Straight-up plagiarism (like, fully stealing someone's complete manuscript and trying to sell it exactly as is) is incredibly rare and genuinely not worth worrying about. No one's going to try to steal or copy your work. It's just not going to happen. The chances of it are astronomical. And if it does actually happen, as long as you can prove in some way that you wrote it first (which is pretty easy to do) you'll be fine. But it's for real not something you should bother worrying about. People who want to publish books want to publish their own works and their own ideas. They don't want to steal ideas from other people.

Actually- I have seen it happen. Several times. Copyright EVERYTHING you do! I have an author friend going thru it now. Not only did he steal her work, he does interviews and paid appearances to discuss " his" work. She is fighting a long, messy, expensive battle.

As an editor and a paid beta reader, I’d say this isn’t really something you need to worry about when working with a professional. If you find someone with decent reviews, recommendations, and a presence in the editing and beta reading community, they aren’t going to tank their entire business and livelihood to steal your draft. Some more established editors and readers will have contracts or terms of service that spell this sort of thing out, but I’d say it’s honestly a really minuscule risk even if they don’t have language/formalities around it. Find someone reputable, and they are already going to adhere to confidentiality as a standard of the business. I’m also a self-pub author. Guess which I make more money on: editing or publishing. Spoiler: It’s editing. It’s editing by a huge, ridiculous, crazy amount. I’m really not interested in taking someone else’s draft, that I will still have to do tons of work on to get it publishable, and trying to profit on it—while simultaneously tanking my editing career if that gets out to other editors and authors. It’s sort of a laughable idea.

I don't think the risks should be downplayed. The publishing industry is one of the most exploitative and predatory, especially to newbies. There are so many fake actors pretending to be who they're not and just waiting to exploit an unsuspecting newbie. I think a new author should be particularly careful and take precautions to hire someone recommended and to sign contracts. We've seen so many stories of people losing thousands of dollars to scammers. People finding their work has been stolen and published on Amazon even before they publish it. We shouldn't be talking of "minuscule risk" in such a shark-infested industry.

Really? So many stories? I've never heard of anyone sending their work to an editor / beta reader and having it stolen and put up on Amazon. I've found the indie ecosystem if you stick to recommended professionals to be remarkably safe . . . if you dumpster dive on fiverr for the lowest cost, bottom of the barrel or contract with a vanity press you might get scammed, I suppose. But I don't think those situations are too hard to avoid. Just remember: if you are paying anyone to publish you, you're getting scammed. If you're paying way, way, way below market rates, you might get scammed.

Why are you necessarily getting scammed if you use a publisher? It is a service that many pay for, so I would think by default, supply and demand, it’s not a scam. You can also change your own oil but millions of people pay to have it done. I don’t think there’s a huge set of people calling it a scam.

If you are paying for someone to publish, you are the product, not the book. Scam. Many people do it and we seem them here on the sub complaining about how much money they wasted. It’s actually really frustrating seeing it happen over and over again. Money flows from the publisher to the author in this business.

I realize how the money goes / flows. I just can’t personally attach the word scam to a business that works to get your book out. It is work that you have to do just like any other part of getting a book out. It’s like hiring a realtor. Sure you can say they charge way too much but millions of people gladly do it. And they do work. Probably a lot less than a publisher. But hey to each his own. I’m new here so my 2 cents is worth about that much.

Okay, yeah, I honestly don't want to sound like a jerk. It's not my intention. I'm being definitive on this subject because this is probably the biggest issue plaguing new self publishers. You can scroll through the posts here and see so many authors lamenting their experience with these companies. I'll just pull some recent ones out on this topic [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/selfpublish/comments/yrpbau/publishing_companies/), [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/selfpublish/comments/ymxw9d/gatekeeper_press/) and [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/selfpublish/comments/ysahu4/promises_made_and_deceived_writers_republic_scam/) To continue your mechanic analogy, it's like going to the shop with a problem that you could easily solve yourself like refilling the windshield wiper fluid and walking out with a 4-digit bill of fixes you didn't need. These companies, by and large, are crooked. They are businesses and their business model is extracting as much money as possible from authors. I will grant there may be some companies out there that honestly try and do a decent job, even if they charge more than they should for the quality they return (they would have to - it's their business model), but so, so many are just out there feeding on the naive. If you want to self-publish, research and do it yourself. No company you have to pay out there is as invested in your book as you are. At the very least research any company you are considering giving money to, scour Absolute Writer and Writer Beware for testimonials.

Like I said, I’m new here so not familiar with the typical post etc. So new I’m not even sure I know if I’m actually responding to you right now. Lol. I’m curious though to read through those you tagged and definitely will. I just don’t like to assume the worst. Not that it’s the same category but I like to think of myself as a pragmatist rather than an optimist or pessimist. I say it that way because, I think if they’re doing something I want done and I’m willing to pay that amount then I should bite my lip. With regard to realtors, mechanics, etc. I feel like realtors probably do less work than mechanics but I’m also more skeptical of the services provided. But that’s probably because I can’t see it. I don’t like going for a tire rotation and being told my rotors need replaced but I would also be po’d if I had just had my tires done and then had to go back for brake issues. Sort of damned if they do, damned if they don’t. I haven’t published a book yet so it’s difficult for me to add much specific to that but all businesses start out small and have to build and grow. My biggest concern honestly it the extraction of wealth being done by Amazon. The monopoly, I mean elephant, in the room that’s so big it can basic set new values for anything it decides. In the book realm they control nearly everything. They own Audible, and probably the largest “independent publishing” site. And offer a significant share more in royalties if you are exclusive to their platform. That’s a monopoly. Not to be too theoretical or idealistic about things but the billionaire is extracting that money directly from each of us will every transaction. Up until approximately the last 20 years or so what a person was worth (or what they could earn) was much more closely related to time. In a world where everything is digital, if I controls the process, I can extract as much as I want without providing any more effort or possibly even reducing the value. Now, I’m not saying there’s no value to Amazon but is it worth what they’re extracting. They’ve reached a size that make them impossible to compete with; which means they can do what they want rather than what benefits anyone else. They see that a particular length and color extension cord is a best seller and they recreate it, pay the manufacturer less and the consumer gets a cheaper product. We pay more for less and they split the extra money between his private island, buying more delivery trucks so they don’t have to pay UPS and their AI so they can figure out even more ways to get us to buy cheaper crap. Sorry for the rant. I hear myself yes. Sometimes you just have to finish the thought. 😂

I will grant that Amazon is a monopoly and it's dangerous to have them control so much of the book market - the entire book market, not just self publishing. But in this one small slice of their operations they are actually a really good partner for self publishers. I would say the current strength of the indie sphere is due to Amazon supporting self publishing and providing the tools necessary for us to thrive. The release of the Kindle, the creation of KU, and giving us the same visibility as trad books allowed so many of us to make living incomes from our writing, which is extremely difficult for even good-selling trad published authors. Getting 70% of the list price is amazing. Trad writers are not pulling in even a fraction of that net. I'm not saying that things won't change or that Amazon isn't a soulless capitalist behemoth . . . but it has been really, really good for self publishers. They basically created the entire industry, and for that I'm immensely grateful.

They do nothing for the 30% is my issue. Just like how they (and Apple) take a huge fee out of every transaction on their platform in order for you to post an app there. I’m working on an app and they’ll take more than what we make as a business, more than we pay the content provider… it’s just mind boggling. They control it and there’s no getting around it. It my issue with banks too. Go into any city and look around, look for the largest nicest real estate. It’s either a bank, hospital, church or insurance company. With the exception of the hospitals, what do any of the others do besides hold onto your money and take bits of it hoping you won’t notice or complain. We’ll that was up until the last decade or so. Now it’s the Amazon warehouses that you can see from space.

Vanity publishers are a scam because they present themselves as "publishers" and mimic other legitimate publishing houses when they're not the same. They don't deliver on their promises. Nobody would spend $6K - $15K just to edit, format, and print a few copies of a book. Customers are made to believe from the advertising that they would get the full treatment of a legitimate publishing house, which would include promoting and selling their book. Hence, those unsuspecting authors see that $6K as a small investment that could potentially return hundreds of thousands of dollars. And therein lies the scam. They don't realize that those people are NOT publishers. They are simply book printing agents - if we have to give them some kind of definition. They don't even know how to promote or market books, as that is not their area of expertise. Their area of expertise is taking money from newbie authors hoping to strike it big.

I’m going with semantics. I’m not sure I’d call it a scam. That’s all. Maybe they over charge. Maybe there are some out there that don’t want to do anything more than they’re doing. But my feeling is if they’re calling themselves publishers, then that’s what they essentially desire to be. Are they doing it well, that is debatable. Do some of them overcharge, sounds like it. Are they all scams, unlikely, but I’m also not an investigative reporter. You did call them vanity publishers. So… I mean I wouldn’t pay for a vanity plate but plenty of people do. The few things I’ve read from a few of these “vanity publishers” sounds like they do a good deal of guiding. I spoke to one, personally, but I’m not willing to part with that kind of $. Especially without any kind of guarantees.

They're actually called vanity press. You don't seem to understand their business model. They're not just bad publishers. They are actually VERY GOOD at what they do. It's a whole industry set up to exploit wannabe authors who can't get their books published with legitimate publishers. It is a well-known fact that the majority of new authors struggle to get their books accepted by publishing houses. So a whole industry spawned to exploit these people. They only pretend to be publishers, but they have no interest whatsoever in actually selling your book. That is not their business model. Every business has to have customers. For these guys, the potential buyers for your book are not their customers, so they don't put any real effort into that area. YOU are their customer, so they put every effort into getting money out of you. This is why we call it a scam. Their whole advertising is false. When someone presents themselves as something they're not, lies about providing services they don't and can't provide, and make promises they don't deliver. Why is that not clearly a scam to you? If you order what has been advertised as legitimate speakers and you receive a fake product that doesn't do what was advertised, meanwhile, there is no refund. Wouldn't you say you were scammed? Edit: Definition of scam - Cambridge Dictionary: a dishonest or illegal plan for making money, **especially one that involves tricking people**. Vanity press does fit that definition.

Yes, I agree what you're saying is a scam is a scam. I haven't looked into every single "vanity publisher" so I can't speak to each and every one of them. Again, I agree if they don't provide what they say they're going to provide, that's a scam. However, if they say hey we'll print your book and show you how to market and sell it and for that service we charge $7k and that's what they do and you're happy to pay it instead of searching for a cheaper or better option, then it's not really a scam. I have no doubt there ARE scammers out there. Not just people saying they're publishers and not doing shit for you but even worse. But I'm just as certain that there are great small businesses out there that are looking to do the best they can for you and are trying to grow their business. It's a question of how much "fake it until you make it" are they actually doing vs. just being a fake. I'm not arguing with you really. Again, I think it's a matter of semantics and what people are willing to pay for the amount of work they want to put in (on both sides). Lying and stealing is clearly a scam.

I have had " authors" steal my photos, work, etc and post it online. It is almost Continuous. Had a podcaster read through my book and call it their script. Bloggers, writers, etc copy/ paste chapters and summaries as their own.

The US, UK, CA, IE, AU, and NZ are all automatic copyright countries as far as I know. Once a work is in a fixed form (i.e. written, printed, saved digital file) it is automatically copyright by the author. * US Copyright Office Circular 1: [Copyright Basics](https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf) * US Copyright Office: [FAQ](https://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/) * [A guide to copyright](https://ised-isde.canada.ca/site/canadian-intellectual-property-office/en/copyright/guide/guide-copyright) from Canadian Intellectual Property Office * [What is copyright](https://www.bl.uk/business-and-ip-centre/articles/what-is-copyright) (British Library)

Usually with an editor you'd sign a contract that would hold up legally if they tried to steal your stuff. But really, most professionals out there editing and/or beta reading aren't looking to steal your ideas.

Work with trusted professionals and there should be some kind of contract/T&Cs for the paid services that cover you in case something crops up, but reputable editors are busy dealing with manuscripts of varying quality day in and day out and have better things to do than take random self published books and try to turn a profit on them! If you are a proven bestseller already that’s a different story but the approach is the same which is to work with professionals.

Unless your name is Stephanie Meyer and your book is *Midnight Sun*, the chance that anyone wants to steal it is essentially zero and not worth worrying about.

Get a good one. Not the cheapest you can find.

Also when people say “professional” does Reedsy and Fiverr qualify as professional as long as I’m being a bit selective or should I be looking elsewhere?

Reedsy for sure. Fiverr.... YMMV (Greatly).

Fiverr and Upwork run the gamut; Reedsy weeds out more of the low end. I'd pick Upwork over Fiverr, but I'm partial because I edit on Upwork. :)

Hire actual professionals on Upwork.

Watermarks for betas. For editors, there's really not much you can do except maybe using one who's recommended by a trusted source/friend.

Hmmm. You get copyright when you print, don't you? Doesn't that include *Author Copies*??? Print a few of those, they're handy for beta readers, and to write notes in! You should ALREADY have the copyright page in your front matter!!! You'll have the Amazon order to establish the date!

> You get copyright when you print, You get copyright in the US as soon as the thing is fixed in some form, so in a digital file you have copyright as soon as you save the file.

Right, but if the "editor" uploads that file to KDP before you, then YOU are the copyright violator. I have heard about this happening to numerous people who use "advanced reader" services like BookSprout and BookSirens.

No, you're not. You can still produce the original file dated before their upload. You can produce the text messages or emails showing where you spoke to them about editing services and sent them the file.

I mean yeah, but OP is talking editing phase. This issue doesn't run as rampant as people think it does.

No, it doesn't. It's usually completely unfounded, but try explaining that to someone. Easier to let them establish copyright at each major edit with a $5.00 author copy! Hell, by the time I publish, I have a dozen copies!!! I proof hard and paper covers, and use them for detailed edits and betas.

Why waste that time and money though, when you can just use that money to file legal copyright once published?

I get them anyway. I never thought of the copyright angle till now. Don't you order author copies before publishing? To proof the cover color? To overview? For beta readers? For yourself? I find it very motivating to have a hardcopy of my nearly-done work on my desk. I put a revision number on the copyright page to keep track of them.

I rarely utilize author copies anymore, and keep a copy of what I order to sell at events/on my website. Besides, I'm not entirely sure author copies prove copyright unless it's fully published. Especially where Amazon is concerned. They'll pull your books even if you do have legal/federal copyright certificates because a bot noticed something. But that's only 1 of the issues with them, and we don't need yo clog the comments with all that nonsense 😉

You could register the draft you submit to the editor prior to sending your manuscript. Downside, depending on how much changes, you might have to register again.

When people are saying author copies what do you mean? Can I get it printed on KDP without publishing it?

You can, but it's unnecessary unless uou want a proof copy to check before publishing. These have strips across the cover that state "not for resale", and are only (IMO) good for checking your formatting and maybe a last typo check. Cost varies depending upon trim size, page count, and a few other things.

I can recommend an excellent editor.