By - DesMephisto
A friend told me about any game: "are you having fun pressing the buttons?".
That is what I look for in any game. Having fun pressing the buttons.
I'm having most fun when I spend brain power finding a way to click as few buttons as possible.
Which is why I like POE's depth
Making all my flasks activate on full charges and getting charges on taking hits has been great for my Inq RF experience.
Now if only the whole meta process of crafting/using maps could take as few buttons as possible
When I'm farming Blood Aqueduct or Vastiri Plains, all I need to do is CTRL-click the waypoint/exits to reset the area and get back to blasting
With maps you need to go to hideout, run to stash, open stash, go to map tab, chisel, alch, vaal maps, check for bad mods, grab a bunch of sextants and scarabs, run back to the map device, put it all in the map device, pick a master mission or influence, think about a zana mod, activate the map, enter a portal...
Why the fuck do there need to be so many steps between me and blasting mobs into shreds?
Last league did have some QoL which helps here.
- Kirac mods and masters are "remembered" between runs
- You can add full stacks of scarabs and fragments
Which makes maps the bottleneck. Here best approach I have found is to take a tab, put all maps you want to run in, rolling (chisel, alch, vaal, filter) all together and then take 2 maps (one to run now and one to run next)
That makes the process into:
1) exit previous map
2) dump in next map and open immediately
3) While map is opening, open stash, dumping everything into a dump tab
4) take map to run after the one you just opened. Every 10 maps you'll need to refresh the scarabs and fragments. Every 4 maps the sextants.
5) enter and blast away
This way you can chain multiple maps rather effectively
i think it easier to put all the maps on the right side of your inventory rather than have to grab a new one as you're stashing. you can also lay it out so that its 4 maps and then sextants beneath as a pseudo-reminder but honestly, whatever floats your boat
Pretty much the same. I personally take like 15 maps from the rolled stash but that's pretty much the process. Affinities for everything also help with dumping speed. I also carry 10 sextants a a few compasses in my inventory as i can I easily sustain with altars.
you can bulk roll like a whole map tab stash in 3 minutes and you're literally sorted for 1 to 2h. especially if you use a regex to roll & run the same zana mod repeatedly.
you can also drop scarabs into the map device 10 at a time. sextants sure, ig they're easy to forget but unless you're doing some specific juice strat its not the end of the world to miss out on those packs.
Or the alternative: "Do you hate pressing buttons? There's a build for that too."
For real though, I sometimes hate how some of the "fun" builds are gated behind massive amounts of investment in this game. Hopefully GGG makes some meaningful changes for next patch and swings the pendulum the other way.
This is always my problem. Run league starter til about 20 div. Try to switch to something like Cyclone etc...
Realize I need like 30 different things to make my non league starter not play like shit.
Fuck it up somewhere (maybe reservation efficacy, maybe a d layer that I forgot on my armor, "fucking hate spell suppression"l and then quit.
Yeah I feel that I switched to assassin ice nova cyclone and it’s been a pretty rough time getting the build going despite my already high investment.
Don’t get me wrong the build is a great mapper even at T16 alter maps however playing an older build without spell suppression is not fun. One shots galore especially cause the build is energy shield only.
Problem: fun builds are gated by investment.
I've always wondered what classes like Resto Shams and Warlock mains in TBC (where they mash Shadowbolt and Chain Heal) have going through their head for hours of raiding time. At least the Resto shams have target selection as an additional layer of decision making.
Then again, maybe that's their kind of entertainment- I would never sit down at a Jackpot machine, for example, but millions of people do.
It's a mix of multiple things. Warlocks are strong so you are rewarded on the dps meter. There's the encounter designs and the social aspect. There's also the feeling of progression through gear and the guild getting better as a whole. Driving a car with automatic gears can still be fun and allows you to pay attention to your surroundings more.
The automatic transmission analogy is really good.
I’m new to the game, and RF is simple and powerful and fast enough to be really fun.
As a guy who used to play resto shaman, I can answer that.
There are things like constantly keeping track who need help, casting healing spells (but that you only use chain heal is a lie, depending on expansion either you used more spells or down ranked few ranks), making sure your mana will last whole fight, keeping track of CDs, making sure totems are in range and know when to recast them AND doing boss encounter, learning mechanics, making sure you execute it correctly etc.
So in the end it is a lot more engaging then poe. I'm not saying POE is worse, just different game with different appeals.
Well, you mistake me. I'm not comparing Resto Sham gameplay to PoE. What would be the point? It's apples and oranges, not even the same class of comparison.
I'm comparing Resto Sham to other healers (well, aside from Paladins, who have one job) The charts don't lie - a simple 83% of a resto sham's healing is Chain Heal, then another 11% is downranked CH (for most Sunwell encounters outside of KJ where Chain blows).
95% healing from one spell hardly sounds engaging next to, say, a Holy Priest - who not only downranks as well, but uses CoH, Renew, PW:S, PoMs, Binding/Flashes and the very rare GHeal.
Resto druids just toss out Lifeblooms and Rejuvs with the occasional clutch hardcast heal. That's at least two buttons to work with.
Unless a shaman is routinely placed in a melee group and has to twist WF/GoA, they're the closest thing to Warlock on the healer spectrum.. or, well competing with Paladins.
Finally, I think it's extremely moot to bring up learning encounters as every class in WoW has to.
Because plonking down the totems and watch them jizz all over is where the fun is.
Jokes aside, my favorite time with playing a shaman was in MoP, strong heals & decent dps, I loved being able to carry random 5man heroics on it as elemental spec while still being able to dish out decent heals to keep the group alive (never had anyone die on me) while blasting things away.
And then in raids as resto, I enjoyed trying to place my healing rains efficiently, plonking down the totems to help out and trying to stay ahead by timing the chain heals to hit right after something bad happened.
But mostly, I just enjoyed watching the healing rain & the sound effect from it <3
I loved my warlock in bc and wotlk.
Keeping perfect rotation and uptime on a fat stack of dots did tons of damage.
Honestly it was a lot more active playstyle than the 1-3 button builds that are 90% of path of exile.
Nothing changes for restor shams in wotlk, they are both OP and least buttons mashed.
The most fun button I've managed to construct in PoE was Discharge on Q with 13 charges.
And with Farrul's Fur and other trickery I could press it every few seconds and watch enemies disappear and bosses melt to devastating ignites.
Something I heard a while back from a relatively small youtuber has forever shaped how I play the game. It equated to something like this:
"Wanna know how I farm up my headhunter each league? I do what I like. May not be the most efficient thing in the world, but when I'm having fun, I'm not sitting in hideout dreading my next map, I'm not on PoB, I'm not rerolling, and I'm not browsing the internet trying to find fun in other people's game. I just keep going and the currency keeps stacking up. Then I buy a HH and have even more fun"
Basically just have fun and you'll get there. Just gotta keep playing.
Hell yeah brother. I make 4 or 5 builds a league usually for whatever content I feel like smashing at the time. I always have fun! Despite it's issues this league, the atlas rework has made the game funner than ever for me.
I've never killed an uber boss or gotten past wave 30 simulacrum but one day I will. I never feel there is a rush.
I have gone in with the same mentality for the last couple of leagues and it's amazing. I'm sitting at a mageblood's worth of currency/gear and I haven't done any specific strats.
This league i farmed a mageblood and 150 div on top of that by still using stream of consciousness and not bothering with scarabs lol.
How much do you play per day? I've been doing specific stats and have only made 15 divines so far this league
May I ask how long you have been playing?
Not a dig at you in any way. I am just curious.
I'm on my other account, this is oryx.
I've been playing for 3 years.
You could make 4 divs or more an hour just rushing essences in white maps, so I dont think it's really a matter of how much you play, when it comes to make 15 divs.
In this 15 divs estimate, do you count essences, scarabs, some easily sellable alternate currencies etc?
You can make 15 divs in a morning just farming eldritch altars I feel, if you count those things.
Lol yes I count them. I use exilence
Ok, then I have no explanation for you as to how you made only 15 divs in a month :)
I'm just bad at the game i think. I fail a lot of bosses/maps and it usually takes me 2-3 weeks to finish atlas, I'm still trying to get voidstones. I've failed prob 7 mavens now so I'm just wasting currency constantly
Ok I see. Yea, getting your voidstones is super important, and if you dont achieve that, it's hard to setup a good currency making strategy. I dont make much currency personally until I'm setup and can chain maps or whatever else I wanna do.
Try to understand what part you're the worst at. Mechanics? Knowledge? Meme builds? and try to improve on that if you want :)
if you can kill shaper at a reasonable pace, hes always decent profit from selling fragment. 40-45c per kill not including the other stuff he drops. if you do 10 minute runs which is very doable with just a tabby you make 240c an hour.
Shaper is just so god damn boring. My fights are only like 5 seconds of actually firing off skills, but actual fight time is well over a few minutes thanks to all dialogue.
Invulnerability phases suck, but extremely long dialogue you only care about a maximum of once is even worse.
I agree I much prefer elder fights to shaper
Around 3-5h daily after work, unless I got some other responsibilities lined up.
May I ask how long you have been playing?
Not a dig at you in any way. I am just curious.
Since breach league on and off. I did dabble a bit grinding the docks before in 2014 or so.
I just realized I asked the wrong person sorry! My question was aimed at Oryx506
There is profitable and there is optimal. A lot of people let searching for optimal gameplay ruin their attempt and profitable gameplay.
My guild has farmed up Pinnacle level gear doing random shit and off meta builds.
Did we get day three magebloods and level thirty afk simulacrum tanking even get away? If course not, but we sure had a lot of fun getting here
And this is how I get a Mageblood in Sentinel. Profit per hour? No idea. Fast mapper? Eh.... RF is hardly optimal. But it was tanky enough to do the Glacier strat without turning on RF, then popping it and cleaning house. It was repetitive but fun so I just kept doing it... alch and go. It helped that I learn to do bulk bubblegum sales.
I had a similar experience with my first HH, back when CoC Ice Nova was the big thing. Just so enjoyable that I kept playing it. I rarely push that far.
That sounds like Yoji
> Just gotta keep playing.
This needs to still be fun though.
I personally enjoy theorycrafting and optimising PoBs, which is why I spend a lot of time doing that. However, that doesn't generate currency.
Playing the game generates currency, but that gets boring pretty fast unless I have a really fun build.
I've tried to have a similar mentality for the last 2-3 years worth of leagues, but for me the "just keep playing" part seems to mean put in 4+ hours a day and more on weekends, which for a lot of people is just unrealistic.
I got my first level 100 in Archnemesis with this mentality and loved every second. But realistically speaking for a lot of people who want to achieve a decent level of currency (to purchase HH or mageblood) the best option is to sell everything you find that makes this game unique. As in, sell your invitations instead of running, sell your breachstones, your fragments, even your unused currency and maps (and if you aren't an expert in crafting it's probably best to sell off your fossils/essences/exotics and buy your item). And that all takes time from the mapping experience.
In Archnemesis I played more than I ever had in a league. Did all my own invitations, made nothing. Then decided to just boss rush and sell them off, made like 30-40ex in like 3 days (I had 30 exarch invites when I stopped playing because I couldn't be bothered trying to sell them on TFT). Sold excess maps, another 5-10ex. Sold guardian/conqueror maps, another 20ex.
The thing is, I love running all that stuff. As a player that can't put in the required hours for many currency making strategies, getting to end game and running it on one or two builds is pretty much all I've got. Just wish it was more profitable for a more casual player to run that stuff than to sell it.
Just last night I decided to invest in a strategy to make a little currency for myself and made like 1 divine in two maps if I decide to sell everything on top of other drops.
> but for me the "just keep playing" part seems to mean put in 4+ hours a day and more on weekends
Unofrtunately the reality for Heahunter and other super expensive things. Either you gotta compromise and find a middleground of profit and fun, or you gotta accept that youll only see that headhunter if you dont quit the league til the very end. Just how it is with these very expensive items, theyre primarily for people who play the game a lot to maintain solid goals.
If you want an alternate recommendation, I suggest trying for smaller yet still very good uniques such as Aegis Aurora or Crystallized Omniscience, ones that are strong and capable of fueling entire cool builds which can give you the feeling of earned power in a fraction of the time spent. Maybe then you can even get into uber bossing using the power of these builds, which can be a real money source, and end up hitting that Headhunter or Mageblood anyways after some lucky relic drops?
Oh definitely. I wouldn't say I'm upset by how it all works, I think the hardcore players definitely need something to strive for. If I could get a mageblood in the hours that I've played I'd be pretty lucky (although I did spend like 6,000+ astras last league and 4,000+ the league before and didn't get one good unique, I feel like I'm due).
My main concern is more around how selling everything is almost always the best way forward if that's what you're after (when your a more middle ground player). 10-20 guardian/conqueror maps likely means no good drops, 100-200 almost guarantees it multiple times over (like a conquerors orb for example). So for my time, selling is easier, for a player with 60+ hours a week, playing the content is easier/more profitable. And this has gap has only grown larger over the last few years. Again, it's just a game, so I'm not angry, just an opinion from my years observing the ever changing new league economies.
I made a TS build in... Legion? I think. Farmed up a Headhunter and played it for like 2 days before realising that isn't why I play PoE. The gameplay bored me (and the gameplay leading up to getting the HH was even more boring, but efficient). Mageblood would be fun, but isn't necessary.
I'm happy with my mediocre Lightning Conduit build that can do everything but ubers, considering I started two weeks late and the economy has already outrun me.
Trade is super OP, that's why trade manifesto, that's why harvest, etc. SSF is a totally different game and is a nice change if you wanna feel that. There it's much different in that you win so much by running all the different content.
And if you can get a small group for a private league that's even better since that way you usually get your missing uniques.
Yep this is my first league I haven't rerolled at all because I've enjoyed my league starter and it has tons of room for growth. This is also the first league that I've continuously reinvested nearly all of my currency back into min-maxing my gear. Usually I'm saving it all once my build feels comfy enough, for some chase item that I usually never end up getting.
I'm currently sitting on at least 100div (not including the gear I'm wearing). I have only ever broken 100 ex in prior leagues once or twice but it always felt like a grind and I was either providing services on TFT or heisting.
It's crazy how different this game feels when you're simply sticking with one fun, high ceiling build. That 3 hours of looking for a new build or checking out PoB's, or that 8 hours that you were going to spend rerolling is just more profit. A few days ago I spent most of my currency on an omni with +1 curse, and new gear for running omni, and I've already made it all back two fold.
Problem is my fun is shaper farming and thats end game stuff LMAO
Five years ago, sure.
These days, Shaper is a punching bag. You can kill him with [[Allelopathy]] and a 1L Flame Dash on a level 80 Occultist that skipped Uber Lab. He does literally nothing that should ever kill you.
>>####Energy Shield: **(56-72)**
>>####Requires Level **41**, **60** Int
>>#####Grants Level 22 Blight Skill
>>#####(100-120)% increased Energy Shield
>>#####10% increased Area of Effect
>>#####Blight has (20-30)% increased Hinder Duration
>>#####You cannot be Hindered
>>*"Nothing is more natural than competition.*
>>*One feasts, another starves.*
>>*One blossoms, another withers.*
>>*And one cannot catch the golden sunlight*
>>*without casting a bitter shadow."*
>>*- Cadiro Perandus*
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I try to look for a new build every league and end up going back to minions/CoC/Flicker/wander every time.
Fun builds matter a lot. I’ve played off-meta builds for my entire ~11 years in PoE, because I go with what’s fun for me, rather than what is the most OP or meta.
Sadly, over the years, GGG still somehow managed to decimate every single fun build I’ve enjoyed. It’s honestly a little heartbreaking.
Most of the builds I liked either had their legs chopped off, the skill got reworked or they became mechanically awkward as the game speed increased.
My first build ever, low life RF dual firestorm totems (from onslaght league) is literally not possible anymore because that version of firestorm doesn't exist.
>GGG still somehow managed to decimate every single fun build I’ve enjoyed.
There is a really hard to determine difference between "fun" and "easy" in GGG's eyes.
I also think they struggle with a couple of different design goals with their skills.
Like, clearly some skill gems are pretty crap and are only useful in edge cases or for meme builds. A lot of skills really only get used as leveling fodder as well. Then there are skills like Cobra Lash that you can just pick at level 1 and go all the way to T16s with. Then there are other skills that are really only useful after heavy investment, which means they don't get a lot of play since most players only play 1 character.
I think GGG wants a diversity of skills. They want leveling skills. They want good skills for starter builds. They want skills that are only useful in edge cases or for memes and they want skills that only work with a lot of investment. This is actually their design goal.
The problem is... players don't experiment. And PoE has a lot of required investment. You need quite a bit of time, skill and currency, to test out a lot of different builds, which is why its usually only a handful of people who do guides or play a diversity of characters each league. Most people are just copying each other and using the same templates for all their builds, which are already meta builds.
Add to this GGG nerfing popular builds because they feel they're too strong and people aren't trying all the other skills and building new characters, and it just means people get really discouraged.
But yeah, I really think sometimes GGG doesn't understand that their average player isn't very interested in trying half a dozen skills to maps before deciding they all suck, and I don't think they also realize most players want at least 20 divines or more in currency to get a second or third character going, and its a huge struggle to get that much currency for a lot of players.
The average player is VERY interested in enjoying the variety that the game promises you, but they are unable because the demand on builds is going up exponentially.
Man this reminds me of a Mjolnr Discharge build I played a while back before they quadrupled boss hp and ruined the feel of the build
Yep, this is one of the builds I miss the most:
Cyclone Mjölnir discharge, was so damn fun.
I remember RicoKGB and his builds. They were beautiful
My thoughts exactly. I've been playing since closed beta and I just run with what I find fun, but it's a very different game from what it used to be.
GGG used to enjoy clever builds that took advantage of clever ideas. Sadly over the years they have slowly but surely been pigeonholing builds into a handful of archetypes.
While I agree that playing what you like is important, you are saying this as if meta builds aren't/can't be fun.
A lot of meta builds have been super fun over the years and posts like this are just strange to me.
How is that what you're getting out of what he said at all? He's not saying what he finds fun isn't op or meta, he just doesn't base what he plays off of if it's op or meta.
> I’ve played off-meta builds for my entire ~11 years in PoE, because I go with what’s fun for me, rather than what is the most OP or meta.
Dude says he has only played "off-meta" builds in 11 years like whatever he likes to play has never been meta. It is just an edgelord thing to say and holier than thou attitude.
EDIT : And pretty much every play style has been meta or close to it at some point
Someone who doesn't like playing what's popular isn't an edgelord or elitist. Some people just don't like doing the same thing everyone else is doing. That's that.
I don't think you know what the word meta means.
Summons, totems, traps, mines, strike skills, slams, cyclone, bow skills, etc have all been meta at some point, especially during the last 11 years. I can't think of too many playstyles that have had 0 time in the meta during the games history.
Meta changes over time. This person said they enjoyed a build when it wasn't meta at the time of playing it. It's not something that is grandfathered in and stays meta forever.
I am well aware that what is strong changes over time. If you like a certain playstyle, then you like that playstyle. Refusing to play what is meta because it is meta, and not because you don't like the playstyle, is dumb.
All this person said was they choose builds based on what they find fun and not what's popular. That seemed to have upset you. Best of luck.
youre being pedantic
SST saved my fun in expedition
I tried tornado shot for the first time this league…I can see why so many people play it once they get some currency haha. It’s clear is insane, it feels great and looks amazing. Plus if you aren’t magic finding it is decently tanky.
I've considered trying TS, can it do all map mods?
Only mods to watch out for are probably no leech and ele reflect (can ignore if you have woke wed)
Ele reflect killed me more times than I care to admit, but you can do it with that sextant that prevents reflect dmg. Everything else is fine, but ele resist/incr life is kind of annoying.
>but you can do it with that sextant that prevents reflect dmg
It's even [quite cheap](https://www.pathofexile.com/trade/search/Kalandra/JG4Wd45Hl) if you want to buy it. Downside: You have to trade in PoE. Easier to just swap your minor soul and respec a mastery.
It can be built to handle all map mods yeah. Yugul+ele mastery to fix reflect, claw mastery lgoh w/lioneyes fall to kind of fix noleech, endurinh mana flask on standby in case of no regen.
> claw mastery lgoh w/lioneyes fall
Other low cost options include the first node into clever thief, or flat mana gain on hit on a viridian jewel.
Damn that's sexy, I'll love to try it!
I also tried Tornado shot this league but I went with a triple curse (despair,temporal chains,and enfeeble) poison Occultist version.
It's fun and works for what I need it for and it only took like 5 divine to get going, has good clear and caps all resistances easily and decent bossing ability.
if you think ts has good clear wait until u try lightning arrow.....
I followed a lightning arrow guide to level, then fuzzyducks tornado shot guide. Tornado shot does not feel good until you get a good bow so I highly recommend lightning arrow or something else to level with.
I enjoy a low Battlemage Staff Divine Ire inquisitor. You can definitely build to be pretty tanky these days while standing still, the buffed arctic armor + infused channeling is a lot of phys resist on its own.
Got a pob or char link on poe ninja for the divine ire setup? Been working on one for inquisitor but havent got it working yet.
I actually don't have either; I don't really use PoB, and all the PoENinja builds are using doryani's prototype which I never build around because I play mostly casual SSF. I like to build my builds in PoePlanner, then just kinda see how they evolve as I play them.
The core idea is that Divine Ire gets 45% added damage effectiveness, but that becomes a massive number at 20 stacks. I go for a full physical staff when I get battlemage, then use lightning conversion and added damage for big crits. I use Ele Overload until I start building crit later in.
Cool is there a way to map on divine ire better, I forget which skill gems give it the three lasers holy shotgun effect
Agreed. I want to play the game on SSF, I hate trading and it's just my personal "vision" that ARPGs should be a fully SSF game. Stopping to browse the trade site, seeing prices for things, and then needing to just farm up currency to buy stuff just feels wrong and takes away from the game so much. The focus becomes farming up currency over just playing the damn game.
But I just can't resist the allure of playing trade to enable "fun" builds. I will get inspired and think of a certain interaction or a certain archetype or whatever but it's just not feasible to do without trading. So I am in this zone where I play trade league that don't enjoy playing so that I can enable a fun build to play, or I enjoy playing ssf and just doing what I want without worrying so much about currency farming and efficiency, but am stuck playing one of 5 meta builds which rarely change and I don't particularly like, so it's boring.
My ideal game would be ritual harvest, with current atlas, with every single unique being realistically deterministically farmable with no trading. Either by running a map/map boss over and over, a specific league mechanic, campaign zone (for leveling uniques), etc. I just want to be able to target farm what I want with some level of reliability and realistic chances of getting it to drop. Fuck worrying about rat race currency farming and economic impacts on an arpg. I just want to play the game and have fun.
You've expressed so much about how I feel, ssf vs trade. I echo like 99% of your entire post.
I've been thinking the next best in between is group-ssf or guild-ssf. Just a few players (friends) who pool together resources and improve gear as one unit. But who has friends? LuL
I agree with you on the SSF aspect but mostly because it is so extremely difficult to balance proper ingame economy if trading exists. If trading did not exist or is limited to only certain items then it would be so much easier for the devs to balance the game properly so that everyone can enjoy it.
Right now the casuals with less playtime and gaming knowledge are far better off selling most of the things that are worth something and then buying the gear they want, while the no lifers are pretty much controlling the market and getting rich and richer. But even they are buying the gear they want because so many endgame top tier items are near impossible to farm and pick up.
And SSF sucks in this game because it is balanced around trade league, they would ruin the economy if they made items easier to acquire. I often wonder how the game would be if you could not trade rares for example but could trade currency and uniques. That way they could make rares on the ground roll much better and make crafting easier and more accessible without ruining the economy.
Selling things to other players and buying or crafting my items gives me much more enjoyment than grinding for a random chance to get whatever item I need from loot lottery. Can't wait for Last Epoch to get an economy.
you might like corrupting fever champion
Unfortunately, being viable comes first than being fun. It is hard to have fun if you can't play the game. Some builds are just too weak to do it. That doesn't mean they have to be meta to be viable, but they have to be functional.
That's imho the fundamental issue with the balance direction GGG has taken since 3.15: the threshold for builds to be "viable" in the sense that they have the damage and survivability to feel "good enough" has risen substantially, to the point that only a handful of builds can meet the threshold without 50+ divines in gear.
For me the main issue is one they nerf useful scalling mechanics rather than targeting skills. The way they handled trap support changes when trying to promote self-cast made me give up on trying a trap storm rain build because it got a massive nerf without the compensation the spells got.
Or how they "buffed" MoM this patch by... making it slightly easier to spec into but worthless to focus (pun intended) on by removing or nerfing all sources of damage taken from mana before life...
That was the most confusing patch note. I get wanting to give the OPTION of more chest pieces but, like... the problem with Archmage right now is bad regen because they took the mega op regen down because it was busted with Agnostic. Now they want you to not wear the one chest piece that gives % base regen? lol.
Not only that, they basically removed all sources of 'damage taken from mana before life' and nerfed the unveil... It was technically possible to get up to 100% of damage taken from mana before life and it required some investment, but it seemed reasonable enough for a fun build. I guess I should have played that last season, huh? Should have seen a MoM nerf coming, yeap, most broken thing in the game that definitely needed nerfing.
What makes it worse is that it would have been quite a bit of fun to make a mana stacking MoM Lightning Conduit build that used the mastery that gives lightning ailment effect from increased mana at 30% ratio. GGG really doesn't like Archmage it seems.
> GGG really doesn't like Archmage it seems.
Like every other keystone that GGG addresses - they like it until they decide they dont - then it's dead until they choose to revive it with an insane buff again
What feels worse to me is that in the past if you walked into red maps with very simple +1 wands and a level 20 or 21 spell you felt great but now it doesn't feel anywhere close to enough. Levels on spell skill gems after that baseline were a luxury that helped you kill bosses faster but didn't really change mapping.
I play trappers every league. Same generic damage nodes as ever and every league it feels like I need more investment to get to the point my character feels decent.
For real, all the fun prophets out here saying “just have fun”. I started the league with a Blade Vortex mapper and while it was ok, switching to int stacking wander accelerated my enjoyment ten-fold because it was just better.
I get that some derive enjoyment in different ways, but I just want to play an all-rounder that is good at everything. It has to be strong. Seeing people stuck in yellow maps talking about how they are enjoying their half-baked build that doesn’t do anything just makes me question if they’ve even felt how good it feels to be able to blast the easy content to smithereens.
The other issue is that if you choose a poor starting build your likely to stunt your ability to actually get into more fun builds simply because you can’t make currency fast enough.
We have. It didn't make things more fun. If anything it made it more boring. Particularly bossfights. If I'm deleting the boss instantly, I haven't experienced it at all. I don't envy the guys who can do that one bit.
You're going to have to define what "viable" means.
People have wildly different definitions.
Mine would be bring able to do alch and go red maps. If a build I make can't do that without crazy investment I would start changing things up drastically.
Well, context matters more than people's definitions.
If you want to boss, your build has to be able to progress and do those bosses. Same for mapping.
There is no point defining viability without a stated goal.
If you are fine being stuck on yellows for two weeks on standard... sure. But that is not the expectation most people have and not all builds can match most people's expectations of progress on a temporaly League, where resides over 90% of the player base.
Most 'mapping' builds, save a few extreme niche cases, can do most bosses just fine. They just take a bit longer. Similarly most bossing builds, save a few extreme niche cases, can map just fine. They just take longer. That is not a question of viability, but competitiveness. Competitiveness is not the same as viability.
I mean sure, but i would still rather watch a paint dry than try to kill Maven on KB CF glad. You can do it if you are good at the fight but i don't see it being a fun expirience.
You're just starting from a different starting point than OP.
OP is saying they go "I wanna play this build because it is fun" and then they have fun doing the content that build can do.
You are saying "I wanna do this content and have fun" and then you have fun playing a build that can do that content.
Those are the two obviouse extremes and most people fall somewhere in between. But they are two fundamentally different ways of enjoying PoE.
Well, the OP doesn't put any argument foward to support her claim that fun is more important than anything else in the game.
It is just a description of him/her fiding an enjoyable build that is able to do the desirable content.
My comment just points that being able to do that content (viability) comes first than just linking a build.
The existence of a variety of fun builds that are viable doesn't invalidade the fact that viability is an important factor on enjoying the game.
People that don't care about what a build is able to do are exceptions. Most people play the game to progress and accomprish their goals or to go as far as they can go - you can't just pretend everybody is a snowflake with their particular definition of fun.
If you are in a soccer game, the likelyhood you want to score a goal like everyone else in that field is quite high.
>put any argument foward to support her claim that fun is more important than anything else in the game.
lol if fun isnt the most important thing in a game, what is?
Well for me it's less that fun isn't important, but if something struggles in content I want to do - whether that be bossing or juices maps, or being slow in reds, whatever - then it becomes less fun as a result.
It doesn't matter how clever I think my build is if at the end of the day if it's clunky and slow getting through a map. I'm not gonna have fun with that.
This is what gets me. People say this, but then immediately fail to understand that almost every damage skill in this game, apart from a handful, do function. It takes less than 3 mil DPS to do T16 maps, and if the worst scaling archetype in all of PoE (melee bleed) can do it, so can everything else.
I was farming T16s with less than 150 chaos invested into a lacerate bleed build. There were many atlas strategies I couldn't run, but I could run several profitable ones that enabled me to switch to a higher end build that I also enjoyed playing. It's totally possible.
The issue isn't that they're "not viable". The issue is that people say viable meaning it needs to be able to altar farm and also do pinnacle bosses. Of course when you're talking about the most difficult farming methods and very high end content the build pool shrinks, but nearly any main damage skill can get to T16.
The disparate nature of each skill at T16 is the problem.
Especially for a game with an economy that rewards you for clearing content quickly.
Disparity is not a matter of viability, just competitiveness. Not everyone wants to play the game to run another damn rat race. If it can clear endgame content, it is very much viable. How competitive it is is besides the point.
> It is hard to have fun if you can't play the game.
I don't know what this means. Clearly you can always play the game. I'm guessing you mean you can't have fun unless you can do some level of content, but since you forgot to actually say what level of content you were talking about it's hard to know.
That is up for people to decide by themselves, but most people play temporaly League and the goal is pretty clear for the majority of the players that keep at it long enough to get to maps. Clear high level maps, get stronger and kill bosses or clear faster.
The reality is, people that don't want to do the content the game has to offer just quit the game. Very few keep playing in some niche personal way.
You can have plenty of fun in mid level maps, or even low level maps. It's not like the game is no fun before t16.
ur not playing a "4fun" build, ur playing a well established OP meta build that melts everything, that's why ur having fun :3
I dont melt everything. I just melt maps. And what the fuck was blade flurry? It could kill ubers in 20 seconds for fuck sake lol
I don't feel like RF is OP. It is solid for mapping, but single target is pretty lacking without some major investment. Pretty balanced imo.
Its refered to as op since you can get a better combination of defenses and dps than on most other builds for the same currency investment. On the higher end an RF build will be able to output extremly good damage, enaugh to quickly dispose of uber bosses, while still having extreme defenses with melding/aegis. If you invest the same amount into defenses on most other skills your damage output will be pitiful -- or you will need 5-10x the budget.
I only ever play my own fun builds, but these days they barely even are yellow map tier, with no damage nor tankiness, cuz GGG has made sure that no fun allowed and you have to play meta way.
I really love earthbraker totem, especially Sunder, so satisfyingly mesmerizing multiple overlappin sunder visuals, but even Quin deals more damage than anything earthbreaker supported.
I tried playing off meta builds and had a terrible time, never again. #metaslave
Meta has changed over the years. ED/Contagion, RF, summons, cyclone, lightning strike, TR, totem skills, traps/mines...
While everything isn't meta at once, pretty much everything has been meta at one time.
What off-meta build has a bad time? Or is it more a build issue?
Just started playing last epoch, it has less builds but man, it has so many qol improvements and generally its less frustrating to play than poe lol
It is but there are other issues. I was playing it on the weekend thinking about why I stop and go play something else or why I don't feel a lot of enjoyment sometimes playing it. Turns out maps are boring in LE because they're all the same maps repeated over and over with some paths open/closed randomly. No random league content that I may be excited to see, less mob variety, it's all predictable. You even already know what type of loot you'll mostly get from a map via the monolith. It's too predictable.
As was PoE when it was in closed alpha and all you had was the ledge!
1000% I have played more this league than any other league than the past 5 years because I am enjoying Death Oath so much. The game is all about what play style you like, find what you enjoy and stick to it, the game is much better that way IMO.
Unfortunately the only viable build i enjoy is lightningstrike since 2-3 leagues in a row and it gets a bit stale.
I feel like all the builds i liked to Play are gone and the meta Never changes.
What about just using LS to build up the currency to play str stacking replica alberons with virtually any attack skill you fancy? Someone is apparently doing well with sunder and replica alberons. Just an idea, there are other very expensive builds you can try after building some currency. A lot of fun builds just have a rly high cost to enter fee. LS also scales well with gear, but if u stop having fun with it, transition to somth else.
any meta build tbh.
Disagree. I played TR when it was meta and just absolutely hated the way it felt. The skill is irredeemable imo.
Indeed, the game is at it's best when a playstyle "you" find fun is meta, or at least not complete dogshit without having to throw mirrors of currency to make it work.
Pretty much why the game has been unplayably fun for a year+ for me. I just want the stuff I played for years to be.... "viable"
Same, I've probably played a total of 4 days since 3.15, keep checking to see if the game is back to fun yet. I honestly have given up hope that it will ever be again.
Same with both EA totems and Seismic more recently. Hated both even though they obviously felt strong, neither playstyle suited me. Enjoyment of a build for me isn't hard linked to power.
Should go without saying no judgement towards those who play those skills, I'm sure there's a great many players that would hate builds I prefer as well.
Man that's so sad I absolutely love almost everything about it.
Its a bow skill, it's a dot day you can actually scale really well, it's fast, got decent aoe, cool mtx, slows enemies and lingers on the ground so others can just walk into it and die. You can even prefire on bosses!
Man now I kinda feel like making a TR build again...
That’s awesome man. You do you. I was just disagreeing with all “meta” feeling good. TR was one that felt horrible to me. Spectral helix is another meta skill that many hate the way it feels.
No I totally get it, everyone likes different things. I can agree that spectral helix feels terrible though.
Getting your ass kicked is not fun so if you can't kill stuff fast and survive while doing it the build is no good.
The game is supposed to be fun. I can never wrap my mind around why people see the massive skill tree and instead of making something original will instead just do whatever everyone else is doing. But if that's their fun then so be it.
This is what allows me to not be bothered much by most changes GGG makes to the game. I play this game for the builds, not to be the most efficient at it. So as long as I can find builds I want to play, I play. And I don't care if those builds turn out to be amazing or not. Hence Sentinel was actually a far worse league for me, despite so many here loving it, as there weren't any new things things added or unique reworks or whatnot (recombinators didn't add new stuff, just made existing stuff better). I care about items being attainable - particularly uniques - more than how powerful they may be, as I want to be able to finish my builds in terms of their mechanics more than I want to min-max them. The worst change GGG has made in recent times imo wasn't to general loot, and in fact wasn't even in this patch - it was when they 'rebalanced' Ashes of the Stars so it's MUCH rarer now. I'd have vastly preferred they just removed the +1 level on it. It's sad that so many build defining uniques are again gated behind not just pinnacle bosses but also rarity. Reminds me of the days when low-life builds were gated behind Shavs which was incredibly expensive. My current build really wants a Sublime Vision, but that costs a ton. By contrast I'm not after powerful crafted rares, so Harvest changes don't bother me much. I'm not after the biggest number for the little pixels we call wealth in this game, so the loot changes don't trouble me much either. I just want my build defining items goddamn it! And no, farming heavily in order to get them has never appealed to me much, regardless of the state of loot, which is why twink items like HH have never interested me. I have a HH on Standard - I've used it once in all my years playing this game. Stuff like Shavs and Ashes of the Stars matter more to me than HH or Mageblood ever will.
Sure. Your core message is right.
But you started too late to understand what the standard for "fun" is for most of us who have been playing for years. There's very little left for us. You seem to be trying to tell us "just look for what's fun!"
We did. We tried. There was nothing to be found. The game itself isn't fun for most of us anymore.
And if I get downvoted for saying this, it's because the people that left have given up so hard that they're not even on the subreddit anymore. Because this was the most popular message from the end of the first weekend up until 2 weeks ago. Still hoping there are enough people who actually care about the health of the game for that to not happen. But the fact that you never experienced PoE before 3.15 means you... just don't have a conception of what this game is capable of offering. It was incredible.
>We did. We tried. There was nothing to be found. The game itself isn't fun for most of us anymore
Lol. Why DO you even play then?? I feel like most poe players forget it's a fucken video game. People treat it as a job. "I put my X hours in, but only got Y drop?!?" I don't get it.
tbh, you dont having fun because your build is fun, you having fun because your build doesnt struggle that much, you're tanky, you have DMG, less death = less frustrated = more fun. that's all. i only want to grind for 40 challenges if my build can do every single content while min-max to the end. otherwise i just quit after a month
As a new dad being able to play one handed has been a life savior. I actually really enjoy that.
my son will born the next month and im seriously want to build a RF now, my PC pathfinder requires too much clicks xD
It is perfect for babies, 100% recommend.
How to play is you test the builds the previous league and don't commit to a build in a new league without testing and preparing it. My next build is completely unpopular and I tested it, it's very much uber viable, even uber + conditional viable. Nobody's going to play it (a few will play the skill but not in the same shell), and I'm not going to say shit about it. But to get to it, I had to test builds constantly and stay in the know.
Most people not enjoying the league just pick some random garbage and even then do it badly. Honestly if you have any complaints about Archnemesis anymore you are legit hopeless. On every test I ran they were not even an issue.
You said ... fun ?
Once you found rf - you never leave rf (or similar walk simulators). That's the truth. You play, you chill,land you focus on the overall journey rather than play-yo-play moments.
the problem is if other things are fucked up enough then fun builds become harder to achieve... which isnt fun... which causes people to quit, complain, etc.
so yes I agree fun builds matter a lot but barrier to entry matters just as much, as does the general recipe for said fun builds. if you have to tick 100 boxes to make something feel good it's not fucking fun to get to the fun build lol
True. What truly is important is having fun and enjoying your build.
Also the fun for me is making it super strong. Min-maxing it as my farmed currency can get.
i get bored of the main skill everytime at around lvls 80-90 and reroll, i have usually like 10 characters/league, including lake, keeps it fresh, enjoy leveling sometimes more than endgame
Haha toxic rain raider with 500 movespeed is probably a build I’m going to use almost every league from now on. Then a secondary bossing build.
I had my first mage blood this league :)
While I don’t enjoy some changes, roaming around and see monsters go boom by my herald of thunder is so fun
I can confirm. My HoAg build in Delve and my Aurabot in Delirium were some of the strongest builds I've ever played, but the gameplay on both was extremely boring.
I had a lot of fun at the start of the league, but then Archnemesis forced me to build way more defensively and after that my build wasn't fun to play anymore, even though it was probably objectively a better build.
RF is such a great comfort pick. Juggernaut's Unbreakable Ascendency node is incredible; taking elemental damage as phys, stacking w/ the body armor mod that replaced 10% life as ES and Dawnbreaker's high block and elemental dmg as fire... I finally got my RF Scepter today; 500k RF roughly & 1.5m Firetrap. Beat a few bosses in SSF tonight!
Seismic Trap is another comfort pick. I know a lot of people dislike it, but played via poison w/ Coated Shrapnel, easy 100% spell-suppression, exsanguinate being super smooth, easy scaling via Cold Iron Point, Deerstalker's for QoL. It's fast & mobile! It's not quite as tanky as RF, but it is deceptively tanky, and it really grew on me over time.
LC absolutely obliterates things, but I'm not fond of crafting the AR/EVA gear on everything and getting Vorici into research to force white sockets on items. It's not fun transitioning into red maps on things that don't have a good way to deal with the heavy damage / AN modifiers. Spell Suppression is common, but the Unbreakable Jugg node is definitely flying under the radar.
Wow didn’t enjoy the trapper?!
Sounds like you enjoy zoom with us reasonable. Give EA champion a go. Nice middle ground between zoom and bossing
I hate bossing lol
Great mapper, super tanky, good speed. Yeah mate, that's a meta build, people complain that you can't go off meta anymore.
Think the point I'm making is, if a build is fun, people want to play longer.
Allowing for more viable builds means people play longer.
That is definetly true, the leagues i played the most was the ones i made multiple characters and i could actually test builds
Wholeheartedly agree. The mess of early 3.19 combined with my choice of build (EA Ballista Totems) made me lose momentum and interest very quickly this league.
> and now I've found Righteous Fury
Sorry I main warrior in WoW.
Oh hey, I just clicked on where I recognised your username from. Your interview with Dr K was great.
Glad you enjoyed it!
i have been playing cyclone shockwave slayer since scourge (when i started poe) and im honestly having too much fun with it, i really cant commit to any other build :D i just love it
It is just missing something for me personally. I think I don't like melee in this game lol
Until you realize you have to go through the campaign, get all the skill books, and do the ascendant crap again
RF I think ruined every other build for me, is just so chill, walking, occasionally throwing an infernal cry or mines but big chilling.
I tried Lighting strike after RF and invested a ton of the currency I made from RF into it and... it was fun and it was great to see bosses melt when positioned well but damn mapping was stressful and didn't enjoy the run, stop, attack, run.
POE has some of the best feeling necromancer/minion building of any game. Specifically what brought me in. Shame continuous nerfs make it fairly impractical to play it in most ways but a few. Hope to see it come back. I think it always dominated the ascendency pick rate not for being the actual best build, but being incredibly fun style of play with tons of variety under the hood, and that there are a huge number of players with a disposition to like necromancer like builds. Basically picked for aesthetic and style, while still being capable enough
You should give earthquake juggernaut a try. not the best damage but boy oh boy is it tanky and fun to play.
Leap slam in and stun. come down with the axe and a moment later the earth erupts into firey death.
On sc trade anything can beat whole game with ease, if you are good enough to buy gear.
i've skipped many leagues now because the main meta skills are hella boring.
Different players have different things matter to them, or different priorities, what makes game "fun" for them.
For example, someone loves to play one single build, and someone loves to try different ones.
Pretty much everyone will play the most boring build if it allows them to beat all content. But nobody is going to play the most fun build ever, if it cant get past yellow maps.
You know that GGG is no longer reading this? They've given up on the league and will ignore everything until it's time to create hype for Archnemesis league 4.0.
This is your 4th league and you have 38 challenges?!
You sure learn fast (and I hope you've had fun too).
I've played since Betrayal, and 20 challenges are my peak, you're good!
That's my take on this game, exactly.
Meta builds make you farm currency faster, kill bosses quicker, reach your high hanging goals faster - but is it fun? Of what use is currency, when it's not earned and spent while having fun?
I'm enjoying my 3.4mdps ice crash berserker and know I won't be able to make it strong and tanky enough to kill all the bosses, but who cares? I'm having fun zooming trough maps and bonking the floor, so that the floor bonks back into the face of my enemies :)
My fun is worth way more than any currency I could ever farm while using builds I don't enjoy.
Don't worry, next league they will nerf it.
Yea worst league ever was my most played because spectral shield throw was so fun
It's a combination of factors that also depends on the player. For me as a trade player the economy is just as a vital part of the equation. For the SSF player I'd assume determinism is about as vital as trade is for me. And so on.
GGG broke most of the vital parts of the game with the AN implementation and following changes to loot and crafting so regardless of how fun the build is a lot of players miss that other vital part for their enjoyment.
I enjoy trade and it has been ...rough
Making cool gear that you cant sell sucks.
Yes fun is... pretty important when gaming.
Playstyle is the number one thing you should look for in a build, then go from there.
Being a slave to the meta and playing something that doesn't feel good for you is the fastest way of burning out.
I like fun builds but once i reach content i cannot do they stop being fun.
Matter more in the sense of bread matters more than steak.
It is a required foundation, but doesn't solely make a game good
That is why I play SST glad bleed in almost every league since Expedition. I love it! Having a blast!
Is it the most zoomie..no
Is it the most tanky...no
Do I have a blast crafting and playing it... Yup!