T O P

Google had a plan called "Project NERA" to turn the web into a walled garden

Google had a plan called "Project NERA" to turn the web into a walled garden

Pesthuf

Google: Third party cookies are bad! They allow evil companies to track users across websites! Since we care SOO much about our customers' privacy, we'll banish them! Also Google: *X-client-data übercookie that is sent to every Google website you visit on Chrome* Hmm. It's almost as if they do what they do not for privacy, but to make sure the competition can't compete with them...


WTFwhatthehell

Yep, they're trying to use their dominance of the phone browser market to give advantage in the advertising market. it's simple anticompetitive practices


Alikont

The complaint: https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/60149069/152/in-re-google-digital-advertising-antitrust-litigation/


shevy-ruby

The word "had" is wrong. Google is still doing the same - just using other words for it now. There is a reason why AMP was called Google's private web. Google only dropped the name; the underlying use case (from THEIR point of view) was never changed.


drysart

Remember how some people said things like AMP weren't really about speeding up the web like Google publicly claimed, but were really about usurping control of the web? Turns out that was *literally true*, that's *exactly* what Google was strategizing internally. If this isn't a wakeup call to stop using Google's products and services, then at this point *nothing* will ever convince you that they're not only willing to sell you up the river, but they're *actively doing it already*.


MegaDork2000

Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


josefx

Take a look at one of those ancient IE bogged down by unwanted toolbars snapshots. They have always been part of the problem. The difference is that back then they were an evil flea surrounded by elephants, now they have grown into an elephant themselves.


miketdavis

Fuck AMP. I literally will never click a single amp link. Google is trying to become 1995 Microsoft.


shevy-ruby

Unfortunately Google is way more powerful than MS was in 1995. What I find much more interesting is how judges in the 1990s were annoying MS - but nobody is seriously annoying Google nowadays. (The tiny fines from the EU don't change the abuse situation when you have a de-facto monopoly: aka the advertisement stuff.)


wmil

These documents are literally from an ongoing antitrust trial, so don't give up hope.


HSP95

I’m old enough to make an educated guess that it will keep going for many years, for publicity, Google will acknowledge nothing, but will end paying a fine anyway for some reason. The politicians will celebrate the historic $10 trillion dollar fine they just put out for big evil Google. Google will appeal the size of the fine itself and it will go through court once, lowering it from $10 trillion to $890 billion. And then Google will appeal again somehow, challenging a new technicality and have it lowered to, optimistically speaking, something around $450 million USD, with a clause that absolves Google of anything they were ever accused of, even though they never admitted guilt to anything. This process will take 7 or 15 years, depending on the mood and public response. Oh, and the juridical process won’t end up using the real power of justice to raid, subpoena or interrogate anything/anyone of real value. I’m convinced Google even has digital countermeasures to any local raids, just like Uber had. Who the fuck can figure anything out at Google without complete corporation? They can literally afford the worlds best engineers and nobody is going to work at the government that can go anywhere near understanding where data is hidden, if Google tried actively to hide it. Nobody at Google likely even understands much else than their own job or department, because it’s so freaking big. The CEO of Google might end up going on display in the senate during all of this, just as Facebook does every once in a while at this point. It’s going to be for publicity sake, all parties involved. In the end it’s going to be nothing but the tiniest of scratches. If the justice system goes at it, full power, it’s going to be like Tony Stark giving 100% and Thanos wiping the tiniest droplet of blood from his mouth. I don’t even want to call it corruption or a big evil mega conspiracy, it’s just the simple size and monetary power of a corporation like Google. If we aren’t at war and have to abide by the law, Google can stall infinitely and literally out-fund any government action.


delfinom

Politicians don't hand out fines in lawsuits. Judges do.


HSP95

Appointed by politicians directly or indirectly, at least in the US. This is a very political case.


BobHogan

Don't keep your hopes up either. Its more likely that Google will outright win this trial than the courts decide that it violated antitrust laws. And even if they *do* find that, the solution will not be anything meaningful


[deleted]

[удалено]


corruptedOverdrive

I hate both Android and iOS. Android vacuums up all your data and cares not about your privacy and iOS phones have always been behind the features of Android phones. I mean FFS the iPhone 13s STILL only have a 60hz refresh rate. There's Android phones rocking a 144hz refresh rate which are still in the mid tier price range, it's crazy. EDUT: Corrected typo


SpaceToaster

Is it really worth the extra battery drain?


bighi

Nope. I've had Android phones with 120Hz screens and never noticed any difference. Actually, I've noticed a difference when compared to older Android phones. My Galaxy S8 seemed to scroll much slower than iphones. My Galaxy S21 with a 120Hz screen now feels as smooth as the 60Hz screen on my iphone 11.


vgf89

Android 11 really improved responsiveness even on 60Hz imo.


bighi

Oh, so... one less reason to praise 120Hz, lol. Maybe the responsiveness I've seen is because of Android 11 and not because of 120Hz.


vgf89

It's definitely both. Android 11 is just another factor


SpaceToaster

They probably did an overhaul of the kernel and input layer. That’s one thing that iOS did right (and early android lagged behind) was optimize the kernel to create the shortest path between touch and app response.


jonnablaze

Why do I need 120hz or 144hz on my phone?


corruptedOverdrive

".... an increase in smoothness and responsiveness are the primary benefits you’ll get from an increased refresh rate. Scrolling through your apps and swiping across menus will feel smoother and more responsive as a result of the higher refresh rate. Motion blur — the blur you see between actions — will also be reduced as a result of the higher refresh rate." https://www.digitaltrends.com/mobile/refresh-rate-smartphone-screen-explainer/


BigHandLittleSlap

iPhone 13 Pro has a 120 Hz screen. One reason it wasn't included in older models is because on less capable GPUs and older screen technology 120 Hz kills the battery life and would overheat phones even if just scrolling around in web pages. So you've got to wonder how Android phones solved this. The answer is: they didn't. They just ignored the problems and shipped the feature, sometimes *hilariously broken*. One early 120 Hz model literally could not push pixels out of the GPU fast enough, so if you enabled 120 Hz it would *reduce the resolution* and then upscale. This would blur everything slightly and give users eye strain. Other models stutter visibly when they can't quite keep up consistently, making them worse than 60 Hz. Basically any time year hear about "but my Android has had this for years!", then when you look closer the story always ends up just like this. Android has a half-baked solution that's there to just tick a checkbox, and iPhones do it two years later, but *properly*. PS: The encryption on Androids is basically: "Yes".


EnvironmentalCrow5

90 Hz worked just fine on many Android phones for years though...


Ispiro

Not sure which Android phone you were using but if it really was years ago, I bet it's an LCD and not OLED (which is what Apple uses). Also, a big "constraint" that Apple has which Android phones don't care about is the consistency of the screen. You can buy 2 high quality monitors (same brand same model) and put them next to each other, you'll still find that they don't look exactly the same without calibration. The same was true for Nexus 6p and Pixel 3/4a (my last Android phones). That issue is even more obvious with OLED panels. But hold up an iPhone next to any other iPhone on the planet basically and they will probably look identical. The technology to get consistent and accurate 120hz OLED screens really wasn't there yet until very recently. Edit: Apple is missing a lot of software features though, and even when it does add those features, it doesn't provide the user with full control over them. Hardware-wise though, Apple has one of the most power-efficient & fast processors. It has a significantly big battery (comparable even to Androids), and one of the longest battery life in any flagship phone. They also don't use and abuse your data which is always a plus.


josefx

What is it even good for outside of VR?


EnvironmentalCrow5

More premium feel due to animation/scrolling smoothness. Same reason as using aluminum/glass backs instead of plastic, or having good haptics, or other such improvements that go beyond basic functionality.


corruptedOverdrive

So which "early models" are you referring to? I'm getting a very Apple fan Boi vibe with your comment, not sure why....


BigHandLittleSlap

Quote: "Most of the best Samsung phones these days are equipped with a buttery-smooth 120Hz display, but to enjoy that high refresh rate, you've typically been limited to a 1080p maximum resolution." From: https://www.androidcentral.com/how-enable-both-120hz-and-quad-hd-your-samsung-galaxy-s21-ultra Full resolution *combined with* 120 Hz at the same time first appeared in the S21 Ultra, which is a phone from this year. Even on that phone, 120 Hz + full resolution is *not the default*, hence the need for a guide to tell you how to turn it on. 120 Hz was usable in games in some older Android phones, but was upscaled, typically with non-integer scaling -- hence always blurry. Battery life was too poor for 120 Hz to be enabled by default until LTPO AMOLED was developed by Samsung. That first appeared this year in the S21 and the iPhone 13. Any older phone didn't have that technology.


imdyingfasterthanyou

>PS: The encryption on Androids is basically: "Yes". it uses luks and dm-crypt with dm-verity and selinux providing integrity and MAC. "yes"


BigHandLittleSlap

Precisely. That’s encryption in the sense that “yes, it is encrypted.” iPhones have four different types/levels of encryption to counter attacks at the various stages of the phone being unlocked. The FBI complained they’re couldn’t decrypt iPhones. Apple shrugged and said that’s their problem. Did you notice how the FBI didn’t complain about Androids? That’s because encryption alone doesn’t guarantee anything. A locked door provides no security whatsoever if the key is hanging by a cord right next to it…


imdyingfasterthanyou

go read the code, it's open. Find the backdoor in the encryption system. The same system that's used on Linux servers that keep your financial data secure. Modern Android has exactly the same levels of security, bootloader locked and integrity verified by a trusted chip. I'm gonna stop replying because I don't like the conspiranoia vibes I'm getting.


BigHandLittleSlap

The FBI did read the code, and found a back door. Random Internet comments aren't the threat, state-sponsored organisations and malware written by the Russian mafia are the threat. I could go track down the 1 hour long presentation I watched about the differences in iPhone and Android encryption security, but it was three years ago and I can't be bothered. If you feel that your data is safe in the hands of an ad company that sells your information as their *primary product*, then you can rest easy. Don't question your choice of mobile platform. Assume the worst of Apple and everyone warning you about Android on the Internet, they're clearly wrong. Only Google has your best interests at heart...


The_Arjdroid

If you're concerned about privacy on Android, you can simply choose not to use android with Google Play Services, there are plenty of custom ROMs out there for privacy like LineageOS, GrapheneOS (Pixel Only) CalyxOS (Pixel only), out of the three, I'd say CalyxOS has the best balance between privacy and functionality as in you can actually still use most of ur apps thanks to microG and the Aurora Store although IDK how long it'll be till Google completely takes them down... In the end, you're trading functionality / seamless compatibility for privacy. Ideally, there'd be some way to pay for privacy and though maybe some could argue Apple gets close to that, they could still be just as shady and we wouldn't know.


Ameisen

I miss Windows Mobile. As an OS, it was fantastic.


cinyar

I retired my Lumia 820 because my bank stopped supporting the app. But it served me well for like 5 years and in true nokia fashion not a scratch on it.


corruptedOverdrive

Same here. They made some huge blunders and never seemed to recover which is sad. A lot of their phones were way ahead of their time. USB C charging, AMOLED screens, good battery management, dual Sim card, wireless charging and some of the best optics for their cameras. The OS was buttery smoith to boot.


Psypriest

What were some of the blunders?


nachohk

> iPhone 13s STILL only have a 60ghz refresh rate. There's Android phones rocking a 144ghz refresh rate If you want people to take your opinions seriously, then you should probably learn the difference between hertz (hz) and gigahertz (ghz).


corruptedOverdrive

So totally disregard my point for an auto correct typo? Yeah totally makes sense.


bighi

I don't agree on disregarding someone's opinion because of a typo. But that was definitely not autocorrect.


raze4daze

Yeah he’s bullshitting lol


moonsun1987

I have a poco x3 pro so maybe more expensive panels show the difference better but I can't tell between 60 and 120 in normal use.


SirFritz

I have a poco x3 nfc and definitely notice if I swap between the two. But having said that I run mine on 60hz because it saves a bit of battery.


cubic_thought

I'm surprised auto correct would give you incorrect capitalization and no space. The proper symbol for herts is Hz and gigahertz is GHz.


anth2099

> There's Android phones rocking a 144hz refresh rate which are still in the mid tier price range, it's crazy. wow, rocking a mostly useless feature.


Gropah

The apple ecosystem is also its own sort of walled garden, which is very innovation unfriendly. Examples are ~~having to pay to be able to dev for your own phone and~~ not unlocking some hardware features to non-Apple devs (like they did for a long time with NFC). edit: appearently they lifted some restrictions.


jabedude

> having to pay to be able to dev for your own phone Absolutely misinformation. You should correct your post


FVMAzalea

You don’t have to pay to develop for your own device, and you haven’t for several years.


NostraDavid

Every time I click on an AMP website, on my phone, my brain goes "why does my browser feel broken?" after which I realize it's an AMP site :/ Normal sites show my URL bar when I somewhat scroll up. AMPs don't. Fuck AMP. Also fuck Reddit for supporting AMP, instead of fixing their shit.


postblitz

This was apparent to everyone the moment news of chrome being google's spyware were released. Firefox or bust.


Caraes_Naur

Every big tech firm wants to become a new incarnation of AOL, the ultimate Internet walled garden.


ShameNap

The clue is when they dropped the motto “don’t do evil”. Literally executives had meetings and came to the conclusion that “don’t do evil” did not match their values and they actively retracted it. Think about that for a minute.


snowe2010

For fucks sake, they didn’t drop the fucking motto. Does anyone here bother researching anything or do you all just repeat whatever you’ve seen on Facebook. It’s literally right there in their [fucking CoC.](https://abc.xyz/investor/other/google-code-of-conduct/)


shevy-ruby

The motto wasn't that relevant though. Not that I disagree with your; the timing is quite ok, though I'd put it a few years before they officially dropped it. We just need to avoid ending up with "Bill Gates said 640KB RAM is enough for everyone", and then wonder why we quote something that wasn't really said in the given context. For instance, it were to assume that Google prior to that was not "evil" - but if you study the early history, Google was bullying too. Not as much as MS in the 1990s but still.


bighi

But the person above you didn't say Google wasn't evil before that. Read the comment again. They said that's when Google looked at their motto and realized it didn't match their values. Which means that "don't be evil" was already not matching their values. Doesn't mean they started at that moment.


anth2099

They were doing so much evil before that.


poloppoyop

> The clue is when they dropped the motto “don’t do evil”. I'm almost sure they dropped it long after creating analytics. Google Analytics is one of the worst evil created on the web.


nowuknoimpaperthin

My next mobile device is going to be a [Fair Phone](https://www.fairphone.com/en/) and I'm going to have 2. one for work where I need access to android apps using lineage os and another using manjaro as my daily driver. I refuse to go to another closed ecosystem (apple, if it isn't obvious). I no longer actively support, and in fact recommend against, Microsoft or related products. I've even gotten a considerable amount of ppl to switch to Linux and they're happy with it. they all ask me why Linux isn't more popular after experiencing it. we need to support decentralized software. it's the only way out of this mess.


falconfetus8

One does not simply "stop using Google". Whether it's Android, Gmail, or even YouTube, there's always one Google service you can't realistically avoid.


bobcottle

I am still waiting to find what Google's real strategy is behind PageSpeed and Lighthouse.


Lalli-Oni

As far as I understand the document it states that AMP improves "median-performance" AND slows down experience of some users. Isnt it a bit disinenuous to say it has no positive impact on performance?


Uristqwerty

It's better than a terribly-optimized, bogged-down-by-20-metrics-packages, or 30MB-video-background page. If developers actually care about performance and are empowered to reject or compromise on feature demands with disproportionate weight, AMP provides substantially less value, even reducing the maximum attainable performance. It'd be like saying "perl and python are slow, so everybody *must* use Go from now on", completely ignoring the C and C++ programmers beating Go's absolute best.


Lalli-Oni

Not sure if I understand. It provides performance improvements on badly optimized sites but performance impact on optimized one? If 90% of requests are un-optimized then wouldn't it result in a net gain? Isn't there a way to benchmark and route accordingly?


Uristqwerty

What is the incentive to use AMP in the first place? That's where all the trouble lies. Without an incentive, the poorly-performing sites largely won't bother (after all, it'd force them to drop features!), but if the incentive is to *use AMP* instead of reach performance targets, it's funnelling the web into a miserable little walled garden of technology. If the incentive is instead based on performance metrics, AMP is heavy in some areas so the metrics will be shaped around it.


Lalli-Oni

eech, i didnt know it was a development framework -_-' thought it all worked post-build. thpught i didnt know so little about it. thanks


Nerwesta

"some people" ? The way you phrase it makes it that a lot of people genuinely fell for that spin, I mean I don't know if it's my bias but I thought it was public knowledge for ages.


[deleted]

I would if I wasn’t broke lol


IshKebab

I think there's a lot of damning stuff in this complaint, but they don't appear to have any evidence that Google did lie about AMP improving load times. I mean, it very obviously improved load times for me. I think AMP was very successful on that front. Obviously I'm not saying that they didn't have additional less good motivation for AMP. But I don't think they were just lying about speeding up the web.


4759784

>I think there's a lot of damning stuff in this complaint, but they don't appear to have any evidence that Google did lie about AMP improving load times. The debate isn't whether or not AMP improves load times, it's whether Google was using it to usurp control of the web. Imagine there was a serial killer who bought guns from a local gun store. He claimed that he was doing it to support the local economy, but in reality he was buying the guns so that he could murder children. Your argument would be analogous to saying "well there's no evidence that he wasn't supporting the local economy". Okay... but that misses the point entirely.


mb862

It's tangential to the problem at hand (Google closing the web) but "AMP improves load times" itself also misses the point is that AMP is a solution to a self-made problem. The vast majority of websites the actual content is in the 100s of kilobytes range max, but the page loads AMP is solving are in the 10s of megabytes range due to all the excess scripting that is included. Scripting that for the most part is to run tracking and advertising, which perhaps not invented by but certainly mass-marketed by Google.


drysart

> I think there's a lot of damning stuff in this complaint, but they don't appear to have any evidence that Google did lie about AMP improving load times. An initial complaint filing isn't where evidence is presented. A complaint lists out the things you believe you have evidence to support to justify a trial. Evidence is then shared during discovery processes, and shown *during* trial. This is a filing by *several states' attorneys general*. They have the evidence to back up every claim they make in the complaint; because multi-state AG actions don't fuck around. If the complaint says that Google knew the speed claims were false, then they absolutely have evidence that shows Google knew that.


anonymousredditor0

Do you have a link or source for that? I didn't read the long pdf, but on Twitter there is only a criticism that _maybe_ AMP didn't make 100% of websites load faster.


Pelera

Source: the long PDF, pages 95-96. >248\. After crippling AMP’s compatibility with header bidding, Google went to market >falsely telling publishers that adopting AMP would enhance page load times. But Google >employees knew that AMP only improves the “median of performance” and AMP pages can >actually load slower than other publisher speed optimization techniques. In other words, the >ostensible benefits of faster load times for a Google-cached AMP version of a webpage were not >true for publishers that designed their web pages for speed. Some publishers did not adopt AMP >because they knew their pages actually loaded faster than AMP pages. > >249\. The speed benefits Google marketed were also at least partly a result of Google’s >throttling. Google throttles the load time of non-AMP ads by giving them artificial one-second >delays in order to give Google AMP a “nice comparative boost.” Throttling non-AMP ads slows >down header bidding, which Google then uses to denigrate header bidding for being too slow. >“Header Bidding can often increase latency of web pages and create security flaws when executed >incorrectly,” Google falsely claimed. Internally, Google employees grappled with “how to >[publicly] justify [Google] making something slower.” > >250\. Despite the speed benefits Google falsely touted, publishers did not want to use AMP >because AMP pages caused their advertising revenue to decline: publishers make less money >selling advertising on AMP pages than they do on their regular web pages. AMP also degraded >quality by restricting content and ad types.


shevy-ruby

Wow - I would have expected Google to be smarter than that, but that is shocking. I mean, everyone who studied Strategy 123 can see that, but HOW evil Google really became via AMP is shocking. You really can't trust any of their PR outlets - it's just a waste of time to even read it ... it's literally a pre-scripted blueprint that was FACTUALLY incorrect. I am sure there are more parts than these ... by the way props for reading that. That's overwhelmingly Evil.


josefx

> You really can't trust any of their PR outlets - it's just a waste of time to even read it A look at their Google StreetView war driving responses is fun. The entire effort had been signed of by management, had whitepapers describing the features, quality assurance targets, etc. . Google fought tooth and nail to keep the "single rogue engineer" narrative alive every time external investigators unearthed another part of the big picture.


drysart

It starts at the bottom of page 89 in [the full complaint](https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.nysd.564903/gov.uscourts.nysd.564903.152.0_1.pdf), the first bit that summarizes what follows is screenshotted [here](https://i.imgur.com/GAFyqqd.png). Specific quotes: > To respond to the threat of header bidding, Google created Accelerated Mobile Pages (“AMP”), a framework for developing mobile web pages, and made AMP essentially incompatible with JavaScript and header bidding. Google then used its power in the search market to effectively force publishers into using AMP. [...] > Google ad server employees met with AMP employees to strategize about using AMP to impede header bidding, addressing in particular how much pressure publishers and advertisers would tolerate. First, Google restricted the AMP code to prohibit publishers from routing their bids to, or sharing their user data with, more than a few exchanges a time, thereby severely limiting AMP’s compatibility with header bidding. However, Google made AMP fully compatible with routing to exchanges through Google’s ad server. Google also designed AMP to force publishers to route rival exchange bids through Google’s ad server so that Google could continue to peek at their bids and trade on inside information [...] > After crippling AMP’s compatibility with header bidding, Google went to market falsely telling publishers that adopting AMP would enhance page load times. But Google employees knew that AMP only improves the “median of performance” and AMP pages can actually load slower than other publisher speed optimization techniques. In other words, the ostensible benefits of faster load times for a Google-cached AMP version of a webpage were not true for publishers that designed their web pages for speed. AMP, from the start, was designed with the primary purpose of strangling out other ad providers. *Not* for speed.


Sad-Grapefruit9996

Typically I hate articles sourced from Twitter. But surprisingly a reliable source. Been trying to leave Google Drive forever but not many great options.


Plop1992

Theres literally hundreds of cloud storage services , man


Sad-Grapefruit9996

But not many can replace Google Drive, especially for programming purposes. If you recommendations though I’d be open to try them out. Also when I say google drive I mean the office tools, export/import file conversions, and the collaboration. Proprietary software is great but I can’t afford an entire suite of applications that compete with Google Drive. And open-source is another great option but again, not many compete with Google Drive. Dropbox is okay, however Dropbox is really on cloud storage. They rely heavily on Google Office Tools, which include the use of Google Drive.


soup_woman

GitHub


Sad-Grapefruit9996

Great recommendation. I personally love GitHub. I use it any way I can for projects. I wish it could replace Google Drive for me, but that would be very time-consuming to create a Repository for a non-code-based group of projects. However, I love the collaborations and use of Wiki's, Projects, and Gists, etc. They just need a way to include other tools such as spreadsheets, powerpoints, Calendar, email, and sync them.


Xx_heretic420_xX

You can get office web apps and skydrive from microsoft, but that's trading one devil for another.


HTTP_404_NotFound

Next cloud has an office suite plugin. And most of the same functionality, not as good, but, better then installing OpenOffice, libreoffice, or excel


Cowh3adDK

I really liked onedrive for my small projects with classmates, good windows integration, and allowed for the collaboration we needed, would also suggest nextcloud very similar to onedrive.


NonBinaryTrigger

I dont get the collaboration angle… you don’t have discord? Slack?


gcbirzan

Isn't this just the complaint? I can claim Google summoned Satan to increase their market share, that doesn't mean it's true. Yeah, it's coming from states themselves not some but job, but that doesn't automatically make it actual proof


Sad-Grapefruit9996

I should’ve added when you go to link there is a following post that links an actual source. https://twitter.com/fasterthanlime/status/1452059536743874562?s=20


gcbirzan

Yes, that's the complaint. That's the version the states put forth...


Sad-Grapefruit9996

I meant an actual source as in an a legit document. Typically when Twitter is used for a source it’s just a comment or a number of comments not cited. An official complaint from a State is still valid source. If the State of New York submits a complaint that Google summoned Satan, then yes it’s still a source not a great one though because now we should consider who TF is making this an official document of New York. I get what your saying though, the source is meaningless because it’s just a complaint. But it’s a source nonetheless. If the Twitter profile, @fasterthanlime didn’t include that article than this post would be completely useless.


s73v3r

They're not going to claim things in the complaint that they don't have supporting evidence for.


flekkzo

Chrome, AMP, everything they do. They are trying to turn the internet into an ad delivery system. Time to break up all the unnecessarily acquired companies that have turned into conglomerates. Like Android, YouTube, etc with Alphabet, and all the stuff that Facebook has gobbled up.


Objective-Two7326

Yet Google is continually idealised in this industry. Nothing will change.


api

It's left over goodwill from years ago when they were not a shit company.


Objective-Two7326

Ha and when was that exactly??


cdreid

When they started they were a legitimately positive to the world. Then the suits took over...


Objective-Two7326

It's not the suits.


postblitz

Only by the people with no real programming background. Everyone else *knew* Chrome = Spyware for years now.


space_iio

and they totally stopped it now


shevy-ruby

Not quite!


Eirenarch

Suddenly 90's Microsoft doesn't look so bad, does it?


bighi

Compared to Google, 90's Microsoft is a saint.


PhaseSea1141

Nah, they tried way scummier shit, they were just either missing tools or competence. '90s microsoft would totally spy on your every single click if they could get away with it


josefx

Both of them have an always on by default listening device in every home as a build in core feature of their products that cannot be fully removed.


bighi

Spying is not even close to the worst things Google is doing. And they have plans for even worse stuff than they're already doing. The only reason they haven't fucked the web completely yet is because they lack competence/organization. If Apple was in Google's position we'd be worse.


s73v3r

Hell, they do it now, with their Windows telemetry.


killerstorm

Ugh, no.


myringotomy

Google was working with Facebook and Microsoft on this.


Eirenarch

Yeah man, Google is working with Facebook and Microsoft on logging you into Chrome...


cdb_11

Yeah man, because corporations conspiring with each other to maintain their domination of the market never happened before.


Eirenarch

Obviously Google can log you into Chrome without conspiring with anyone. Why would they bother to do that?


cdb_11

They can, but that's not the only thing that they're accused of. They are allegedly colluding with Facebook and Microsoft to track the users across the web and to favor them in Google ads.


Eirenarch

So they collaborated on one out of like 10 things (not especially evil one either) and they are somehow in the same category?


josefx

Because it is easier to hide that you are intentionally getting people to sign in on Chrome when you get other companies to do it for you? It helps that they already have a long history of legally questionable agreements so what is one more request between friends.


Eirenarch

The other companies have nothing to do with the chrome sign in. That was sarcasm pointing out that most of the evil Google is doing is their own.


myringotomy

That's what the tweet says.


emperor000

Not really suddenly. It only took about 10 years before others (like Apple) started doing basically exactly the same thing, or worse, as Microsoft.


s73v3r

No, they still look pretty awful. I don't know why Google also being awful changes that.


wabty

It’s time to break-up all these big tech companies.


dnkndnts

Not going to happen. Big tech is perceived as being tied to national security, and hamstringing it is perceived as conceding the board to Chinese big tech. At most there will be minor formalities so it can be said something was done.


cdreid

China's big tech isnt compatible with western tech culturally. And DC isnt a fan of big tech.. either party....


postblitz

>a fan But they are customers. Zucc paid big dosh last election to pump democrats.


Xx_heretic420_xX

Also if you think the feds don't have their backdoors in every major US tech company you're naive. They like google's evil shit because it makes their "spying on american citizens illegally" job easier.


bighi

It's been that time for at least a decade.


RedPandaDan

AMP has been very useful in one respect, even before all this was released: You know everyone who supported it was a charlatan whose opinions on anything can be ignored. The issue now is what can be done about this? Google monopolizes search, ads, browsers, and it looks next to impossible to unseat them.


cdreid

It will literally just take someone with a good search algorithm willing to run their own web crawlers. Pretty much every search engine out there now uses google results. MS even got caught stealing their search data and claiming it was their own (nothing new to ms). Google became popular because it was less spammy than altavista etc. But the SEO's are constantly evolving their methods (i was one) and googles main tactic now seems to be to further and further limit peoples possible searches and direct them to the "known preferred" searchs and sites google prefers.


NonBinaryTrigger

I stopped using them because of this for anything but dev related stuff (which is still uncensored).


dert882

I feel like everyone is stupid if they aren't thinking there's some huge plot these companies are aiming for. It's just usually the other companies can get in their way. That's why Facebook teaming with Google would be so scary.


cdreid

Their plot is profit. None of that is a secret. If you research things you'll stop believing in bizarre conspiracies.


dert882

No shit, that's obviously what I was illuding to. No reason to be so toxic.


trilobyte-dev

"some huge plot" == a company strategy It's not a plot to have a plan for success and then to execute on it.


crabmusket

What would you say was a reasonable definition of a "plot" in the business sense?


trilobyte-dev

That's actually a pretty good question that I won't say I have a handy answer to. What I can say is that every business has a strategy for how to grow and be more successful, and that's usually something that's kept secret to the company. I don't see that as businesses "plotting" in any pejorative sense. Looking at the definition of "plot", and throwing out the narrative, gardening, and graphing related meanings, the definition that remains from Apple's Dictionary is: > a plan made in secret by a group of people to do something illegal or harmful I feel like "harmful" is too subjective to include, so let's throw that out. What we have left is: > a plan made in secret by a group of people to do something illegal In that sense, I wouldn't argue that there are some plots within businesses that are "plans to do something illegal", but a business operating w/in the law to execute on their strategy to be more successful wouldn't qualify to me. A company being misleading about their strategy may or may not be illegal, given the context, but I think it's really important to not make that call w/out looking at the context it's being given and relying on precedent. Which is a long way of saying, words really matter, and sometimes the right word can be tricky.


dert882

bro that's what i mean stop reading into it so much. I just mean it's a larger deal when 2 companies are monopolozing the internet. Reddit ppl smh.


nilamo

All of this looks like info that was already public knowledge, or at least heavily suspected.


IGI111

Well there's proof now. And some of this is literal crimes. Stuff you can actually prosecute. The people who want to break up Google will probably not get a better chance than this.


notoriouslyfastsloth

break up google? why, why do people want to break up all these successful companies?


IGI111

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust_(business) Whole bunch of reasons as it turns out.


HeadToToePatagucci

Lol. Hitler was very “successful” for a while also. So is Covid, and herpes, and foot fungus. That doesn’t mean they are good for humanity.


s73v3r

I mean, if the only reason they're successful is from doing shady shit, then why would we want to consider them "successful"? Further, there are far more remedies available for anti-competitive behavior than just breaking everyone up.


nilamo

Such as? I don't see anything in that twitter chain that's actually illegal, I don't think. Just looks like backroom deals between businesses, which all businesses do (heck, it's Walmart's primary business practice).


poloppoyop

Silicon Valley Cartel. If you think it stopped as [wage deflation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-Tech_Employee_Antitrust_Litigation) you are wrong.


[deleted]

[удалено]


FVMAzalea

Brave literally runs on Chromium and does shady shit (bordering on a pump and dump) with their BAT. Use Firefox or Safari instead, that is something that will actually promote independence on the web and the presence of browser engines that aren’t Chromium.


imdyingfasterthanyou

It's nice seeing someone else pointing out that the BAT thing is shady as fuck


LEmp_Evrey

Except don’t use Safari or you exchange one walled garden for another, just that the other one happens to be the new IE6.


imdyingfasterthanyou

Safari still uses a different engine so using it encourages Apple to not drop it in favor of yet another chrome clone


LEmp_Evrey

Fair point.


[deleted]

We need to do everything we can to prevent them from getting a monopoly.


Narishma

Don't they already have a monopoly?


[deleted]

Very close. Thankfully, not quite.


cdreid

used a search engine lately? You got google results...


[deleted]

You can use duck duck go


api

AMP telegraphed their intent to do this years ago. It was obvious. That's when I stopped giving a shit about Google.


reddit_insta_fb

Reading this comment section it seems everyone hates Google. Well then don't use it. No one is forcing you to and there are other options available like Bing. I personally think that Google has been the most helpful invention and the way they are giving access to information to societies with language barrier and low internet coverage like India is surely a positive thing.


s73v3r

And yet, they also do extremely shitty things that they don't need to be doing.


danilafe

Alright, so I won't use Google search, and use Bing instead. And for the sake of argument suppose that I, like a normal person, don't have hardware at home to host my own services. Now, then, what about: * Translation * Collaborative document editing * Video hosting and sharing * Making *my site* searchable (Google search console) * Mobile operating systems * File hosting and sharing Some of these you can get if you get an Apple device. Supposing that I can afford it (not everyone can), that covers mobile OS and file hosting + sharing (iCloud). The rest of these are simply not accessible with the same level of quality without Google. Google was a good thing. But right now, their influence is for the worse, possibly to the point that their net impact long term will be negative. Even if you don't use Google, you feel some of the effects: * Google Analytics saves and uploads your data about websites you browse. GA is from what I know one of the most common analytics software. * Google Chrome has a profound influence on web standards. Google pushes to change the web by changing Chrome, and in order for people's chrome-based website to work in other browsers, *other browsers have to match chrome's implementation*. * Google pushes their software onto users with the eventual goal of locking it down. You've seen AMP-based websites. * Google works with other major corporations to hinder their privacy measures (see the OP Twitter thread). People in this thread don't hate Google the search engine per se. They hate the company that does what I listed above.


cdb_11

> Oh, so you hate Google? Just use Microsoft or Facebook services then! lol


cdreid

oh dear lord.. you seem to think google invented the search engine? Or translation??? etc etc??? You sound like an applesmurf. Google controls your search results No Matter What Engine you get them from. And they intentionally direct humanity in certain directions. Ever notice how inaccurate your search's are? And they collect troves of information on you, use it against you, sell it.. and provide it to the government. Youre like one of the people in 1984 who cheered Big Brother of their own free will


reddit_insta_fb

`How inaccurate my searches are?` I'm pretty damn sure I've never visited Google search pages 2 and beyond, so I've got that going for me. You sound like someone with a top comment on a conspiracy community. Sell it? Give it to the government? They clearly mention what their business model is https://blog.google/technology/ads/how-google-search-ads-work/ and how users can control the ads personalisation using settings. It's a shame many people don't even see the opt out settings built-in their products.


cdb_11

The only use case for search engines right now is being a proxy, grep or a fuzzy finder for those huge services everyone already knows about, and you could as well use the search function provided by those services. Other than that it's not what it used to be, where you could find literally everything. He's right, they completely ruined it. The data they collected will be used at some point in the future to achieve political goals, it's just a matter of time. Some might even argue that it's already happening. If I remember correctly Google was either straight out ignoring those privacy settings or described it in some misleading way, and they kept tracking your GPS position on Android anyway. And back when they were stealing your banking information on gmail there was no option to turn it off. Now maybe they got kind enough to allow you to disable it, not sure.


eadgar

There's no code in this post. Isn't that against r/programming guidelines?


adnan252

AMP is about, and affects, programming. If you want pure coding discussions, go to /r/coding