T O P
Robertsonland

Looking at the current [2021 tax tables](https://azdor.gov/forms/individual/form-140-x-y-tables) that would mean the following A single person making the max for each bracket * $28,808 taxable income in 2021 paid $720.23 in taxes under the flat tax would pay $695.20 a savings of $25.03 * $55,615 taxable income in 2021 paid $1648.75 in taxes under the flat tax would pay $1390.38 a savings of $258.38 * $166,843 taxable income in 2021 paid $6287.21 in taxes under the flat tax would pay $4171.08 a savings of $2116.13 * $500,000 taxable income in 2021 paid $21,279.07 in taxes under the flat tax would pay $12,500 a savings of $8,779.07 EDIT: This is just a generalization based on taxable income. Many time a flat tax excludes some deductible items so your "taxable" amount that is hit by the 2.5% could go up I just haven't seen the plan to know if it's apples to apples on taxable income and just the tax tables are flat or flat tax against more of your income. So you can see while those who make more pay in more they also save a lot more on this. Up to 41% tax savings where the bottom tier while not paying in a lot, saves 3% of their tax bill.


Rommyappus

Why is there such a disparity since it’s the same percentage?


nikeairj

Because higher income people used to pay higher tax rate in 2021, thus they’re saving more with this tax cut.


hjablowme919

Another tax cut for the rich.


spudzzzi

What?!?!?!? The GQP cutting taxes for the rich?!?!??!?! SHOCKED!!!!!!!!!


awesomface

Tax cuts will almost always have a larger number in favor of the rich because they pay the most taxes. Don’t fall into the community that doesn’t understand how numbers work. People making under 55k end up paying little to no taxes after refunds and credits. They could have cut taxes by 100% for the poor and the numbers would still show the rich saving more on taxes.


[deleted]

Not a great idea to cut taxes in an already low tax state when more people are moving in bulk and infrastructure needs are bound to rise. You’ll have shitty roads like Dallas soon.. Enjoy I guess.


hjablowme919

The idea that the rich get a tax cut at all is the problem. Instead of giving someone with a $500,000 income a $10,000 tax cut, eliminate the $700 a year in taxes people making $30,000 a year pay. Right now, a $25 per year tax cut does absolutely nothing for people at the bottom of the income ladder. The state could have given them all a free cup of coffee every day and they'd literally be better off. Also, those refunds and credits also apply to rich people.


awesomface

I’m not some proponent of the rich but I don’t believe the government does a good job of spending tax dollars to fix issues so I’d rather see less taxes in general and other ways of fixing disparities if needed. Sadly there are some people that deserve to be poor and will not change regardless of how much you give them


hjablowme919

> but I don’t believe the government does a good job of spending tax dollars to fix issues That's a fair, but different discussion. >so I’d rather see less taxes in general The problem is, that also negatively impacts the poor, who are the most reliant on government services. ​ >Sadly there are some people that deserve to be poor Who "deserves to be poor"? The only people I think deserve to be poor are rich assholes who did nothing but inherit their parents money. That should be taxed at 99% so they actually have to do something other than live off someone else's work.


awesomface

My gf works for a staffing company. The amount of people who self sabotage their own lives and blame it on everything else around them is staggering. It’s not always drugs/alcohol or other things, some are literally just selfish and living their life day to day and not thinking of anything but what they want immediately and will never succeed and frankly don’t deserve to. That’s the good part of the US being a world leader in immigration. Those people work and know how good even our poorest have it here


hjablowme919

>The amount of people who self sabotage their own lives and blame it on everything else around them is staggering. Oh yeah. I know a few of these types of people. I try to forget about them because they are almost always miserable and like you said, nothing is ever their fault. 30 years of bad life choices and somehow it was Obama's fault, or now it's Bidens fault. They weren't successful under Trump either, but then it was Cuomo's fault here in NY.


betucsonan

>I’m not some proponent of the rich Okay, sweet. ​ >there are some people that deserve to be poor Oh ... you were kidding.


awesomface

Some people are just going to make more money because they deserve it. We can’t just lump people in as rich or poor. That’s what politicians want and it’s a dangerous road


betucsonan

>I’m not some proponent of the rich > > > >there are some people that deserve to be poor > > > >We can’t just lump people in as rich or poor.


SamSeebourne

>We can’t just lump people in as rich or poor. You must be saying that ironically, given your prior statements about "people deserving to be poor". It seems like you don't have object permanence, or maybe you think we aren't capable of reading. I'm not sure, let me know.


Rommyappus

Oh ok I thought it was a flat rate before as well. That makes sense. Thank you


T1mac

>Why is there such a disparity since it’s the same percentage? Because it goes from a [progressive tax plan](https://www.investopedia.com/terms/p/progressivetax.asp) to a [regressive tax plan](https://taxfoundation.org/tax-basics/regressive-tax/) It means the poor get screwed, they get more of a tax burden compared to the rich. That's why the rich love the flat tax.


vquantum

Honest question. Would you rather pay more $ just to know you are paying less % than someone who makes more? I feel the bottom line, regardless of who you are, is the dollar amount.


Due-Bedroom-6947

I would rather have roads to drive on and a teacher that’s paid enough to show up to school for my kids.


[deleted]

Exactly. It’s already a low tax state. Atleast do a better job at tourism like Utah or Florida and raise money that way.


MostlyImtired

The teacher thing is huge.. kids in the az school system are really suffering. I don't blame teachers for bailing at all..


hjablowme919

Given the example in another post, a low income person making $28,000 would get a $25 a year tax cut. That's 50 cents a week. You don't even notice that. A person with a $500,000 income gets a cut of almost $9,000 a year. You notice that.


ckeeler11

In reality though that person making 28k a year is not even paying anything after credits and deductions.


hjablowme919

And the person making $500,000 isn't really paying what they are paying after deductions and credits either.


ckeeler11

But they are still paying. So yes the tax cut is less for the person making less but if he has no tax liability it really does not matter. The guy making 500k still has a pretty hefty tax bill.


GabriellaVM

Nope. I'm in the lowest bracket, but I'd rather pay that paltry $25 extra, knowing that those who are in high tax brackets don't pay less than they're already paying. AZ is already so underfunded in social services and education. We rank lowest in the nation in so many areas that would be improved.


jdcnosse1988

Because AZ used to have an incremental (or maybe there's another term for it) tax that was based on your income. It's primarily why when filling out the tax forms for employment they give you the options of 0.8, 1.3, 1.8, 2.7, 3.something, and i believe there's a 4.something too and so on for how much tax to take out. While a flat tax seems more equal, it's actually going to raise taxes on the lower income people while reducing taxes on the highest income people.


Fn_Spaghetti_Monster

I think anyone, with any kind of empathy will realize a flat tax isn't 'fair' if they actually stopped and thought about. If I am making $500 a week and pay 10%, that $50 is going to have a much bigger impact on me than someone making $5,000 a week and having to pay $500 in taxes. (I used to be a flat tax proponent myself until I took a ethics class)


Possible_Truth

I made $550k last year and that savings of $8k is pretty much meaningless to me, they might as well keep it


unicornsex

Give it to me. I'll take it.


unbibium

seriously, the only way society doesn't collapse is if the rich start giving their tax cut savings directly to poor people who need rent money, at this point.


chobbg

I don’t need it but I’ll take it to cover some airfare and give you a tax deductible receipt.


BigGreenPepperpecker

Found the liar


TheFloatingDev

Clapped


Possible_Truth

You’re right it was $550k between my wife and I, with her bringing in 2/3 of that


FoxFireUnlimited

This is making it seem like people who fall into those brackets have a flat tax of the maximum but it's supposed to only be 2.5% maximum, correct? The way this is worded, I'm reading it as, if I make $55,614 then I pay $1,390 but if I make $55,616 then I'd pay $4,171. This had better not be correct because, just today, I took a new position that bumps me up to 57 salary from 54 hourly which means I'll be working a more complex and difficult job with longer hours for less take-home. Someone please pat me on the head and tell me I'm just reading it too literally and it's only 2.5%, please?


monty624

No. That's the estimated tax for someone AT that income, which is the top of each tax bracket. It is not possible to take home less because tax is incremental. However, the relative increase could be less than you're expecting because of the next bracket's tax rate.


FoxFireUnlimited

Yeah, that's why I was confused since the article I'd found said flat 2.5% maximum but then this had brackets with exact figures...it's very late and I haven't slept well in a few days. Thanks for the clarification!


BenTherDoneThat5555

I'm just going to stop paying taxes all around until they start doing something for the "little guys".


VariableChanges

Fellow human here, I don't think that will work out as intended. Best of luck.


TweaksForWeeks

As someone that would benefit from this, I don’t support the change. Arizona already has a relatively low tax percentage for the higher brackets. Don’t make Arizona cheaper, make it a better place to live and raise a family.


[deleted]

Exactly. Schools are shit and highways are shit outside the valley. It’ll turn into Texas with similar shitty infrastructure.


TrophyTracker

>Schools are shit This is exactly what they want to maintain. It's easier to convince uneducated people to commit atrocities and vote against their own interests. This is why AZ is one of the 10 "dumbest" states in the US. And ranked 46/50 for education. https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/dumbest-states https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/best-states-for-education


Saik0Shinigami

Your own link shows AZ az 14th "dumbest" right behind NY in#15... but NY is #1 in spending if i recall correctly... Edit: Yeah so one of these lists is fucking pure stupid. I've consolidated them together. If the IQ list is accurate then the "education ranking" is utter nonsense. State | averageIQ | | overallRank | higherEducationRank | prek12Rank --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- New Mexico | 95 | | 50 | 29 | 50 Louisiana | 95.2 | | 48 | 49 | 46 Mississippi | 95.8 | | 43 | 33 | 45 Alabama | 96.4 | | 47 | 47 | 49 Nevada | 96.6 | | 40 | 18 | 48 Arkansas | 97.1 | | 41 | 40 | 40 California | 97.1 | | 20 | 4 | 37 West Virginia | 97.2 | | 45 | 45 | 42 Texas | 97.4 | | 34 | 32 | 33 South Carolina | 97.8 | | 44 | 46 | 41 Georgia | 98.1 | | 26 | 25 | 31 Oklahoma | 98.2 | | 42 | 28 | 43 Arizona | 98.3 | | 46 | 24 | 44 Tennessee | 98.3 | | 33 | 23 | 38 New York | 98.4 | | 16 | 15 | 25 Delaware | 98.7 | | 24 | 16 | 24 Florida | 98.8 | | 3 | 1 | 27 Kentucky | 98.8 | | 36 | 43 | 32 Hawaii | 99.2 | | 27 | 21 | 30 Alaska | 99.4 | | 49 | 36 | 47 Illinois | 99.4 | | 11 | 31 | 7 Rhode Island | 99.4 | | 39 | 48 | 36 Missouri | 99.5 | | 30 | 26 | 21 North Carolina | 99.5 | | 7 | 12 | 28 Michigan | 99.6 | | 38 | 42 | 29 Maryland | 100 | | 14 | 17 | 11 Ohio | 100 | | 31 | 38 | 18 Pennsylvania | 100.2 | | 37 | 50 | 10 Oregon | 100.3 | | 35 | 22 | 39 Idaho | 100.5 | | 29 | 35 | 26 Kansas | 100.5 | | 23 | 13 | 15 Indiana | 100.6 | | 22 | 39 | 6 South Dakota | 100.7 | | 19 | 10 | 23 Maine | 100.9 | | 28 | 34 | 17 New Jersey | 101 | | 1 | 30 | 2 Colorado | 101.1 | | 5 | 9 | 14 Iowa | 101.1 | | 18 | 8 | 13 Montana | 101.1 | | 32 | 19 | 20 Connecticut | 101.2 | | 6 | 44 | 5 Nebraska | 101.2 | | 9 | 7 | 9 Virginia | 101.2 | | 12 | 14 | 8 Wisconsin | 101.2 | | 8 | 11 | 16 Utah | 101.5 | | 10 | 6 | 22 Washington | 101.5 | | 4 | 2 | 19 North Dakota | 101.7 | | 25 | 5 | 35 Wyoming | 101.7 | | 21 | 3 | 34 Vermont | 102.2 | | 15 | 41 | 4 Minnesota | 102.9 | | 17 | 20 | 12 Massachusetts | 103.1 | | 2 | 27 | 1 New Hampshire | 103.2 | | 13 | 37 | 3


Fn_Spaghetti_Monster

>highways are shit outside the valley Drove to Ash Fork last weekend, man there are some rough spots on the 17 and 69. Heck even the San Tan 202 has some bad spots and it's not even that old.


GarthZorn

I guess my biggest question is "why now?" Why not spend the "surplus" on infrastructure? Smells like a last-ditch Douchey move to prop up the GOP mid-meltdown. What a clown show that party has become.


gr8tfurme

It's to screw over the next person in charge when they are inevitably forced to raise taxes back to what they were.


[deleted]

Thank God someone is finally looking out for the millionaires and billionaires of Arizona.


IONTOP

Wow. What an ignorant comment. I work at PV Country Club. I look out for them every day. This is a joke, but also true, I just don't talk politics with my members and I should learn to not do this on here.


Redebo

Was there yesterday, thanks for the service! :)


hodl_4_life

Holy underrated comment, Batman! Like for fucks sake… the idiots making 40k a year thinking this is so much better for them is ridiculous… DeRpA dEr… fuck the roads and schools there are rich people in Scottsdale we need to protect from civic responsibility!


Bored_n_Beard

It's because our education sucks. We see 'everyone will save!' and don't read the rest. It's part of the plot though, right? Underfund education, keep the education that is there unhealthy and unable to teach the things needed (understanding of budgeting, taxes, etc.) And poof... Able to make something that's not that great sound wonderful.


PandaTheVenusProject

It's because we don't teach people how to be wrong with grace. Our civil discourse is the residue of faith. Hint: the solution is the thing the rich have spent the most ammount of resources fighting around the world. Go figure.


selco13

You mean communism? Tell me where that has worked out. I’m not defending the rich but I sure as hell don’t think communism has any shot at working.


PandaTheVenusProject

Do you feel you have a strong grasp on the historical and material contexts that these socialist nations faced? Do you think any party might have interest in making you think the way you do? Would said party have control over the narrative? Do you have any memmory of socialism being attacked in good faith? Any memmory of socialism losing on the debate floor? Do you understand any of the theory involved before you make your judgement? Are you already angry with me for pointing these things out? Do you usually trust Nixon and Regan to tell you the truth? They are who originated the red scare in America. Do you trust them? Do you want to believe what you already do? Or do you want to know?


selco13

I’m not angry at you, any my thoughts don’t at all come from Nixon, Reagan, or the red scare. I am a historian that focuses on modern history, mainly from WWI through the interwar period and WWII, however I also have studied the Cold War period. I do have a strong grasp on the historical and material contexts. I do understand that political parties have biases, and have influenced or attempted to influence public thought on a variety of topics, including political science. I do understand the theory of socialism and communism and while the theory itself isn’t the worst I ask again to point out a few countries that give a good example of the model as I have no recollection of it not leading to some kind of dictatorship. I’ll ask some of my friends that escaped from the Khmer Rouge how that worked for them. Would Stalinist type rule work better? Or more like Zedong? Or Kim? Those weren’t “real” communist states though I’m sure. How do you deal with all consumer choice and jobs being decided by a central planner? Or do you cede on some communist principles and go mixed as China does today? I surely know everyone in China lives a wonderful, free life.


gr8tfurme

No offense, but if you think that communism == a centrally planned economy run by an authoritarian state, you really don't understand communist and socialist theory at all. Hint: there are more types of socialism than state socialism, and Marxist-Leninism is not the only game in town when it comes to communist ideology. I mean you call yourself a historian, but do you even know anything about all the other types of socialists and leftists who took part in Russia's Civil War? Do you know who the Mencheviks were? The history of anarchist and leftist union organizing in your own country? Marxist Leninists and other authoritarian strains of communist ideology were the most successful at establishing their own state because the less authoritarian communists were either done in by CIA coups or murdered by the ML's after the revolution. If you look at the history of violent revolution in general, you'll find that the most common result tends to select for an authoritarian to fill the power vacuum. If you look at the history of non-violent reform or mass protest, you'll find that the capitalist class tends to brutally murder any reformer who might try to do away with the capitalist power structure.


selco13

I understand there was quite a bit of simplification and nuance left out, I am fully aware that Marxist-Leninism is far from the only flavor out there. Regardless, I see no currently existing country (nor one in any recent lifetime) that has been successful as a primarily socialist or communist run state. I did not claim to be an expert on Russian history in particular, however I am familiar with Russian civil war. This argument again sidesteps all of my questions to poke holes at specific details. In the early 20th century it was common in most countries to have multiple political factions, and even sub factions, fighting for the pulpit.


gr8tfurme

I mean what do you even want me to say? The socialist countries that were able to form did so via violent revolution and civil war, and maintained their power despite the CIA fucking with them via authoritarianism. The socialist governments that didn't form this way were not able to maintain power because they were fucking assassinated by capitalist interests. Like, sorry that I can't point toward Chile as an example of a successful socialist nation because the CIA planned a coup and replaced the Allende government with a brutal capitalist dictatorship before it could really even do much. Libertarian socialism is inherently anti-authoritarian, which unfortunately makes it very vulnerable to getting steamrolled by authoritarian and imperialist powers which are better at performing mass violence. Like, I'd love to point to a place like Rojava as being a fairly successful libertarian socialist nation, but all other states have refused to acknowledge their autonomy and they'll likely end up being bombed into submission by Turkey or the Assad regime at some point in the next few decades.


PandaTheVenusProject

So you were aware that the soviet people started out as a backwater nation ruled by a tzar. Overthrew the tzar. Then, had to immediately fight physical troops that America and other first world nations sent. Won. Then they endured the most costly war humanity has ever known on their soil. To do this they expanded economically more explosively then the world has ever seen and without the slaves from the north Atlantic slave trade. Not by exploiting Africa or South America. They did it. They underwent the most massive literacy campaign the world had ever seen. Educating millions. Raising millions out of poverty. 60% of politics were blue collar jobs in Stalin's day. They rose from being a backwater peasantry to being the world's second greatest super power in a generation. Beating the world to space. Producing great works of art. Politicians were making around double the pay of workers. Then what did America do? The cold war. Forced then to compete in an arms race. Now they could not focus on consumer goods to make everyone comfortable. Yet despite enduring more agression then any nation ever objectively. None could topple them. Then khruschev and Gorbachev came and started to adopt capitalist policies. And within years of Pizza Hut... it crumbled. Capitalist Russia started as the second greatest nation. Where are they now? How has capitalism treated Russia? And more importantly. Why are you not concerned with the parasitic employer employee relationship if you are well read on this? Certainly you are aware of the global ecological collapse capitalism is causing. What metric are we using to measure sucuess or fail? If I had to criticize socialism my two largest concerns are: 1. America will attack you. 2. Great measures must be taken against revisionism. Also the very idea of authoritarianism is a red herring. I have a strong theory on that called the pink truck theory.


selco13

You didn’t answer my questions, also tell me about the Holodomor. You bring up a few objective wins the USSR had, but gloss over the far more numerous negatives. The Soviets also had an excursion in Afghanistan and meddled throughout the world as well, they weren’t dragged into anything unwillingly. Shortages and hoarding were common in the USSR and the black market was estimated at over 10% of GDP. I have met many people that lived in the former Soviet Union, not one would willingly live in that system again. I understand that is anecdotal, but then again, even Soviet leaders were dumbfounded at the sight of supply at American stores. In 1976 only two thirds of Soviet families had a refrigerator—the USA hit two thirds in the early 1930s. Soviet families had to wait years to get one, and when they finally got a postcard giving notice they could buy one, they had a fixed one hour slot during which they could pick it up. They lost their chance if they did not arrive in time. In the same period, the USA had nearly 100m passenger cars. The USSR? Five million. People typically had to wait four to six years, and often as long as ten, to get one. There was 30x as much typhoid, 20x as much measles, and cancer detection rates were half as good as in the United States. Life expectancy actually fell in the Soviet Union during the 1960s and 1970s. The USSR had the highest physician-patient ratio in the world, triple the UK rate, but many medical school graduates could not perform basic tasks like reading an electrocardiogram. 15% of the population lived in areas with pollution 10x normal levels. By the US poverty measure, well over half of the Soviet population were poor. Around a quarter could not afford a winter hat or coat, which cost an entire month’s wages on average.


drdougfresh

Think of all the "small business owners!" /s


jdcnosse1988

Like the guy who owned discount tire! /s


Important-Owl1661

Why we'll be the California Tax Haven in no time at all! The only problem is they will be rolling their equity checks into buying Arizona properties wholesale (as rollovers) and driving up prices for people who have lived here for years... Uh, wait...😱


defective_toaster

They'd have to beat Blackrock to it first 🙃


beein480

I will be a "beneficiary" of this change, but not by a huge amount of money. Unfortunately, I expect the city and county and schools will need more money, I have no doubt my property taxes will have to rise regardless. It's kind of a zero sum game, you can cut my taxes at the state level but they just end up making it up elsewhere, but I'll take any break I can get at this point.


vasya349

It works the same way locally, rich area pay less tax and poor areas pay more because less money per person to pay for services.


politicsofexperience

I was really worried they might have felt the pain of inflation


Nadie_AZ

It's like nobody paid any attention to Kansas when they performed their flat tax experiment. The GOP eventually rebelled against itself and raised taxes. Anyone remember 'Brownbackistan'?


mmrrbbee

They literally do no research, this is a purple state currently administered by regressives. Research = more reading, and they don’t like that.


Important-Owl1661

Why read when you can have lobbyists buy you lunch and other trinkets?


mmrrbbee

“Massages”


theoutlet

They didn’t become right wing voters just so they could be burdened with independent thought


John-Footdick

Most of the people in this topic probably won’t even notice this change unless you make over 150k. This isn’t going to really help anyone except the wealthy. This also sets up a more responsible governor in the future (probably democrat) to take the fall for needing to increase taxes to make up for what this moron just decided to defund.


danzibara

Tax increases at the AZ Legislature require a 2/3 supermajority while decreases only need a simple majority. Regardless of how responsible or necessary a tax increase may be, it just won’t happen. Could voters use direct democracy to refer this tax cut to the ballot or even increase taxes? Nope, the AZ Supreme Court (stacked with shitbag Ducey appointees like Clint Bolick and Bill Montgomery) decoded that voters don’t get to use their power when it comes to taxes. Basically, expect every service funded by the state to get way worse for the next 5-10 years.


[deleted]

Oh come on! How can public services in Arizona possibly get any worse!


Hvarfa-Bragi

> 8,779.07 If you make $500k/yr, $8700 isn't going to be noticeable. It might pay a bit of your capital gains. a $4000 windfall for a $160k household would be helpful, and even $1300 for $55k earner is nothing to sneeze at. The rich won't notice this as much as lower incomes will. Edit: I was using the other poster's numbers. Point stands about 8700 not meaning jack when you make half a million a year.


Starfocus81613

Check the 2021 tax tables (https://azdor.gov/file/12196/download?token=pm1w2bDX) vs the proposed flat tax rate of 2.5%, your math is clearly wrong on the amount saved per bracket (you seriously thought that 55k earners would get back 1.3k?.. That’d be GREAT if that were true): - 500k, married: [(500,000-333,684)*4.5%+12,574] - [500,000*2.5%] = 20,068.22 - 12,500 = 8,431.78 - 160k, married: [(160,000-111,229)*4.17%+3,298] - [160,000*2.5%] = 5,331.17 - 4,000 = 1,331.17 - 55k, married (under 55,219 for the minimum): [55,000 * 2.59%] - [55,000 * 2.5%] = 1,424.50 - 1,375 = 49.50 If they keep the same base tax amounts as in 2021 (not likely), then we would compare the decrease in % only, so (2% less for couples over $333684, 1.17% less for 111,229, 0.84% over 55219, and 0.09% base). Consider that as well for a moment. 2% of 4.5% is a **44.4%** reduction in the tax rate while families earning less than 55,219 annually see 0.09% of 2.59% taken off, or **3.47%** reduction in their tax rate. Now maybe you can see how fucking stupid this is and how arbitrarily it impacts lower incomes vs higher incomes. Sure, the rich won’t notice an extra 8k+ annually, so why are we giving them a tax break in the first place when that money can contribute to commonwealth services and programs?


InternetPharaoh

I make $76,000/year and I'm looking at about $250. Where are you seeing $1300? You must have misread something because the numbers you're putting forward describe me as owing $0 in taxes.


Versaiteis

> If you make $500k/yr, $8700 isn't going to be noticeable. It might pay a bit of your capital gains. > > Cool, then they wouldn't miss it. That's what, 10 years worth of bus/light rail fare?


k3bly

Cheap rich people will care. There are many cheap rich people out there. But for those actually focused on building businesses, building wealth, and aren’t cheap, they won’t care.


John-Footdick

I don’t think you read the article correctly.


ouishi

An extra $8700 can be a down payment in just a few years, whereas $1300 per year will take decades. Now, tell me who you think needs more help saving for a home, the person making $500/yr or the one making $55k/yr? And that's using your generous calculations.


Altruistic_Ad_6421

Lol earning over 150k isn’t wealthy. Cutoff for wealthy is more like 500k. Most people truly have no conception of how much money rich people make (they’d probably riot if they knew!).


DPerceptionPhoto

And if anyone has seen the prices of homes in az and rent prices the past two years , anything under 150k Is consider middle class.


Dinklemeier

Must be a lotta people here getting salty over that statement. 150k isnt even close to wealthy. Whats that..maybe 100k after taxes, like 8k a month? Try paying a mortgage, car payment, house maintenance, insurance, occasional vacation, kids education and occasioal eating out on that while "getting wealthy." Oh yeah..don't want to work forever, throw some into your 401k as well. Relatively more than someone making 50k a year of course. Much more. But wealthy? Lol.


alpha_kenny_buddy

I don’t understand when they say that if you make 150k between two people it is considered wealthy either. I mean any couple in their 30s working full time is making $60k combined easy even if they are working at a fast food place. Edit: added the word combined after $60k


Randvek

150k is roughly the cutoff for upper class. Yes, there are people who make much, much more than that, but upper class is upper class. I’m in that bracket. I have a nice home (and hefty mortgage). I have debt. I take vacations. Most upper class people really don’t live lives much different than the middle class. This tax cut is gonna do jack shit for me. It’s those 1%ers that can just go fuck off.


ssracer

Upper middle. You ain't upper.


Randvek

[Facts are hard.](https://finance.yahoo.com/news/fall-americas-lower-middle-upper-133000384.html) “Upper class” is double median. The median is 75k-ish. I’m sorry if that doesn’t feel right, but facts are facts.


Ok_Yogurtcloset_769

Arizona is doing so well. We have billions in the rainy day fund. There’s no need to tax the people, AZ is making money off all the business that moved here and tourism.


ElectricLego

I wouldn't mind seeing some of that slush fund spent on teachers to bring Arizona out of the bottom ranks of education in the US.


EnOhVeHey

Arizona is doing well? Aren’t we like second to last in education or something??


Freshman195

And we continue to cut the spending on it


theoutlet

We don’t have reserves saved up by spending it on education


robodrew

That must be why Arizona keeps topping lists of worst state in the nation to live in this year, because we are doing so well


John-Footdick

Source?


Mosaki

What crack pipe are you hitting?


Khajiit_hairball

Awesome. Maybe I’ll have 45 students in my class instead of 35.


danjouswoodenhand

C'mon, what kind of attitude is that? Dream big! Go for a round number, say...50?


hjablowme919

Arizona will be broke in less than 5 years, and will end up cutting services to try to make up for this.


friendnoodle

At least we already know how to sell all the state buildings! /s


MostlyImtired

will we? they are sitting on what 4 billion in surplus watching everything burn but hey TAX CUTS FOR MAH BOYS! Should help with private school costs!


dldugan14

I think that’s the point Ducey would love to see a version of Arizona where the public school system all but doesn’t exist and other social services aren’t exactly better off. Privatization puts money in his buddies pockets and people who have crappy public services are easier to convince that private ones will be a better option.


betucsonan

The plan: 1. Cut/curtail/hinder public services of all kinds. 2. Blame "poor government management of taxpayer moneys" for the poor public services and use that justification for lowering taxes 3. Further cut/curtail/hinder public services of all kinds based on step 2 4. Rinse and repeat.


phuck-you-reddit

And conveniently they can blame everyone else, especially the Dems, when the repercussions come. Their voters have the memories of goldfish so it always works. 🤦🏻‍♂️


jenthecactuswren

Personally, this will double the amount I pay in state taxes because I make very little. Under the current bracket system, we're allowed a standard deduction which helps me out greatly. With a flat tax you don't get any deductions or exemptions. Guess I'll benefit when I get a better job though. Edit: This is not true! The standard deductions will still apply. So nobody will see their state taxes go up under the new plan.


hotelindia

They're calling it a "flat tax," but it leaves the standard deduction in place. So that's something, at least.


jenthecactuswren

Where did you find that? I hope you're right!


Robertsonland

Yes it leaves all deductions in place from what I read this morning [here](https://archive.ph/Z92jm). So you will save something just less than the mega rich.


endlesslyconflicted

It’s ok, they can pay for it by cutting education. Again. Don’t want that educated electorate


theoutlet

“Well, my kids already graduated so why should I have to pay?” -Some idiot


InternetPharaoh

Did the teachers ever get that promised 5% pay raise? Ducey said he'd sell off State land to pay for it but then the AZ Supreme Court blocked that.


wickedsmaht

Tax cut for the rich, because fuck the rest of us. Right, Dougie?


Dinosar-DNA

That’s the republican way, homie!


Tustacales

you do realize that, as the source of most tax revenue, the rich will almost always benefit more from a tax cut than someone that isn't making a lot, right? If you pay 100k in taxes, a 10% cut means $10k saved vs. $100 for someone only paying a grand.. it's basic math. of the original $29,934 paid in, the lowest bracket paid in only 2.4% while the highest two brackets paid in 92% of all taxes discussed here. I know you're going for "their fair share" and all that, so if 92% isn't "fair enough," i'm curious what amount is. in the new tax plan, of $18756 paid in, the lowest bracket is paying in 3.4% (while still paying less overall than they did last year) and the highest is paying in $12500, or 66%. and the top two together pay in 88%. Almost 90% again. ​ You're basically complaining that you got a tax break, but because someone else already pays in more to the system, they benefit more when the government lowers taxes. ​ I'm not sure why the don't drop the lower tax brackets a bit more. I mean, realistically, they pay in such a small % anyway, it would hardly matter. Not that it would stop you from complaining i'm sure, even if your % drop in taxes was the same as their.


John-Footdick

So you agree the tax cut really only helps the wealthy? Because those tax dollars would otherwise benefit the majority of people including government workers (teachers, cops, firefighters) and needed infrastructure. But considering the majority are poor people, who cares - right?


Carnanian

This is literally so backwards lol. In your example, if I pay 100k in taxes, I would be making upwards of $5 million per year. If you give me an extra $10k, that money doesn't help me in any way because I don't need $10k. I put it in the bank or investments. If I pay $1000 in taxes, I make about $40k per year. The extra $8 a month I'm receiving will be spent on something, hell coffee can be $8 in this economy. Give 100,000 people a small tax cut, $800,000 gets spent in the economy. Give 10 rich people a tax cut, $800,000 ends up in savings accounts, not stimulating the economy


ltsnwork

Tax cuts reduce funding for public services like education. It’s not just about how much you see in your paycheck.


majorflojo

> they [the wealthy] benefit more when the government lowers taxes. Yes. And they're the only beneficiary, not the citizens of the great State of AZ who don't benefit. Often they suffer. Except for the wealthy. I know it's hard to take, but higher marginal rates for the wealthy does in fact make for better quality of life for all. Before you rebut or dismiss - Remember Kansas and the Brownback experiment.


Randvek

You can keep sucking the dicks of rich people if you want, but it’s not going to make you one.


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gogojack

So it will trickle down in (checks notes on trickle down economics)... Never.


shrekerecker97

How is he paying for this Tax cut? This seems pretty short sided if he has no plans to pay for it. I have a feeling raising his taxes on the poor/middle class while making others pay for it is his plan. he is a giant douchewaffle like that.


logicforthewin

Because AZ has a 16 billion dollar surplus


shrekerecker97

If we have a surplus then why the hell are the roads crumbling, teachers underpaid, and our state ranking bottom on pretty much everything? It's a gross mismanagement of money


logicforthewin

I’m not pulling this out of my ass, this was the justification for doing so. No one argued politicians know how to spend our money.


ShortsAdventure

The surplus is there because we aren't spending tax money on any of those things, which are all desperately needed. And now folks can take their kid's allotted tax dollars and use them to home school or get part of their private school tuition paid for. It's definitely gross. We need to elect Democrats this go around, because there are very few Republicans who aren't trying to dismantle government running. The traditional Rs all lost primaries.


phuck-you-reddit

Republicans don't care about fiscal responsibility. They just cut taxes and kick the can to others making them deal with the repercussions. Often leading to budget cuts from infrastructure, education, social services, etc. If the GOP really were pro life and Christian they'd spend budget surpluses helping people, especially the poor.


TrophyTracker

So damn true.


betucsonan

>How is he paying for this Tax cut? With freedom and bald eagle tears and guns, guns and guns, duh.


Dinklemeier

Best answer here


thedukejck

Lower taxes less government = underfunded schools and chaos.


Leevstar1

That’s not true. Cook county (Chicago) has some of the highest taxes in the country with one of the worst public school systems and highest chaos in the country.


tayto

Chicago public schools have some of the top rated grade schools and high schools in the state (eg Jones, Northside, and Walter Payton). These are schools that no public high school in AZ can touch (nor Brophy or PCD as a private example). They also have some of the worst - very high inequity. The higher taxes are exclusively due to historically underfunded pension plans. If you want to make comparisons it should be based on the funding that actually reaches the schools, but otherwise it’s a very poor comparison.


vasya349

We’re like #48 in education lol. Don’t throw stones in our glass house please.


thedukejck

The chaos is because of all the guns they can easily buy in Indiana, Iowa, Missouri, Kentucky and last I checked, Arizona is 51st in School Funding. How bad can it get.


[deleted]

Other states are giving cash money to families with that surplus, this bastard is helping his rich friends that keep him in power


Pootertron_

This guys a clown, question is are we going to allow an even bigger clown to take over after him?


InternetPharaoh

Yes, we are. The voters, in a Democracy, only cast the vote. They're the LAST step in an electoral process, not the first. The middle-step in getting elected is going out there and talking to business owners, people who can write $2000, $8000, or $20,000 checks to add to your election warchest. Without that advertising money, no voter will ever hear your name. So before you even have a chance at the voters, you have to appeal to the owners. Therefore by the time a voter even heard of someone, they've almost certainly been \*certified\* by the business owners - and the business owners only do that for people they feel will represent their interests. Therefore you're stuck with two, maybe three if you're lucky, people who the business-owners have approved, and you're now allowed to vote on. And Ducey represents the business-owners, and his replacement will as well. So will we allow a bigger clown to take over after him? We don't really have a choice in the matter. We pick between what the owner of Carvana wants, and what the owner of Discount Tire wants. They might disagree on somethings, but neither of what their candidates want, is what we, the working class wants.


Pootertron_

That's true for our circumstances but it doesn't have to always be like that, organization down to the individual/grassroots level is whats needed right now we are seeing after decades of decline unions are back on the rise and in some cases making ground for the working class again. What I mean is this,, ill use myself for an example in 2020 I helped to get almost 200 of everyone I know to vote, I'm not saying it helped at large but activation from everyone in our lives is paramount. I'm no fan of either candidate (I'm more of the left) but if we want to stop our decline of democracy there is only one obvious choice this election.


ouishi

...and here's my chance to plug [Voter Choice Arizona](https://www.voterchoicearizona.org/)!


vasya349

No offense, electing the fucking chamber of commerce would be better than electing Kari Lake at this point lol. So I’m going to vote for somebody who’s marginally better than the average establishment politician to keep the clown who could literally make the state unlivable out. Voting takes five minutes tops.


Jra805

I wonder if this politics for if Hobbs is elected. She raises taxes after Dicey empties the state coffers, the next “conservative” candidate comes along and this is their main talking point.


Pepperoni_nipps

[Lowering taxes when phoenix has 13% inflation?](https://www.12news.com/amp/article/news/local/valley/phoenix-inflation-rate-ranks-highest-in-the-nation/75-a8aa4eea-eb70-4b0f-8031-faa3c2fc5275) 🙄🔫 Is Ducey trying to out-dumb the UK?


dont-be-a-todd

So glad our wealthiest residents will get the same tax cut.🙄


Pure-Freedom7198

RENT WENT UP×3, GROCERIES WENT UP×3 GAS WENT UP×3. NOW WHERES THE COOKIE AT AGAIN?


SuperGenius98K

Another conservative robbing the middle class. Who's voting for these corrupt scumbags?


CapitalLeader

Is this tax cut a piece of legislation/bill/law or an EO? And if it’s a law, wouldn’t the bill have had an effective date in its text? How can he order an early implementation??


dude-is-wax

What a boneheaded move…


YourLictorAndChef

This is going to raise the cost of living for the vast majority of Arizona residents.


dreamsthebigdreams

Convenient for the rich. Pay your fucking taxes... They get all the breaks.


chickenismurder

This motherfucker still thinks trickle down economics works. That or this is just a straight up ‘fuck you’ to the working class.


cturtl808

It's a straight fuck you.


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Hiciao

And the poor. God forbid we invest in them. We'd much rather pay exponentially more for their jail cell.


SeasonsGone

What if you are a non-white Republican?


Tomusina

If you think this is an own you are mistaken


MindlessSkies

Peter Thiel is gay and married. Some people are just outright sociopaths


BenTherDoneThat5555

Why instead of giving us tax cuts, doesn't he instead put that money into better school & teachers?? VOTE BLUE this November. No more RepubliCon rule.


Leevstar1

Since when is someone making 150k “rich”?


RogueThrax

About 12% of the population makes >$150k. When you make more money than 88% of your fellow citizens, that's pretty rich. 59% of the population makes less than half of $150k. So to them, it's probably rich. Rich is a relative and subjective term. The word itself just means "having great material wealth".


Shagyam

Considering when I was making 50k and I did pretty ok for my self, someone making 150k as a single filer is pretty well off. Sure you aren't buying a mansion and boats every day, but at 150k you would be able to buy a decent house, car and not have to worry about what you are spending. At least in Arizona.


RocinanteCoffee

In Arizona they are. That would be almost low income in the SF Bay Area or LA.


harryfan324

And that’s why certain people bought their tech money here working remotely.


RocinanteCoffee

Exactly. Additionally, AZ is so close to interesting states (California, Nevada, New Mexico, Colorado) and other places like Mexico that you could literally fly to your favorite cities nearby every weekend and enjoy the food and nightlife and freedoms they have there without paying the prices (California and parts of Colorado being the most expensive, although parts of New Mexico are up-and-coming on the expensive list).


harryfan324

That's why I moved here, I just bring my money here, phx have everything I need. My neighbors don't even know I make upper class money here which is lower class in places I moved from. It's too easy to buy a cheap condo here compared to where I from. I guess it fits for people like me who don't need the ocean and don't mind the heat but want a higher standard of living.


KyloRenSucks

The median household income in LA is 65k, and the average in SF is 119k. But with the CoA you're totally right, it's "low" income" even though making far more than the average person. The struggle is real lol. https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/losangelescitycalifornia,santamonicacitycalifornia,losangelescountycalifornia/BZA010220 https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/sanfranciscocitycalifornia https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/phoenixcityarizona/INC110220


Leevstar1

Arizona has the highest inflation in the country and skyrocketing cost of living/housing. 150k is nowhere near rich.


JudgeWhoOverrules

It's certainly not middle class though. Is upper class not synonymous with rich?


Leevstar1

I’d say 150k is middle class these days when adjusting for inflation and skyrocketing energy prices. Less than is lower middle class.


RocinanteCoffee

In my personal experience $150k in Phoenix is definitely "rich" in the casual definition. Doesn't go nearly as far in other major metropolitan areas in the US though.


JudgeWhoOverrules

Median HOUSEHOLD income in Phoenix area [last year was $75,731](https://censusreporter.org/profiles/31000US38060-phoenix-mesa-chandler-az-metro-area/). A single person making about double that is absolutely upper class. You need to readjust your expectations and look at data, because you might be living in a bubble.


drdelius

When it's 4-5 times the amount of our median income.


Robertsonland

I would say a single person making $150K is pretty well off in AZ. A family of 4 living on that is a different story so you have to look at how many people that taking care of here.


trashy615

When you learn how to properly budget and live within your means.


Shagyam

Pretty much this. I saw a tiktoker of someone making 120k as a model in Arizona and she was complaining about her financial struggles. Saying she is an adult and needs adult money. When in reality it's just managing your budget, and not instantly spending all the money you make.


dildobagginss

Someone making $150k a year isn't rich immediately, they can become rich with smart decisions, usually.


harryfan324

My first smart decision: move to AZ and buy a cheap condo right away and hide in plain sight where the regular middle class lives. No one knows I am upper class apparently according to the discussions here.


bovinemania

This will benefit me immensely but I wish the GOP would stop defunding the police, schools, and every other apparatus of organized society.


Grayscapejr

Yay capitalism


Rightonrbf

Paying less taxes is always nice.


Starfocus81613

Not really. It barely impacts most people that would benefit from it while giving the “desperate” rich another break. It’s disgusting. Not only that, it hurts the whole of society in the long run by reducing the budgets for the state, which disproportionately discriminates against people who may need services that that budget provides for and reduces budgets for social programs, infrastructure, and education, which everyone benefits from. How is this “nice”?


Hvarfa-Bragi

If you make $500k/yr, $8700 isn't going to be noticeable. It might pay a bit of your capital gains. a $4000 windfall for a $160k household would be helpful, and even $1300 for $55k earner is nothing to sneeze at. The rich won't notice this as much as lower incomes will.


EnOhVeHey

But the rich kids will still continue to go to private schools while the rest of us got to send our kids to the shittiest public schools in the nation. So sure my kids education will continue to be trash but hey we got $1300 to spend on tutors!!!


Starfocus81613

Check the 2021 tax tables (https://azdor.gov/file/12196/download?token=pm1w2bDX) vs the proposed flat tax rate of 2.5%, your math is clearly wrong on the amount saved per bracket (you seriously thought that 55k earners would get back 1.3k?.. That’d be GREAT if that were true): - 500k, married: [(500,000-333,684)*4.5%+12,574] - [500,000*2.5%] = 20,068.22 - 12,500 = *8,431.78* - 160k, married: [(160,000-111,229)*4.17%+3,298] - [160,000*2.5%] = 5,331.17 - 4,000 = *1,331.17* - 55k, married (under 55,219 for the minimum): [55,000 * 2.59%] - [55,000 * 2.5%] = 1,424.50 - 1,375 = *49.50* Now maybe you can see how fucking stupid this is and how arbitrarily it impacts lower incomes vs higher incomes. Sure, the rich won’t notice an extra 8k+ annually, so why are we giving them a tax break in the first place when that money can contribute to commonwealth services and programs?


RocinanteCoffee

Did you look at this? People at the poverty line will see maybe $25. This is something that is taking money away from schools, roads, water, infrastructure to give tens of thousands in reprieve to the highest earners in the state.


Newfrus

I’m excited about a relatively low flat tax. Having lived in a state with a 3.07% flat state income tax and a 1.7% flat borough tax, I am more than willing to pay this, and believe it will simplify tax calculations.


harryfan324

Same, major reason why I moved here, reasonable taxes much better than any blue states.


Newfrus

I know! We’re trying to move to PA, and the taxes are so much higher, except auto registration.


harryfan324

Can’t wait for the flat tax next year, this place is doing this for a reason: to attract the drones of Californians like me who can take our salaries there to here but pay a much lower tax rate, as long as we can endure the heat, think of it like a reverse weather tax.


dldugan14

FFS


TheFireOfPrometheus

Do people still think raising minimum wage was a good idea? And is inflation, and this change, predictable? The middle class is constantly getting shafted from both ends


Puzzleheaded-Will249

AZ racing for the bottom and we will get there too.


ToxicSigma0

You guys here are really butthurt, but the rich pay more in taxes than all of us. It's because people make so much money that taxing is even effective in the first place. Like what road do you think Timothy and his $1000 in taxes is gonna pave? Also y'all act like the rich don't have their own problems. For this scenario, I'm going to say 150k a year is rich because the leader of the federal reserve makes 200, act like the rich aren't dealing with inflation, more expensive feed = more expensive livestock, who do you think feeds you, it's damn sure not your political leaders in your cities. AOC spent 180k on a dress but you're right, it's Republicans who don't understand how to spend money. The problem is you guys are so intent on suckling the nip of your government (disgusting statists following their racist, brown people-bombing government) that you don't realize that private business, is far more effective at solving problems than a large, overly cumbersome government. Case in point Elon vs NASA. Or how the military, frequently gives out contracts to private businesses with more capital for specific goals. I get tired of hearing people complain. I make 40k a year and I'm ECSTATIC, that there's a possibility I could learn a skill and change my entire family's history and make 150 and up. I'm supposed to be mad at people being successful? Like go get a better job lmfao, learn how to invest, and stop being such an ethical dirt bag that you're crapping on personal success at the expense of what's good for the many. I'd rather buckle down and earn my way than vote to steal money from anybody else.


Outrageous-Peace8292

Time to move to Arizona!!!


harryfan324

Already did, you have to like the heat, other than that, the rich suburbs are where it’s at.