T O P
whris_cilson

Being mad now and not on release.


Cool-Barber3939

This is called marketing, first come the shit, then the shit doesn't feel as bad when u get something "better shit"


Step-exile

So people go thru grief stages and buy support packs on league start


brodudepepegacringe

Or just not be there in release. XD


reevelainen

In my country, the goverment has a well-known strategy to publish some crazy changes (in numbers), make everyone hate them, but then one of them becomes a hero after "slamming those numbers down" (so the change affecting to citizens is smaller). I mean yes, the tax change (or whatever) is still executed, but it's _not that bad_ anymore, because they managed to soften it a little bit _Aaand we have some good news too!_ And we all believe them, the sheep we are. (excuse my french, not a native speaker)


Internal-Unique

Grief > Bargain > Cope Its pretty brilliant in-terms of PR move. ​ 1) They start with giving you bad news, see what's the acceptance rate, might tune a little following said responses. ​ 2) Follow up with some good stuffs, example the 100 reworked uniques, audience slowly gets overwhelmed with positive vibe ​ 3) By the time league launches, the negative audience would have died down and left/skipping league


Sarm_Kahel

>By the time league launches, the negative audience would have died down and left/skipping league This is exactly what we should want. If someone's unhappy with a game or it's state shouldn't everyone involved want those people to understand that an not play it (including the developers).


brodudepepegacringe

In fact im thankful that we got bad news early, now i wouldn't need to waste my work off days on leaguestart.


Sarm_Kahel

This is exactly it - if you're not going to like the league you'd want to know before you made plans around it. GGG should also want you to know because they don't get much out of getting you to play the league and hating it. So making it clear as fast as possible is a Win-Win.


brodudepepegacringe

Im just hoping that the league is gonna look good, also if they bring ultimatum back, i might consider trying the league or play standard to have funs with my task manager step bro dude


Elemelepipi

And good. All crybabies are your before the league. Excellent.


0nlyRevolutions

Patch notes would do an adequate job of explaining changes and allowing you to plan builds if that was the goal Manifesto is how they justify nerfs haha. (But for real, the point is to explain *why* they are doing things, rather than to just say *what* they are doing). And yeah I assume the timing of this particular one is to get the salt out of the way now, so that by the time the league reveal stream comes around people are over it and ready to be hyped again.


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ploki122

>But for real, the point is to explain *why* they are doing things, rather than to just say *what* they are doing And... why are they nerfing Defiance Banner, but not Determination, if both are running into the same issue, but Determination much more so? And... why are they nerfing RMR and aura effect masteries, if both of those are picked as much or less than +50 Life and 10% inc life masteries? And... why are they nerfing Necromancer's minion affinity, but not Saboteur's trap/mine affinity, and not Hierophant's totem affinity, and nor Berserker's rage affinity? And... why are they nerfing Pathfinder? They didn't actually explain anything. They showed us some nerfs, and then wrote a paragraph that said "we're unhappy about the numbers that are being changed". There's no context to anything, and no further information. If the manifesto's goal is to be high level, why do I need to know that the scion's small Spell Suppression nodes are going from 2% to 3% to compensate the body armor's losing like 8%? Why is it not simply "Spell suppression was planned to be the dexterity version of "reduced duration of element on you. The latter is mostly found on the tree, with some small amounts spread through the tree, while Spell Suppression was being capped with 2-3 pieces of gear and a couple passive points.".


jpylol

I’m convinced this person doesn’t even play poe.


Paragon_Night

Did we read the same thing? The only thing that didn't make sense was the pathfinder nerf. U may not like their decisions but they made sense with what they said their intent was.


ploki122

>U may not like their decisions but they made sense with what they said their intent was Of course the intent made sense, because it was super low-level explanation. "We're reducing the power of Defiance Banner, because the numbers seem too high" There's no explanation there, just a self-fulfilling prophecy.


Paragon_Night

I mean, but its not wrong. Its true the numbers were too fucking high. Any builds that stack aura effect didnt have to spec or invest into generic %. They eluded to these builds in their explanation. Thats why I said what I said. Most of these have explanations that make sense and fit. Its not like their going to specify builds that abused it . \-This response was made while stoned hope its understandable/


ploki122

>Any builds that stack aura effect didnt have to spec or invest into generic %. But... was the problem with Defiance Banner really just aura stacking? Because I don't think that 50%+ of the player base were stacking aura effect... And there's something like 65-75% of the player base running Defiance Banner. So, I'd argue that : There's no other meaningful low-reservation aura to use instead of Defiance Banner. If I have to choose between having +64 useless mana, having +50% Armour/Eva and some crit mit, or giving my ignite fireballer some chance to impale with attacks... the choice is incredibly simple. Now that the bonus is lower, it's still the only usable choice. The fact that everyone and their fucking mother is running Determination + Molten Shell, 2 vastly more busted skills, is making Defiance Banner a lot more appealing. Neither of those 2 getting nerfed means that I'll still run Defiance Banner. With a very reasonable 50% aura effect, you're looking at 75% inc. armor. That's like 1 wheel (5-6 points), so it's kinda nonsense to say that you didn't have to invest into generic %. By that logic, 100% increased defense mod would be on every build ever, and not only ES/Ward. To me, every single thing that could've been said to warrant a nerf to Defiance Banner, was even more applicable for Determination and Molten Shell. Which is why I say that "it's just too good for the investment" is kinda bogus, since there are dozens of other skills in the exact same baskets that leave unscathed.


DuckyGoesQuack

> By that logic, 100% increased defense mod would be on every build ever, and not only ES/Ward. If that mod didn't cost a zillion exalts, it would.


Paragon_Night

Banner skills are in a weird spot. It's not like I don't get what u mean but the problem was it allowed the skill to be your sole source of investment as opposed to an additional piece. Ggg has a history of not liking ayers getting all of a Stat from 1 source. Prob why they nerfed the global defenses mod. Certainly a lot of builds used it to compliment their build but a good amount also used it as the only way to get % Inc. The only builds I can see having an actual argument are minions. They used it to supplement their already pitiful defenses and lack of survivability. I also personally like the change to be more focused on crit but wish it gave reduced crit smg taken as opposed to chance.


ploki122

>Banner skills are in a weird spot. It's not like I don't get what u mean but the problem was it allowed the skill to be your sole source of investment as opposed to an additional piece. I looked at the top 10 raiders who were running Banner, but not Iron Reflex. Once buffs/auras/flasks are up, their armor multiplier is over 1400% on average. Here's the list : |Raider|Armour on gear|Final armour number| |:-|:-|:-| |MAP\_JUICER|1891|31010| |mikanade\_sentinel||1476|31444| |Magnus\_Raider\_Sentinel|0|3930| |DarthDiots|539|15304| |щучьяжабка|1876|26986| |Фло|1375|11548| |Carpincho|1968|29021| |OMEN\_Sent|1530|14365| |Sen\_Ho|1657|18255| |FlickTheMoon|1728|15852| |\~\~ Average \~\~|1404|19772| Btw, 8 out of the 10 ran Determination, and it may come as a surprise to literally no one ever, that they're among the lowest 3 armour totals (Magnus\_Raider\_Sentinel and OMEN\_Sent). Meanwhile, we can take the first Raider with Determination but not Banner, to see if maybe Banner really actually wasn't the issue : |Raider|Armour on gear|Final armour number| |:-|:-|:-| |DampMuffin|0|19137| My god is that telling that maybe having 3 great sources of flat armour (Determination, Granite Flask, and Molten Shell) combine with multiple defensive multipliers (Flask increase mod, Defiance Banner increase, Determination more)... maybe that's an issue? Like... Determination is a 50% pure strength aura. If we just look at the 3 non-strength classes (witch, shadow, ranger), and remove Iron Reflex users, we still have 74% of people running Determination. Who the hell can actually believe in good faith that the aura is balanced?


Paragon_Night

Without looking at their gear I don't feel comfortable Commenting on the numbers. Also, no one is disagreeing that Determ/MS/Granite Is a great combo. However it does require a 50% aura a skill and a flask. I'm also not saying that Defiance is on par. I just think that for a 6~10% aura it was pretty free and powerful. Maybe I'm biased considering the alternatives but it definitely stands out. Or maybe I'm way off base and it was simply really good at its niche. As for the balance of the current defense meta. I feel the issue isn't so much determination as it is the lack of meaningful phys mitigation outside of it. If the new Cloak of Flames and change to gravicius are anything to go by, hopefully we will have more access to phys as ele dmg take. Def an imbalance but the solution currently I feel isn't to neef Determ but give meaningful choices for the other builds. Could have prob done this with defiance as well by giving competitive 10% auras or maybe they really did think it was just that strong.


ploki122

>Or maybe I'm way off base and it was simply really good at its niche. My personal take on it is that it's a 10% aura that's actually useful, which means everyone who has at least 15% unreserved mana will just run it. On top of that, it offers Armour and Evasion, which pretty much every character builds at least 1 of, and it offers slight defense from crit reduction. So basically, it's just a universally good skill, without any major power behind it. >Also, no one is disagreeing that Determ/MS/Granite Is a great combo. However it does require a 50% aura a skill and a flask. Which is the gist of my argument, really : If 75% of characters that don't look like they should be building it are commiting a flask + mod, a skill, and a 50% aura, then there's a massive issue somewhere.


Spreckles450

>why are they nerfing Defiance Banner, but not Determination Cuz Determination costs more to run. Low cost -> low value; Higher cost -> higher value


ploki122

By that logic, Crystallized Omniscience shouldn't get nerfed, it's a chase item, and therefore is nerf-proof, since it has the highest cost. Similarly, Melding of the Flesh required a lot of investment to bring you to 90 max res, and it's getting nerfed. At its core, Defiance Banner got nerfed because it was being run too much, anywhere between 67% and 79% depending on the league. Meanwhile, Determination is being run by 77% to 95% of the players, depending on the league. If Defiance comes with a lower cost (10% reserved vs 50%, more diverse benefits, lower stat requirements), shouldn't it be expected to be run more? A bit like how Molten Shell is being run more than Defiance Banner, since it comes with a smaller cost. Like... it takes a special kind of tool to look at 95% of people on SSFHC running Determination, and not see an issue with that.


Biflosaurus

It's not because defiance was being run too much, but because it provided too much for too little investment, as they stated in the manifesto. And they are right on this one


ploki122

Is Determination not providing too much for too little investment? And, if it's providing adequate power, why are 95% SSFHC builds running it?


MaXiMiUS

Determination had no flat armour on it for over 7 years and saw (as far as I can remember, anyway) consistent sub-1% usage the entire time. Grace and Determination needed to be buffed, it didn't come out of nowhere. The buffs they received in 3.16 weren't even particularly big buffs either. They were mostly buffed indirectly through the global doubled effectiveness of armour and evasion. The *actual* outlier is Molten Shell. Frankly I'm a bit weirded out that it wasn't mentioned in the manifesto. Nerf that and suddenly people won't care about Determination nearly as much, because it no longer gives them one of the strongest "get out of jail free" cards in the entire game. The actual armour scaling is perfectly fine as-is. The reasoning they gave for nerfing Defiance Banner is perfectly valid. It absolutely invalidated normal % increased armour and evasion scaling from the skill tree for a large number of players, homogenizing defenses for builds to a ridiculous degree. It's obviously not a big enough change on its own to shift players away from that, but it is a step in the right direction.


ploki122

>Determination had no flat armour on it for over 7 years and saw (as far as I can remember, anyway) consistent sub-1% usage the entire time. The number was usually higher than that, since it was run by aura stackers for the sake of it, but it was indeed completely abysmal and would've been replaced by any aura that did something instead. >The actual outlier is Molten Shell. Imo, the problem with Molten Shell, Flame Dash and Determination is one and the same : Alternatives are just plain bad. Like... what defenses are you actually gonna start running with that extra 50% mana reservation? Where will you get meaningful phys mitigation, if not from the +2k and \*1.5 aura (both of which get scaled by aura effects)? There's a lot of compounding effect, but all 3 of those skills are pretty much in the bucket of "Nothing else gets the job done". >absolutely invalidated normal % increased armour and evasion scaling from the skill tree for a large number of players, homogenizing defenses for builds to a ridiculous degree. Okay... so now instead of 50% increased armor/evasion is homogenized? Are characters really built around 50% increased armor or evasion? That's like a 3-pointer wheel, and that one comes with benefits. Is the loss of 25% increased armour/evasion gonna actually make characters substantially different? Like... I don't see it. I don't see it at all. Also, what are people gonna start using to block physical damage now, instead of armour... since we're hoping that the banner nerf stops that homogeneity?


MaXiMiUS

>Imo, the problem with Molten Shell, Flame Dash and Determination is one and the same : Alternatives are just plain bad. Sure. Buff them and nerf Molten Shell. It doesn't have to be one or the other exclusively, but it really should happen at some point. It's completely ridiculous how imbalanced guard skills are currently. >Like... what defenses are you actually gonna start running with that extra 50% mana reservation? Where will you get meaningful phys mitigation, if not from the +2k and *1.5 aura (both of which get scaled by aura effects)? >Also, what are people gonna start using to block physical damage now, instead of armour... since we're hoping that the banner nerf stops that homogeneity? Endurance Charges. Arctic Armour. Flesh and Stone. Physical damage taken as X. Chaos Golem. Bone Barrier. Unwavering Faith. Defy Pain. Unbreakable. Immortal Call. Flasks, both magic and unique. Niche uniques like Darkscorn, Dawnbreaker, and Doppelganger Guise. Natural armour on gear. You have options that aren't just "Determination + Defiance Banner + Aura Effect", you're just ignoring them. Some of them are even being buffed this very patch. If Molten Shell wasn't completely overshadowing other guard skills I can guarantee you the majority of these alternatives would seem significantly more appealing, and far more players would choose them (relative to their current usage). 50% mana reservation for Determination is a **big** ask in a world where Molten Shell isn't overwhelmingly superior to say, Steelskin. Defensive auras have to be powerful, they're competing with more damage in a game where killing things instantly invalidates a significant portion of the actual danger. >Okay... so now instead of 50% increased armor/evasion is homogenized? Are characters really built around 50% increased armor or evasion? That's like a 3-pointer wheel, and that one comes with benefits. It was significantly more than that after aura effect, and yes, it absolutely did homogenize things. Especially once you add in a flask suffix for 60%+ increased armour. You could completely ignore armour on the skill tree and still hit 50K+ armour, meaning your location on the actual skill tree was essentially completely irrelevant. Again: this isn't a big enough change on its own to solve this problem, but it is a step in the right direction. People are still going to use Defiance Banner after this change. Hell, **I'm** still going to use it. Even after a 50% nerf it's still powerful for a 10% reservation aura.


ploki122

Banner gave 49% increased armour. Determination gives 2k armour and 49% **more** armour. Now tell me which of these 2 is more homogeneizing when combined with 60% increased armour from flask... another increase, or a bigger base AND a multiplier? At least they remove the compounding issue of Molten Shell ving you another flat amount of armour, and a bigger eHP pool based on armour. They didn't change shit! Also, most of those alternatives you list to auras are either really unreliable (AA/IC) or run in parallel with the auras (flasks and armour on gear).


Biflosaurus

This, you summed up my thoughts with way better English. I don't want to see molten shell nerfed without seeing other guard skills buffed to become relevant. Heck, I don't even want to see molten shell nerfed yet, I want to see them buff other guard, said guard be good AND relevant, and I'm pretty sure it should be enough to make molten shell mass played. And give evasion char a guard skill too


ploki122

I personally thonk that Molten Shell needs a nerf... but it needs a like 5-10% nerf, at which point it would still see 80%+ play since no other guard skill is good : provlem isn't solved.


brownieson

50% base reservation is little investment? With the mana res nerfs, plus defiance banner not synergising as well, determination has indirectly somewhat been nerfed. It will cost more relatively for the same output.


ploki122

Don't you see that literally everything you can say about Defiance Banner also applies to Determination? The mana res nerfs also made Defiance Banner worse, and had they nerfed determination (the biggest outlier), it would've made Defiance Banner worse. 50% mana reservation is a lot, it's probably still overpowered if 95% of characters in a league use it.


Biflosaurus

Defiance banner was a flat 10% reservation, which was giving you 40% more Armour AND evasion. They didn't want to gut defenses, just make us spend more to achieve the same power level. They didn't need to nerf determination, since it will already be hard to run 2 50% auras and a banner without investing much in reservation. And if they nerfed determination people would be here complaining theysm should have nerfed banner instead


ploki122

It gave you 49% INCREASED Armour and Evasion. Like... it's not even remotely the same scope of power.


erpunkt

I feel like increasing the reservation cost would have been the better solution. Since the rmr mastery is also being removed, the most likely consequence might be that people just scrap defiance banner and call it a day. With an increased cost, people would have to make a choice between their defensive Auras, while defiance would still be interesting enough


Spreckles450

>I feel like increasing the reservation cost would have been the better solution. That kind of defeats the purpose of banners though. Banners are supposed to be low cost, low value auras that you can run for a little bit more benefit. Compared to War Banner and Dread Banner, Defiance Banner was giving WAY too much value for such a low cost aura.


erpunkt

>Banners are supposed to be low cost, Looking at it this way, I have to agree. Unfortunately, with the upcoming changes it will be a no-choice to make up for the loss of rmr instead of a low cost choice.


Scabchewer1

Manifesto is 'just the tip'


Paragon_Night

To explain their reasoning without bloating patch notes. That's it, it's simple.


Asteroth555

For PR reasons So players' anger over terrible patch notes is muted over time


Cyberpunkcatnip

Basically this, get this stuff out early so by the time the hype train arrives we are more excited about the new stuff


Xzarg_poe

Manifesto is there to explain their reasoning for the main changes. Patch notes are just dry list of changes. Which they haven't finalized yet.


Xeratas

i get that, but whats the upside for players? most peole seem unhappy right now, not realy a good upside


thundermonkeyms

Upside is ideally we can give feedback. Of course, ten individual threads screaming about how GGG sucks isn't feedback no matter how much people in here think it is.


verilius21a

Word. This is one of rhe most toxic and entitled subs that I belong to. The amount of batching and moaning that people so is incredible.


Alhoon

They wouldn't exist if moderators actually did their job and didn't have the utterly retarded "let upvotes and downvotes fix that" stance, as it quite clearly hasn't ever worked on any sub.


Xeratas

Yes we can give feedback, but as my title states, isn't the feedback more or less either hate or "can't realy tell much yet, need patchnotes to judge" i mean maybe they find valueable feedback between all the hate, but i havn't seen much constructive


thundermonkeyms

That's what I mean. The vocal minority of this subreddit that resurfaces every spoiler season to ruin everyone's fun doesn't know how to express themselves in a normal way, and instead goes way too hard on the hate rather than real feedback like "the mana reservation mastery removal is a blanket nerf to 1%'ers and noobs alike, and does nothing to actually solve build diversity" but then claims that it's legitimate feedback anyway. There are plenty of people in here giving real feedback like that, and GGG does see it. But it's also getting drowned out by bullshit rage posts that all say the same dumb thing over and over.


psychomap

I don't know if they literally pay people to do that, but they actually should pay people to just go through all the feedback and try to find the constructive and usable responses. I've been fairly active on reddit since the manifesto dropped, and there are quite a few reasonable people among the more vocal groups of "the game is dead now" and "patch notes might still fix everything". And even if the feedback isn't objective, it still gives them something to work with. E.g. my main complaints were that with brittle nerfed I can't make 0% crit builds into 100% crit builds anymore and with flask charges when hit being nerfed I can't make non-Olroth's perma ward (despite the investment that would have been necessary even with 7 charges per hit). It's entirely possible that in the grand scheme, nerfing brittle and those flask mods turn out to be appropriate, but through this feedback they can become aware of what else it affects. And then they can either decide that those build ideas that I had do not mesh with the design of the game or eventually come up with some form of compensation that would still facilitate those types of builds without the individual mechanics being overpowered.


Spreckles450

>I don't know if they literally pay people to do that, but they actually should pay people to just go through all the feedback and try to find the constructive and usable responses. Im sure Bex and other community team members do just that as part of their jobs


psychomap

They do more than that, but I'm pretty sure you could spend a full time job just doing that - at least in the weeks leading up to and following a release.


badheartveil

There can be very nuanced feedback but some of the proposed changes don’t need very much feedback at all, based on how well each solution solves the problem statement. Causal analysis is the part where we don’t have any control, and it could be argued that our feedback will have limited influence, especially considering that as a whole, we are largely untrained in understanding the state of the game in a month or a year from now. There are a few elites out there who can take this large document, extrapolate the ideas that are not appropriate, and potentially provide solutions that may not be used right now, but can be iterated on in the future. Stuff that’s not useful (what a dogshit is) can still be useful in terms of metrics by letting the team know what is being mentioned the most. Keep in mind the launch is close, and the closer we get, the less likely changes will occur, especially changes that are harder to implement. It may be jarring to hear but they see more than you see and you don’t have any control over what they decide to do.


verilius21a

Word. This is one of rhe most toxic and entitled subs that I belong to. The amount of batching and moaning that people so is incredible.


Xzarg_poe

We get to know some of the main changes before hand. We get to know why they are being made. People are always unhappy when something gets nerfed, there is no avoiding that.


j13jonas

The upside can be that, people are mad now, when the patch notes drop, people will be looking for what's different. Why have a stream that is filled with nerf announcements, when you can do that before and focus the stream(that more people see than the manifesto) on the positive side of the new league


twitticles

> most peole seem unhappy right now, not realy a good upside It's extremely important to keep in mind that the opinions you're reading and hearing represent a very small fraction of the playerbase. The vast majority of players never post an opinion on reddit, and those who do and wait for the complete changes to be posted also aren't making their voices heard right now. That doesn't mean everyone who doesn't publicly disagree take the opposite stance, it just means you should never draw conclusions about a large group based on a vocal subset of that group.


xDoga

Not true. 3.15 had the similar reactions and it showed itself on the retention rates. Big chunk of the player base stopped playing after 2 weeks. And they had to buff lots of things at 3.16 to make it up.


twitticles

> Not true. What isn't true, that reddit is only a subset of the entire playerbase? A subset can also still have a significant influence on the whole, which does in no way contradict what I wrote. 3.15 (Expedition) and 3.16 (Scourge) had the exact same retention at the two-week mark. Most leagues follow a fairly similar pattern. https://poedb.tw/us/League#LeagueChart


Vaevicti5

Your comparing things backwards. Expedition, scourge, archnem all fall off harder (have 10% less retention) than Ultimatum or any league before it. Blight, Synthesis, ie the bad leagues etc, etc have better retention than the post 3.15 ones. The correlations of reddit scream volume to retention does bear out for that instance.


Masteroxid

500k subs isn't a fucking small fraction in a very niche game. This sub is considered an official forum by GGG and it has led to many changes in the game


twitticles

> 500k subs 500k people are not actively posting their opinions, so it's contextually irrelevant. The opinions of a few hundred or thousand active posters do not neccessarily reflect those of the entire playerbase of several hundred thousand players.


Masteroxid

In the same way that other bigger forums have people that don't post their opinions.. Reddit works through upvotes and downvotes, even if people don't always write their opinion they can express it through upvoting. You're delusional if you think POE is that big of a game apart from the first few days of a new league. As I said before, 500k subs for a niche game is massive and if you think this sub is a very small fraction of the playerbase you're very ignorant


twitticles

> Reddit works through upvotes and downvotes, even if people don't always write their opinion they can express it through upvoting. Certainly, so let's use that instead. The top voted thread since the character balance announcement I found is [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/pathofexile/comments/wepluw/ggg_what_exactly_do_you_want_players_to_do/). It has as of right now 3720 upvotes and is 85% upvoted so, assuming reddit doesn't do any weird math (I know it adds a few hidden flat votes to new posts, which shouldn't skew the total by any noticeable degree), 4376 total votes. Peak record players after league launch is 270k but it's propably been a bit lower recent leagues. Total number of unique yet active players is certainly far higher, but let's use a very conservative estimate of 200k active players every new league. 4376 votes out of 200k players is 2.2%. That is, by any conceivable definition, "a very small fraction of the playerbase". Further, my argument centered around judging the opinion of all players based on those posting their opinion here - and that is, by your own admission, an even smaller fraction. >As I said before, 500k subs for a niche game is massive and if you think this sub is a very small fraction of the playerbase you're very ignorant I never made an argument based on the total subscribers on this sub. **You** were the one who brought up that metric, and I pointed out it's contextually irrelevant as I never based any argument on that metric but on the number of actively posting players.


LonSik

> most peole seem unhappy right now Read less reddit, friend.


Fictitious1267

You have to slowly turn up the heat, or the frogs will jump out of the pot.


Kaelran

> whats the upside for players It's not for the players, it's so the announcement can be all hype and people forget about the manifesto and buy the supporter packs that come in right at the end of the announcement.


CrimsonBlizzard

You will almost never make the majority of the player base happy for one reason or another. Let's say that GGG decided to do a 20% across the board increase to under used skill gems with a promise to change how some skills work that DPS isn't the problem. A lot of players would be happy because new meta most likely, but the people who just want new content/gems might be angry that there's nothing new for them. Let's say we added new content also, some players might cry that it'll be like 9 months without new gems/new builds that are usually a result of new gems or in rare cases new items. The 100% chaos spark alt quality gem being one from last league. You can't just say people will be unhappy/mad/whatever and just not do it. That's like saying I won't take out the trash because it'll ruin my mood. I'm super unhappy with how they've been treating minions recently as a minions main since open beta, but I'll hold back since if the way I want to enjoy the game isn't reasonable for myself, I just won't play. If the amount of investment I'm willing to provide isn't enough for the level of enjoyment I seek, I'll just walk away. Of note I'm one of the high tier players with 100x+ every league before I quit few weeks in usually.


ashkanz1337

This is not true. I had no issues with the manifesto, and thus I had no reason to make a post about it. The small subset of people who are either very mad or very happy *usually* make the response posts.


elting44

The 'upside for the players' is the opportunity to express feedback about potentially game breaking changes in time for GGG to fix them. But the more important upside, is the financial upside for GGG. They get all the negative reaction out of the way before the announcement, so that by the time the announcement stream hits, no one cares about nerfs anymore, they are hyped for the new league, and willing to buy supporter packs which are release directly following the stream.


spiderdick17

Angry people comment the most so we don't really know if most people in the PoE community at large are upset or not. Bitching, misinformation , hyperbole and rage shoot to the top of this sub like a rocket so I'm not sure how useful this subreddit is when determining the PoE communities actual feelings toward changes. I would say the most useful thing you will get from this subreddit around manifesto or patches is getting to see insane amounts of the Dunning-Kruger effect in action.


DroIvarg

I tell my 9y stepson 15m prior that he has to turn of the xbox. So has 15m to process that he has to quit the game. This is not out of respect. This is a tactical psychology strategy. Because if I dont. Tantrums increase A LOT. 15min prior as a warning. He is way more chill about it. I think this is the same strategy. Because poe players on reddit really be like this.


LnDxLeo

Everything just shows once again that some part of people just react way nicer if information is presented in pleasing form. Even if it is misleading. So I think GGG just wants to see the *feedback* before dropping patchnotes.


Spirited_Scallion816

It's always like that. Every single time


MrPluszu

I am happy tho.


WarpedNation

Because if they didnt post, the community would then complain "GGG doesnt talk to us anymore, do they even care about their game"


glitchfact0ry

I'm not sad or mad, just a bit disappointed cause I was expecting a significant meta shakeup.


elting44

Step 1 -Balance manifesto - Players grumpy cause GGG is taking away our toys! Step 2 -Announcement Stream - GGG shows us shiny new thing that makes us excited for new toy, players excited! Step 3 -Supporter packs go on sale. Everyone excited, so they are more willing to spend more.


SekhaitReal

If GGG don't post something, people will be mad / sad that they didn't release anything and the rest will say "wait for patch notes". By posting something, they at least avoided mad posts about not communicating to the community.


mbxyz

the manifesto is just a description of the state of balance in the game and planned attempts to amend it. patch notes don't have information about why they do things--they're just notes. as for why everyone acts like five year olds with brain damage every time it gets posted, unlucky i guess.


Korial216

True,the adult Reaction would be to just leave and never Look back


0000void0000

Defiance banner needed a nerf.


Silent_Environment48

To explain balance changes?


Masteroxid

They sure as hell explained that +2 radius to cleave


Sarm_Kahel

If you need an explanation on why cleave needs more radius...oh boy.


Masteroxid

I'm talking about their thoughts behind only giving it a fucking +2 radius


Sarm_Kahel

I'm fully aware of that, but I think looking at a 8000 word manifesto breaking down the logic behind hundreds of patch notes and saying "They don't explain enough" is pretty crazy. Yeah there are specific pieces of info we don't have but "why is cleave not getting more than +2 raidus" is hardly the first thing I would ask them to add to this document if I could and yet it's one of the most talked about changes on this list and I actually play Cleave pretty frequently.


Masteroxid

It's talked about the most because it's a melee skill and it's pathetic how bland the change is considering that everybody's been asking for melee buffs for over year It's just a meme, not that cleave in particular is special


Sarm_Kahel

An increase to radius is more interesting than damage/attack speed (which is what most people are insisting it needs) and range is one of cleaves biggest problems. The fact that people chose that skill to meme just shows how poorly thought out the complaining is. I would have picked literally any other skill in that list to meme on. The whole appeal of cleave IS that it's a simple 'hit the enemy with your sword" skill, it's only problem is that it's weak.


Masteroxid

That skill will never see the light of the day without a buff to single target dps. Many good skills have a mechanic that helps single target dps, cleave is just a wide single attack, nothing special at all, why would you ever use it over lightning strike? The 80% attack speed factor is also idiotic


Sarm_Kahel

So interesting = good damage? or interesting = better than lightning strike? The word you're looking for is 'powerful'. And no, cleave is not powerful and it probably never will be because of how it's designed. And that's fine. Does it need more than +2 range? I think so, but if you're talking about making it a skill that hits the whole screen and competes with meta skills for damage that probably isn't ever going to happen so I don't' know why we're even talking about it.


D2Tempezt

The skill already has closer to 240% effectiveness. It's also better to do buffs incrementally.


Masteroxid

LS has 225% effectiveness, more base damage, Vaal skill, no idiotic 80% attack speed multiplier and the ability to double your dps via additional strike targets. Cleave is just a shitty aoe basic attack


drjanitor91

The opinion of this sub is not representative for the general poe player. "Everyone" isn't sad. I like nerfs.


thundermonkeyms

Because game balance doesn't take feelings into account. The intention of the manifesto is never to cause salt, but reddit likes to rage over things. I feel like what you might be questioning more is why release it as early as they do, if it'll just cause salt before the patch notes and new skill reveals? It's so they could get feedback on things they might have missed. In this case a good example is people critiquing how weird it is that they felt the need to nerf minions being too good with necromancer, when it's literally the necromancer. "Are they going to nerf saboteur next because it's too good with traps?" etc. The manifesto IS a first overview of the next patch, and we CAN start to plan a direction we want to go for next league. For me after seeing the suppression changes I know that I probably want my build to have access to the right side of the tree, and after seeing the melding changes I know that I want to consider alternatives to it (assuming Ultimatum is actually coming back for example, I've been dying to do a mahuxotl's/tempered by war build). EDIT: more thoughts.


ErrorLoadingNameFile

Actual the manifesto is EXACTLY for feelings. So the hard feelings go down by the time we can buy supporter packs.


Xeratas

I understand your point. But maybe there will be a lot of other Changes that make spellsupression not as important as before. As the manifesto only contains player related balances. we have no idea what monster balance looks like yet. So not sure if planning around supression just because of manifesto is a good idea yet.


thundermonkeyms

Sure, maybe. But like you said, the manifesto should be a preview of what to expect and this is a preview. We still have to see new uniques and skills, which will change a lot of stuff. Look how many building options opened up when they introduced Impossible Escape and Sublime Vision, for example.


Chocolatine_Rev

Don't be so quick to assume "everyone" is either sad or mad, it's only the poeple that have a problem with it that voice their opinion, meanwhile some poeple try to lessen their anger/pain ( the wait for patchnotes peoples) I can understand some people being angry or sad, personnaly I'm totally fine with what they are doing, and i think when you see a post of someone going "huhu +2 cleave melee buff wtf ggg" they are just unhappy cause what they wanted isn't what they got, understandable, but not representative of everyone at all


sirgog

TBH I expected larger nerfs than this. Didn't expect them to mention the buffs to underused skills here (I expected about this number in the patch, just not in the manifesto)


orehcro

Reddit isn’t “almost everyone?”


Sarm_Kahel

You're right, but it does feel that way sometimes.


79215185-1feb-44c6

GGG marketing cycle so content creators can make money from creating videos.


jacky910505

Reddit is sad/mad no matter what GGG do.


PaintPositive3920

Because like they said in manifesto they wait for feedback so they may revert some announced changes?


aestil

This basically doesn't happen and thinking it will is copium at it's finest


Mr_Creed

It lets people know what items to buy out in the temp league for standard league RMT


NeekoBestTomato

Because otherwise reddit is mad.


Unhappy-Relation-338

sometimes i think GGG wants the manifesto to be as toxic as it could be so it could generate noise,


Dradar

Who said everyone is sad or mad? My favorite minion build got a huge buff, it’s just the upset people who are the loudest


Roborabbit37

The vocal minority on Reddit is not everyone.


SirCorrupt

This may be wishful thinking, but maybe GGG wants to see the community reaction to see if they need to make additional changes prior to launch and patch notes. But yeah this one did a pretty poor job cause they didn’t introduce anything new or exciting that we can look forward to, just nerfs..


SnooPeppers6401

Some human sub species just like to rant, argue, bitch, drama, being right, thinking they are right, championing "truths", this is the outlet provided. To be fair they are not normally wrong,they just didn't get info of the big picture yet. I just belong to the drama watchers while quietly try to make better of the changes. And to be fair, if the changes are overwhelming, we will quietly move on till another league comes by, or move on. Also, there are more human sub species around than the modifiers exist in poe that's impossible to spell out all of it, just, enjoy the drama for now.


orangutantrm88

"GGG needs to communicate more" - this sub a month ago


wangofjenus

Gives them time to gauge feedback and tweak numbers so people aren’t as mad on release.


swaydex

Manifesto's used to describe the goals GGG have with upcoming balance changes, not list the changes themselves. This technically was not a balance manifesto...


aleeylee

Pre-patch notes player ~~rant~~ feedback assessment


Zibzarab

Building up interest for upcoming league. Creating discussions about the game. Advertisment.


Japanczi

I think they got pretty lost in their new manifesto format. It's semi patch-notey, but neither does it serve purpose of a free text nor changelog. Neither does it explain context well nor does it give enough details.


ZachTheApathetic

Hype


ocombe

it's because they throw the nerfs first, see how people react, and quickly patch the worst things. That's why we don't have the patch notes yet, they want to see what the players think so that they can fix it, or at least some it.. And then they can say: see, it was our ideas all along !


xono89

It's the peo cycle that's present every time a new league gets announced. I'm pretty sure we get alot of new power creep with the new league.


Grim47z

I believe its to outline direction and make changes based on reactions also people will point out things overlooked.


Alkyen

I think the point of the manifesto is not to be "EARLY PATCH NOTES" but it is there to explain certain balance decisions beforehand. It gives the community a good chance to identify some potentially big mistakes and alert GGG so they can adjust it earlier. And in that sense, the manifesto is just a sanity check for GGG. It's not supposed to be replacement for the hype around patch notes.Of course, the fact that a manifesto also gives the community more time to get over the 'uhh, my shit was nerfed' feeling is a nice bonus. Personally I'm fine with the way it currently is, maybe only GGG should have like a disclaimer in the beginning about the point of the manifesto.


GlibGlobC137

Copium takes time to take effect.


ravagraid

After last league where there was lmao gonna be no change to player power but we got fucked indirectly and all the other leagues I've seen so far I'm just not playing unless people are suddenly saying it's overwhelmingly fun. Like despite the build a rare or four league mechanic being underwhelming the atlas was amazing. Sentinel didn't have that for me.


Kryobit

So that you know that Necro is useless now and auras are taking a hit.


Tbaggelicious

I see the manifesto as a way for GGG to get feedback on balance changes from the community and based on that, either keep the changes in or adjust it based on our reactions.


moe51988

It's provocative, it gets the people going!


TrixieH0bbitses

Would you rather heighten expectations and then fail to meet them? Or lower expectations and then surpass them?


Quackmandan1

The manifesto told me SRS are getting 38%MORE damage on the gem alone. That was great news. I was not mad, nor was I sad. I can use my bees mtx again. I now have a league starter. The manifesto wasn't all bad news. People just love overreacting to nerfs. Some parts like the mana changes were frustrating but as a whole it wasn't a bad manifesto.


sunklunk

It should be for announcing big changes to underperforming ascendencies/skills and yet it has just become a long list of nerfs. It is fine to announce nerfs to abused/vastly overpowered things but seriously minor number changes to a couple skill gems are not going to get anyone excited about a league. What GGG doesn’t realize/or maybe don’t care about is that the very popular skills are that way because of league balancing and the vast amount of skills that are unplayable without ridiculous investment (and are still weaker than other skills). Seriously nerfing fire trap…that skill is boring af but the damage is needed for content so people used it. Nerfing omni when it was one item that made playing unpopular skills viable with the high investment…clearly they don’t understand what’s going on in their game with the actual player base


D2Tempezt

You don't have to be salty or confused. Most of the changes were in the right direction. Yes I wouldn't have balanced some of the things the way they did, but at least its moving in the right direction.


BelleColibri

The point is that Reddit morons need something to rage at.


Spazmatic206

T1


funkhero

I just don't understand why they don't release them together.


NoSweatWarchief

So they can hype you up again with promises of 100 unique buffs that will ultimately feel lackluster.