Weird situation on High Stakes Poker - betting but not putting money in
By - itsarace1
He has money coming but doesn’t have the chips on the table yet
I haven't watched this clip, but he can't add money in the middle of the hand... was the money on the way before the hand started? Wouldn't Jamie know that?
Likely waiting on a runner
Yes, the people at the table would have been told Phil is playing behind. Jamie was being weird here. I am guessing it was just him being a cash game noob. not knowing what playing behind meant. Or maybe he was really trying to speech play Phil, who knows.
Playing with “money behind” is when you’ve indicated that you’re buying more chips before the hand is dealt, but those chips haven’t arrived. In a game like that, a verbal declaration before the hand that “I’m $50k behind” would make that money in play even if the player hadn’t actually gotten the money out of their bag. In most casinos you’d at least need to have shown you have it with you or given it to a chip runner, but I’ve played large home games where guys are allowed to play on credit, and in those situations the mere declaration (before cards are dealt) that you have money behind is sufficient to put it in play.
At the card room i used to play in, you'd have to put your cash on the table, the dealer would count it out in front of the camera and call a chip runner before dealing the hand, and would track how much money you owed if you continued to bet.
Obviously not the same when dealing with tens of thousands of dollars in a nosebleed stakes environment.
I imagine the dealer would have to verbally announce and acknowledge "$50k behind in seat 4."
Most players wouldn't care but Jamie Gold is a bitch
I just play low stakes but yeah, I've had a few different times people were playing with money behind and I took the pot, didn't bitch about it.
And I've had to play with money behind a couple of times here and there.
I've had a similar incident happen playing open face Chinese at the Rio a few years back. Some players would sit down in the game and claim open, signaling that they're playing with an unlimited bankroll at the table. I hit a [sick](https://imgur.com/wHUS8kD) hand and had to wait for two guys to pull out money from their backpacks.
That’s one of the sickest Chinese hands I’ve seen.
Helmuth never gave money to a chip runner or anything like that. He just announced he had money behind and never made an effort to put it up. Jamie is wanting the money to be put into the pot because, if Jamie had won this pot with the mythical 150k, hes got to potentially chase Phil around until he gets it. He's absolutely right, one guy called him a bitch or something for being like this, but how would you feel if you called a man's 150k bet, won, and the guy says oh I'll pay you later?
1. Hellmuth is an extremely high profile player whose reputation is worth orders of magnitude more than 150k
2. They're playing on TV
3. It's a "loan" that would have been paid back immediately since hellmuth already gave the runner money. Stiffing him and getting a lifetime ban from likely all Vegas properties is theoretically possible I guess? But obv won't happen
4. Most importantly, Jamie wasn't even calling anyway
Jamie was salty he was gonna lose the pot and was venting his frustration with that request. He was being a dick.
No, I remember this episode, many of the players were playing on credit and Texas Dolly had a problem with it too.
A few possibilities: Doyle is an old school gambler who respects certain unwritten rules, or he was trying to take the side of the fish to make him feel better. It's probably a combination of both. Doyle is technically not wrong fwiw, but it still doesn't make Jamie's request pretty silly given he was gonna fold anyway.
Nah bro, Money on the wood make the game go good, money outta sight cause fights.
Or...Jamie could just fold and move to the next hand? My fourth point is far and away my main one. Also Hellmuth was playing with casino credit I think which Doyle may have been confusing with player credit. If it's casino credit then Jamie would get the chips immediately and the casino would have to collect on Hellmuth's loss.
No, Doyle said that he would agree to let him "play behind" as long as everyone took equal responsibility for this invisible money. Meaning if jamie snaps off this invisible 150, the other players have to put up for it and collect from Phil later.
I remember the situation you are talking about. Doyle was referring to Jamie or Matusow (I can't remember which one was attempting to play behind without immediately getting or sending someone to get the cash) playing behind on invisible money that wasn't at the table. The feeling I got was that Doyle didn't 100% trust that the money would appear immediately if lost and wanted everyone at the table to take equal risk to cover the money being played behind so that if the $100k, or whatever the amount was, was lost that the winner would only have to chase down a fraction from the original player. Also at this time Hellmuth wasn't at the table. If I remember correctly the lineup it was Matusow, Gold, Shawn Sheikhan, Daniel Alaei, Bill Chen, Negreanu (who switched spots with Kaplan for an episode or two), Elizera and Doyle Brunson.
The hand where Jamie and Hellmuth are heads up and Hellmuth is playing behind, Phil has already sent for the money, it isn't there yet. He asks Daniel for the $150k and Daniel knowing that Phil is good for the money just gives it to him no questions asked. Jamie is being a slight dick, and I say that because that is his general personally. I have friends who deal these types of nosebleed stakes and they have said that loans of $100k-$500k happen regularly with nothing more then a verbal agreement and the person extending the loan making a note in a notebook or phone.
Hellmuth was not playing with casino credit. Casinos do not loan money to customers to play poker.
Hellmuth was saying he had money at another location and would make good on his losses if need be at a later time. The part you are right about is Doyle is an old school gambler where he literally drove to games and had to worry about being robbed so feels like everyone should show up to the casino prepared with what they are going
to play with. Also need to remember that Hellmuth was a big underdog in these games (didn’t play a lot of high stakes cash) and the thought of having to cover him (loan him money) and collect down the road was probably not appealing to an old school guy like Doyle.
I remember him saying something like " hell no hes not playing behind".
Just because you didn’t see it doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. It happened. This is a very normal part of any live poker game.
There was nothing normal going on here.
Let the record show he played the entire season without ever producing the money or it appearing in his stack.
You’re incorrect here. This isn’t your local 2/5 game where somebody has $500 coming that they’ve given to a chip runner.
In super high stakes games like this, where you can’t just go to the atm and take out $100k, sometimes players would “play behind” if they were known to be good for the money but did not physically have it on them. It’s a form of credit and requires everyone at the table to agree it to it since they are all equally at risk of being freerolled. Given someone of Hellmuth’s profile and reputation, it’s a pretty low risk venture for everybody at the table, but it’s also an extra headache for all involved. This is why Doyle only agreed to it if everybody else did. It’s much more common nowadays for somebody to just loan him cash or chips and Hellmuth owe one person directly.
Regardless, this wasn’t your normal “chips in transit” type of playing behind.
lol where do u play
Probably better to ask where you play if you’ve never seen this before.
This is not him playing behind for a few minutes while waiting for chips. This is Phil basically borrowing money from the table
Episode and time stamp?
Season 4 Episode 9, about 8 minutes in.
When you have “money or chips behind” it means you paid for them and the chip runner hasn’t brought them yet. Usually the dealer will announce a player has chips behind before the hand starts so everyone’s aware they have imaginary chips to play with while they wait. It’s to keep the game rolling when someone is still financially in the game