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Super Smash Con Fall Fest | Losers Top 24 | IcyMist vs Panda ESAM

Super Smash Con Fall Fest | Losers Top 24 | IcyMist vs Panda ESAM

Zorua3

The characters ESAM has lost to are really funny First Snake when he’s like THE most experienced at that matchup Then Samus who is literally his tag’s namesake


IonCaveGrandpa

electronic samuel


Amphicyonidae

And so continues the Theory vs Results debate for how good Pikachu actually is. It has happened for 2 straight Smash games with no signs of slowing down lol


Purple-Cauliflower86

Winning a major over the #1 player in the world and then getting 17th a few weeks later just seems like such an esam thing.


RochHoch

Wild to see ESAM beat Leo at Glitch only to go down like this IcyMist knows the Pika match-up for sure, she was playing incredibly well


Earthboundplayer

Just goes to show that only Leo has that level of consistency right now. Edit: and Maister tbf. And maybe Spargo, we gotta see. Mexico on fire right now.


AzureBalmung

I’d argue Glutonny belongs on this list with an asterisk too. He’s basically the EU Leo, and he even gets wins on major US players when the come into his home turf


diddykongisapokemon

If Maister's there then Tweek should be too, since Maister got 9th at Summit with worse losses than Tweek at Low Tide


KalebMW99

Maybe so but Summit feels like the *only* misstep Maister has ever had since he became a top 10 player (maybe a couple others in 2019 I’m not thinking of), while Tweek has always been a little bit inconsistent


diddykongisapokemon

But none of that really matters for who has the consistency *right now* does it?


KalebMW99

Considering we don’t have a huge sample size of recent offline tourneys AND Summit was the first one back causing noticeable underperformances from several players (Dabuz, Cosmos, Wizzy, and KEN to name a few) while Tweek’s LTC upset was in a later tourney where players are more acclimated to offline again I’m pretty comfortable saying Maister is currently more consistent than Tweek. Results from a long time ago are worth mentioning because consistency is also a result of mental fortitude, which while something Tweek has improved is also something Maister’s always been very good about.


Red_Speed

IcyMist had the download, holy cow


jc9800

IcyMist is cracked on god. She came to a weekly last week and dunked on everyone by going random LOL


HeinousActsZX

Huge props to Icy, that didn't even feel particularly close. She was in full control the whole set. Samus busted.


TofuAura_Toggled

shes absolutely insane she has a winning record on the top ten


dineapplepick

The Metroid Dread buff Icy been looking so good from the matches I've seen. She makes Samus look so much better than she actually is.


PaperSonic

IcyMist is incredible for sure, but also Samus is just... good all around, especially on a tournament setting where nerves can get people to run into Charge Shot, lol.


Arcekey

shades of YB


Mesprit101

Man right as I make a comment about how ESAM hasn’t been out of top 24 since Evo LOL Good stuff to IcyMist, happy to see her take names in Ultimate!!


t123fg4

Esam still made top 24 here


Mesprit101

Man I keep taking Ls today LMAO, thanks my dude


Jepacor

It seemed to me in both this and his set against ApolloKage ESAM couldn't get his combo game going and it ended up hampering him tremendously. Against Snake it's obvious grenade makes comboing him so much harder but you have to wonder if ESAM still suffers for these consistency issues even after quarantine from his close calls earlier in bracket and this set.


MasterBeeble

Before quarantine, after quarantine, ten years ago, doesn't matter. ESAM's always been a crazy inconsistent player with crazy peaks. That's probably never going to change, and it's why watching him is so interesting. He could destroy or get destroyed by anyone, whether they're top 10000 or top 1 in the world.


extremely_online_

absolutely delighted by how much icymist is cleaning up after so long since her last showing. insane


wworms

samus busted???


Dici_SSB

not even. put some 'spect on icy's name.


ZLBuddha

samus cringe af


Raziel_01

> Chrom (Ultimate)


SquidGamer15

Bayonettas started preforming excellently after Bayonetta 3 reveal. Samuses started preforming excellently after Metroid Dread released. I am liking this pattern, amazing IcyMist performance, it didn't even seem close in either Pikachu game and the comeback during game 2 was also great.


Hotquakes

Maybe Link can win a major after the next botw 2 trailer drops.


MySonsdram

Samus has always been fresh as hell. Nobody likes her though because of the Spamus' out there. Glad to see IcyMist showing the world what Samus can do.


CabassoG

He doesn't mist


bigassdotorg

But he just missed, he lost to IcyMist and her sick samus


Bergerboy14

Esamuel is having a rough day


Jonge720

I played icymist at a weekly once and it was closer than this. Yikes


_sjm_

Samus is actually quite a bad matchup for Pika, and people need to start realizing that.


mahapai

The rollercoaster ride of being an ESAM fan!


irishsaltytuna

Nature is healing


pika_pie

Are there any Pikachu mains who can enlighten us lesser-experienced players on why this looked so one-sided? I've never seen a Samus or a Pikachu main say that this is a bad or even matchup for Pikachu, and yet the best Pikachu player in the world didn't look like he was ever in control.


[deleted]

Im no expert on Pikachu but Esam is notoriously inconsistent to the point where some tournaments he will double eliminate Leo and some (like today) he just loses to people he should be heavily favoured against


PaperSonic

Not an expert on analyzing matches but I do play Samus, and I think IcyMist was really good at escaping disadvantage, using Morph Ball and good DI to escape possible thunders without burning a resource. In fact, she only got hit by one thunder in the whole set.


ppld1234

Samus main who watches a lot of Pika gameplay From what I understand, Pika has a +1 to +3 matchup against almost all the cast. So a measly +0.5 makes it one of their hardest matchups Pika's biggest tool in neutral is T-jolt, it let's them approach behind it, camp, edge-guard, and ledge-trap. Hardly any character can combat it, but those that can become become Pika's hardest MUs (think Ness with PsyMagnet or G&W with bucket) Samus has the ability to shoot a half charged CS and it'll go straight through T-jolt and hit the Pika on the other end, and a lot of times leading to a combo. Samus also has great directional and recovery mix-up potential with movement (great air drift, b-reverses, and BOMB) which can make combo follow-ups and edge-guarding her very difficult Mix in her fantastic ledge-trapping and ability to use CS to cover quick attack into stage and you have a recipe for a difficult matchup. The biggest reason I think ESAM lost though was a mentality thing. He does have an issue with consistency and as shown with his match with MinMin (possibly the worst MU for Samus in the game) he just wasn't able to keep up Icymist's decision making and reads Hope this helps!


MitchBerryCrunch

and that's why you can't become the #1 player based on one tournament win. anyone calling him #1 after winning glitch was crazy. over the course of multiple tournaments esam will never come close to Leo's consistency


TitariusAzah

No one called him #1 but he was #1 seed at this particular tournament


MitchBerryCrunch

plenty of ppl did after he won glitch


eddieknj

Best female smasher?


HughyHugh

Still probably Moxi (Pandarian) but IcyMist is insanely cracked yea


FreezieKO

[...](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/q9lf6o/comment/hgwsvrf/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)


SuperHazem

[four months ago](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/nxtwdo/after_a_few_months_of_offline_sephiroth_emerges/h1huc6j/?context=3)


FreezieKO

For sure. I’ve been on this train for a while.


Hotquakes

The pika cult will never listen, lmao.


backboarddd1_49402

Does that “cult” include the majority of top players (including Tweek and Leo) that continues to put Pikachu top 3 in their tier lists well before Glitch, after Glitch, and will keep him there even after today? Only on Reddit and Twitter do people keep an eagle’s eye out on Pika’s results this hard. Pro players don’t care as much because they know Pikachu just has *that* good of a MU spread and has very few weaknesses to warrant keeping him top 3.


Hotquakes

Top players are not immune to having bad takes. Remember the "Inkling is definitely top tier" train going around? Your point about Pikachu's matchup spread only works if it is actually that ridiculous. To be frank, I don't think it is remotely as crazy as many players think. If you were to move literally every character on it one spot down, it would likely be more accurate. For instance, having Game & Watch in slightly losing seems absurdly optimistic considering his set count against Maister.


t123fg4

Appeal to authority smh


Kraftgesetz_

[... ](https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/q9lf6o/-/hgwu2zq)


FreezieKO

Did you just link to a post using the exact excuse of “a single upset” after the second upset?


Kraftgesetz_

Do you really Not understand that esam is obviously having a bad day and that this cant really be used to judge pikachu as a character? This is an esam result, Not a pikachu result


FreezieKO

>Do you really Not understand that esam is obviously having a bad day and that this cant really be used to judge pikachu as a character? What gives you such certainty? Did you talk to ESAM? How often should we consider other players' "bad days" when evaluating their characters? Did you know Abadango got 13th place with Pikachu last night, underperforming his seed?


TypingMonkey59

So then what *can* be used to judge pika as a character?


HeinousActsZX

When ESAM wins, it's because Pikachu is busted. When ESAM loses, it's because he as a player is inconsistent. It's moving the goalposts and it happens every time.


backboarddd1_49402

The exact same thing happens the other way too. When ESAM gets several top 8s, the goalposts move to “ wasn’t there” or “it’s not a win”. When he wins, it’s just an outlier and not indicative of the character. When he loses before top 8, suddenly results are the most important factor in tier lists (lol) and it proves Pikachu isn’t top 5.


t123fg4

If anything the glitch win revealed that pikachu isn’t as good as people think. Pikachu going game 5 against a supposed +2 matchup proves that his matchups aren’t that good. Esam dropping up air bridges constantly proves that up air bridges aren’t really practical for tournaments. Pikachu having to kill at 140+ unless an edgeguard is landed proves his deficiency in killing. Pikachu dying at 70 off of a single read proves that his survivability is rather low. Pikachu having to land frame perfect combos for decent damage proves his damage is meh. Pikachu being punished for pushing advantage shows us his committalness Esam did beat leo and win the tournament but at the same time a diddy(character that certainly isn’t top 3) player have done that too.


sneakyplanner

Looking at his kit, frame data, launch angles, combos and damage. This is all just an example of why you never try to argue with results-minded people on their own terms because there is no consistent standard.


TypingMonkey59

Looking at a character's kit in the abstract is what had people thinking that G&W was low tier and that K. Rool was a crazy good character. Heck, people might still be thinking G&W is low-tier if it weren't for Maister. While there is value to theorycrafting, at the end of the day it's just making an educated guess. Different people can look at the same character's kit and come to very different conclusions. Some people look at Pikachu's kit and say that, while he's definitely a good character, he's definitely not the best, while others look at him and say he's definitely the best. In Japan, for instance, ZSS is commonly considered the best character in the game. How do we determine which is right? While in many cases we can't tell for certain, results can give good evidence in favor of one theory or against another. For instance, Marss has Pikachu as a -2 matchup for ZSS, yet his ZSS has not dropped a single game against ESAM's pikachu. Some of his victories were even 2-stocks, and this despite them being relatively close in skill level. This strongly suggests, though it doesn't necessarily prove, that Marss is wrong about the matchup. The theory that pikachu is the best character in the game is not an unreasonable one, but it is unreasonable to act like it's objective fact when there's so little supporting evidence and there's just as much of an argument for numerous other characters being the #1.


t123fg4

marss is a clown for putting pika in -2 lol, don’t take his matchup chart seriously


TypingMonkey59

That's exactly what I'm saying.


sneakyplanner

> Looking at a character's kit in the abstract is what had people thinking that G&W was low tier and that K. Rool was a crazy good character. Are we just making shit up at this point? Nobody can look at G&W up b and say "That is a low tier move", the reason people didn't respect the character in the early days was because nobody was paying attention, not that they thought his kit was bad.


TypingMonkey59

>the reason people didn't respect the character in the early days was because nobody was paying attention, not that they thought his kit was bad. The two are not mutually exclusive. Also, you failed to address my broader point regarding the limitations of theorycrafting and the value of results for deciding which theory is most likely to be correct.


Fall3nBTW

I think I trust the hundreds of pro players who agree pikachu is top 3 over you, a random redditor.


FreezieKO

And I’ll trust the hundreds of top players like VoiD and Protobanham who know Pikachu isn’t top 3. But if all you want to do is follow top players, may I recommend Twitter?


Fall3nBTW

There arent hundreds of pro players that think that. Pikachu has it all, just because there isn't anyone good enough with him doesn't make him not top 3. Optimal pikachu is lame af which is why nobody wants to play him but the character is obviously busted.


[deleted]

[удалено]


FreezieKO

Abadango underperformed his seed last night and got 13th. ShinyMark didn’t even qualify for SWT. Weird how all the Pika players are inconsistent. I wonder why that is.


NoUsersame

It was brutal to watch


twoCascades

ESAM....god damn it man....


MySonsdram

Love to see a good Samus in action. Feels like most folks don’t care for her due to WiFi spam, but a Samus who knows the ins and outs of the character is a joy to watch.


Kell08

:(