By - shelltops
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Nothing is new. The old adage always used to be you can’t give people reasons not to vote for the other guy, you need to give them something to vote for.
Trump was an anomaly in recent times. Sure. But even in his own election, that sentiment only mattered to his race. Democrats wildly underperformed everywhere else. Trump only mattered in one spot in one ballot
I always felt that it was obvious in 2016 that a majority of people are just fed up with everything. Trump is a deranged geriatric but the popularity of Bernie Sanders on the left is because the Dems don’t really give a shit about real issues. They’ll toss some treats to the craziest identity activists in the left and do fuck all for the rest of us. We have a handful of great Democratic reps but just a handful. And they don’t hold much power.
Yep. Corporate dems love identity politics because it protects them from economic politics. Bernie comes out like "hey, you can have healthcare like the rest of the world does if you just vote for it," and he's literally labeled a crazy revolutionary by the media, the Dem establishment, and eventually quite a few people who would benefit from said policy.
The Dems get back into power, and what do they give us? I'm literally not even fucking sure I can name one thing that they have done that wouldn't have been done under Trump. *Slightly* better handling of covid on a federal level, but nothing that is any sort of game changer. The child tax credit as well, which is big for people w/ kids but does fuck all for people like me who haven't had kids because we understand it's a financial mess with everything else that is impossible to afford these days. Dems need to start with items that help *everyone* or at least make sure huge groups of people aren't left behind and worse off for the changes they make.
They unfortunately don't actually have power. We have two fake democrats taking up seats preventing true majority in the senate so we can't actually accomplish anything. Unfortunately it's going to have a ripple effect as people will see a majority democrat accomplish nothing and not show up at the polls in response, handing everything back to the republicans to yank us further in the wrong direction.
The only thing they can do is use executive order to undo Trumps executive orders and maybe convince the fake democrats to get on board with some minor changes that don't actually do anything.
So then what is even the point of ever voting for Democrats? They are eternally powerless according to Reddit even if they win the presidency. Why should anyone support them?
If we want FDR kind of change then we need FDR kinds of numbers of Democrats. 68 sounds like a good goal for number of Democratic Senators. That is a huge margin for error.
You need to get them to sixty senators, a house majority, and the Whitehouse to get anything done due to DINOs.
Exactly. We're squarely in reach for the trees, land in the mud phase place as a party. We need to be reaching for the stars. The goal can't be 50 seats, it has to be *every seat*. Dems need to put boots on the ground to *find* people to do some work. Hell, why not *hire* some people to do the work? Why not create a mechanism for social welfare using party infrastructure itself? Because it isn't done, doesn't mean that it can't be done. Make the entire thing a voting cooperative of registered Democrats that you voluntarily pay into and get services out of.
Think big, think small, think weird, but fuckin think. What are things we take for granted that can be done differently if we change our individual frames? What are ways Democrats can accomplish their party priorities outside of government? What if party infrastructure were used to create local mutual aid communities? Old solutions to old problems.
I think you're on to something.
A Committee for Human Potential could serve such a purpose, as a form of social association dedicated to investing in the potential of our people.
Something in between a labor union, political action committee, think tank, and social media entity. Investments in labor, creativity, spiritual/psychic fulfillment, and unity can only ever pay positive returns.
I like your idea behind a direct action network to assist members of an association. I think the newer generations are getting impatient with the glacial speed of the existing political order. I believe this can be replaced with something much more tangible.
The Mondragon Corporation in Spain is an excellent example of something similar in labor, but it doesn’t capture the full meaning.
The idea of voting more dems into congress is to get a bigger majority to pass things. Bigger majorities grant you better stats to deal with defectors and would not let sinema and manchin dictate things. Unless the system changes, you need a majority to get things done in congress. Voting 3rd party currently is not feasible strategy because 3rd party reception wildly varies by state. It would be an uphill battle to get there that would just create opportunities for the main two to seize on.
You've found the correct answer. We need more people to run on third party tickets across the board. If we don't break the corporate duopoly of our political system, nothing is ever going to change.
If you want a third party, you MUST support a voting system that's not first-past-the-post FIRST. Ranked choice voting works. So does approval voting.
No one says anything about this. It's always 'we need a third party' like that's actually possible in today's America.
Wrong, 3rd party tickets are the way to guarantee a win for republicans. America is a TWO-PARTY system, any vote for a 3rd party until that root problem is addressed is a wasted vote and indirectly a vote for the worst of the two choices, which is usually republican.
You want a viable 3rd party option? throw your weight behind one of the two major parties closest in ideology to you and change them from the inside. Jill Steining an election is just an excuse to say "I wanna vote republican but pretend i didn't".
It's Woke Liberalism: Fiscally conservative, but seeing themselves and presenting as socially progressive.
The fly in the ointment is that money and welfare are social issues, so the beard falls off as they jump from cause celebre to cause celebre. Fighting for indentured workers to use the bathroom of their choice, and for female CEOs to make as much as male CEOs only goes so far.
It's the good ole gun to the head strategy. A large enough percentage of the ignorant crowd will stay away from the issues involving the economy and corruption as long as other classes have rights that they do not while the other party tries to take them away. Use the primaries to force a generic candidate and herd the cattle so they check the right box at the polls. As soon as they begin chipping away and get too close to equality, manufacture crisis to take away those rights from one group and use the media to make them blame each other until there are extremists. From there, the cycle repeats.
Its about as full of shit as this comment is.
Bernie has nothing to do with woke identity politics
Hey, moderate dems need a boogie man too. Let them get it out of their systems so they can get to their rice pudding and thick water before naptime.
We're also super tired of being angry all the time. They can run on rage, we can't.
Both parties run on anger and hate of "the other side"
Not at all. Humans resonate with hate as a whole, but people with empathy get tired of it.
Definitely not. "Hatred" of the GOP does not animate the left the same way hatred of "the libs" animates the right.
This shit *deflates* Democratic voters.
...that's literally all this sub is every day of the year...
This sub is (believe it or not) not a good model of political activism.
I disagree. Most of my friends don’t even really care about “Republicans” and “Democrats”. We all vote based on the fact that we are queer, or not white, etc and want basic rights, or we want to see policies that help our community, etc.
I’d say that the Republican party really has the market cornered with the whole “owning the libs” thing. I mean, remember when everyone was burning their Nikes? What about the “let’s go Brandon” thing? I don’t really see stuff like that outside of the Republican party.
*"Democrats should stop using Trump in their messaging. If polling wasn’t an indicator for candidates then this election was,” Jasmine Burney-Clark, a Democratic political consultant in Florida*
The "Anybody but Trump" campaign worked great in 2020. People (Dems, independents, and even a few rogue GOPs) hated Trump. I mean Despised, Hated, Wanted to Puke at the mention of his Name hatred. Biden was propelled into office by "Anybody but Trump". I believe "George the trumpet playing Beagle" would have gotten 30% of the vote if he ran against Trump for president. Outside of 50% of the GOP who love him, people Hate Trump.
Issue in 2021 and beyond? Trump is not running. Name is not on the ballet. So the "don't let Trump back into office" vote, well, just wasn't there. Dems need to change their message. Keeping Trump out of office is a given in the short term. Pick a different rallying message.
If Trump runs in 2024 (and I hope he does not), then the "Never Trump" logos can come back out. For now, going to have to find a different message. These elections kind of proved that.
There were many "flipped" suburbs in 2020 who like Trump’s agenda just fine but found him too icky to re-elect. Treating those areas as reliable Dem constituencies now would be a mistake.
Same mistake made in 2016. "Oh, those people reliably vote Democrat, so let's not waste money there." Seriously, where the fuck did Clinton's campaign spend all their money? Sure, she got the popular vote, but she's a career politician surrounded by (presumably) the best political minds money can buy, and yet they completely spaced out on ensuring she also wins the only part of the election right now that fucking matters. She didn't just lose the electoral college, she got demolished by it, while winning the popular vote. That's nice n all, that more people voted for her, but it doesn't mean shit when your opposition is running a surgical campaign to flip a few swing states red.
Trump was the result of the failings of establishment politics. The GOP has effectively been taken over by the right-wing populists, but the DNC keeps thinking they can finger-wag the left-wing populists into submission and still win elections. They're high on corporate campaign contributions, but forget that if they lose enough, that money will dry the fuck up.
TBF polling was bad and is getting worse. There's been efforts on the right to discredit them back to at least 2012 (go look up "UnSkewed Polls"), which IMO has led to Republican leaning voters increasingly not trusting them and refusing to participate, further skewing them.
HRC thought she had it in the bag so she was campaigning to run up the score, rather than to win. It's easy to Monday morning quarterback those decisions now that you know what happened, but at the time, I don't think they knew they were working with bad data.
She finished within the margins of error. People just don’t understand polls.
And the trend for the weeks leading into Election Day was in Trumps favor. Every pollster was showing a tightening race across the rust belt.
Lies, damn lies, and statistics. There's a lot of people out there that I believe just don't trust pollers about anything. I generally don't, because I know that it's easy to manipulate a poll's results based on how questions are worded and so on.
Then there's the issue that there're a lot of assumptions made based on polls that end up not really reflecting the views of the populace all that well since they try to force a binary choice/viewpoint on people who hold very very diverse opinions.
Polls were actually pretty damn accurate. Going into Election Day polls showed a tight race in Pa, Mi, and Wi. The gap had closed from high single digits in Clinton’s favor to a 2 or 3 point lead (within Margin of error) and trending towards trump. It was going to be a nail biter, according to near election polls.
“Anybody but Trump” actually didn’t work that great either. House seats were lost and they barely took control of the Senate when many expected a 52-54 seat control with a good election outcome.
2018 was a lot of messaging such as Medicare for all along with those running saying that you can’t just run on being anti Trump. In fact every House seat lost in 2020 by Democrats were people who didn’t endorse Medicare for all. Every house member that did, won re-election.
Republicans can’t run on anti Biden either, but their policies are bullshit for the working class so they make shit up like critical race theory or increasing crime and border caravan and blast it nonstop on their propaganda networks.
Also don’t forget the ISIS is about to attack Virginia story last week.
Agreed. If you watch on Netflix "Breaking Down The House", it follows how AOC beat Crowder and won the election. Crowder's whole campaign was about "Trump this, Trump that." She pointed out how bad that strategy is. That you need an actual position, tangible benefits to voting for them, and can't spend your whole time talking about Trump.
Shit this lesson should have been learned after Hillary lost! A lot of people don’t give a crap about what the Republicans are doing, they want to know what YOU are going to do for THEM. They are not interested in all the tit for tat!
I think it’s called Knock down the house, or at least that’s the only one that looks like what you’re mentioning
People are supposed to put their best foot forward, and if the best Dems have is "Trump bad, he with Trump", then that is a big red flag.
>“Anybody but Trump” actually didn’t work that great either. House seats were lost and they barely took control of the Senate
How many of the house and senate seats did Trump run for? None. Trump lost his race, but the rest of the ticket did better. "'Anybody but Trump" works against Trump, but not the rest of the GOP candidates. If you are fighting any other GOP, may want to remember their name is not Trump, and find another slogan.
The republicans don't need to run on anti-biden when they can just make shit up
if the GOP keeps obstructing, lying, cheating, and using terrorism, then we're no longer playing a fair game anyways and we need to start doing something else other than trying to reach out as "moderates".
Get that "fair game" stuff out of your head. The two party political system ensures winner takes all, and the democrats aren't even trying. They have failed consistently to provide any kind of relief to the people who vote for them.
They keep promising to throw the American people a bone, but at the last minute will then throw it to the billionaire class and laugh in our faces when we call foul.
In Dems versus Republicans "moderates" are basically just right wingers who know not to say the quiet parts out loud.
The Dems are missing out on what is probably at least 30% of voters which is people further to the Left than Bernie Sanders. No one wants to reach out to us, despite the fact that Democrats could start solidly winning everything if the just appealed to Young Socialist and then actually followed through on the fucking policy issues.
Instead Elite Dems with no connection to the working class in this Country decide that "No, the best path forward for the Democratic party is to become the moderate wing of the reincarnated Nazi Party while the Republicans get to be the Full On reincarnation of Nazi Party".
You think 30% percent of US voting population is Left of a socialist? You might be living in a Bubble. Progressives only make up 30% of the Democratic Party. The other group is the socially conservative/fiscally liberal group that is the true core of the Democratic Party.
> The Dems are missing out on what is probably at least 30% of voters which is people further to the Left than Bernie Sanders.
“At least 30% of the country is left of Bernie Sanders”
Tell me you’ve never traveled without telling me you’ve never traveled. 🤣
Except that won't happen. The 30% you claim are actually 5-10% and those are the types that think Stalin didn't go far enough in his purging of those that didn't support authoritarian socialism
> The Dems are missing out on what is probably at least 30% of voters which is people further to the Left than Bernie Sanders. No one wants to reach out to us, despite the fact that Democrats could start solidly winning everything if the just appealed to Young Socialist and then actually followed through on the fucking policy issues.
Exactly. That's why Bernie was able to crush Biden and Hillary in the primaries! /s
Look, the voters chose to have Biden as the Dem candidate. If 30% of voters wanted someone else, *they should have voted*.
There is simply no reality in which 30% of the American electorate is to the left of Bernie Sanders and sitting out the vote for that reason. I wish we lived in that reality, but we absolutely don't at all.
[The most recent relatively comprehensive attempt](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/02/truth-about-non-voters/607051/) to capture the views of non-voters concluded that if every American voted, it would add a near-equivalent amount of votes to the Democratic and Republican candidates.
Roughly half of non-voters simply do not care about politics and do not have opinions that consistently align with any political ideology. The other half are relatively evenly split between progressives, moderates, and conservatives. There is not a hidden army of socialists waiting to be activated, or, at the very least, not one that is any bigger than the hidden armies of moderates and right-wingers that are also out there.
Everyone knows that Bernie was Rat fucked by the DNC in 2020. Why is it that every Joe Biden like candidate folded after Bernie won the Iowa and NH primaries while Elizabeth Warren Stayed in to siphon votes off Sanders?
Sanders was fucked by the Republican party that exists within the Democratic party.
From literally the beginning of the 2020 primary the "moderate" group of candidates got more votes than the "progressive" group, there were just more moderates at the beginning splitting the vote. The Democratic party didn't ratfuck Bernie, he only had the strength to win in a situation in which the vote was extremely fragmented.
I'm literally a political pollster professionally and I can tell you that as much as I wish you were right that 30% of the American electorate is further to the left of Bernie Sanders, that's not even remotely close to the truth.
> No one wants to reach out to us, despite the fact that Democrats could start solidly winning everything if the just appealed to Young Socialist and then actually followed through on the fucking policy issues.
>Instead Elite Dems with no connection to the working class in this Country
Okay so a little bit to unpack here, and I just have two questions.
Who is the "working class" of this country, and how do you define them?
Also and more importantly.
Why do you assume that they are all socialist?
lol literally Trump is why Biden won the Dem primary. The largest factor for voting for him was "can beat Trump" - nothing about his policy... just "not Trump and we think he can win."
And at the time, the choices were "a candidate that ticks all the right boxes" or "a candidate that can beat trump".
In that situation, it was more important to remove Trump than it was to stick to ideology and "who most passes the purity test/wishlist"
> Dems need to change their message.
This NEEDS to happen or the 2024 elections are going to be a runaway loss for the dems lmao. Just consider, so many predictions were predicting a Biden landslide in the 2020 elections. Despite the fact that Trump massively fucked up with COVID and how he dealt with it, he still got so many votes and at times even some of us were scared he was gonna win again. If COVID had not happened, Trump could've easily won another term and got away with so much of his shit, and that's a scary thought.
I am tired of voting against things, I want to vote FOR things.
Well then you should have been a billionaire. You can just write a law yourself, pass it off to ALEC or something similar and get it passed verbatim.
Well, there isn't a choice. I feel ya. Best to vote for downballot progressives and encourage others to do the same.
Preaching to the choir there. Am a progressive but boiled down, when you have only 2 choices but they are 90% the same, is it really a choice? That said, live in Florida so near 0 chance of a progressive on ballot. Best we get is a former R, now a D running for positions.
Democracy, accurate COVID info from the White House, a semi-competent pandemic response, sane judges, getting out of Afghanistan etc. Those are all things that the Democrats provided.
And practically all of that are fixes to Republican screw ups. Have anything new and bold that directly and dramatically helped the improvement of most American lives? Call me crazy for wanting something more than 2 steps back, one step forward.
Don't worry, I'm sure they learned their lesson and will try to be even more centrist and milquetoast.
Oh boy, here we go reaching across the aisle again!
you're right, they should stop doing the centrist thing that earned Biden more votes than any candidate in history, and start doing the the far-left progressive thing that pretty much never works
Biden won because Trump badly mishandled covid. Nothing else.
Dems literally need to talk like Republicans minus the dog whistle stuff and act like progressives
I feel like people on this subreddit don't understand the 2020 election at all. Trump lost the election in 3 states by a combined 42,000 votes. If COVID didn't happen (Trump handled it poorly but to act like we could've been New Zealand under any other administration is madness), Trump would've won reelection. Hell with a 42,000 vote margin if one small thing in 2020 had gone in Trump's favor he would have won. Which I think should be considered a disaster for Democrats considering Trump had one of the lowest average approval ratings in history. Hell Trump GAINED over 10,000,000 votes in 2020 than in 2016. That should be enough to make the Democrats take a long hard look at their party, they won't of course even after the 2021 elections but they should.
I don't know how any messaging could overcome being utterly incapable of passing a single thing you promised and which people desperately need and want passed.
If that beagle was the Dem nominee, I would have voted for it and I'm a cat person.
Actually it did not work that well at all. Consider that despite having the blood of hundreds of thousands of Americans on his hands, a crashing economy, 10,000 lies, numerous gaffes, Trump actually performed surprisingly strong in 2020.
Compared that to 2016, anything would make 2020 "look strong". Everything about that election was a mess that millions of voters broke for third parties.
Trump won with LESS votes the first time around than an embattled Obama did in 2012. By THREE MILLION. Trump won with LESS of a share of the popular vote than Romney even had when he lost.
What, did the US population not further grow with the inevitable uptick of new voters getting registered between 2012 and 2016?
Nope. 2016 was a crappy election across the board where the two top contest winners were far hated than love by their own admission. 2020 was an incumbent election where most people were SUPER enthusiastic to get rid of the incumbent
Since they got rid of one shit candidate in '16, so the other shit candidate in '16 needs to go too.
Now they're both gone and we're back to wondering why shit that should have been fixed before 2016 still isn't fixed.
I can’t wait for next October. The same tired tag line “People have to get out to vote as THIS is the most important election in history.” So I vote and democrats do literally nothing. I hear all this wining about the filibuster but you need bills from the house to be filibusted in the Senate.
What we really need is more AOC type hail maries.
Like seriously. She won by getting enough constituents in her Brooklyn district to primary the corporate Dem that held the seat.
That's what needs to happen around the country when primaries begin next year and especially for 2024. If you're angry, good; get more involved in your local elections. It's literally what the MAGAa have been doing already. Take that fight to them directly.
Because this third-way milquetoast neoliberal bullshit straight outta the 1990s isn't the fucking way and it's time for massive changeover to reflect a America that has uniquely 2010s-American problems that never were addressed.
At least we'll know for a fact if an America that has elections anymore is what most voters still want if it'll finally be an unabashed progressive vs a straight-up fascist for once. As opposed to that straight-up fascist vs a milky neoliberal where the fascist still wins. Since the neolib doesn't inspire anyone who's limited aspirations only go so far as to say "at least I'm not this guy".
Sure, this sounds great in theory, but you're assuming that everywhere that happens to be blue happens to be *progressive*. That's really not the case when it comes down to it.
There are a *lot* of areas that are Democrat, but that aren't progressive. Don't forget that Democrats are basically the catch-all party for everyone that doesn't want to be part of the flat-out evil GOP.
> Issue in 2021 and beyond? Trump is not running. Name is not on the ballet. So the "don't let Trump back into office" vote, well, just wasn't there.
I mean honestly if the Republican party moves away from Trumpism that is basically a good thing
If that happened I wouldn't be so stressed out every time Republicans took control of the government.
Maybe if the Dems actually did something, instead of allowing two of their own to be the monkey wrench in the system, then people who care about Policy would be willing to continually support the Democratic party.
But fucking Liberals care more about not being Trump and making sure everybody follows the rules, despite the fact that Republicans don't follow rules.
The system is broken and the Right is abusing it's brokeness while the Liberals keep the actual Left locked up and politically unviable. Liberals are basically Republican party Lite.
There marketing of the $1.9 trillion dollar stimulus could be much better. $1,400 to every man, woman and child earning less than $75,000($150,000 for married couples). Child tax credit changed from $2,000 to $3,000-$3600 and fully refundable, 35 million families are now getting monthly checks, daycare credit went from $600 non refundable per child to $4,000 fully refundable per child, Earned income credit for those without kids was greatly expanded. Huge subsidies for the health insurance exchanges, yet you barely hear a peep about any of it.
heh. "allowing". I keep hearing this and it gets old. The administration and other dems can try to pressure and bully and whatever else those two all they want, but at the end of the day, they can't *force* them to vote for anything.
And, to be perfectly honest, I would have serious issues if we *did* have a government where elected officials could be forced to vote a certain way, simply because that means any strong enough political identity or bloc could overrule the views and needs of the people whom those officials are elected to represent.
Not saying that Manchin or Sinema are doing wonderfully at representing their states and constituents or anything, either. Just that, like it or not, no one should be allowed to force anyone to do anything they don't want to do.
>Outside of 50% of the GOP who love him, people Hate Trump.
That's wishful thinking, Trump's vote share increased in 2020. His support among the GOP electorate was 90%+, it's only the GOP/corporate media political establishment that hated him.
This is just another example of the left systematically underestimating their political opponents, just like 2016. Same reason polling has become so unreliable in recent years.
“The old tricks aren’t working so we need new tricks to fool people.” Is not a good point of view, maybe ask what was appealing about the people they voted for instead.
Democrat politicians: RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE \#LGBTQ+ \#BLM
Democrat voters: no, like, for real, do work and stuff
You forgot all their “we broke the glass ceiling again!! first female Hispanic elected to the state senate” nonsense. People don’t care anymore. Will you get shit done to improve our lives?
It helps if you stop thinking about dems as idiots and realize that they're a billion dollar advertising and research organization.
Then the question is "Dems have so many experts, is it possible that they're all terrible at their jobs, and if no, why do they lose so often?"
Then you have an answer as to why there's always a Dem ready in the wings to destroy all legislation and then retire.
> Then the question is "Dems have so many experts, is it possible that they're all terrible at their jobs, and if no, why do they lose so often?"
All of them? No. The old ones who have power through seniority and connections to other old people, and who grew up and got power in a time where this sort of centrist/bipartisan thing kinda sorta worked? Yeah. And no matter how many times they fuck up, it won't matter, because they've feathered their nests quite cozily.
Yes a lot of the old ones with old ideas have to go but Sinema is not old. Money corrupts all ages.
centrism in olden days was the new-deal consensus
Just give the working class what we want and we will vote for you.
working class: please help us
dictatorship of the bourgeoisie moment
According to the VA elections the "working class" wants lower taxes and to ban CRT from public schools. Should we do that? Why do people claim they know what went wrong with elections without looking at polling data?
The working middle class is culturally conservative but they want a break economically– cutting taxes are an easy break. They’ll vote for more left economics if it helps them generally without touching their bank accounts or their cultural values; they want National Socialism, in so many words.
They absolutely don't realize this
This. They don’t have a clue.
Yes they do. They know exactly what they’re doing.
Exactly what I have been thinking.
Also, the GOP can funnel disparate groups, even oppositional groups, and still come out victors. Then can be pro- and anti- war, and I think they can even start to campaign to the left of democrats, seeing that establishment dems have ceded ground on populist issues.
Case in point, the VA race, where Youngkin came out quasi-pro-public education, in a twisted way.
And as you say, it's not like long time GOP voters are going to switch parties, even if their representatives are cozying up to the Q-anon set.
Down is up and up is down, sort of like the "hands off my medicare!" as an attack against the expansion of the program.
>Expectations from their voters.
>They don't have any and don't pay any cost for not following through
Republican voters believe what Republican politicians say, and never look at what they do. Republican branded themselves "fiscally responsible" and the democrats as "tax and spend". They would believe those labels if mitch came into their house, emptied thier wallets into Elon Musk's hands, and walked out.
Fucking THANK YOU for saying this. I’m already seeing the standard “See both sides don’t care!” posts coming up more than usual. Almost like they were created to provide voter apathy. It’s already bad enough with gerrymandering, and it was hard fought to ‘barely’ take the senate.
But provide enough reddit posts to cause apathy, and bam. GOP across the board in the next election.
Are Democrats better than Republicans? Yes. Does that make them good? No. Does that stop me from voting for them? Also no. Just because progressives criticize Democrats for being ineffective does not mean that the attitude is "Fuck it, let the GOP win." I have never heard a progressive say "both sides are the same." Acting like it's not acceptable to be frustrated with a choice between making things worse and not doing enough to avoid catastrophe is pretending that a bucket will fix the hole in your rowboat.
“We’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas”
IMHO Manchin and Sinema needs to shit or get off the pot because this whole having issues with bills but not being specific with what is getting real fucking old. People need to see sleeves rolled and progress being made.
They are getting paid to delay and obstruct.
They're wasting time. That's why they're constantly changing their minds and being vague.
Dems are so focused on identity politics they’ve lost their entire base of blue collar middle class voters. A middle class family man in Michigan doesn’t give a shit about identity politics that attempt to make him feel bad for being who is. Instead he wants economic and social relief.
They continue to use this strategy, they’re no better than the Republicans invoking Obama and Hillary to rile up the base. Get back to the issues and don’t give Trump anymore attention.
I don't understand why Democrats don't go on TV every single day and specifically Fox News and rail against these made-up culture wars and bullshit issues that Republicans make up in the same way that Republicans do to garner hate against the Democrats. Dems always talk about being the better person, which is good, but that doesn't mean better is synonymous with *weaker* or *timid*. Republicans might spew lies 24/7 but they are certainly more passionate about it. Dems could go on TV and be just as passionate without being deceitful. The issue is that instead Dems go on TV, talk very bureaucratically, and come off as the out-of-touch government elites that Republicans claim they are. The only subset of the Democratic party that seems to understand this are the Progressives. Like moderates think that Progressives are "too extreme" to win elections, but clearly it's working for far-right wackos and has been for a while.
Once again, if Donald Trump was the problem the world would be a much better place now because he is no longer an issue.
The actual problem is the fascism that Donald Trump is still the poster boy for. And the fact that fascism now is absolutely the only thing the Republican party stands for. That is why all but 2 of them are openly supporting and defending the people who tried to violently overthrow the government.
Bingo. Getting rid of Trump was step 1, not the last step. People need to get this through their heads. Pandora is diminished, but the box is still spewing. Also people need to fucking vote in every election from school boards to presidents.
We can’t just vote out way out it. Fascism is born out of a failed capitalism state. See Germany.
Unless we improve the conditions of what we see in America, there is going to be a fascist threat.
I hear what you’re saying. My comment was merely to point out that low voter turnout is one of the dumbest ongoing problems we have that contributes to the trend towards fascism. The number of 18-29 year olds that don’t vote is fucking ridiculous, for example.
It is the absolute height of liberal idiocy to believe you can vote your way out of fascism
America's history of squashing left leaning movements can't be ignored when it comes to a lack of organizing. As soon as the left gets a leader capable of organizing the kind of things you are suggesting (and are desperately needed) the alphabet organizations start coming after them: Martin Luther King, Fred Hampton, Malcolm X, Eugene Debs. The harshest sentence given out related to the January 6 insurrection was given to Daniel Baker for having the audacity to suggest leftists arm themselves to combat the right wing insurrectionists planning on attacking state capitols after their failed coup.
Voting certainly isn't enough, but I don't know if we'll ever be able to gather momentum and organize when the apparatus of the state comes after left leaning movements in their infancy while allowing right wing extremists to flourish.
I want to give you an award but I don’t have any free ones left
Who said we could vote our way out? I said higher voter turnout needs to be part of the solution. If only the fascists are energized to vote (while we still *have* voting) then you get a gov full of fascists.
Edit: should add that if we are going to “improve what we see around us” to avoid being a “failed capitalist state” to paraphrase the other person on this thread…how do we do this *without* getting more likeminded people both run for office and to fucking show up and vote?
I get that it’s not enough by itself, but it’s also important.
>Who said we could vote our way out?
It's the only thing you mentioned
Ok, so I’ll add we need better candidates, campaign finance reform, expanded Supreme Court, to abolish the Electoral College, limit lobbying, improved funding for public transit, green technology, education, job training and so on.
Seems to me all of those only come if we vote more and get more AND better non-fascists in government. I’ve never been team “any blue will do” because of exactly what’s going on right now with Manchin and Sinema. Like “any blue” is better overall than any Republican, but it’s not enough.
Edit: I’ll also ask what you suggest beyond voting. Again, I’m not saying voting alone is enough, I’m genuinely asking what are your suggestions to move forward? We’re on the same side here.
I wonder why they don't vote? *Glances around at complete lack of progress*
We've voted our way out of it and still nothing is getting done.
Not really. We voted Trump out, but lost seats in the House while barely taking the Senate.
My point is not that voting alone will fix anything, but that we need to continue increasing turnout *in addition to* everything else we try to do.
The next step is stopping Socialism. We did a great job getting rid of Trump, but a lot of people who voted against Trump in 2020 absolutely do not want Socialism, and Democrats in non-leftist districts are going to pay a heavy price by the electorate in the next few election cycles.
the world IS a better place without him. But its not a miracle cure.
The GOP has been pushing some form of fascism since Goldwater's presidential campaign of winking and nodding at segregationists and threatening to nuke Vietnam, and that was over 50 years ago. They are a completely irredeemable organization that will bring our country to ruin and lead to the brutalization and deaths of individuals in marginalized communities, and they have been this way for a long, long time.
And yet we keep ending up with leaders in the Democratic party who think being bipartisan and working with the fascists is good politics and good for the country, when it is the exact opposite. Nothing gets better until we get rid of those Democratic leaders.
Trump winning was a symptom of democrats being fucking useless for decades.
They chose corporations over the working class and these are the consequences.
Rising fascism in the US isn't the problem, it's a symptom. Fascism is capitalism in decay. Capitalism is failing and the working class is being hung out to dry. We'll never fix that when the opposition to fascism is a bunch of ineffectual losers who promise the bare minimum and fail to deliver.
Always remember the Democratic gameplan is to campaign on as many things that won’t actually require wealthy donor permission to do
Its when they got to open the pocketbook that they suddenly turn into republicans
The dems who matter, who have ideas, make their case pretty well (public option for healthcare, investment in education, infrastructure, immigration reform) but when the dems actually get into office they deliver, at best, watered down versions of their ideas. All the time blaming political reality for not being able to deliver.
Mitch McConnell doesn't give a shit about political reality, and neither does Trump. The dems should consider how they've blown the game on the supreme court, abortion rights, and a host of other issues while running candidates that the establishment considers 'next in line'.
As for Biden, I suspect he beat Trump because just enough people were scared to death of what Trump would do in a second term knowing he couldn't be elected for a third.
I want them both to go away.
Where is the next Lincoln for Christ's sake?
The problem is that you're getting these moderat Democrats running and when they lose they blame the progressive Democratss.
It’s almost like we actually want Democrats to do something now that they have the House, Senate, and Presidency.....unfathomable as that may sound /s
'Vote harder next time, a loss is your fault' is what they tell us around here. Brilliant messaging.
I’m going to vote so fucking hard next time. Like a minimum of 50% harder. Stocking up on viagra now
Hard to do something with only 1-2 dissenters at the minimum that prefers to ignore the wishes of those that don't dissent. It isn't the Democratic Party as a whole, but a few dissenters that don't realize that they're going to be screwed in a much longer term at the price of being benefited short-term.
And they are trying. I don't like how the article and the people in this thread are acting like the Democrats are still talking about Trump and not doing anything. They're in the middle of a major infrastructure bill and working towards paid leave and other benefits for American workers, and Democrats really don't bring up Trump unless someone else did first.
No. Dems think It’s still the 90’s and fail to realize we are AT the brink. Everyone acts like it’s over and not still happening. We are squaring up against authoritarianism with a big limp dick as our only weapon and if things do not change significantly, it is over.
It’s already over. Get your exit strategy ready if you’re outed as anything left of Joe manchin lol
Dems need to realize what Repugnicans have long known. People vote with their emotions and later justify it with their brains. The GOP triggers fear. The Dems need to trigger hope.
A little late to the party, but ok.
BS -the problem is Democrats need to rage MORE, not less.
Our democracy is under assault - not to mention the attackers are aligned with our fucking ENEMY.
Its time to stop treating Trump like a harmless lunatic, he and the GOP are existential threats. If one side is attacking and the other is not it is not a war, it is a ROUT.
They need to start passing legislation as promised. By any means necessary, just like Mitch would. If they fail to do this, then they fail everyone.
I never want to hear another fucking word about Donald Trump ever again. I want you to FIX SHIT.
At this point I’m convinced them Dems do this on purpose. I refuse to believe that they can make the same mistake election after election, decade after decade, and never learn from it. I’m convinced it’s all part of the charade at this point.
They’re trying to pass legislation and are blocked because of legalized bribery and two selfish greedy senators on their side, and 50 neo-fascists on the other
Can we PLEASE just burn this motherfucker to the ground finally? No? Just me?
I'm not sure why folks thought the NJ race wasn't going to be close. The resignation of Cuomo in NY next door is easy pickings for the GOP to energize their base with "We don't want to be the next New York!" stuff.
I'm optimistic for the Democrats though. Their struggles will highlight the things they need to work on to get better, to help us as a nation move to the changes we do need to be good at things like education, healthcare, equal rights, etc. It's not the party that ignores its own failures as much as the GOP and doesn't bank on scamming rural folks for votes. The Democrats have to work on messaging (The phrase "defund the police" was a fail) and remind folks that falling behind as a nation because a vocal minority wants illegal guns everywhere and oppression of women isn't the way to go.
I'll just say it, whoever came up with the term "Defund the Police" is a gigantic moron and set us back decades.
Not the idea itself, just calling it by the term "Defund The Police"
Yeah absolute dumb ass move to call your movement “defund the police.” “Reform the police” or “Train the police” would’ve been so much better
This article is news reporting. True journalism would have written about this before the losses.
the article would have never been published because to the media, a progressive candidate is worse than a conservative candidate. They want their moderates, and if they can't get them, they'll want a controversial right-wing candidate they can blame things on.
Finding that article on /r/politics would have meant scrolling past 8 ones about how McAuliffe was a shoe in. Confirmation bias is a hell of a drug.
Why do dems suck so horribly at messaging?
It's not like there's no information out there, that can be learned and applied to do better.
From top politicians to people on the internet, the messaging is awful. People's ego's instantly flare up when you point it out (ie. Defund the Police) and all we do is lose ground.
Sad sign of the times.
>Why do dems suck so horribly at messaging?
Yes the Dems are not great at it but what's usually left unsaid is that the GOP aren't great either. The problem is Americans are already inclined to believe the lies of the GOP because it's what they also believe. So the odds are already stacked against the Dems from the jump and they're not very good at it.
That is no excuse to do a shitty job.
If we want to win, we need to be strong competitors. And if we're not strong competitors, we need to become strong competitors.
For every ten people who say it can't be done, there will be one that talks right past it and just does it. I'm much more interested in hearing from that person.
The only result anyone should be concerned with is if it's working.
GOP messaging hits the mark much more often than Dem. Doesn't matter if it's all bullshit; they're better at it. Period.
Edit: missing word
The left has been telling them that for ages. Yeah Trump bad. Everyone not in the Qult knows Trump bad. It goes without saying. Give us some tangible policy and progress. Stand for something not against someone.
I am getting sick of seeing pundits saying the reason that Democrats are losing is because of "woke politics". The real reason is that our base is not fired up. Why would we be? We know that anything that is going to fire up the base will be negotiated down to something that only faintly resembles the original idea so why waste our time? This ratchet effect caused by "centrist democrats" is what is cost the Democratic party wins in blue states not "woke politics" gtfoh
Dude I’m telling you the woke shit absolutely makes a ton of would be Democrat voters vote red. That’s why the Midwest has shifted red the last decade. This is Reddit so most of are “woke,” but in greater America it absolutely is a turn off. “Woke” politics is identity politics and identity politics is fucking stupid. All the cancelling people for shit they said 20 years ago and screaming defund the police has absolutely scared away blue collar democrat voters
I’m solidly blue and I work in campaigns and issues. I’m not a keyboard warrior. The woke bullshit is absolutely permeating the party and it’s poisoning everything. Pronouns aren’t getting anyone a home, or healthcare, or student debt relief. And you know who else isn’t? Every fucking Democrat.
Policy has been a quagmire for a long fucking time. The center of the party that wants to get rid of the "wokeness" has gotten nothing but lipservice by representatives and leadership who would rather cater corporate overlords, so the center tunes out. Far left wokeness is the only thing that is pushing the party to do shit atm, because the far left has nowhere else to go.
America is a moderate conservative majority. Woke politics are definitely an issue.
If dems dropped the gender/race politics and focused on economy they would win every election
I don’t agree with stopping it entirely. There’s a good chunk of the Dem base that cares about those issues. But they absolutely need to message it better.
I should have phrased it better, I do not mean stop it entirely. But from the outside looking in it seems to be the parties main if not only focus. They can still push for gender and race equality while focusing on issues affecting every other American in the country
I agree! Culture wars are not winning issues for the left
Narrarator - The Dems went on to run a concerted 'At Least We're Not Trump' campaign at every level of government, up to and including the local dog-catcher, for the next 10 years.
The fact that dems arent just crushing Republicans while they go absolutely off the rails is embarrassing. It should be a complete layup, the opposition is half insane, but they keep missing
As he and his influence fades over time they had better wise up. I don’t think they will though. Media people like Colbert simply can’t quit. He wouldn’t even have a show if he hadn’t started whacking trump so how can he possibly stop?
Running against an unpopular president is a strategy that works.
Running against a loud idiot who doesn't hold any office and has no power is not a strategy that works.
in any halfway decent country, yeah, it would be enough. But this is a stupid, stupid country.
Political environments shift all the time. No one crystal balling the 2002 midterm in August of 2001 could have known about 9/11. Likewise no one knew how the great recession would unfold, folks didn't predict the Tea Party, didn't predict Trump, no one knew about Covid, etc, etc, etc. We have no idea what the political environment will be next year or in 2024.
Democrats need to ignore the noise and focus on the work they are doing.
Republicans are gaining traction because they're toxic racists who play the abortion card every chance they get. Their voting base loves that. They lose ground when it becomes obvious that snatching up cash is their main priority, but even when the Democrats win, it's only for a little while. The toxic racism and anti abortion rhetoric always lures the Republican base right back.
Democrats. Stop trying to beat the Republicans at their own game. You can't. Just run on the issues that matter to you without all the drama. Just aim to appeal to everyone and stay on a drama free message.
Or do what you always do and hand everything straight back to the Republicans for another round of fleecing.
The issue is democrats insist on Progressive being the answers when MOST people are center. People care about what effects their everyday lives NOW. Things like medicare for all that will take a couple of years to get started and then cancelled before taking effect is not what people actually care about. People care about Getting back and forth to work everyday . People care about losing their job because of the chip shortage. People care about their kids not dying of covid. People care about actually being able to get food on the table (supermarkets by me have empty shelves) . People care about their kids having to eat things with spoons and their fingers because schools cant get utensils because of the shortage.
People will vote back and forth between the two parties to get what they need NOW. When the democrats realize this then they will always win elections.
I will get downvoted to hell but results of this election prove it . Democrats are out of touch with what the actual people want. People don't want extremes (in either party).
Progressives are part of the answer. They're the only one that actually want to address it in a quicker manner and they're not extreme given that they represent the center-left of the world. A good percentage of moderates don't want to do that. That being said, if you're arguing we should try to elect the most electable person out there as a strategy, and ones that will actually try to do so, moderate/progressive, it doesn't matter, that strategy should be used.
>The issue is democrats insist on Progressive being the answers when MOST people are center.
The Democrats are center-right except for half a dozen progressives. And all the stuff you just talked about? Progressives want to fix those things. The centrists do not.
You’ll get downvoted because M4all is actually popular and my supermarket has plenty of food and so does yours.
Lol! Toxic racists who elected the first black female candidate to statewide office.
The cognitive dissonance is strong with this one.
+ Latino AG
Oh yes, thank you.
Who cares about facts, right?
There is a popular political commentator who has a fairly well-known catchphrase having something to do with facts and feelings.
I just find it hilarious that my original reply is getting down voted. Are people upset that a black person got elected to statewide office? Or are they just upset that I am right?
You're being downvoted because you're presuming the completely fallacious reasoning that electing a black female candidate to statewide office somehow proves that Republicans aren't racist. Which is nonsense. The notion of supporting an individual token minority as "one of the good ones" has been central to every era of bigotry.
Lol! So she’s just not the right kind of black person.
I see who the racist is here.
Why are the racist republicans capturing more of the minority vote year after year?
Bet you think Margret Thatcher was a feminist too.
I’ll need to see proof to believe that they “realize” this new reality.
Honestly, and this is sad, the Dem’s best chance at success in 2022 is if the Republican Party in enough states try to distance themselves from Drump that he gets pissed off and orders his base to stay home on Election Day.
the democrats message fails to compel ..... which causes too many to not vote at all
the conservative message has the morons in a panic ... they're trying to kill the white male Christian, they're trying to kill the white male, they're trying to kill the white....the great replacement is in full swing.....you can just tell with almost every commercial on TV having a bi-racial couple ... it would be hilarious if it weren't so dangerous
Democrats didn't realize anything. They went right back to blaming progressives
No. We lost because the GOP played CRT as a threat to suburban moms even though CRT isn't even taught in K-12. We won the Presidency because Trump was so awful.
Also a lot of anti-Trump Biden voters switched to Youngkin because they saw Youngkin as less of a threat.
I hope they're right, but I doubt it.
Trump who? Ignoring him in the press and Dem fund raisers will drive him batshit. Never mention his name again. But always keep your enemy close in mind
Trump is like a Sith Lord from Star Wars, if you oppose him he tricks you into hating him and lures you to the dark side. It’s better to stick to actual policies and issues, not get dragged down to his level ( like Hillary Clinton).
Why? That’s all GOP does. They rage against progressives and play the obstructionists. It works for them.
Yup. Part of the whole reason people voted for Biden and some other Dems is they were so sick of Trump, so it probably wasn’t very bright for Dems to then turn around and talk about trump so much, that’s exactly what so many people were sick of in the first place!
And now that no one really cares as much about the Coronavirus, and it can't really be used as a political weapon, democrats in 2022 are in for rough ride.