By - mazrrim
fuck it we climbing boys
Just played a match with this build. 100% winrate. Broken indeed. (I don't care about sample sizes) /s
The number of league players i've seen unironically think anecdotal evidence is stronger than statistical evidence...
Interestingly they wrote a book about statistical thinking called thinking fast and slow. In it they discuss the fact that people do not have the ability to estimate statistics and the more experience with statistics just creates more bias
I delayed reading it for a long time. Was pleasantly surprised although it is a bit dry
Agreed, though my experience with statistics is that “a bit dry” is pretty good for the subject matter
By Daniel Kahneman? Man I’ve had that book for like a year and haven’t gotten around to reading it yet.. screw it, this will be my motivation. I start it today lol.
Thats irrelevant were talking about statistics in a game not statistics related to sociology or anything real. There is a correct move in blackjack for example and just because you win a hand by not playing the correct move dosent mean you were right to do so.
Ok, and how is that relevant to what they said lol? The more experience you have with statistics the more you understand how to use the numbers. No one is saying that once you spend 6 hours scouring op.gg you can just predict or estimate statistics.
I've also seen tons of players who play 5 games of something and say it's broken when in reality across the 100,000 game sample size it's definitely not good, or the reverse of this. I don't understand why OP is getting downvoted.
Anecdotal evidence matters in league for an individual. If I have success on a build in MY elo with MY skills on that champion then it can be BROKEN in my context. It doesn’t make it universally true, but it is useful for me.
It doesn’t matter if a champion has a 54% win rate across every elo and is OP as hell, if I myself can’t land their combo to save my life.
Sure, it matters for that individual, I never said it didn't. My problem is with people that use anecdotal evidence as justification for broad, sweeping claims, like "I saw X champ 1v9 with this build so it must be op". As an example when AD Kat was really broken (ie winrate was a lot higher) but AP was still a lot more popular, tons of people were saying AP is better because it "feels" better, and if it feels better for them that's great but it's objectively suboptimal.
But that's more of a difference between damage style. AP feels better because it's much more burst, while AD gave you mixed damage, and sustain with conq and lifesteal.
What would be wrong with arguing that it’s OP? If you’re going to agree with the idea that something being OP is relative to the player/elo/context then there’s absolutely nothing wrong with someone claiming that “X is OP” because it is in their context.
And to address your AD Kat example, this is why win rates of champions don’t tell the entire tale. It isn’t objectively suboptimal to go AP Kat over AD Kat because it depends on the situation. In the example you gave, we don’t know why those players were even arguing that AP Kat feels better. One reason could be that in a large volume of games where they play AD Kat, people were building armor, which made it feel harder to kill. And in their AP games maybe people just weren’t stacking MR. At any rate there’s simply no way at all to tell whether or not it’s actually suboptimal in the situation being described. Just because one’s WR is higher doesn’t necessarily mean one is always better than the other, or that it’s always the optimal route to go down.
This so much. If I can run full lethality yorick and become the bronze pokerick God the. It’s broken af for me, at that time, in those games, in that elo.
Unrelated to lol; but I wish the concept of ergodicity was more applied in psychological treatment research.
Basically im saying people end up with a cognitive bias
Most people suck at the game though. I only care if it works for me not some boosted donkey
But we also have statistical evidence... With the build OP suggests her winrate is ridiculous.
Win rates don’t tell the entire tale. This is not to say that win rates aren’t helpful at all, because they definitely are. However they’re not a completely accurate indicator when determining whether or not a champion is terrible or OP. There is MUCH more to look at on the anecdotal side of things to make a solid argument for either side.
Champions win rates fluctuate even based on which elo they’re being played in, which is anecdotal by nature since what players are experiencing is even different according to the win rates. So even by your own logic you’re using some degree of anecdotal evidence to justify empirical data.
And let’s give you the benefit of the doubt and say you’re just using the total combined win rate for a champion. Take Camille for example: 49.45% WR over 665,868 games last patch for all elos. This is sub 50% which is bad, yet every single high elo player has been begging for Camille nerfs for a long time now, and for good reason.
Exactly. Elo changes a lot of factors and fundamentals on a Wingate for champ. Yi is the prime example for me
Absolutely no clue why you’re being destroyed with downvotes. Not even anything rude either, lol.
I think it's because the root comment has a /s at the end and this person who replied to them is just ignoring it. Though maybe the first person edited the /s in later and baited people? Idk lol.
It does feel rude and as though he is saying it in a holier than thou tone
Tone in text is usually the readers bias.
Sure, but in this instance the ellipses is really telling of his tone. A period would be much more matter of fact, but the ellipses completely changes the meaning and shows his condescending tone
or exasperated and defeated
Its the speed of the tornado, their was a reason why it was nerfed years ago.
Typical riot tbh. Buff then NERF then they nerf an item that accidentally makes that particular champ super unplayable and then they restart the buff cycle.
The high initial winrates may be because of people's unfamiliarity with what to expect. For example tornados going faster means that old muscle memory reaction times are insufficient. I'd give it some more time to allow the player base to get used to play against the new Janna first before making nerfs to prevent overcompensation.
Like when they gave Blitz like 100 extra hook range after 10 years of it being the same. Or when they gave Amumu a second Q and it took people a solid month or so to adapt.
>Amumu a second Q
They did what now? Are you kidding me?
they did do some compensation nerfs but yes
Well that’s good to know and explains a lot! In October I returned from a 2.5 year hiatus and I’m still finding out new things every day.
I feel that I came back after about 4 years and everyone has an invisibility now it is wild.
Yeah i remember back then if you want to be a sneaky bastard you gotta be Shaco. Because rengar and khazix have only ults to invi. Now Oprah gave away invisibility to the masses.
Once got my support on a tantrum bc I hit a very low hp enemy and they immediately disappeared exactly when I hit them so I went back to turret
Turns out they procced drakthar and got Invisible
Lol I do that so many times any time there is an assassin and we team fight it is so hard to keep track of
You mean cancer? Because that what chemtech dragon is. Absolute cancer.
Yeah quite a lot has been changed since then lol
Rift and items must be making you crazy XD
Oh man, I remember diving right into the game after my break.. I am a Jungle main and was very confused to say the least lol. The mythic items and all the changed icons and names took me a time to get used to.
Statikk Shiv is also gone :(
I miss it! Also Zz’rot and the Jungle items :(
Oh man welcome back lol.
idk if you get used to the speed these tornados fly at you with, man, its basically just hoping you lean correctly. they're incredibly fast
Meh. Played against a few yesterday. No big deal. They definitely didn't have more sway than usual in lane or in the final result.
Found the Janna main
Nah they literally destroyed her early game she just scales much better now
I'm a lux one trick but nice try
Thank god. I used to one-trick Janna to diamond every year but after a few years off I came back and just couldn't carry even in gold games anymore and had to switch to Nami. Glad my girl's back.
I still don't really understand it either. Some seasons I'd play Janna and bully the fuck out of people and just dominate lane, but after the W nerfs around 2019/2020 I just didn't have the same ability to influence lane and it basically turned into a 50/50 hoping at least one player on the team would be worth supporting.
This is me, I was playing as Janna support because of her W until she got nerfed. I was doing very very well with her and got my placement on high diamond.
After her nerf I was struggling with her so much that I stop playing her at all.
I Janna is now much more better, I have motivation to climb if this is true.
You're playing janna just fucking roam
I thought about trying Crit Janna in norms. Her base stats are now not far off from Ashe and her AD growth per level is almost identical I believe.
Could be fun!
They removed her old passive of doing extra AA damage based on movespeed, though, which was my favourite way to build her :(.
R.I.P. full ms/crit build, you certainly weren't optimal, but you will be missed.
I got Janna to m7 playing her adc like this. I hate the change to her passive
Her AS is low so it'll remain offmeta
Doubt it's busted but a much needed buff.
Delusional support players .
CAMILLE PLAYER XD
Cho’Gath R on Q.
Janna needed a buff? Lmaooo the things u see in this sub man
Why would yoy play (old) Janma in this meta wheb you can play Soraka, Nami or Lulu? Janna was OK sure but she is sooooo much worse than the other roster of enchanter. Sure she could pseudo harass people in lame with w max and comet. Karma, lux and xerath poke way more consistently. Her peel is fantastic sure but so is lulu, thresh, naut etc. She was average in all parts of her kit (healing, shielding, poking, roaming). She was balanced or perhaps underwhelming. A nice buff isn't surprising at all.
Nah all enchanters are cncerbroken and so rewarding compared to how ridiculously easy it is to play them, sure Janna isn't better than lulu/nami but these champs are like S+ tier
As a thresh player I strongly agree. Although in lower elos (I'm plat 4 peak) it's easy to spot a bad enchanter player. By your "cancerbroken" logic any player can climb on lulu, Nami etc when it's simply not the case. I feel some enchanter nerfs coming soon. When thresh isn't highest picked support you know something weird is happening in the meta.
any player can climb on lulu nami. the thing is with champs like thresh pyke you have to make plays happen or you're just completely fkn useless. so if a gold pyke player went to challenger, he'd have a 20% winrate. however, lulu and nami and yuumi can just ignore poke and their aggressive capabilities and heal and shield and empower their carries and have a 45% winrate. i'm gonna be downvoted but this is the correct opinion
tl;dr lulu nami yuumi are harder to climb on consistently unless you're good at, but you can coiunflip well
I boosted my ex from Iron to gold and she manages to obtain her rank when she plays nami/lulu every game even though she is literally iron skill level, sure she won't climb more just cus the champs are broken but as an other comment said it's so easy to coinflip games playing enchanters
And that's the problem low diamond/high plat is full of boosted duo abusers that just spam enchanters cus they know they will never demote playing these champs, any role that allows you to do this thing definitely doesn't need a buff
You do understand from a logical basis people get better. Also keep in mind higher elo players know how to play with enchanters.
Really low elo adcs literally afk farm and do nothing until you land say a hook or cc. Which puts so much pressure and risk for the squishy enchanter. Not to mention higher elos mean they know how to react.
I.tried support climb years back when bronze 5 was still a thing. It was so hard to climb. I just went jungle to get out of that elo. I was 1000x better at support than jingle, but youre impeded based on your teammates abilities and mechanics which at that elo... little to non existent.
hovering around tier 4 tier 5 for like a year BUT APO CLIMBED TO #1 TWO YEARS AGO AMIRITE
I mean even riot said so in their patch notes. And yeah I feel she was weak before.
as a janna otp ***i want my attack range back***
And here I have played 3 ARAM games in a row against her and that tornado movement made me think I am having packet data loss so it skipping frames and the game is trying to compensate for it by making it go super fast….
It is cancer lmao. Not like she already was fucking annoying to go against.
ME TOO. and then I thought I havent seen one in ages maybe I forgot how fast her Q travelled.
Just seems like she had endless mana. Everytime Q was up they used it.
It’s easier to dodge this kind of skill shots by making your enemy cast it where you want it to be. Many high elo players do that with micro-movement (i.e. walking to minion on purpose to make him think he’s gonna land easily and then completely change path). I say this as a high plat Janna main
I'm not sure why they buffed Janna tbh. Like I know she's weak but everyone who pays attention to the meta sort of knew she's always been hidden OP, most reliable support for years. The one year she's not top tier, hidden OP because of serpent's fang they have to make her kit entirely more annoying.
How are those not contradictory
hidden OP in previous years, not this past season. This past year has been the weakest she's been in a while.
She doesn't need to be buffed to broken-tiers just because she's weak for 1 season.
I don't want Q go zoom, I want more than 500 AA range, I want W poke, I want E CD refund, I want more effective MS.
>more than 500 AA range, W poke
Support mains never get it so they. Your champ *literally couldn’t be buffed* because her laning phase made her impossible to play against in high elo and pro play, so she had to be left in a garbage state. It’s the same reason why Karma is so goddamn fucking shit.
>E CD refund
Lower E CD but much stronger shield=shield is more impactful but you have it less often=more skilled Janna players that know when to use their shield get more value=less mindless E spam
>more effective MS
Well, you got that. The rework made her faster most of the time.
That's because it was her main strength - laning phase, she was unique among enchanters at that.
Oh yeah pressing E when you have 5 SECOND window of increased shield/heal power requires so much skill
You are at MS disadvantage when roaming.
Basically stfu if you dont play Janna, thank you.
I don’t think you get what the guy was saying. What you liked about poking with Janna are things that are absolutely impossible to balance. Point and click damage is unfair and unfun to play against. This was the literal reason for the first rework of Ryze, doing damage from range with a point and click ability isn’t necessarily healthy.
Short of reworking W they will go out of their way to make that build not meta as much as possible, because, as much as it is a meme, Riot does prioritize things with interaction and room for skill expression when they tweak the meta.
Honestly spamming W comet on people is so much more boring IMO. Her tornados are the interesting and interactive part of her kit so I’m happy they changed it this way
Agree, Shurelia/Mandate feels weaker. Moonstone it is I guess. These changes were broken yet was overlooked in the patch thread in /r/leagueoflegends
Shurelia would be an option if either team is a pick comp/zooming comp
What’s the build I got here late
I hate the changes because I played her like a mage w/ ludens, cosmic drive.
id rather they delete moonstone, it's a poorly designed item with bad game feel
It’s literally a slightly different athene’s.
athenes was also a poorly designed item with bad game feel. it's a crutch for people who are bad at playing enchanters
Weird mostly midlaners with shields bought it from what i remember.
I only remember getting it as a defensive item on lux and otherwise it was core on sona/soraka
It was amazing on Bard too, since it made his pitiful heals actually significant.
what's cool is moonstone doesn't even require using a shield/heal on another champ to work, so you can actually put it on anyone. at least athene's required you to do a little bit of trading and use a heal/shield button, moonstone just needs you to be in combat with champions and have other players in range. it's almost completely uninteractive to use.
remember when they removed athene's to give enchanters more build flexibility as it was mandatory for that class of champ. then they added moonstone, which is now mandatory on enchanters.
E improvement is understated.
12.2 reduced the CD from 12 to 9 at max rank. Then so long as you slow or knock something up, heal&shield power increased by 20% for 5 seconds.
it is a fun build
I miss the old janna so much
Janna back to plat boys!
I was deadass playing Janna for a week before buffs and feeling really good with her
Now she's broken, and I'm raising hell.
Fortunately I wont be bothered by Jannas cause I permaban 'er since 2015.