Theorycrafting PoE used to feel more like building a deck in Magic the Gathering, you have all these pieces from throughout the years and it was fun figuring out ways to make them work together. At least in kitchen table formats, or something like Commander. Now it feels closer to trying to make a deck for competitive play in standard format, tons of pieces just aren't an option. There is a pretty well defined meta, with only a few options for flexibility. (Compared to what we used to have anyways) Maybe closer to vintage, because you can still make some jank work if you have the money to drop on power.


Because the additions PoE has gotten especially when it comes to items arent really build enabling but rather simple powercreep. So instead of giving us real options to swap pieces or build around them you are more resticted as a lot of that power is required for engame progress. Jewels are still my go to example. Every build uses watchers eyes and cluste jewels. They restrict the potential skill points and jewel slots, yet are not really build enabling. Sure with only normal jewels the decision was jewel slot or other passive clusters but the decision now even though you have 1000 items to slot isnt much more deep but added such a high layer of rng and complexity to it.


It's the problem with moving so much power to rare gear. Rare gear is just stats. Life, resists, suppress, and whatever damage vectors your build has available like pen, multi, +level. Rare gear isn't interesting. It's just hard to acquire. The process of acquiring it can be interesting, for some players, but that doesn't make the gear itself interesting.


This is the best comment I’ve read in awhile regarding the state of poe. “Rare gear isn’t interesting. It’s just hard to acquire”. Put this in a shirt and sell it, Jesus. Nailed it.


> Rare gear isn't interesting. It's just hard to acquire. That sums up so many problems I have with the current state of the game.


That's because PoE players don't want to hear it, but rare gear is no different at this point then Ancients and Primal Ancients in Diablo 3.


It is actually, instead of a linear path to the power, all you have is a semi- deterministic casino!!! p.s. I'm not intending to make Diablo 3 look good in any way, I hate their character stats, and Diablo 4 is looking even worse.


How does it look worse? I didn't keep up, but my expectations are very low.


I think they could reconsider how uniques work with regard to modification... some interesting but totally outclassed uniques could be made competitive if some limited crafting on them was allowed. For a start they could allow eldritch currency to apply to uniques. Also, they could potentially drop with some number of additional unoccupied prefix/suffix slots to allow for a bench craft to be added. Or perhaps a new currency could be added which converts Uniques into Rares, with a chance to keep, remove or fracture each of it's existing unique modifiers.


I remember Chris saying in a manifesto long ago that red maps "should be rare, and rarely done". I think this philosophy--and the current level of difficulty--work quite well under the pre-Atlas system where high tier maps are a stretch goal and good items aren't exclusively attainable from them. But now, tons of cool content is gated behind your build being able to handle the highest level of damage. For me, the game would feel a lot better if Shaper, Elder, Sirus and the other rogues gallery were, at base, T7 or so damage, and there were multiple higher tiers of bosses for those who wanted the greatest challenge.


Back when he said that, there were no conquerors, no Uber Elder, no Maven, no invitations, no blight raveged map, no deep delving. T16 maps run with 4 chisels and an alch/binding are the base endgame now. And it's been that way since...legion? Longer?


Got it. Added 10 new tiers of maps beyond t16. Ubers are now level 95.


Higher level zones? They would never make leveling to 100 that much less tedious.


IDK man, their ideal vision for a game D2R just made level 99 zones in a recent patch. We might follow soon.


The issue is the one D3 had on launch. Difficulty scales far harder and faster than the tools to deal with that content. Asking folks to farm T7 maps to be able to get the gear to clear the Atlas to get the rest of their Atlas passives would be a massive step backward. Especially for the large portion of the player base who are very used to farming red maps in precious leagues with nowhere near the hoops. They engineered the fun out of the game. I’m spending my time on roguelikes since 3.17, because they may be shallower but they give me a far higher return on fun per minute spent engaging.


I finally broke my "don't spend money on unfinished games" rule and bought Last Epoch. It isn't PoE, but it's been steadily improving whereas PoE has been eroding. I imagine the point at which they intersect is coming in the next year or two. I had *fun* in 3.13 and 3.17. A LOT of fun. I had some fun in 3.18, and mostly just frustration in 3.19.


What's wrong with farming lower maps to gear up before moving up to high tiers? That's how I've been playing since the game came out. The game severely punishes you for being underprepared, and that should be seen as a good thing. Rushing red maps at 2k life should not be the baseline level of power players expect.


I always enjoyed being able to do elder/elder guardians are white/yellow maps, not just as endgame content.


>red maps "should be rare, and rarely done" i dont think this has been their philosophy ever since conquerors of the atlas came out. if they are offering the ability to bump the tier of all maps up to t16, that suggests they expect people to be able to consistently chain them. and ever since conquerors, red map sustain has been significantly easier. i dont think they still believe that statement, the game has changed a lot since


That's a good ass analogy


Yup and there are two cards that have 4 copies each in more than half of decks right now because without them you just kinda lose. The cards aren't fun either, they just make you lose less often and do nothing else.


Brilliant analogy! I would only add to it that there is a massive time investment in PoE that while Magic has some time investment, it's easier to switch decks than it is to switch builds in PoE.


Nah this is pioneer man. Lots of very specific pieces, that are missing legacy components that would make them viable.


Nah this is pioneer man. Lots of very specific pieces, that are missing legacy components that would make them viable. Lots no of pieces getting targeted and removed from the format by the balance team too. The absolute worst format in magic.


Hit the nail on the head


I wouldn't go as far to say as not worth playing, but as a player who tries to avoid being a "slave to the meta", I am finding it more and more difficult, if not impossible to play off-meta builds. I don't have the time to dedicate to understanding all the intricacies of the game, but I used to at least to be able to make my own builds that could high end map and kill end game bosses. Now I don't even dare risk it and simply follow a guide, as I know from sentinel, if I start with a trash build I'll just end up quitting early. Nothing more demoralising than spending time trying to make a build using an off meta skill and getting shit on when you reach maps.


Back in the day i feel like the only problem you had to solve was damage. Now its phys dmg, ele dmg, chaos damage (theres a lot more of it now), spell suppress, good armor, recovery, stun immunity, ailment immunity. Theres no wiggle room for hipster builds


TBH, you always had to deal with physical damage. It was the number 1 killer of people. People just tended to ignore it with higher hp/es numbers with a granite of ironskin and call it a day. SC just took the death and bitched about how OP porcupines were. Now 75% resists isn't good enough to get by in normal mapping. (never was for juiced content) You need physical mitigation and you need at least 50% chaos resist preferably 75+ on top of ailment immunity and either suppression or ehp on block.




Well armor back in those days was also complete and utter ass so you didn’t have all that many low investment options to mitigate phys damage


Slap fortify on your movement skill, use a taste of hate, cwdt immortal call and you were pretty much good to go on phys. 2 of those are basically free, the other was 30c and they worked on almost all builds. Edit: For SC at least.


You could also use a Basalt Flask for a 15% reduction that was reliably up while mapping.


“RIP old basalt flask” -everyone except replica dreamfeather players


CWDT-IC was on literally every build dude And fortify for anyone not using a bow


Armour was fine at what it did. If you had 10k armour your deaths went down by a lot. Mobs were dealing at least 30% less damage as well, so even though the armour formula was literally half as efficient, armour itself was still fine. Not amazing, but you definitely noticed when you had none vs a little vs a lot of armour.


My deaths in the league I first got to red maps was like 120 I had 4.5k hp maybe 5k armour, no defensive flasks and 75/75/75/-60. This league I have double the deaths at 3.2klife/2.3k es. 100% SS, 75/75/75/76. Corrupted immunity, bleeding immunity, one step ahead, overleach on es, 40k evasion, grace, malevolence, ghost shroud, 30% reduced crit damage, temp chains on hit. Es gained on hit. I have the headhunter gem, so I’ve often got random other defensive layers too. I have so many defensive layers I don’t have room for damage. I’ve never had half the defensives I have this league and my deaths still increase every league. As a soft core player, the first thing I look at in a POB is defensive layers. That’s pretty fucked. Edit: because apparently there are so many layers I can’t remember them all. I also have a level 5 CWDT set up with immortal call (and a boatload of inc duration), as well as wind dancer. Edit 2: to the people who keep suggesting shit like dread banner, defiance, determination. I already have a 30% reservation shield with my auras, 2 reservation clusters (the third notable is annointed), reservation on my helmet AND implicit. And I have 6% unreserved mana. Stop suggesting *more auras* even if I wanted them and had the gem sockets for them you simply cannot jam 9 auras into a build without being LL. These are tone deaf replies.


That’s almost amazing.


Just go LL 5 head. On a more serious note, yeah shit hits a bit too hard right now. I’ve thought about armor stacking transcendence PF. But the amount of degens are stupid. Ailments you can avoid and even burning ground. But the cold degens are way too much. Can we stop with the all the Ben and jerry flavors of volatile dead? I’m tired of every other pack having to wait to pick up a chaos orb to not be 1 shot by them.


It isn’t even hard…. It’s just randomly spiked with damage, and requires excessive gearing. There isn’t any “challenge”. You simply must stay in low tier or maybe yellows getting less than a quarter of the loot until you’re exceedingly overgeared. It isn’t challenging at all you simply have to choose between dying a lot or excessive tedium in the gearing stage. It’s just the absolute worst state for everyone except the very top end players who have only seen a minor inconvenience.


But you also need IIQ and IIR to actually get loot to afford your build.


Lol, not at all. You just need to have to have an actual farm strategy that yields money. I've seen people complain that their build that focuses entirely on alva and abyss isn't making them money, and they aren't selling or running their temples. I've personally run at least a dozen different builds that yield 3d+/hr, and most aren't even complicated.


Back then, all you needed for phys was immortal call and CWDT, and maybe even an enduring cry on left click or also on CWDT depending how "back" you want to go.


True, but people still ran granite of iron skin. It was still very strong. Back when flasks gave 10 max resists. Or 13 if you were anywhere near witch. I think they were 10k back then or 20 with iron skin and no scaling.


That doesn't even seem that hard to obtain? And I was -10 chaos res until after 100 divines into the league without any significant amount of deaths from chaos damage.


Your list is too short, you also need: Freeze immunity, grasping vines immunity, freezing vines immunity, extremely cold vines immunity, vanity vines immunity, slippery vines immunity.


hentai tentacle immunity


Ohh now i get it. Thats why my raider moaning.


but why would you want to solve that?


I don't want to be immune to the tentacles onichan




Depending on your goals, that's optional.


There's a reason no builds stack this resist ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)


I was literally talking with a friend last night about how fucking tedious the game is with all of the slows. You can have hinder, maim, chill, grasping vines, and slow patches on the ground all in one map. Obviously there are ways to mitigate CC, but it's kind of nuts.


Yea need too many immunities compared to year ago so even less points for offense. Game is in not a great state as getting to comfortable QoL is longer every season.


There are at least a dozen other types of "snare, but with a different name" immunity you forgot.


Almost all of it is not mandatory but I dunno who in GGG though that adding permafrost AN mob is a good idea. You are literally permanently stunned unless you have frost immunity. No problem when you have already finished char but while leveling it can ruin your day.


While not mandatory, QoL sucks when there are 20 different slows and damaging ailments and you cannot mitigate most of them.


Exactly. And on top of that your items can't have life and resists on them. They also need influenced modifiers and suppress and max resists and damage to be useful. You can't just pop a few uniques and go, you must go for broken rares.


Curse immunity... which used to come from 1 flask mod


The chaos damage is the worst. It felt balanced when you rarely got chaos mobs, so if you didn't cap it you got the occasional chunk here and there but nothing too bad. But now it's fucking everywhere with archnemesis.


kinda true, back in breach leag i played a int stacking howa ST build. 10k ES and thats it, 0 armour 0 dodge and no block, just 10k ES and i was invincible. insta leech was fun tho...


Pretty much same for me. I league started a trickster LC in ssf. And by the time you get to reds, it's pretty bad until you obtain a couple of the uniques to increase your shock % on mobs. Then I tried trickster poison SST, was pretty good tbh, but hated SST play-style. Then currently doing a ice trapper ignite ele, and it's probably the strongest of the tree. But I've already burnt myself out this league due to how boring the league mechanic is and not enjoying my first two builds.


I've been doing my own thing since closed beta, and I've had successes and failures for sure. A league's is "Fun" to me when I end up making a build that feels good (defensively or offensively), not because of the league design itself. Most leagues try to kill the player by being over-tuned anyways. (Except for Harvest which allowed us to truly work out interesting gear.) There are many build ideas I avoid doing now, because I know it's going to be painful. I certainly wish I could take more risks with weird builds, but like you said, time is not infinite :P


the risk reward ratio for making your own builds is completely out of line. And that's WITH Path Of Building. Imagine if the community didn't have that? Running acts over and over only to find out the build wont scale well after yellow maps or something.


Yep, this is it for me too. I was trying to make a build with the Rive claw recently, and like yeah I tried all the melee claw skills and they were all so much worse compared to Spectral Helix. Even Puncture which is supposed to be a bleed skill sucks compared to Spectral Helix. Many of the fun skills are so underwhelming right now and it's not worth playing.


There is nothing more demoralizing in this game then having a failed build and not enough currency or knowledge or time to get into something else better. I’ve quit many leagues early due to it and have accepted that it’s just better to stick to what is known to be working and while expensive, play the meta


>Nothing more demoralising than spending time trying to make a build using an off meta skill and getting shit on when you reach maps. You'd think that a titan company like ggg who created one of the best arpgs in history would know that. It just baffles me how they shorten build diversity one way or another every passing league. I've been playing this grim dawn mod (reign of terror, basically a diablo 2 remaster mod) for **two years** now with small breaks and I haven't gotten bored of it yet because there are so many viable builds you can make. Grim dawn doesn't even have multiplayer and the mod is just that good.


It's hard to compare PoE to other ARPGs, because PoE just moves so much faster than other ARPGs. In a game like Grim Dawn, your main goal is "Can I do this?" rather than "Can I do this consistently extremely quickly?". You generally don't even notice the difference between 4:20 crucibles vs 5:00+ crucibles. It's a much more relaxed pace game. In PoE, you tend to look at the speed. AN rares are stronger than rares were before, so the threshold for killing them in under 2 seconds has increased, and it's hard for people to adjust to the reduced speed. The build balance is just so different, because players choose such different offense/defense ratios. If you go through your map slower, you'll notice a huge a difference in your own survivability from just running through packs. Playstyle just matters way more when it's a high speed ARPG.


But Grim Dawn does have multiplayer. I played the whole game with a friend. We didn't use mods though.


Yeah, I mean no support for mass multiplayer (servers), so no economy.


I was trying two of them last league (that was my first league), while still following some player build and it backfired on me on a wall to content, that I couldnt slip through because passing it required too heavy currency investment, that I couldnt earn quickly enough. This league - Ive made RF Inq, LS Raider and LC Elementalist and Im having a great time, but the problem is bothering me too.


I think it's a problem mostly of absolutely needing so much defense. Used to be that you could make a lot of builds work because they didn't need, 5k+ HP+ determination/grace/defiance banner + 80+ max all res + spell suppression+ some powerful life recovery mech+ high mobility+ a bunch of chaos res, etc to actually survive in alched tier 16s, nevermind to do end game bosses.


Just started a decay build that's pretty fun so far, abusing some storm burst interaction, pretty off meta


Yeah, this is definitely it. I'm really enjoying Galvanic Arc, but I usually try to find something a little more off-meta...


Here are 3 off meta builds I played to 90+ on HC: Mana ice nova https://poe.ninja/challengehc/builds/char/kaptn_games/_Kaptn_Sp%C3%A9ci_?i=0&search=name%3DKap Mana light conduit https://poe.ninja/challengehc/builds/char/kaptn_games/_Kaptn_Hapci_?i=1&search=name%3DKap Divine ire ignite https://poe.ninja/challengehc/builds/char/kaptn_games/_Kaptn_Taken_?i=2&search=name%3DKap All three cheap, off meta and very tanky.


Funnily enough, even people like Ben and other streamers will admit they often don't play builds they were brainstorming for fun because they don't tick the checkboxes anymore. Captain Lance said it on the last baeclast too. So it's not any wonder that even the streamers stopped playing. They might be good, but not even them enjoy having the power floor lowered and lowered and lowered and the hoops you have to go through to reach the ceiling increased and increased and increased.


part of the fun of poe was trying lots of different builds, now every decent build feels the same, so you get bored much much quicker.


I remember when I found a pathfinder build I liked and actually had defenses that you could make your character grow into. Then suddenly next league they gutted 4 of the 7 defensive layers and the build was not good after that.


I can relate in a major way. My favorite part of the game is designing my own janky builds. The reality of current PoE is that, unless you are content to farm content below t16, the amount of mandatory defenses and damage you need on a character makes 95% of the build archetypes, that used to work, completely non-viable. The game is being balanced around the assumption that everyone is playing a top meta build that they are copying from an expert. In that context, it makes some sense as to why they keep moving power out of support gems and the skill tree and further and further into gear -- you can't copy gear. It just makes me sad, because part of why the league cycle worked for me, is that I didn't mind losing all my gear every few months because I had gained new knowledge of the game, so next time I could be even more efficient and clever. Now they have scrapped half of that game knowledge and made understanding the game less and less relevant to player power. Now, more than ever, it's about wealth. And wealth, more than anything, is a combination of how much time you are willing/able to play, how degenerate of gameplay you enjoy and how much stock-market-simulator you are interested in engaging with. And it feels to me like a large part of the community has embraced this version of the game, and they like making "being good at PoE" synonymous with "know how to make money in PoE," but for me, it's mostly ruined the game.


yeah if you want to 'play the game the right way' you are probably incentivized to rush endless heist first day, get 50c or so, then just start flipping currency for a couple days. at that point you can pick whatever the most meta build is and go ham


I am a new player to PoE and I really enjoyed the systems of the game, but everywhere I go the game is about how to make the most money, the best secret unknown way to make most divines per hour, not optimizing your build for currency making is playing the game wrongly. I really don't enjoy playing with this mindset, but that is how trade is going to be from how I can see it. The game seems to be balanced around trade in terms of interesting build mechanics, and if you don't keep up with generating money, the inflation in the trade scene will out price all viable upgrades for you after a certain point. I come to the game to unwind and have fun, not to jump from one rat race to another. At this point 1 month into the game, the idea of playing just SSF is more and more appealing. To me, it always feel like a cursed game design problem if you want to balance power trading in a game, tilt too much to one side and you end up changing the feel of the game. At least, that is what I feel right now as a new player, maybe my mind will change after playing more in trade league.


I'm annoyed how sloppy GGG was in their last balance pass (well actually they do it all the time). For example it takes a lot of doggedness to play any other attack skill when LS and Helix just sit there and taunt you with twice the damage ... And they had SO MUCH TIME


What bothers me here is how crystal clear the imbalance is. Lightning strike and spectral helix both have the benefit of being able to hit a target multiple times. Meanwhile, a skill like frost blades does less base damage **and** can only hit once per skill use.


Problem : other melee skills feel underwhelming compared to the power of lightning strike and spectral helix. Solution : giganerf those two skills so they feel more in line with all the other melee skills, in the graveyard. In addition to these impactful changes, cleave gets +1 to radius at gem lvl 21. Show details : get fkd nerds


This doesn't take into account one thing: god spectral helix feels like shit to play. If you're looking to megaoptimize your DPS, sure, it's good, but fucking hell does it feel awful


All these complaints will only get LS and helix gutted


This isn't really a good attitude for communication but I get it. We shouldn't have to worry about all the best skills being made as bad as the bad skills. We should be wanting to make the bad skills as good as the good skills.


I get it, but that's the pattern ggg have created


Sadly I agree with that


Exactly. It’s almost a meme at this point that if you find an OP build/interaction/whatever, don’t post it on Reddit because it will 100% get giganerfed. It’s feels shitty. It feels like you’re actually punished for sharing interesting information with the community.


That’s not the GGG way though, they have a set method of attacking balance and it’s to drag everything down to try and find the level, rather than lifting things up to elevate the weaker skills


This has been screamed from the mountaintops for years now and GGG never learns. They'd rather make everything shit tier instead of having a bunch of great skills that are FUN to play.


They are so terrified of players feeling strong.


Why we shouldn’t be worried? Seismic trap was nerfed, were other traps buffed? Corpse skills were nerfed, what for buffed sir? I haven’t been playing POE for a long time but the same goes to toxic rain as well. Back then people were saying nerfing was healthy for the game. Fk them. I played the game for several leagues and all the skill I used were nerfed, and I never see anything got buffed to the same degree. It’s not fun! You ask for buffing skills, sure, then you got cleave range buff. You ask for nerf, yea all good skills like seismic trap or DD for nerfed to dead. Don’t you see a problem here?


I'm referring to the attitude of "don't talk about it or it will get nerfed." I'm clearly also frustrated at skill balance in this game. That said, jumping immediately to negativity or aggression just means you WON'T be listened to, period. Nobody will want to hear your opinion when its partially an insult.


I was just thinking on the ride to work today.... if they tripled traditional melee damage, would people play it? And then I thought about bosses like Maven/Uber bosses and all the other newer ones where sitting still (or close) and doing damage just isn't an option. They seriously need to focus more on damage uptime and not burst when they balance these skills. There's a reason all these "melee-lite" skills involve projectiles.


And then Smite will reign supreme.


The problem isn't LS, the problem is nightblade support. LS gets gutted, another skill will just replace it with nightblade support.


I think its both. In the example I picked frost blades, which can also benefit from nightblade. My issue is the base numbers are so wildly far apart that it seems weird to consider skills balanced from the absolute beginning. Edit: this isn't specifically about LS/Helix either. Ill bet there are other examples of skills that are thematically similar but wildly off on base damage due to mechanics.


They will have had a year by the end of this league. Majority of those skills (particularly melee) have been in the dumps since 3.15. And Chris had to be "surprised" by the melee question during Q&A for this league.


Is that true? On POB I see no one saying that in the lightning strike guide


Context for my opinion: we're a month into the league, I played a pretty good amount, did pretty much everything I wanted to, 38 challenges done, etc. I think the main problem is that the progression/difficulty curve is bad now, especially the early-mid part of it. Over time, more and more character power is moved from tree/ascendancy to gear. Additionally, many leagues introduce some new axis or method to scale character power (even if it's a relatively small amount, like Catalysts) while accompanying patches gradually remove it from "vanilla" characters that haven't acquired or used that axis yet. So a late progression build, relative to the content, is as strong as it ever was, but early (especially if off meta) to mid can be *rough*. I think this is part of why Archnemesis, for example, snuck up on everyone, apparently including GGG, as much as it did. Late in Sentinel, most people were at a late stage in their builds and at that point you just out scale almost all AN monsters, in most cases even ones that are especially problematic for your build. But you start a new league from zero and for builds that aren't great early or take a long time or a key unique to come together, and it's a lot of spam dying. I definitely don't want to go back to the days of 32 watchstones or anything, but how fast you can tear through to top tier maps now doesn't help. Play hard the first day of the league and you're in red maps at a point where Maven/Exarch/Eater mechanics are demanding T14+ maps, but your off-meta or late bloomer build can't really do them, yet. Or maybe it can do them with the "I paid for 6 portals and I'm going to use 6 portals" ethic but that doesn't feel great, either. I think the main failure of 3.19, such as it is, is that the progression curve has finally bent to a point where too many people quit in frustration before they ever got over that hump. The league mechanic didn't do it any favors with its (especially early) high level of difficulty and low level of return relative to mapping, just one more reminder that your build (at that point) just could not handle the content it seemed like you "should" be doing.


There's a bunch of builds I want to try but I can never get them to do enough damage in PoB without sacrificing too much defense or having it cost too much currency On top of having to slog through the campaign again... Wish there was something like adventure mode from Diablo


>or having it cost too much currency This is the main thing for me. There's loads of excellent, fun builds that you can play! ...If you can invest 50+ divines into even mediocre builds, that is. If you have a more modest budget, you're going to have a bad time.


I ran reap jugg on a whim, started exsanguinate for early mapping speed. I'm like 6 divines deep and manhandling very juiced t16s. Maybe reap is just tuned we'll, but at 1% build utilization it's far from meta.




The campaign is what kills me. I'm getting back into it for the first time in like 8 months and I'm really struggling because the campaign is just so slow especially when you don't know the ideal pathing or map layouts


I absolutely agree. I'd love for there to be some form of option to massively speed up the early leveling progress if you've already done it once.


For me it's the other way around, I ways want to try some builds after my starter but never want to play the leveling experience more than once or twice a league.


I remember 3 notable cluster jewels being reasonable to roll with alterations and regal.


It still upsets me that you can't reroll the enchantment portion of those.


Kinda. I don't want to play the same LS, TS, RF, EA Ballista, CoC FR, CoC Ice Spear from the last almost year. Neither do I want to play an extremely complex build that's reliant on a few unobtainable fringe uniques to even begin being playable. Or having to get a degree in PoB micromanagement to then have to invest multiple mirrors for a chance of it working.


That's pretty much exactly how I feel about the state of the game right now. I want so desperately to play, but I just know that if I pick up and play any build that I want to play, I foresee nothing but an absolute slog through garbage just to get that build to a playable state that doesn't keel over to an unfortunate lottery of AN mods, all because I didn't satisfy the growing list of requirements to make your build "not suck." I really don't mind replaying the campaign and going through those measures, but I just can't stand ***fearing that I'm wasting my time*** playing something that's inferior to a meta build by a huge factor.


Yer thats partly my issue too. The difference between a meta build and an avarage build is GIGANTIC. So even if the avarage build isnt too bad, your handicapped for not playing the meta build. And the worse thing is the game over the last year or so has been balanced around the meta builds / high end skilled players.


i dont like the extremely unbalanced aspect of POE lately. Why do some builds pump out 100m DPS while others struggled to reach 5? Makes no sense.


There are alot of fun builds tat i would like to try... problem is casuals will never have enough currency to fund these builds...


I normally get to 85-90, then it gets to where I need to really invest in a build. You know what I do instead? Make a new build. I can't be bothered pumping 50+ exalts/divines into a build(which might be all I make in a League if I'm being generous) when I can have more fun in less time by playing 2-3 other builds for the same price


This is why harvest was so much fun, everyone could play any build they wanted to. Everything was craftable by anyone.


I'm an average casual player myself and been playing this game on and off. Barely scraping by T16 maps, and I still don't know how on earth they rake up hundreds of divine.... I barely got 3 divine invested (probably) and sometimes I'm dead by some random leaping monster and hit me a couple of times. Feeling so frustrated, it's not even a boss...


I just wish I knew how to build defences. Like 400h in I still walk around like an headless chicken randomly dying.


Two things: 1) Layers 2) Scaling said layers An example of a very simple layer is the common Determination + Grace combination. What it essentially does, in concept, is simple: you space out hits and when you do get hit it gets mitigated. Grace alone would leave you vulnerable to one shots, and Determination would mean smaller hits but you’d still go down. Another example is Grace + Ghost Shrouds. So now you have Grace and when you do get hit the Ghost Shroud saves you. Or Determination + Divine Shield or a form of regeneration. You mitigate the hits, you get hit often, but you also get topped off. Arctic Armour or Fortify are accessories to the above. Now scaling is what most people fail to do. PoE is a game of multipliers; specifically ‘Increased’ and ‘More’, as well as the base thing you are trying to scale. In the case of Evasion, as an example, what you want to do is this: Get a chest armour that has 2-3k evasion. Path around the tree and get at least 100% increased from various sources. Slap on Grace, which gives you more base plus the ‘More’ multiplier. The rest of your slots will act as a supplement. 200 evasion there, 150 here and so on. Do that and you’ll sit at 30ish thousand Evasion without a flask. Now your Ghost Shrouds will recover a substantial amount of energy shield and you’ll also sit at a relatively comfortable 80ish chance to avoid hits. In theory this is great. Now if GGG stopped balancing around 17 layers that all scale to oblivion we would actually stay alive. So, if the above look familiar to you, you do them, but still die, just know that it’s not your fault but the game’s. Hope this helped a bit.


It does help thks. I underestimate evasion


Evasion also helps you build suppression, which I would argue is one of the most important defensive layers in current poe. Evasion itself isn't super strong, but building evasion is synergistic in the current game with having well balanced defenses. I league launched a non grace build for example and felt just fine after I hit suppression cap.


Yes, but am I supposed to deal damage after all this?


I mean, 400h is still just scratching the surface/"noob" territory for PoE, so what you're saying is pretty normal. I wouldn't expect someone who has only played 400h of PoE to be able to make a decent build themselves.


Defence in POE is made out of 3 aspects How much you can ignore How much you can take and how much you can recover Sadly, the game took an absurd turn, where recovery is disregarded, and now it's only how much you can ignore and take before killing an enemy, throwing the entire system into a bin, unless you use something absurd like Aegis Aurora.


poe.ninja Go to builds Check HC or SSF HC Filter Level 92+ Check their defense


The thing is, if you lack checkboxes, you are guaranteed to find a rare that is going to instantly kill you and brick your build. And the other thing is you can go tanky but you also need a shit ton of damage now for normal mapping because of AN. Path of ground degens means you need +max resists to not be considered glass cannon. Fun is gone from build creation, most of the time you need to find some convoluted interaction to be immune to most shit to be able to play and there is still a chance some random AN combo will nulify your entire build.


Hahaha I spent 200 divines on a min max EA ele build, and I told my discord… “all of this investment and I look at my chaos res and just KNOW I’m going to die in maps”. Grace, determination, and spell suppress capped and my build is hamstrung by low chaos res. I feel like that just shouldn’t happen. This game was far more fun when it didn’t require: - determination - grace and/or spell suppression - max res - phys taken as ele - divine shield or ghost shrouds - ailment immunity - enough damage to one shot everything in maps because anything less gets you killed, limiting viable skills even further. Etc etc. I know I’m missing something.


Yeah defense revamp was fine and all but imo, spell suppression and ez ailment immunity from purity of elements made the game worse. Because it allowed ggg to put even more damage and alternate ailment so they are now just an extra checkbox and not a luxury you can afford to skip.


As a rule of thumb, anytime GGG has "given us tools to deal with a problem", it's because that problem has become utterly mandatory to deal with.


The problem is that the defenses revamp wasn’t really fine because what GGG always does is whenever they give us something, they nerf something to compensate. In this case, we got more defensive options, but monster speed and damage also went way up. So what this does is rather than give us new options to explore which would open up new builds to play, those options become the new mandatory baseline because they’re needed to deal with the new level of monster power. That kills diversity because now we need to find ways to shoehorn those new things into every build or they just won’t work. Can’t get 100% spell suppression? Have fun dying to goat/skelly mages, Eater tentacle miscreations, and the constant barrage of on-death spell effects. Doesn’t matter if you have 8k life, they’ll still chunk you. GGG needs to stop doing that. It isn’t a buff if they raise the floor as well. It puts us in the exact same place, except with more things we need to spend our already stretched too thin points on.


Exactly. You’re now either immune to everything, or you’re not and you die. It’s why RF inquis is so good


what boggles my mind is players like yourself, who can make 200 divines in a dead league and say the game isnt fun anymore. I would love to make 200 divines a month into league, and have a blast doing it, but here I am struggling to sell essences doing white t1 maps with 200c in my stash. Maybe I should just play heist, or maybe I should delve. Not sure. But those are my 2 least favorite league mechanics. And if am forced to play those mechanics just to make currency then yeah the game would get boring really fast.


All those posts about div/hour aren't from the average player I guess.




The problem is that hell broke loose in PoE and the difficult content that people choose to interact with and build a character to deal with in the past, is now roaming free on every map. Not saying that the game should be a breeze, but the middle ground is now gone. And if you manage to make a build that deals with mapping and bossing (not uber) and you also enjoy, just the thought of rerolling and trying something new makes you give up on the game. Unless you have 8 hours a day free time to test and fail.


This always happened in PoE. When betrayal intervention was added to core, many people were complaining about unavoidable difficulty spikes without choosing to opt-in. ​ What really got changed is that bossing is nearly mandatory nowadays as it ties in with endgame questline and atlas progression. A few years back the base bossing was optional content on top. Now this optional content on top power crept into uber bosses and regular endgame bosses are part of regular game, and this renders poor single target mapping builds and many junk builds as struggle builds.


> When betrayal intervention was added to core, many people were complaining about unavoidable difficulty spikes without choosing to opt-in. To be a little fair, not everyone but a lot of people also had an issue (later fixed, but present for a lot of Synthesis league) where they would lag/freeze a solid ~20-30 seconds whenever an Intervention started.


Yeaaah, I honestly can't be fucked to make more than one build with 10m+ spdps and like 100k ehp just to be able to map without trouble.


I put roughly 150d into my phys. zombie build. The zombies are 40k hp and 90% all ele. res. through new shield, 75% chaos res., life regen & leech, 15% DR from new ring and they still die in ubers, I can only clear by spamming portals and resummoning my stuff between attempts. Just terrible balancing by ggg regarding zombies and spectres. My only upgrades left are aw. empower 5 and t16 kalandra amulet with +3 zombie +3 all skills (not possible to reflect using ethereal mist apperently), both of which I have 0 desire to grind for. The build is otherwise very decent in maps compared to most summoners due to Mon'tregul explosions, despite being bugged. e: https://pobb.in/u/hatefker/N8-hlz7EgJIn


Wow, dude, that's look awesome


I've felt like this largely since the support gem nerf. I could always make a build work with the old support gems to atleast clear red maps. Now I feel pidgeon holed into a few choice that I either don't enjoy or I've played a few times and don't like them enough to play again. If the game continues this way I won't likely keep dragging myself back league after league. If I skip a few leagues I don't even know if I come back for POE 2.


for me the major issue is trying to play off-meta skills. I plug them into PoB and try to make a realistic tree with defenses and sometimes can barely scrape 1 mil dps on budget gear. Especially bottom of the tree/melee skills, they are just awful. And making builds right now is ticking like 5 boxes of defenses first, like armor/evasion, spell supp/spell block, max res, need chaos res, ailment immune/avoid or at least chill and freeze immune etc


Sounds like all my builds \^^' One thing that makes things worse with these builds is the new Maven/eldritch atlas. At least with the conquerors & Sirus, I could farm in low reds comfortably with my home brew builds and do A4 Sirus. I could drop an awakened gem. Less often than A8, sure, but I could engage with late game content and enjoy it at my level. Now? You get two small boss encounters ONCE. Then it's gone, no Maven invitations, no eldritch altars until you're in T14. T1 to T13 has become a content "plateau", there's nothing a T13 you can't do at T1. I think this exacerbates the issues with archnemesis, off meta skills and build progression in general, you won't feel good about playing a build if it can't do T14+. I hope it changes next league.


"I just wish the game was balanced around having fun, not Ben doing the ubers in 4 days in HC or people in SC getting a bajilion divines an hour, there are just no fun builds left for me anymore." Basically this... they are treating this game balancing like its chess or an e-sport, but ppl just want to have fun.


The thing about Esports is that they are fun to watch but terrible to participate long term in. At the end of the day playing in such a manner is about efficiency and not fun. The base game should always be designed around fun, and never around speed speed speed.


I try to make whatever build I think I have enough gear/drops for in SSF. I have a Tavukai for SRS, so that's next on the list as well as a +1 helm w/ an open prefix for life and resists and a helm w/ skitterbot reservation.


1. Not many skills buffed this league so still same meta for last 9 months 2. Crafting nerfs makes non-meta builds that much harder to get going 3. League not fun is another de-motivating factor


I still make janky off meta builds but simply stop progressing when I hit the guardians. It's sad the game became this, but I adapt


I have made like 9 builds.... last one trying to put together cwdt build with some kind of twist. Broke so hard to get the items. Every single piece is atleast 1div or more


I was thinking of doing this too until I saw each component to make the build functional adds up to 15 div or more. There are so many moving parts in the build, and you need to reach a specific threshold or else the build does not function. Soooo that's that for me, unless I can somehow magically theorycraft some cheap build that a streamer hasn't yet touched and now magically makes it 20 divs to make functional. I'm close to the point where I'm phoning it in this league.


I'm just moving to SSF right now, I'm tired of this league and kinda tired with recent leagues in general. Shame most of my SSF characters are scuffed but I've got a meta RF character I'm building to farm gear for alts since I've got characters ready to be rebuilt if I ever decide to make anything with them. But yes. I usually try to play something off-meta, last league was shockwave cyclone champion (sorta meta, but not really), but this league I said fuck it and went LC. Had a blast playing off-meta skills like Crack Lance in AN, but increasingly it feels like any off-meta build requires me to jump through so many hoops that meta builds have baked into their core progression that I don't even bother with them. We have too many damned checkboxes in terms of offensive/defensive requirements even just to do comfy T16 mapping for "ye average hardcore" that it feels like if you're not playing meta and you're not no-lifeing the game that you're wasting time.


With crafting and currency farming as inefficient as it is now, the economy is a hot mess. Which in turn makes it difficult for the average gamer to try anything but meta builds without feeling completely frustrated with lack of progression or just getting steamrolled by some ridiculous AN rare.


I hadn't played in a good 4-6 leagues now after going pretty hard from breach to that point. I couldn't believe the changes when it came to defenses and whatnot. To be honest, it was very difficult for me to figure out what to change to survive. After almost quitting, i stumbled upon the EA elementalist ballista build. Luckily that one was enough, without just insane investment. I was able to farm up a good amount of currency. Now this is where it just killed me. In every previous league i played it would be enough to try so many builds. Not this one. Every build i'd lookup and try just got obliterated, even with 40+ div investments into them. It just absolutely killed my drive to play anymore. Usually when i play a league, good or bad, i'll go right to the bitter end. Instead i just got so frustrated. I can't believe the amount of on-death things there are now. Outside of the frustrating oneshots, by far most of my deaths was thinking i was safe, trying to loot and one of the ten thousand things after death would kill me. Things on the ground, disco balls coming at me from all ends, lightning spire spamming me you name it. They killed so many builds that just can't handle any of it due to investment on tree/gear. So many abilities are so far behind and can't keep up anymore because you need points investing into defense now. I'm not saying that's a terrible thing, but they haven't fixed 90% of the underperforming abilities to compensate leaving very few that can do much of anything "cheap-ish".


Good old days where I got so excited to read through skill balance changes because they would change like 50 skills at once and change up their numbers. Nowadays it feels like GGG is so lazy that they only nerf the top performers and leave the rest the same


Back in 3.13 there were MANY competitive builds available. You feel the way you do due the recent absurd amount of nerfs since them. Nothing we can do about it anyways.


nothing is fun when alot of builds got nerfed and powercreeped mobs.


I have no money to make new builds.


Game should be balanced around doing red maps on sub 50c budget. Change my mind.


This is what I have always done but it's getting harder and harder. And forget about doing any uber, my latest builds could barely kill the conquerors in red maps even if they were meta starters on mid-budget builds.


I am just trying to make zombies and skellies not be dog shit tier, but eh.. GGG is losing their magic tbh.


> GGG is losing their magic tbh They already lost their melee. (Sorry, I had to) PoE is figured out and that's kind of a problem imho. There's nothing wrong with the not all builds should be able to do uber content mindset, but with the ever increasing number of checkboxes to tick off just to play the game properly is tedious. For example, a couple of leagues ago it was luxury to get ailment immunity and was pretty cool to pull it off. Yes, it's easier to get there now, but it's almost mandatory now. People complained about the lack of good base defense. GGG implement spell suppression and reworks the passive tree, so we get some more options. Couple leagues later: you know your character will have a bad time, if you can't get spell supp or something similar going because GGG started to design their game around better defense, and that better defensive options are bare minimum now.


I had a build completely invested into keeping my zombies alive, and they got shredded by non-uber shaper. Admittedly, I wasn't optimized perfectly, I would have needed about 10-20 more div, but still. Doesn't feel good.


build around vaal skeletons. they rip bosses apart with 40 of them.


What demotivates me is the inability to reliably craft gear. I have a crazy tanky build, but it has a major weakness against chaos damage (only +3%), so I really need to craft some gear with chaos res, but to get there would be incredibly unreliable and I'd most likely end up without an upgrade after spending dozens of divines. This is the first time since I've started playing the game that I feel like I can't get the gear I need. They've added so much difficulty that requires really good gear, but they've taken away our only ways of making them reliably. You can still make them, but you'll waste days of farming every time that your late crafting 50/50 fails. And that's just not a game I want to play.


Yup, either that or they are too expensive. Economy in shambles and mostly only super meta builds "working" makes me not log in even though I'd prefer to play poe


I wanna play some non meta builds, BUT! when see cost I understand it's just impossible for me (average Joe) collect/craft all required gear in three months league, all I can do it's just watch this on ytube when some dude (playing 14h/day) play with this build and it's sad //


Can't agree more. Exactly my expirience.


POE is a game of many choices on paper, and many builds, but in reality, there are only a few choices, most skills either feel bad if you don’t invest a lot in them or you hit a brick wall and have to change the skill and since respecting to try new builds is stupidly expensive you are most of the time forced to create a new toon. In the end, you are forced to play the same old “leveling” skills doing the same content the same way so you can try a fun skill later on. I don’t know what GGG is doing, but I am sure what they never did: • Pick every single skill and run the campaign and earlier maps with them, with no tweaking of items, it’s a fast game to level, the campaign is easy so you should reach the end game in a couple of hours, and shouldn’t take more than a week or two for an experienced tester to try all skills Maby then you will notice smaller things like for example: • You can play animate weapon with a scion but unfortunately, you only get etherial knives from Siosa... so good luck with that. If you do that please record it, it will be fun to see the bloopers later on when you finally find out why a lot of people leave the game before even beating Brutus.


Oh no, now a bunch of people are going to post about how their RF and Lightning Strike builds got them to 38/40 so its fine. At this point im expecting seismic trapper, shockwave cyclone and other meta to remain for 3.20. Really disappointed in the past year of PoE. Which is saying something because i used to have nothing but good stuff to say about it to others. Edit: look, we got one here already everybody!


I just feel like every build is 95% the same. Sure there's that 5% difference, but with the defense requirement being what it is... they all end up the same.


I got frustrated at how rippy everything is, so I'm currently working on a Juggernaut build so I can get to or above 90% all resist and go from there.


For some reason i cant even do more than like 3 maps without closing it again due to boredom i have like 5K hours maybe i need a big break maybe the game needs more fun who knows


new trend POE: paly meta or sick duck


I've spent the last several play sessions after grinding out the campaign... going back to blood aquaducts and heists in order to level up skill gems. I spend more time looking around for cool builds than playing, but there is way too much time doing unfun things required just to try out a new build. I think there are still some fun builds out there, but I've had several I don't like and I'm not willing to invest 6+ hours re-leveling just to get something I can try in white maps.


I have started 6 characters this league, taken them to maps and abandoned them after realizing a specific AN combination hard counters them


It actually saddens me when I think about playing. I started on day 1 and it felt alright, but each build I've done has stalled in white maps. I look at builds to try and almost every single one has Doryani's prototype as the chest piece while the rest require several divines invested for uniques. I still have less than 50 Chaos across my characters this league. I genuinely feel like I'm wasting my time every time I log on and I feel so discouraged from trying to play. I just want to play POE :(


So fuking true. I can't wait to get to POE 2 SO WE RESET EVERYTHING. Fresh start


I just want a one button ranged build. Bring back Bleed Glad


Trade is fucked, more items are from sellers that are offline and its hard to buy smth


I fired up PoE today. Hit F5, went to hideout. And hit alt F4. Fuck PoE. It fucking sucks.


3.13 league patch please GGG


I did 38/40 challenges on my EA Ballista Elementslist and farmed about 60-80 div orbs in the process (if I would sell all my gear and loot). But every other Build that interests me now is using magebood/headhunter or some other incredibly expensive items. I played LS Raider and RF Inq last league which was really fun, but this league I'm just quitting now. Nothing to look forward to. :(


Lmao just play Last Epoch it's a ARPG and any build seems to work in the end game.


I think the whole category of Live Service games has reached the boundary of tolerance for the average person. A common complaint with all of these games is " The game doesn't respect the players time", which translates to, the developers have artificially extended the time required to feel any sense of accomplishment or reward; with the sole purpose of keeping players in game for as much time as possible. Path of Exile, one of the last games to succumb to this design philosophy, has now also shit the bed ( it has been heading this way for several years). Unfortunately, I don't see this game model going away, and I have resigned myself to just avoiding any live service games going forward. These games are being designed first and foremost to maximize the amount of time spent in game, all design desicions are based off of that, regardless of how a PR person tries to spin it. These games have reached the point, that no amount of PR speak can hide the hamster wheels.


Gear requirements to just have fun in end game mapping are way too stiff. They really need to revert monster buffs and player nerfs so that people can have fun again without needing to hit these massive defense checks to make a build feel even remotely good.


I play on and off, maybe a league or two off and one on. I caught 2 weeks near the end of Sentinel then played LE for a week or so before LoK started. First time ever I built a build I wanted to try out. I for once didn't copy someone's build but did my own from scratch and enjoyed fiddling with it. I played the first week, got up to lv88 and hit the wall hard. Randomly dying to AN mobs, some busted red map bosses that could one shot me, lakes were also disgusting at times as well. Couldn't push my gear further since stuff wasn't selling anymore by the end of the first week, and I wasn't finding much currency. I also played with a friend doing an RF tank build and he was also randomly dying to things constantly We started losing all of our motivation. We were running out of space to improve our builds more to live. I even looked at redoing my entire defence setup but the cost in gear required made it impossible for me. It all felt bad. I wish they'd change direction and let those of us who want to have fun, actually have fun. I don't want to play some HC mode designed to kill no-lifers who logout at the first instance of trouble. If that is the way the game is going to keep going, I guess Last Epoch will be my new ongoing ARPG when I get the cravings.


Stop bargaining and just accept that the game is shit and stop playing. Come back when the game is better, don't if the vision warps it further into the bin.


Well that's the state of melee since 3.15. Now that GGG is toning down the rest of the spell builds to the same level of mediocrity, the entire community is finnaly feeling it. But we, melee players, have been living in this hell for almost 2 years and most ppl never cared. This is the only reason this league is bearable to me. Now, at least everyone is fckd\* like me.


Unless you've got streamer currency to make any build work then enjoy the meta skills until they fix this stupid balance system them have


I really wonder if that is actually the case. The more I watch Mathil I come to the conclusion that every build can work. Mathil bangs out over 10 offmeta builds and beats Maven and Shaper with it. They most of the time look cool. I believe the problem are streamers like Kobe, Grimro or Emperian (no offense) which give you the assumption that you have to have that super duper mega farmer and if your build does not make 10+ divines an hour it sucks! If that is your goal that is okay, but setting your goals to that standard is limiting yourself in build diversity. However, I agree that melee is fuckd and crafting is an issue which needs to be addressed.


Mathil is super creative and arguably one of the best soft core build creators if you value variety. It’s not as easy as it looks to make many of his builds work well, but he’s a fairly smart guy and has so many hours in the game that he is knowledgeable too. Just saying, most people won’t be able to make many of the same skills work with their knowledge and experience in PoE.


Too many builds start out absolutely dogshit and your average player doesn't have the time to tolerate it whilst Mathil does


I was pretty sad when even Mathil couldn't get Burning Arrow to feel good. That skill was the business before, and now it is so bad. Feels bad man.


Haha i thought exactly the same! 🥲


Everytime I watch mathil he is just falling over and dying every other map, not sure if most of those builds would be able to map to 100 by just doing maps but thats more the state of the game


It's never been the case that offmeta can't work, but it HAS gotten much worse this patch. In sentinel I was farming sims week 3 using storm burst with aegis + melding + nebulis, I felt like ANYTHING could be strong without dumping a ton of ex into it. Now this league the good defensive gear is way too expensive and the options are limited. Losing the gravicius body craft really hurt, as did res efficiency at low budgets. Suppress doesn't exist on armor builds until extreme budget, and even then any uniques hamstring it (which was GGG's intent but not what the game is balanced for currently). I'm using tempered by war + ruby flask + arctic armor with 88 fire / 78 other res as my main ele defense, and I feel squishier than I did back in scourge on a 2ex energy blade build despite having over double the max hit taken. I can't drop purity of elements because I can't avoid shock otherwise and would have to take brine king for freeze, gimping my phys and crit defense. 4m dps and ignore resists doesn't feel like it's enough to just cruise in maps, I die more in a "normal" wrath of the cosmos alch and go map than in a height of hubris formed / twisted. I have no idea where I'm supposed to fit chaos res because I use a lot of uniques, but 20% is nowhere near enough for mapping so I've gotta buy an expensive watcher's eye with chaos res for purity of elements. I enjoy playing memes, I'm gonna continue to play memes, but I have like a third of the time played I normally would because it's so painful to meme on low budget / league start. Defensive requirements are too high and the cheap solutions were removed or made incredibly expensive, and it makes alch and go red maps a struggle til you're several divines in unless your build does damage without investment like the best meta builds.


> The more I watch Mathil I come to the conclusion that every build can work. Everyone says the key ingredient is time and currency. Nobody denied that any skill can work with the right investment. To top it off, Mathil plays 8h+ a day, and is extremely good at the game. Just because he makes a skill viable does not mean 99% of people can