the router.


The one on the bottom of the router is a perfectly cromulent password for most purposes. It's effective, you know where it will be, and if you junk the router you don't have an incorrect password lying around. The only time it presents a problem is if someone gains physical access to the router \*at which point you already have much bigger problems than your fuckin' wifi password\*.


Not to mention they have their own custom back up alarm so, at least for me, when they back up your brain thinks Amazon. Amazon is a terrible company. Truly a race to the bottom funded by everyone that shops off it


You can fit all that in...Bezos garage


Fun fact they use your wifi devices to know when and if packages arrive where they are supposed too.


Data...... uhh, finds a way


My positronic brain has several layers of shielding to protect me from power surges. It would be possible for you to remove my cranial unit and take it with you.


Can't wait till they make lil basically sentient head buddies you can carry around with you on various planets


Thank you Goldblum


All I can say is god bless Pihole and NextDNS


Haven't used NextDNS before. Does it offer any advantages over using an install of pihole or Adguard?


It's another layer of protection from malicious domains, and is private DNS. You have pihole/adguard and then point the DNS to nextdns servers.


**Jeff** Golblum **Jeff** Bezos Coincidence?


Jeff Coincidence is involved too? 😳


More importantly, if you don't even have a ring, but your neighbor across the street has one.....


Here in Austria, I'm only allowed to film my own property with security cams. I.e. I have a cam in my driveway, but have to block out anything that's on the street. Seems like an easy solution, but then again this is the US.


It would be a First Amendment violation to prohibit recording the public.


Then you have to conduct your drug deals elsewhere


All amazon needs is a contract with xfinity to acess their wifi network that private routers broadcast to all xfinity users. And done.


Simple, just build your home inside an enormous faraday cage


Also pihole only blackholes DNS requests and only if they're using your configured DNS. Lots of IOT products are hard coded to use a DNS service instead of the default inherited networks to combat this


Like this? https://www.wired.com/story/how-amazon-sidewalk-works/


The fact that this tech is even possible is amazing, but the privacy implications are awful


you mean the privacy implicit issues? The corporations have wanted inside your home just as badly as the government did. Now they both have access. 1) Companies collect your data because of your autoclicking EULA. 2) Governments have agreements with Companies for tax breaks or payments to excise the data the companies collect. This is legal because you gave the companies willful access and they can sell the data to anyone. 3) Set fire to the 4th amendment bitches... we have been conquered.


I'm completely against companies having access to my data, but I am curious on a few pieces. 1) I don't know if we should blame the end user to accept a EULA. Without having a lawyer present to read the terms, I don't think a majority of people would be able to understand most of what they agree to. That's an unreasonable expectation from these companies and I think I they should be invalidated. 2) Out of curiosity, do you have any sources on the tax breaks to companies for providing data? I don't doubt it, but it's the first I've heard of it.


> 1) I don't know if we should blame the end user to accept a EULA. Without having a lawyer present to read the terms, I don't think a majority of people would be able to understand most of what they agree to. That's an unreasonable expectation from these companies and I think I they should be invalidated. exactly this. People thinking we just blindly clicked accept because lazy is silly. These things are 70+ pages long, using very similar language throughout and makes very little sense at all if you are not trained. It was specifically made to be confusing and to deter people from reading it.


Very well said. This reminds me of the [Southpark episode that is about how ridiculous these terms and conditions agreements are](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ifHjG4JKIOk&t=0m14s)


Great episode


This is actually the same episode Southpark used for the **6 days to air Documentary**; which documents how Matt and Trey make each episode in 6 days. Not only am I super cereal, but it also documents their LSD trip at the Oscars  ͡ᵔ ͜ʖ ͡ᵔ   * [Making of Southpark | 6 Days to air (NSFL) ](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qgkbiVURAlQ&t=0m12s) ^^Full ^^Documentary


Wasn't there a research in average time to read all EULA we accept in life and it was like 4 years of solid reading


I remember something along those lines in the documentary Terms and Conditions May Apply.


Shit man, what are regular people supposed to do? Most people aren't going to care, I ha e an extremely hard time talking to most people about this. No one understands the slippery slope this inevitably will take on insurance and future employment.


They already do -- their devices mostly all have LoRa radios, and will mesh with neighbors to find a route to the Internet. Or, you know, neighbors mesh with yours to use your bandwidth. Not only that, they sell the LoRa services through AWS, so customers of theirs are also piggybacking on your links.


This may work with Ring for now, but it's not unheard of for companies to deny access to their services if you block dns requests. Just fyi. I love Pihole, myself and have been looking to upgrade to a pfsense box.




Amazon app would constantly say "something went wrong" if you blocked ads. I use a custom DNS that blocks known ad ips.


This is fixed now


Not specifically. Some have ads that can't be blocked because they use the same network for content delivery (YouTube, Hulu, etc). GoPuff is a delivery service for snacks/essentials and you basically can't access their App at all when you use Pihole. I've had difficulty logging in to Wyze among others when I've had the Pihole operational. But some of these have been fixed going forward. Most of my issues with Pihole-related access have been because of shady sites/IOT devices that phone home or collect information, so it's not a huge disadvantage not to be able to use them. Samsung are notorious for phoning home. Google devices as well. Seems like every smart TV does it these days. tl;dr Pihole is awesome and the fact that I can't access the login portal for a cheap, Chinese IP camera is really probably more a benefit anyway. Amazon and Ring track the fuck out of you and if they can't, all the better in my book.


What's the point of buying the ring then? You can get an Amcrest video doorbell that actually has RTSP at that point


As someone who owns an Amcrest doorbell, it's great if you're reasonably tech savvy, but I wouldn't recommend it over an Arlo or Ring to the average person. Fantastic camera if you don't mind the occasional technical pain point though.


Am I correct or naive in thinking that if all the mass market smart security brands, Arlo is the best for data security/privacy?


Afaik, Arlo does seem to land in a sweet spot between ease of use and respecting privacy. They're far from perfect (iirc, they have a few restrictions over what you can store locally vs what you*must* send to an external server), but seem to be far less bad than Ring. I need to look into eufy more, as well. I think eufy, like Amcrest, lets you have full control of your data with an appropriate setup, but the average person might not be equipped to create an "appropriate setup".


Brand name, good functionality and flashy UI for the best possible price. It's unbeatable because of how massive they are.


Does the UI and functionality still work well when you block outgoing connections? My understanding is the app connects to the camera from Amazons servers, which wouldn't work if you blocked their servers


I don't know how it that app works, I don't know if anyone here truely does or is legally allowed to divulge such details. But, it is a cloud based IoT product, so expect severely degraded fuctionality if you start trying to block it or manipulate functionality. I use enterprise grade hardware firewalling and I don't even try this with my Chromecast. I also just avoid smart products like a plague, but that comes with significantly increased complexity. It's a shitty situation with no easy solution. Stick with what works and fight for proper oversight and legislation.




It's not just their echo. I setup a pi-hole in a household with 1 kindle fire and maybe 10-15 other non-amazon devices. The kindle sent over 10x more requests than any other device and all the amazon domains were the top 10 blocked until we put it in the trash.


Disney plus is my most blocked domain pinging an analytics domain off my Sony smart tv. There's two requests that go out every thirty seconds whether the TV is on or off, it's insane


Sigh I really wish I could jail break my Samsung TV. I love the panel but damn do I hate the "smart" features. I hope they have fun listening to me cooking dinner.


The future in past movies: self tying shoes, hoverboards, flying cars The current day reality of that future: our fridges listen to us and our doorbells watch us. Turns out Beauty and the Beast was the real future visionary film


for those of us raised on the cyberpunk genre, nothing about any of this is a surprise. Now give me my chrome arms and mirror shades eyeballs damnit.


By time I learned real cyberdecks were a thing, we already had smartphones. I'm waiting for dark market net-connected neural implants. Because fuck the idea of getting an implant from a private company or government organization.




Thankfully because "Black market tech" so to speak barely exists outside of counterfeits. I'll agree with your logic though, for sure. I think a "Modern" version of this would be Open source hackers, or people who create custom firmware for devices. If you are a specialist already you'd be more likely to find documentation or be able to read said code of privately created devices (And if it was obfuscated the way corporate level devices would be... Would you you bother assuming it's not a one-of-a-kind type of tech). The real battle becomes larger organizations creating tech so obfuscated that it's not worth or very very difficult to reverse engineer. And another fun fact - Biohacking is a thing, and people are already creating home-made implants that are smart/network connected. We're already in the 'they will crawl, so the future can walk' type situation.




Cant wait to have my ocular implant be ransomwared where all I can see is Rickroll until I pay up.


I'm not putting anything into my body that isn't open source


Now if only people cared about this before we started carrying around personal surveillance devices lol.


I dunno there's a big difference between something in my pocket and something wired into my nervous system


yeah but those Carl Zeiss optics are top notch. some back alley ripper doc aint gonna home brew something that good.


Don't spaz out choom.


> for those of us raised on the cyberpunk genre, nothing about any of this is a surprise. Now give me my chrome arms and mirror shades eyeballs damnit. For real. The entire cyberpunk genre is about corporate dystopia and what happens when people are seen as nothing but resources and numbers combined with future tech.


Off the top of my head Cyberpunk 2020/2077, Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell..... Yeah. A huge part of the world-building for genre is the mass willingness to let corporations create the tech surveillance and advertisment driven world, and increasing indifference to escalations in privacy violation.


Of all the SF genres unfortunately, the cyperpunk dystopias were the closet to reality with their predictions. Honestly Robocop, of all the SF film of that decade, was closet in their predictions about how the present became a hyper capitalist uncaring for the non rich.


Tales about the hyper capitalist societies not caring for the masses have been a thing since the industrial revolution though.


> The future in past movies: self tying shoes, hoverboards, flying cars I still think having all the information of man kind in our pocket is better than all of those things and none of those movies predicted that.


Shoelace lobbyist shill post.


This made my nose expell air, thanks


The problem is that we now have all the ignorance of man in our pocket as well, and it's normalized not only no longer caring about privacy but actively seeking to burn it for a momentary sense of belonging and approval. I feel sometimes like we opened Pandora's Box and closed it with something as essential as Hope inside.


I'm in the "stupid people were always out there, now we're just more aware of them" camp.


The problem is isolated stupid people can become smarter, or at least be harmless. The change now is the ease at which small, niche, or extremist groups can find each other and organise.


Well absolutely, but right now the internet is still largely the wild west as far as who can say what, when, etc. Within reason I hope it always stays that way. If someone uses that freedom to harm someone, they should be appropriately dealt with but the idea of adjusting the relative freedom we have online to silence people who have subjectively "bad ideas" is probably a bad idea itself.


One of the biggest problems we is that we have awareness of existing problems but not the collective resolve and/or capability to actually do anything to deal with the problem and prevent it from reoccurring once it's dealt with.


> The current day reality of that future: our fridges listen to us and our doorbells watch us. Isn't that the basic premise of 1984?


Sure, but that was to listen for dissent against the ruling state. I wouldn’t call it 1984 just yet, it’s not like the police are going to come and arrest you because your doorbell heard you talking shit about Amazon


Bezos is plotting from his mega yacht now...


When we learn he owns a white cat - thats when the shit really hits the fan...


I always pictured Musk as a white cat kind of guy


Its not like the police are going to do shit about break ins and theft even with overwhelming evidence. I have several anecdotes.


If the data is being exfiltrated to an external server (which in this case it is) then there is a fairly solid chance that the NSA and friends are tapped into the data and analysing it for finding whoever they want to find. With this fact it very well could be used for listening to dissent against the ruling state and just hasn't been leaked yet (if ever).


Recall in 1984 they only did those things to the Outer Party - people with means to be a threat to the Inner Party. Most people, the Proles, lived “free”lives.


I’m pretty sure big multinational corporations *are* the ruling state in the US. They write their own laws and regulations and pay the politicians to pass them.


Yea but with this twist [https://mobile.twitter.com/keithlowell/status/347741181997879297](https://mobile.twitter.com/keithlowell/status/347741181997879297)


No rather it's more like a fun coincidence. 1984 is actually a pretty interesting read for something written so long ago, I'd recommend it!


If Orwell had described *the proles* fighting for spots in line at midnight to buy the latest Telescreen^^©1984 , his editor would have made him change it.


Never underestimate the mouse




Assists an extra-judicial vigilante in about 10k different attempted murder and aggravated assault cases by basically defrauding his own company for billions; literally quits in the last 30 minutes because of the one thing they were doing that wasn’t actually that unethical in the interest of catching a mass murderer


I never spent time thinking about this... But.... This is the most accurate representation of him ever. He's also incompetent because he could saved Gotham by flooding the chamber with the reactor instead of allowing Bane to make a nuclear weapon. He's literally the worst.


God damnit that’s true too


The whole notion Bruce could suddenly be "destitute" is hilarious on its face. Even if he did actually lose all his stocks...he has zero assets outside of that? Even ignoring THAT how the fuck did Lucious Fox not just float him some money while the stock thing worked itself out? Not even to mention the entire notion a power company would shut off your power in less than 24 hours after a news report about stolen stocks....


You can totally just storm the stock exchange with an armed gang and make a load of transactions and they'll be totally legit.


> the one thing they were doing that wasn’t actually that unethical Well, see, that's where we differ.




encrypt it. they cant compel me to decrypt, can they?


I believe that's dependent on the country. I think currently no in US but yes in UK for example. Isn't this similar to requiring finger/face/pw to unlock a confiscated phone?


That only protects you from self-incrimination via 5th amendment. If you have evidence of a crime you did not commit and refuse to provide it, you’d be in legal trouble.


The whole ring law enforcement thing is really basic. I have it enrolled into it. You upload a screen shot of what your camera sees and place on a map the location/direction it faces. Cops looking for evidence can see that info and your screenshot. If they think it would help they can send a request through ring directly to me asking for video between two points of time. I can accept it and Amazon does the rest, or I can deny it and they can't request it again. This gives you time to review it yourself before sending it. All this does is making it more efficient for cops to look for relevant camera footage. It's less intrusive than the old way of knocking on your door and asking for a copy of your video.


Amazon ring isn't the largest civilian surveillance network, the cellphone in your pocket is. Everyone has one nowdays and it's near impossible to stop Google, Facebook, Amazon, etc from tracking your every move and even listening to your phone's microphone. Anyone that has ever requested a Google data archive nows how much data it collects and how much Google knows about your everyday life. You can find call/text/email data, your location at just about any time, if something says anything remotely similar to the voice assistant activation then it listens to you for a little bit, super creepy overall. Your ISP/phone provider can also provide data tied to what your IP address and related IP addresses have been doing and when. Then consider that police departments have been known to request user data archives from Google and Facebook which has lead to plenty of arrests. I'd be more concerned about that instead of a doorbell camera outside your neighbor's house


I have a Ring. I hate that I have to have this. Can you tech savvy folks recommend some better doorbell ring cams that aren’t law enforcement security cams?


As far as I know eufy has doorbells with local storage that can still be accessed remotely only by the user. But then again Eufy just had a video breach reported so.... Guess I'm back to doing research on which brand to buy...


A breach is bad but it isn't the same as Amazon that actually has a working relationship with police to arrange requests and hand it over. Ianal but I would think evidence obtained via hacking would not be admissable nor do I think your local police department hacked eufy.




Yep that's the breach i was referring to.


> The issue affected users at a small rate in the United States, New Zealand, Australia, Cuba, Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina. *Users in Europe remain unaffected* Smart, downplaying the issue for those pesky GDPR fines.


If you aren't setting up your own system then there is no good answer. At least the people getting my data are getting some boring shit. Oh look, this guys kids are screaming about pop tarts again. Oh wow, this guy left for work at 835 instead of 815, he's going to be late.


That's still valuable data.


Especially since the ring owner pays the dataminer to mine their data




This is the kind of direct action I can get behind


Exactly, it’s a little things but that builds a profile. Hopefully they’ll just use it to sell me things, but it’s starting to feel like the end of Fahrenheit 451 up in bish.


raise the price of poptarts at the safeway on 3267 broad st conneticut by 14.73% deploy ads to consumer id a240b014-8b82-42d1-a7a3-f9532c44fc28 personality profile tired dad


Buy a cheaper Nas ([synology](https://www.synology.com/en-us/products/series/home) is good). Buy Security cameras that are compatible with their [surveillance software](https://www.synology.com/en-us/surveillance). Data never leaves your network. It goes from the camera to your server and stored. There are mobile apps you can use to get push notifications and review your footage and that goes from server-->your phone


Just be aware, though -- Surveillance Station in DSM is just a demo, and its pretty expensive to add additional cameras to it.


Can you elaborate? I haven't set this up yet but it was my original plan. How expensive is it? Edit: Did a little digging. It comes with two licenses for free (one license per camera) and then you purchase more after that. A pack of four licenses on [Amazon](https://www.amazon.com/Synology-Camera-License-Pack-CLP4/dp/B001JD8J8W) is $200. They don't expire, however it seems in the latest update you can only transfer the licenses to a new NAS once, and if you want to upgrade again you will need to purchase new Licenses


This article is somewhat misleading. These are voluntary requests that you have to approve of, similar to how Police can request any CCTV footage voluntarily without a warrant, and you can turn the ability for them to even send you request turned off. https://www.cnet.com/home/security/ring-doorbell-and-police-surveillance-theres-a-new-way-to-opt-out-of-video-requests/


> This article is somewhat misleading. Pretty much Reddit's motto innit.


Try the internet. 2021 is just people sending headlines at each other without reading anything, basing their entire identities on what they feel when they read said headlines.


Followed by "I didn't read the article"


Where I live, we had a detective knock on the door about fleeing suspects (shooting like 2 miles away. In a city ... that's the other side of the planet). He asked politely if he could have the Ring footage for a very specific timeframe. I sent it to him via email. I sent him everything but I was completely in control of what I shared. This isn't dystopia time...these are requests you can turn down.


You could always make your own system using a cheap camera and a raspberry pi. But that route requires some expertise and/or research.


If you don't know anything (or care to learn) about IT security or Linux systems, this isn't a great idea. An improperly secured RPi not only gives attackers the ability to view your camera's, but also access to the rest of your home network.


Easy, apart from IT security or Linux systems, you also need Network systems skills to configure it properly. But let's be real, without this skills, you don't know what you are buying anyway, so the best you can do, is to not give it the Internet.


I would do this if I didn't know that there would inevitably be problems and my wife would roll her eyes everytime she used it. I know what she's thinking, "We had something that worked great and was easy to use but you just HAD to get activist because you didn't want Jeff Bezos to see you missing 3 pointers in the driveway." And I mean... \*sigh\* she's not exactly wrong. In other words, Ring might suck in a lot of ways, but it sucks in all the ways that don't matter to a typical suburban family, in the ways that count (namely, usability, reliability and features) it's five star.


Trading privacy for convenience, even if you have “nothing to hide” is just unsettling to me. Sure I don’t necessarily have anything to hide from Amazon but I still wanna hide it. Idc what their intentions are for watching me suck at basketball in the driveway I still don’t want them watching. It’s a principle thing for me.


It’s a good principle to have. I don’t trust any of this tech. Every time someone says it’s safe, there’s a news story the next day about how it has been hacked. People are WAY to lax when it comes to giving up their privacy in exchange for fun and convenience. Without privacy you aren’t free, and I love my freedom.


Yeah, pretty much. Convenience paves the path towards dystopia.


If you are willing to learn, a Ubiquiti system is extremely good and flexible. Not cheap though.


https://www.theverge.com/2021/3/31/22360409/ubiquiti-networking-data-breach-response-whistleblower-cybersecurity-incident That Ubiquiti? What's worse, your privacy being lost because of competence or incompetence?


A lot of Ubiquiti from what I understand just goes locally on the controller unless you use a cloud key. So while this breach was unfortunate, you can host everything locally.


Second for ubiquity. I have a g4 doorbell and it’s been really great for me (though I wish it were poe).


Logitech has one that works with HomeKit, I am sure you could find a home assistant pug in to run it with out apple stuff.


"Then there’s this: since Amazon bought Ring in 2018, it has brokered more than 1,800 partnerships with local law enforcement agencies, **who can** ***request*** **recorded video content** ***from Ring users*** **without a warrant**. ​ What am I missing here? The police can request the content on my Ring without a warrant and I can give it to them? That doesn't seem bad...


That's exactly right. If you don't want to give it to them you don't have to, same as pretty much most police requests that aren't backed with a subpoena. Of course if they really want the video they can go get a subpoena to get it from Amazon directly (my understanding is a lot of judges pretty regularly rubber stamp subpoenas, but still an extra step the police have to take), but that's another issue. It's really not all that different than if you had a CCTV system and the police came to your house and asked for the video. You could always refuse but if they come back with a subpoena for it you're obligated to give it to them. Only difference is Amazon probably doesn't tell you if the police got the video from them with a subpoena.


Yours isn't a law enforcement security cam already unless you regularly agree to share videos with the police when requested. Shocking that your rights aren't being violated in any way despite the overt misrepresentations in the article, I know.


Don't you have an option to deny them access to your feeds


Besides our phones.


I agree. I openly talk about how I don't trust smart devices like Alexa or Nest, and of course I have a smart phone. And yeah, I don't trust it either. Doesn't mean I'm going to invite even more invasive tech into my home. Now that you mention it, maybe it's time to start looking into a dumber phone.


We have the camera floodlight in our back yard - My kids like to watch me mow the lawn on the phone as opposed to watching me mow the lawn from the window




Why even have kids


> who can **request** recorded video content from Ring users without a warrant. I mean..., yeah? You dont need a warrant to REQUEST information. Its a request.


These articles are always funded by some competing manufacturers trying to gain an edge and who likely is just as bad


There's also a lot of people who WANT to give police as much footage as possible when requested. (Myself included). Of course I understand there's potential for abuse, but when your city is on track for the highest murder rate ever, the more footage the better.


Really flawed journalism here. This "data" is based on requests that participating public safety agencies have made. This doesn't show whether the user accepted the request which is explicitly made clear in the product's TOU. The article is presenting this like public safety agencies have stolen 22,000 videos from Ring products. Simply over the past few years, requests have been made. As per the Ring site: What is a video request? After joining Neighbors, public safety agencies may submit a video request through Neighbors asking their community to assist an investigation by voluntarily sharing videos. Users can ignore the request and also change their privacy settings to avoid receiving future requests. Public safety cannot see which users, if any, receive a request unless the user chooses to share video in response. The video request feature was designed to protect your privacy, and that includes ensuring that your decision not to share videos or to opt-out of receiving future requests stays private. https://support.ring.com/hc/en-us/articles/360023205151


What about Nest cameras?


I wouldn't expect Google to be superior in regards to privacy.


Pretty much every article like this I've seen on here are traced back to their competitors who do the same exact shit The real concern here is consumers being able to get a functional device with one purchase and not some super expensive annual subscription being basically compulsory if you wanna use it properly It should be outright fucking illegal really


It's Google vs Amazon...no real difference. The issue is the cloud-based service they are really selling behind this hardware. I pulled out my Ring cameras because Amazon has every intent to use the data -- when, how often, who -- rings your doorbell. They send this information to the servers even if you don't use/pay for the cloud storage service. I use IP-based cameras and have them hooked up to a separate wifi router NOT connected to the Internet, and stored to an old desktop PC. But, it's probably enough just to keep the video away from the big cloud services.


Google nest cameras that actually have facial recognition as a feature? Strangely I’ve never seen a single post amongst the endless Ring pearl clutching articles.


CIA : hmmmm perrrfect!


My neighbour's Ring stares straight at my house, driveway and yard. Everything is under 24-hour surveillance.


Ours too. Their back sidedoor looks right into our backyard. They’re decent people but I dislike knowing they get a constant push-notification + feed of my coming and goings 24-7. Been thinking of planting some trees to block the view.


Thanks I fucking hate this. I hate it for you I hate it for me I hate it for all of us. 


This sensationalist stuff keeps on popping up in true /r/technology fashion. From everything I've seen, police still have to request and the user can deny sharing footage. Users can actually autoreject requests from the app. At the end of the day any company has to turn over footage when supoenaed anyway. I think the real debate is what people feel about surveillance in general. Nothing new is exposed in this article and is pretty much clickbait journalism off the opportunity that they sold a lot of product.


wasn't there a shitty movie about this lol


Not your server, not your data. There's a reason I've hosted my own music streaming server for personal use.


This Amazon Ring? >February 2019: [Amazon’s Home Surveillance Chief Declared War on “Dirtbag Criminals” as Company Got Closer to Police](https://theintercept.com/2019/02/14/amazon-ring-police-surveillance/) > July 2019: [Amazon writes scripts for cops to sling Ring home cameras, report says](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/07/amazon-writes-scripts-for-cops-to-sling-ring-home-cameras-report-says/) >August 2019: [Police can get your Ring doorbell footage without a warrant, report says](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/police-can-get-your-ring-doorbell-footage-without-a-warrant-report-says/) >August 2019: [Ring asks police not to tell public how its law enforcement backend works](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/08/dont-call-our-surveillance-products-surveillance-ring-tells-police/) >November 2019: [It’s the user’s fault if a Ring camera violates your privacy, Amazon says](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/11/cops-can-keep-ring-footage-forever-share-it-with-anyone-amazon-confirms/) >November 2019: [Amazon’s Ring Planned Neighborhood “Watch Lists” Built on Facial Recognition](https://theintercept.com/2019/11/26/amazon-ring-home-security-facial-recognition/) >December 2019: [Uploaded Ring footage reportedly provides location to the square inch: Neighbors data proves extra-revealing as Amazon police partnerships accelerate](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2019/12/ring-used-parties-swag-to-build-700-police-partnerships-report-finds/) >January 2020: [Amazon’s Ring app shares loads of your personal info, report finds ](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/01/amazons-ring-app-shares-loads-of-your-personal-info-report-finds/) >April 2020: [Leaked pics from Amazon Ring show potential new surveillance features ](https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/04/ring-cameras-may-someday-scan-license-plates-and-faces-leak-shows/) >July 2020: [Amazon’s Ring Enables the Over-Policing Efforts of Some of America’s Deadliest Law Enforcement Agencies](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/07/amazons-ring-enables-over-policing-efforts-some-americas-deadliest-law-enforcement) The very same one? Shocking.


It’s astonishing that people buy and use these devices.


I got one for my dad. He's elderly with limited mobility and unable to easily get up to the door on his own in a reasonable time, so the ability to answer the door on his phone from the living room is the difference between getting a package he ordered and the delivery guy assuming noone's home and wandering off. He's also begun to be targetted by scammers of various kinds, and they have completely stopped turning up at his door since the camera has been installed. Both of these have massively increased his quality of life in the last couple of years. Yes I could have implemented a custom equivalent system as I have done in my own home, however that is certainly less polished in terms of UX than the ring, and he completely failed to follow when I tried to explain how mine worked, whereas he got the hang of the ring's UI almost instantly. And I don't have to port it all from Adroid over to iPhone, so that's a plus for me.


There are certainly major benefits to the system which is why it is so popular, it seems to fit your situation with your father perfectly.


I agree with RippyMcBong’s reasonable response


No, it isn't. A surveillance network made up of cameras pointed at what the consumer wants observed is vastly different from a centralized surveillance network of what the State or a Corporation wants observed.


Why is it astonishing? If it’s on your door focused on the exterior it’s not particularly invading your privacy


Honestly had no idea that amazon was giving access to anyone, but the benefits for me individually outweigh the potential downsides for me individually. Is it really the consumers fault for wanting a useful product or is our government's (and the voting population overall) fault for not having better privacy laws? I mean if you really cared about privacy, you wouldn't have a smart phone or go on the internet. You literally can't win in this surveillance war.


The interesting thing is the smooth transition to when it becomes illegal not to be subject to monitoring. Because once they can some of the time, they want to all the time. Because of the crimes, you know, because of the good. Brave New World was kinda spot on. Abdicating all responsibility because it is convenient is the reason that we are in the mess we are in, and most of us don't care because we are in the section of the population that has privilege.


That is the most concise explanation of the issue I have ever heard.


The road to hell will be built with the best of intentions. It will be a comfortable and beneficial ride right up until you get there. You likely can't see all of the *potential* downsides, only the current downsides.


Well let me rephrase my point. My point is that if we're going about addressing privacy concerns at the level of individual consumer choices without doing anything else, then I think we're going about this wrong. It has to be addressed at a higher level (i.e. privacy reform laws). Ignorance is one thing, but navigating every potential threat to privacy esp as a layperson is just literally impossible in the current world we live in.


Buddy of mine is a firefighter and they just sent me doorbell camera footage from a fire they were called out to. It was from the house across the street, but it was cool seeing the apartment go from nothing to totally engulfed in flames. For good or ill, we will now have video records like never before.




If someone with that kind of know-how and drive is trying to break into my home, I'm not going to be able to stop them anyway.


I don't think my local package stealing tweakers are doing this


All of that sounds like a great way to turn a package theft charge into all sorts of crazy domestic terrorist and radio interference charges, not to mention you're basically broadcasting that you're doing it as you do it. I don't think jamming is being used in the wild, tbh. That kind of stuff gets responded to.