T O P
Nightstormy

Close reddit


Grim47z

This is a great tip in general.


Pjatteri

Or switch to r/pathofexilebuilds


fluxje

Pretty much this, I learned 1-2 years ago I should avoid this subreddit as much as possible 2 weeks before league launch until 2 weeks after. 95% is gonna be a memefest, or people raging for the sake of raging. Just get the information you want, decide if you want to play the league and enjoy. Later come back and the subreddit is a much more pleasant place to be in


Sarm_Kahel

I have huge issues doing this. Engaging with the community around an online RPG is a big part of what I enjoy about online games but constant complaining and negativity really takes the edge off the experience. You can avoid the public forums around the game (Like reddit or official developer forums) but eventually that negativity works it way into every discord/guild/group. It's like the people complaining wont be happy until all online discourse about the game is either changed to support their complaints or shut down to prevent anyone from getting the idea that the game is any good.


coolhentai

I agree, but also the community is a big part of the game too - its depressing seeing everyone bitch and cry over petty shit and changes. They act like such children whining when they don't get what they want. Game is over tuned right now, stuffs gonna get brought down, why do people care so much. Play.


Heinxeed

Look, aside from those "GGG sucks, I'm never playing PoE again" posts, that's why we are here, among other things of course. They even take reddits comments into consideration, believe it or not There are things that should definitelly be adressed: +2 cleave radius is a downright insult. The overall nerfs aren't even that bad, some changes are weird or inneficient (sniper Mark and Wind dancer) and other like Unnatural Strentgh just sucks in general regardless if needed or not


BellacosePlayer

For the most part, I agree with you. We all want the game to be good, and unfortunately we all have different ideas of how GGG needs to accomplish that. Though there's a lot of "I haven't played since Harvest..." folks giving opinions who I think should probably just get over it at this point if it's been that long since the game's been good for them. Move on. Not every game will keep your attention forever.


Deonix

> We all want the game to be good, and unfortunately we all have different ideas of how GGG needs to accomplish that. And that's why I prefer Chris' vision. Not because it's perfect, but because reddit's vision is much, much worse.


Myzzreal

Lol, I tried to imagine "PoE if reddit made it" and all I can see is infinite power creep, teleporting and instagibbing everything in a map in a matter of seconds with cute anime minions following you around and picking up all the loot and automatically posting it to an auction house for you


Oopomopoo2

Problem: players feel that some skills lack mobility Solution: flickering strike is now a support gem


welpxD

I miss the days when wisdom scrolls dropped one by one. Reddit really threw the baby out with the bath water on that one.


bonesnaps

I think reddit bitching was what actually got that changed to drop in stacks, along with archnemesis mods being wildly, wildly overtuned and being nerfed after awhile (which they professed was "extensively tested").


SingleInfinity

Even a broken clock is right twice a day. Jokes aside, Reddit does sometimes have valid criticism that doesn't boil down to "game should be easier so Jimmy 3 hours a week can complete pinnacle content". There's also a *lot* of "I joined the game when GGG was constantly power creeping and the game I want is the one where I'm a god for 8 chaos". I really like Chris' vision. ThatsWhyImHere.jpg. I share a lot of opinions with what GGG wants for the game. It was really disheartening seeing the game stray so far from it. It was still compelling to play because of the depth, but not as good as it could've been. I'm glad they're going back to their vision rather than continuing to capitulate. Does that mean Reddit is always wrong? No. I still would much prefer if the current vocal reddit crowd didn't guide the direction of the game, because ultimately I think they're pushing for a game that is basically the same experience as every other ARPG available.


velourethics

Luckily soon you can play hardmode. Or PoE "directors cut". I think they should remove all recent QoL features from that as well as those are definitely not Chris Vision. And maybe the rest of the game can finally move on from the drag that is a 10 year old vision of a game that does not exist anymore.


adreeasa

They can accomplish however they want to, but it needs to make some sort of sense....Lately their manifests seem to be written in a coffee break so their word quota set by upper management.


Sarm_Kahel

>There are things that should definitelly be adressed: +2 cleave radius is a downright insult. This perspective is so wrong. Yes the change to the skill is insufficient to make it a skill most players are willing to use (much less compete with meta skills) but describing it as some kind of gauntlet slap is actually fucking crazy. It's a minor patchnote in a \~8000 word manifesto alongside dozens of other skill tweaks and it's not even a bad change - just an insufficient one. The +2 radius to cleave buff is not "Something that should definitely be addressed". Getting cleave into a good spot is not some massive priority, and the change they're making isn't something we'd want them to reverse. It's just a minor detail that a ton of people have latched onto. Like, think this through - out of all the things going on with the game balance, is Cleave of all things really where you want them spending their time and effort right now? Does it deserve to have 4 posts on the front page at all times?


drumberg

I mostly play mostly summoners and I think everything’s gonna be fine.


LumaTheLostStar

I started in Ritual League and after having a difficult (but fun!) time I decided to check out this subreddit just before Ultimatum. Literally the worst idea. lol Honestly, this is all I know this place to be like pre-league. While all these people say the game is dead and players are being nerfed into the ground. I’ve only been doing better and getting stronger each league, while NOT being a “meta-slave” like a lot say you have to be. The complaints about Sentinel were so crazy it felt like I was playing a completely different game. Didn’t die anymore than I usually did, got to maps before any of the major nerfs to AN hit, idk it just felt like league start. It’s really odd on here sometimes.


Deonix

> I started in Ritual League and after having a difficult (but fun!) time I decided to check out this subreddit just before Ultimatum. Literally the worst idea. lol In Ultimatum, people had reason to complain. My friend's game crashed 100+ times, mine 45+ times, then we stopped counting. But it's only one league and even then it didn't justify what people were saying to the developers. I think that PoE has one of the best communities, but the subreddit is just trash, especially at the beginning of the league.


LumaTheLostStar

I was eluding to the harvest nerfs. That was my very first impression of this subreddit. Veterans threatening to quit, “dead game”, “GGG is braindead”, “a discord server cant be the endgame”. It was really disheartening to me because I just started enjoying the game. Then a couple of leagues had passed and then I realized “oh they do this every patch lol” This subreddit is the best when the league is a month or so old and its just people posting crafts, drops, or builds or whatever.


Comfortable_Water346

He said he visited the subreddit just before ultimatum, not after it started. I remember it too, how absurdly negative everyone was after the livestream. People here are never happy.


xanap

Good Sir, this is a recurring event when GGG is trying to optimize their engine. Normally at, or just before, a league start. It is just a different group of hardware that gets hit every time. I was hit twice so far, in heist and this league before the rollback. There is no feedback on the forum for technical issues but you can bring about a rollback on reddit if enough people come together. OP wrote a lot of nonsense about hate when there is mostly criticism, feedback, disappointment, hype or memes. We all want the game to be better and most of us have different ideas about it. Doesn't mean we have to sit there in silence when stuff does not work or balance is an issue.


long_schlong_123

In my opinion if they made their manifesto give good reason for nerfs people wont be rioting when it dropped like for example no one complained in the past 3 leagues about much from what i remember everyone was hyped about scourge more in the manifesto week than after announcement


xanap

Yes, they did it deliberately this way. My guess is that they want to build up the old hype train from this point on. Why else post the unique rework news the day after?


CoolPractice

The history of nerfing things don’t affect you because you’ve literally only been playing for a year and a half. So yeah the complaints wouldn’t make that much sense since you’ve been fortunate enough to have played through two of the best leagues in modern PoE (3.13 and 3.17).


LumaTheLostStar

I’m talking about the last year and a half of changes. According to the people complaining, PoE has never been in a worse state. I started playing exactly when the game started “going in the wrong direction” so you’d think I’d at least be an Ritual/Ultimatum boomer and be right along side people complaining. In reality, I’ve been having fun with PoE every league, primarily with the new content. I haven’t noticed much of any increase in difficulty, only that I’ve gotten better at the game. But I guess all some people wanna do is week 1 delete Height of Hubris Feared at lvl 74 with junk rares and a tabula, just so they can come here and complain about “no content”. lol


Aerlys

You haven't because you weren't there were it all started. Despite all of that, you managed to pump 1600 hours of PoE in 5 leagues so you're far from the average joe here. You weren't there when they buffed magic, rares and uniques mobs to what they were before AN mods were added on top of it all. People complained because 3.15 put them back to kindergarten without even trying to revert these previous buffs to monster life & damage. Damage was partially changed with defense buffs, which was long overdue but had to wait for GGG to notice that 3.15 was a huge fail on their part. This led to Chris mentioning that they shouldn't nerf something and wait to fix it another time but do everything at the same time. Is there people that want easymode "I clear everything in one week on 5c budget" level of game ? Probably, not a lot though. Most of these people played this game before you needed 3 min to kill a Trickster Consecration rare.


cumquistador6969

Pretty sure this is actually much nicer than usual, as this manifesto was a little generally mild. It's either that or it just looks nice to me because I've blocked nearly every hardcore streamer fanboy, not really sure which since the streamer post comment sections are mostly empty for me now lmao.


whris_cilson

Are you unable to read criticism without your opinion being affected? I honestly don't see the issue with people sharing their disdain for a lackluster manifesto. In fact I would only start to worry when people start clapping 5% changes to underused skills.


DevRW

I think your first point is an unfair take. If you hang around a bunch of negative people, you'll start to have a negative opinion on things. Likewise with positivity. There's a difference between providing balanced criticism and unbridled rage *(which is a social media problem in general; rage gets the most attention)*. If every post you see is "game sucks, game dead, fuck ggg", it's pretty understandable to start having negative feelings about the game. I'm not saying everything has to be sunshine and rainbows, either - but existing on any extreme is unhealthy for a community. My suggesstion to OP: subscribe to /r/pathofexilebuilds for more reasonable and nuanced discussions - though it is limited to build discussion *(as implied)*. Avoid this subreddit until after league launch - it usually gets better by then.


Arianity

> If you hang around a bunch of negative people, you'll start to have a negative opinion on things. Likewise with positivity. Eh, to a degree. I spend a good amount of time on poe reddit, I don't feel like it hurts how I feel about the game. That said, if it *does* bother you (and that's totally reasonable. It definitely can bother people, just saying it's not guaranteed and everyone has different thresholds).. honestly, just spend less time on reddit. There's no reason to feel obligated to putting yourself through something that makes you feel worse. Also, I haven't tried it myself, but some people have recommended blocking a few of the shit-stirrers. Seems to clear up a lot of it.


ilsenz

>Also, I haven't tried it myself, but some people have recommended blocking a few of the shit-stirrers. Seems to clear up a lot of it. Perhaps it is impossible, due to the size of the sub (I only just saw yesterday we are closing in on half a million users here now) but I really wish we did not have to do that, I don't like silencing any element of the discussion. Even in anger, people have a point to make. We just seem to have reached a point where the anger is repeated and built up into very innacurate complaints and it dominates the sub. Whilst leaving, or muting the worst posters would probably help, it feels like a pretty sad solution. I lost track yesterday of how many completely, verifiably wrong takes are upvoted to the heavens because it fits the current mood of the sub, accuracy be damned. The anger here takes on a life of it's own and people are too busy furiously jacking each other off to recognize it.


Skydogg5555

ya i've lost hope in the moderation here, i just have had to ignore using RES because reddits block feature is literal garbanzo, its sad that its come to this but i guess its my reality now. :/


Masteroxid

> If you hang around a bunch of negative people, you'll start to have a negative opinion on things. You aren't hanging around with people, this is the internet and everybody is a stranger. It's not like we have a tight knit community in here or something where everybody knows everybody. If your opinions are swayed so easily then that's a you issue


D2Tempezt

You don't think sentiment in online communities affect peoples views?


whris_cilson

If you are a sheep maybe. Why do you care about what some randos on the internet think? Even in all the rage is valid criticism, you just gotta look a bit harder into what this person tries to say under all the spewing bilis. There's always gonna be hate close to a new league, somehow this seems to be new info for everyone despite the same cycle repeating since 2013.


[deleted]

[удалено]


whris_cilson

Maybe on some other context, but a fucking subreddit? Give me a break. 98% of the people whining and complaining will still be queueing on launch day, what does that tell you?


[deleted]

[удалено]


whris_cilson

If you say so. I'm gonna play regardless, the question is for how long and how much I will enjoy it, but you could say the same for all previous leagues. Social media usually implies no anonymity, you can't extrapolate from that to an anonymous board.


thundermonkeyms

Rage is not valid criticism. Since the manifesto came out I've seen comments such as "Chris and everyone who makes this game deserve to be homeless," "manifesto sucks dick," and "league dead on arrival." Tell me those are just as valid as stuff like "unholy might for minions is weird and underpowered to have on an ascendancy" and "pathfinder/jugg changes are underwhelming and here are the reasons why" and I'll laugh at you.


Skydogg5555

thanks for trying to knock some sense into these people, its probably all for nothing but at least you are trying lmfao


whris_cilson

Rage is not valid criticism, but if you read beyond the hate, you can see stuff like: Chris and everyone who makes this game deserve to be homeless: Chris and GGG are out of touch and are ruining this game. manifesto sucks dicks: manifesto only contains nerfs, buffs are underwhelming league dead on arrival: given the current manifesto, league is not looking very good.


brownieson

As DevRW said, sharing your opinion if you don’t agree with the changes is not the issue here. It’s the “fuck GGG, they don’t care about game, etc” that is unwarranted and unhelpful. Constructive criticism is always good and I think GGG would be more inclined to take it on board if it wasn’t pure vitriol.


whris_cilson

You are not always gonna get constructive criticism. The problem is not the nerfs, despite some being completely moronic 'we have created this class, aptly named Necromancer for summoners' 'no stop! don't everybody use the class we have designed for summoners as summoners!' The real problem is bad or lack of communication, each league is the same. They say they've learn and make the same mistakes. Path of Nerfs, had one of the best if not the best damage control introductions I've ever seen. >**As developers, we're not afraid to nerf game elements that are too powerful and are harming Path of Exile. Unfortunately, patch notes are not the best way to communicate these nerfs, because their format and information density makes it hard to include sufficient explanation.** > >**In today's manifesto, we have highlighted and explained most of the significant nerfs in 3.1.0. Of course, there are plenty of buffs in 3.1.0 as well, but we'll leave those as pleasant surprises in tomorrow's full patch notes.** Boom, clear and concise, 'you are about to get fuck, but don't worry we brought vaseline', also tomorrow you get to rest. This time though, you get rammed from behind multiple times and you end up crying in the bathroom. A few lines could've prevented so much unbridled hate and whining.


brownieson

I agree with your points, and what you’ve just posted is a well thought out and useful criticism. I’m not happy with the manifesto, and I know others aren’t either, my problem is with the people that criticise just to be nasty and hateful. That’s what makes this a negative environment.


SingleInfinity

> A few lines could've prevented so much unbridled hate and whining. Only if those lines were basically appeasement. The reality? GGG needs to nerf things to undo power creep. There aren't going to be compensatory buffs to make something else the new OP.


Ultiran

Seems like an excuse rather than trying to adapt like no mans sky did for feedback. Its the internet you have to expect it in some form. You cant just blame the wide internet for shutting out the good discussion thats also there. I do have to say GGG did a good job of fracturing the community into "defenders" and "attackers" of GGG.


Sarm_Kahel

>I do have to say GGG did a good job of fracturing the community into "defenders" and "attackers" of GGG. How exactly did GGG do this? People who were angry over time got more and more extreme and people who liked the game/company got more and more extreme in response. Where did GGG create this scenario? By pissing off people who don't like their game balance?


mr_madkeks

Why would you care? It can worsen your mood for a day, but at the end of the day you check out on patch notes and make you own decision: it's on you bruh. Otherwise close down reddit for a week idk


hulkjohnsson

I care because it feels bad, and I believe I’m not alone. It would suck to have to leave just because of this, and instead let what I see as a problem fester and become more prominent, no?


Arianity

> It would suck to have to leave just because of this Honestly, if something is bringing you down, I think it's actually really healthy to just take a break Funnily enough, you gave that exact advice: *The game is getting better every year, if you currently don't enjoy the game, just take a break and come back and try again later. It's not going anywhere.* That logic applies just as much to social media/reddit.


seandkiller

Nah man, you see, people gotta stop complaining. It's making me feel bad.


Ulfgardleo

this is such a bad take. the subreddit is always bad at this time of the league cycle. It will not be better in 3 leagues at the same time of the cycle and in the last year or so it has not been better. "But then don't come at this time" I hear you say. But this is incidentally also the time where you would like to discuss the actual changes and how to work around nerfs or how to use the new buffed mechanics. This is unfortunately not possible if you are downvoted and drowned by the "ALL NERFS NOT A SINGLE BUFF" crowd that probably has not even read the full manifesto or tried to selectively ignore the buffs in bad faith.


Arianity

>the subreddit is always bad at this time of the league cycle. It will not be better in 3 leagues at the same time of the cycle and in the last year or so it has not been better. I don't think that's always true. It's been that way in recent history (post-harvest/expedition, mainly).It definitely ebbs and flows. And even in many those cases, there's still been plenty of hype window. 3.17 definitely had a region where it was largely hype/positive, for instance. And also, a big part of the point is that a lot of it is driven by trying to force it. Taking a break makes it way easier to not be bothered by things, even if nothing has changed. Burn-out can happen even if the game is going great, and the same concept applies. Case in point, you say it hasn't gotten any better. I get frustrated by all the negative posts sometimes, too. I took a break, I'm more careful with what I engage with, and I enjoy the subreddit much more. > I hear you say. But this is incidentally also the time where you would like to discuss the actual changes and how to work around nerfs or how to use the new buffed mechanics. How is that any different than the advice OP gives about not playing the game? The people complaining would like to play the game too, and he's telling them to take a break. They miss out on playing just as much (and in their view, things aren't necessarily getting better, either). And that's not to mention, there are many other places to discuss the game with very different outlooks/cultures, if you just want to discuss it. You don't *have* to do it on reddit. In that regard, there's a lot more options. And that's not even getting to the fact that you can block a few people/click on certain threads to manage your experience, either. >This is unfortunately not possible I mean, yeah, it's a cost. The same way playing the game is also unfortunately not possible if you're not happy about it. But if it's not making you happy, you're not going to get the discussion you're looking for regardless So you might as well save the unpleasantness of trying to force it. In the same way you can't change the game, you can't change reddit. You can only change how you interact with it.


thundermonkeyms

You're absolutely not alone. It feels fucking terrible to try and come here and discuss the game only to drown in rage when we literally haven't seen the patch notes, new systems and items that might be added, the league mechanic, or even played the damn patch. I've lost count of the number of times in past leagues where I'd try to get a discussion going on what builds people were interested in, and the responses would be some variation on "nothing because game sux and you're dumb for enjoying it, I'm just here to ruin everyone else's fun." It's exhausting and adds nothing to the conversation. The one that really gets me is people trying to pretend that "6 months for this, game sucks fuck GGG and Chris should be fired blah blah blah" is valid criticism.


Lasditude

I wonder if it would be possible to get a critical mass of active discussion on a separate subreddit that enforced constructive criticism and removed rage threads.


hulkjohnsson

I really appreciate your comment


Minimonium

I was interested in the kind of interesting discussions you were trying to make, so I checked your comment history and what met me was a wall of the most whiniest complaining about the game I have seen on that sub. Take a break, friend.


thundermonkeyms

Wait really? When have I been complaining about the game? Like actually I'm going back through my own history now to check. Unless you mean the most recent comment (the long one), someone asked what feedback I would give, and I tried to keep it on topic and level-headed instead of just raging AND pointed out that all of that is subjective on the rest of the changes. When did I complain?


Tavron

You are definitely not alone. It really sucks that the negativity is so prevalent over actually discussing the game and how to solve nerfs and buffs and make new builds etc.


deca065

Your comment getting downvoted is such a perfect representation of the current wave of negativity. Agree with the trend or else.


kono_kun

Or else what? The number you value so much goes down? Log off, king.


deca065

I said nothing about the personal value of an up/downvote, I said the downvotes on a very reasonable comment reflect the subs vibe. You trying to conjure up something to attack, is also a good reflection.


CringeTeam

What a cringe comment from you lmao, delete it please


deca065

You're not alone, during times like these it feels like you might as well not say anything if it's not a complaint about the game. I appreciate the post, even if we all knew it was just going to be met with "if you don't like it just leave" comments. IMO it makes more sense for the people who supposedly hate the game to "take a break" than those enjoying and wishing to discuss it. Giving feedback to GGG (or any dev) is good, but these situations always go to far and people beat a dead horse too long with overly negative, dramatic shit.


Lasditude

I completely agree with you and the unfortunate situation is that the best way to follow PoE news is this subreddit. I would go somewhere else that was just the latest PoE news and light (or enforced constructive) discussion if that existed. Like if there was a community of people that were as levelheaded and thoughtful as sirgog about PoE, I would never look back.


hulkjohnsson

Tenkiei is another creator which covers the patch in an honest and non-pitch forky way, very much recommend


mr_madkeks

I think perception and filtering information playing a big role here and hearing opinion from different circles/places etc. That's why I always lookout for notorious figures, what they think (ziz, mathil, Ben, tarky, etc) so I can have multiple pieces of the story to see it in complete form


r4be_cs

Ah, the good old "complaint about the complainers" thread. You even put a cherry on top with the "it's a free game" argument. Nice \^\^


seandkiller

Because we all know "Free game, no bitching" is a valid defense


Fimii

Include the "if you can't make a better X, you can't criticize X!" and I call BINGO!


MerkDoctor

"Hey man, it's $110k to actually play the game, but it's free to play, so your criticism is invalid." -these people


ICallShotgun123

Ah, the good old 100th "you can't enjoy the game" comment.


Critical_Art2674

reddit is toxic but the balance manifesto is also just bad hope that helps


GoodRedd

I only hate the manifesto so much because I love the game. <3


Asteroth555

> try to understand someone else's perspective other than your own, This isn't chess where someone else's perspective is a different way to play, and only affects them. These are changes that affect everyone and their enjoyment of the game. People that like these changes are in direct opposition to people who don't. It's so bloody pompous and pretentious to tell people to suck it up and that you aren't going to like every single nerf. Guess what, people like you are the ones that encourage GGG to make those changes. People like you are the reason other people get less enjoyment out of the game. > if you currently don't enjoy the game, just take a break and come back and try again later. You could stand to do the same.


Kanberry

by this logic, everyone should be uniformly enjoying the game less when they nerf substantially popular build decisions. i have no idea what drives you to think 100% of poe players suffer more when balance changes are put out. ​ >Guess what, people like you are the ones that encourage GGG to make those changes. People like you are the reason other people get less enjoyment out of the game. the unripe irony of saying this right after using the words "bloody pompous and pretentious". i'd say it's 6 to 5 pick'em that this breed of brainrot post is why GGG staff shouldn't read this subreddit.


deca065

Dude, this "people like you" rhetoric is going too far. You're acting like OP literally wants to cause others harm while being a bully yourself. Check your "leader of angry pitchfork mob" mentality.


hulkjohnsson

I’m not asking you to see my perspective, or another specific player’s perspective. It was mostly directed at seeing GGG’s perspective.


welpxD

I don't think you can speak for GGG, if that is what you are trying to do.


Asteroth555

> It was mostly directed at seeing GGG’s perspective. We got plenty of it during Chris Wilson's apology tour after 3.15. He wants the game harder and players much slower. And I hate that stance because it's not fun and boring. PoE's strength comes from build-making and diversity. The combat is shitty and uninteractive. I don't play this game to fight shaper for 10 minutes or whatever. I play this game to make interesting/whacky builds. Those builds are more and more difficult to make because of design choices by the CEO EDIT: I think CW just needs to release his damn hard mode so he can have his 'harder' game, and all his loving fans can go play it and enjoy the slower poe


hulkjohnsson

I find it to be easier than ever to be creative tbh How do these changes and other changes make the game less diverse? Other than you following the path of least resistance and deliberately not experimenting to play meta stuff


HyperFanTaim

What in nerfing underperforming skills enables them in whaky new way?


txracin

The thing I don't like about the decisions GGG is making is that they are hurting the player base. Not the game or me personally but everytime they make a move that fractures the player base there are a lot of people who just stop playing. The game hasn't had a significant increase in total player numbers in a very long time (according to the tiny bit of info GGG releases about player numbers) and stagnating player base is not good for a game that's thriving. In one of the recent Chris Wilson interviews he actually states that only 10% of new players make it past Brutus like that's a good thing. Pushing away 90% of your possible profit in an industry that depends on new player spending is not good for the longevity of the game. Again difficulty doesn't matter it's the fact that you're losing most people 45 minutes in to the easiest part of the main story. I can kill merveil without chest helmet or gloves but I'm not an 'average player'. According to the numbers I'm a top .03% player because I've beaten all red maps. But in actual game terms I'm still a new player because I don't craft most of my own gear. Most of the argument comes from people saying the game shouldn't be easy for new players. But every single MMORPG that leans into the hardcore crowd immediately hemorrhages the normal everyday mom and pop gamers that are 95% of players now. Most people playing poe and actually spending a large amount of money have kids, jobs and responsibilities that PoE doesn't respect anymore. Once you push out those players they do not come back, they aren't going to quit their jobs and ignore their kids to play a game. They just move on to a game their time limits allow them to play and never look back. Also if you started playing path of exile before 3.7 you were playing in easy mode. Most old players forget just how easy it was to have an Uber elder viable build on day 2 before the massive damage nerfs right before the massive monster hp buffs. This manifesto show they are moving in a direction where most of your power comes from gear, in a convoluted crafting system that even the master crafters have 7 alt screens up so they can keep track of their steps. How is a new player going to have the time to get to that point? You get to yellow maps and need 5 layers of defense and 2 perfectly rolled cluster jewels just to have the dps necessary to fight blue mobs now that archenemesis has pushed the floor up to the ceiling for time investment. And you better hope to Christ you picked the 'right skill' because now there are literally dozens of noob traps in the gem list that cannot perform without obscene amounts of investment and knowing mechanics they simply are never taught through gameplay. Or you install one of the other thousands of free to play games on your phone, console, or PC and just leave PoE alone forever. My issue with GGG is they're going in a direction that I don't think is going to remain profitable. And profits are what keep the servers up and running.


eq2_lessing

GGG self-inflicted this wound. Now they're hinting at 100 uniques getting buffed. Why communicate this way? Why deliver the big bunch of nerfs with almost no interesting new things stand-alone? GGG has only themselves to blame. And maybe, just maybe, if you don't like the criticism, don't read it. We (almost) all know it's not that bad and that people are overreacting.


poecurioso

Don’t read the comments. Including this comment, don’t read it.


Darkblitz9

Aw fuck I've gone blind.


Starbuckz42

> try to see beyond your 30% dps nerf uninvested Seismic Trap Except that's not at all what people are complaining about. How dare you call others out but you won't even try to understand the issues being raised.


IdontNeedPants

Why do you take it personally when someone criticizes the game? Don't get me wrong, this sub can definitely be overly whiney, but you tune that out if you use this sub. > I feel that some vocal minority people have a disproportionate expectation of what GGG are "supposed" to deliver Maybe thats true, but who cares? Theres always a small group with dumb expectations, why concern yourself with them?


hulkjohnsson

It really just feels like I’m not allowed to have fun according to the general posts on here, and that fucking sucks tbh


Trindokor

Well, and the manifesto basically says to me that I am not supposed to have fun (Playing Baron Zombie Necro) That fucking sucks even more, because I can't simply not look at the front-page to make it go away. Why do you feel like you have the monopoly on what is "fun"?


IdontNeedPants

I am not sure why you get that feeling currently. Like looking at the front page its mostly just fluff posts about necros getting nerfed. Some criticisms to how the manifesto is worded, and that its boring. Maybe you are building it up too much in your head, this sub is actually pretty tame right now compared to other releases.


hulkjohnsson

It’s moreso the comment sections of most posts, than the posts themselves. The memes are absolutely hilarious, my favourite one so far is the Neo Saboteur


b-aaron

The dead spectre monkeys on the tombstone got me.


-K_RL-

I just feel like I build a sandcastle each league IN STANDARD and the GGG tide crushes my cherished character every 3 months. I mean I'm ok with meta changes and all of that but keep that in league. I specifically avoid leagues because I can't play enough in 3 months to make my build work. Maybe create a new gamemode where characters in that kind of SSF aren't impacted by updates and frozen in their "time" or leave Standard alone. I bought a few packs this league (which I haven't done since Harvest) because my 3.17 build hadn't been bricked which allowed me to reach T16 maps in 3.18 something like 3 weeks ago. Now GGG revealed that my fun is over in 3.19 thanks to the nerfs. Unless they kept hidden some changes about armor, mana reservation and Omniscience, my character has now half of the previous ehp, almost halved DPS and I don't even factor in the fact that I'll have to remove one of my auras. I'm just too tired to start a new character and build even though I feel like their trailer for 3.19 and changes to the atlas will manage to bait me into playing the game and feel frustrated in 3 months.


hulkjohnsson

Which build do you play?


XxXKakekSugionoXxX

I love reddit for the drama and memes,the more nastier the nerf the more drama and memes come out,and I've enjoyed upvote all those satire memes and at least for me whatever happen in reddit doesn't affect my poe experience in anyway,I'm frkn no lifer dawg,whatever shit they throw at me I play it anyway lmao but still I can empathy people with limited gaming time feel about the nerf that might actually make them skip the league or the game completely.


Sarm_Kahel

>To preface this post, I really don't mind being weaker or stronger or whatever the patch notes does, I'll play what's fun and play it pretty well regardless. Adapt/overcome meme etc. This is the key to enjoying anything - not just PoE or even Video Games in general. Look at something and figure out how you can have fun with it. Stop imagining something you 'could' have if it was different, or fantasizing about something you've had in the past that was better. Look at what's in front of you and if you have to change the way you engage with it to have fun - just do it. The constant wallowing in anger and frustration will ruin the game faster than any change to the game ever could.


chaddaddycwizzie

You hit the nail on the head about how toxicity propagates on social media. I used to think reddit was a great source of unbiased news and I was hopeful for the upvote/downvote system but covid really brought to light for me how wrong all of that is and now I realize that reddit will reinforce ANY idea/belief that you already have if you go searching for it. I think there was legitimate cause for concern with the manifesto but so far, just that. Not time to get out the pitchforks yet. Since there are unknowns leading up to the patch notes I feel like it is good to still give GGG some benefit of the doubt. I think some people who have played the game longer than me are not as hopeful because they have seen worse patches go through.


TerracottaPoE

"I feel that some vocal minority people have a disproportionate expectation of what GGG are "supposed" to deliver" Player retention says its not a vocal minority


droppedmyravioli

Reddit criticizing the game: bad, toxic, evil Alk criticizing the game: wholesome, based, true


Masteroxid

Based


omniocean

We would literally still be dealing with Day 1 Archnemesis rares if it wasn't for reddit's bitching, it helps the game's state a lot more than this pointless post which is just you venting for yourself.


Kanberry

pretty much. this subreddit is every soft baby jail player's soapbox. last league was a fantastic showcase of people who spent more time here complaining about archnem to death while everybody capable of overcoming game/build challenges were actually playing path of exile instead. nothing was more miserable than seeing the sea of "harvest vs. prenerf harvest" threads for like a solid 6 months straight. no joke: someone here actually referred to the manifesto as "shitty and manipulative behavior from a game dev." you can't write that shit.


thundermonkeyms

It got deleted or I'd share it, but yesterday someone actually wrote that GGG and Chris deserve to be homeless because of the balance manifesto. Imagine being that butthurt and ragey over a video game.


ikillppl

I've seen someone threaten to send them "something" in the mail. Like they openly typed that out onto reddit for everyone to see. I can only imagine what horrors they see in their DMs


Deonix

Everyone knows that people who have been developing games for 10+ years are stupid. But the redditors who developed sitting on their ass 10+ hours a day, 5 minutes after the release of the manifesto, know exactly how to balance the game.


Eques9090

> Everyone knows that people who have been developing games for 10+ years are stupid. This is really the worst possible argument you can make in a world where companies like blizzard exist. Developers and game companies are not infallible because of prior success or experience. At a certain point it arguably causes or contributes to their failings.


Deonix

Blizzard is a bad example because Blizzard doesn't exist. Now they are completely different people with completely different ideas, and all that remains of the company is the name.


Eques9090

They're still being led by people who have been developing games for 10+ years.


Kaelran

> while everybody capable of overcoming game/build challenges were actually playing path of exile instead Yeah we definitely didn't have an extremely narrow meta and terrible build diversity, and a top racer who literally rerolled off of the 3rd strongest build in the game because he said it was too weak for the new endgame even though he had crazy gear.


Letmetakeu2damovies

Bro you’ve been complaining after every single manifesto for at least a year now. In almost any thread complaining I can guarantee Kaelran will be all up in that mess leading the charge. Give it a rest man.


Kaelran

> Bro you’ve been complaining after every single manifesto for at least a year now. It's like every Manifesto since 3.15 has contained a bunch of nerfs that hit builds that are already bad or something, while this game has awful build diversity compared to before 3.15. It's like every streamer and the majority of the community has had a similar negative reaction or something. You aren't entitled to a positivity echo chamber. Idk why you seem to think you are.


kmoz

Build and class diversity is far better post 3.15 than before. You bring this point up all the time and are just objectively wrong about it. Do you not remember leagues like legion or synthesis that had 70% of the ladder playing ONE SKILL? Or leagues like delirium that had 80% of the ladder playing a single build?


[deleted]

I've played since beta. This is one of the worst times for diversity considering the number of available options in the games history. Even when ladder was dominated by a class, that was simply because it was so much better than the plethora of builds that cleared the game just fine. Now to be "all content viable" you need to reach absurd levels and some skills cannot hack it. Which is a shame.


kmoz

Youre comparing apples and oranges. "All content" is a wildly different expectation because they have specifically added like 10 layers of aspirational content purely to challenges the best of the best builds. None of those old builds could have done uber sirus, none of them could do 200 quant simultaneous feared either. If you look at the list of builds that can do non-aspirational content, like solid T16 mapping and lets say A8 sirus, the list is INCREDIBLY long. So many builds can completely trivialize sirus now its not even funny. Tanking die beams and meteors in SSF gear.


CryptoBanano

>Build and class diversity is far better post 3.15 than before You can't be serious


kmoz

All of the data points to it being true. People look at old build diversity with hella rose-tinted glasses. Class, Skill, and archetype diversity is far, far higher post 3.15 compared to previous. People are conflating content being easy with build diversity. If you go look at actual meta snapshots from those older (but still reasonably modern) leagues they were fucking DOGSHIT. Half the classes unplayed, 80% of the ladder playing 1 of 3 builds, etc.


CryptoBanano

Which data? Poe ninja data? Because anyone who has been playing PoE for a long time knows that the builds that could do endgame then were basically endless, which isnt the case now.


kmoz

again, comparing the old endgame to the end of the current endgame is comparing apples and oranges. Theres like 10 extra layers of difficulty on top of the old endgame SPECIFICALLY there to challenge the absolute best builds played by the best players. None of those old builds outside of old aura stackers would have cleared this new aspirational content either, so youre making an inherently faulty comparison. If you look at what builds can kill sirus and run t16 maps right now the list is incredibly fucking long.


Kaelran

> Do you not remember leagues like legion or synthesis that had 70% of the ladder playing ONE SKILL You're talking about SC Trade where the ladder started at level 98. SC Trade ladder != build diversity. I could take so so many more skills/builds/classes and make something that could clear all content in the game before 3.15.


kmoz

Thats because of content stratification more than anything, not that builds are weaker. The hardest content in the game is 30x harder than the old hardest content in the game specifically to challenge the best players on the best builds. Youre trying to compare apples and oranges. Your old unnerfed builds wouldnt have cleared any of this new shit either barring maybe legion cyclone and delirium aura stacker. If you compare apples to apples like Elder or uber elder, as many or more builds can clear it because of all the power creep. Its not terribly hard to make a build stand there tanking die beams and sirus meteors and shit right now through a good number of different tools. That would have been unthinkable outside of the unkillable aurastackers we had in times past.


Kaelran

> The hardest content in the game is 30x harder than the old hardest content in the game I mean, this is literally not true unless you're talking like pre-3.9 stuff. Flame Wall wasn't even in the game until 3.12. We were still stronger in 3.7-3.14 than we are now lmao.


kmoz

This is just so comically wildly not true, outside of specifically aura stackers and people running with aurabots when they were super broken. 3.14 builds would be getting dumpstered by uber sirus and 200 quant simultaneous feared. none of the aspirational content existed yet, none of the uber bosses, simu only went to wave 20, etc. Builds had absolutely trash defenses compared to now, no mageblood, no melding, no omni, no spell suppression, armour/phys mitigation was shit, etc.


Kaelran

Old Xibaqua, old flasks, spell dodge, old blind, old guard skills (old VMS lmao), old corrupted soul, old glancing blows, old fortify, old spirit offering, old bone offering, old mana defenses, old enduring cry, old shaper's touch, old DR passives, old mistress of sacrifice, old ghost shroud, old temp chains, old enfeeble.


Letmetakeu2damovies

And many builds can clear all content all the same today, even post 3.15 nerfs. What’s your point?


VortexMagus

Strongly disagree. If those old unnerfed builds had access to cluster jewels and other methods of scaling that weren't available before, they'd be just as good at the new content, maybe even better.


kmoz

Outside of specifically aura stackers which were totally broken, builds are overwhelmingly stronger now than beforehand because defenses are a million times better. Its like everyone has forgotten that everyone ran shitty glass cannon builds for years. Do people not remember 3.3K hp assassins making up like 50% of the ladder?


jhillman87

"Every streamer and a majority of the community" Way to lump the rest of us into your shithole of an existence 8) Idk who you seem to think you are.


Kaelran

Someone who understands how numbers work, unlike you apparently.


tomblifter

Harvest was a mistake, primarily because it generated players like you. Understand that leagues are testing grounds for mechanics, and accept that the developers might not want the game to move in the same direction that you want it to.


Kaelran

> Harvest was a mistake, primarily because it generated players like you. I've played every league since 2.0 lmao. You need to understand you aren't entitled to an echo chamber that matches what GGG is doing. If they want the game to move in a direction that many people don't like, you're gonna see that feedback. They aren't magically immune to criticism. I used to play 1-1.5 months every league and had a ton of fun. I used to make a bunch of builds pre-league I was excited to play, like 10-20, and play at least half of them. I played 3.15 for 2 days. I played 3.17 for 4 days. It's far far harder to make builds that can actually do current content and aren't just the top meta builds. There's a reason for the large negative reaction, it isn't like people are upset about nothing.


tomblifter

I'm not saying that you started in Harvest league. I'm saying the power that Harvest generated has permanently tainted a lot of player's expectations, yourself included.


Kaelran

> I'm not saying that you started in Harvest league. I'm saying the power that Harvest generated has permanently tainted a lot of player's expectations, yourself included. And yet the league I played the longest and had the most fun in was 3.12, which didn't have Harvest. Weird it's like Harvest has nothing to do with what I'm talking about or something.


KidZesty

Yeah I agree, every league start people who are having a blast are actually playing the game while the small percentage of whiners are posting on reddit, which means the vocal minority is who actually shape public opinion.


seandkiller

> no joke: someone here actually referred to the manifesto as "shitty and manipulative behavior from a game dev." you can't write that shit. That seems like a very reasonable take, depending on the context. Game devs aren't saints. They may very well make manipulative decisions.


Mael_Jade

Ben was very much right when he said that the biggest factor to enjoying the game is avoiding the subreddit. The constant toxicity, filtered through "social media's engagement = must be seen and good" lens does in fact ruin the mood.


Trindokor

So accessibility is now a bad thing? People complaining because they killed e.g. Baron Zombies completely is a bad thing? You know... an easy to play not OP but very much usable build that is perfectly suited for beginners that don't have every boss memorized? It's not about "not doing enough". Quite the contrary in fact: It's about "doing too much" to certain archetypes at once


bausHuck33

I feel the same. So hyped for league especially after seeing Kalandra name drop. Read the manifesto and saw changes in all the right places. I am mostly a minion playstyle player and I was happy with what was projected. More power on items, less power to Necro (I was getting sick of feeling like Necro was the only choice for minions). Sure, GGG could have told us more or added more, but it's only the manifesto, they can't explain everything. Was super exited for the patch notes and announcement stream. Then Reddit posts come along. All these Debbie Downers that are crying over their builds being destroyed. Like seriously, it's not that bad. If they are good players then they will figure out a way around it. If they aren't good players then you wait until streamers give a way to get around it. This gets more annoying when last league "nothing" changed and people cried that the league is going to be boring. Like, wtf. Change or not, GGG get bashed about doing something wrong. Not only that, but if you try to point out any logic to say that GGG know what they are doing, you'll get downvoted or get many angry comments. The game has come so far. I trust GGG. Sure they mess up sometimes (mana cost nerf was a bit much, AN was terribly implemented), but overall the game is improving and getting more fun. If people don't like the direction the game is going then don't log in to play. Go play some other game. I'm not saying this to be like "git gud" but from a "life is too short" way. Go play games you enjoy, you never get time back so use it on stuff you enjoy.


0000void0000

My guild has two groups of people. One who will have fun and try regardless of nerfs to make a good build. Another group who are redditors, and will basically complain incessantly at literally any change.


LethargicCarcass

I think most peoples issues don’t really have much to do with the nerfs. They didn’t buff anything else from what we have seen. So this is pretty much the third league in a row with the exact same meta just weaker. It gets boring.


borkenschnorke

I remember a time when 90% of posts here were questions, build showcases and ideas, item showcases, sharing information and some actually polite suggestions. Now it is mostly GGG bashing and trying to tell people about all the things that are totally wrong with the game. The mentality of players (or the reddit posters) also shifted from "My build does not work that well what did I do wrong?" to "My build does not work and here I explain what GGG fucked up to make it not work!" However this is something that you often see when games get bigger. The initial goal of a game is to throw problems at players and it is the players job to figure out how to beat content. New players who know nothing are normally fine with that. However the bigger the game gets and changes itself, the more people expect certain things to work and also sometimes in these games stuff that worked in the past does not work anymore and people don't like that. However if there is no new stuff to figure out the game would get insanely boring for many people. And the worst part is that players do not understand that many of what they think are "solutions" are creating a dozen new problems. CW has said it before "Players are good with identifying problems but suck at solving them!" In the end the worst part is that all this negativity takes away peoples hype as you said and some people get influenced a lot by negativity (me too). In the end I don't get how so many people that think the game is literally horrible still are playing it. Many posts read as if people are forced at gunpoint to play this horrible game.


Moneypouch

Man this is a gigabrain play right here. 1. Be a member of a minority 2. Make a post about illusory truth and how vocal minorities can essencially brainwash people into joining them through exposure. 3. Hope fellow members of your minority catch on and spread the message 4. brainwash the masses into following your narrative instead 5. you are now the majority and have retroactive justification for bending the community to your whims 6. profit Dude is playing 5d chess while us poor posters that complain about GGG mishandling league after league and ruin their day are playing checkers. It is important to counter with this it is not just something the sub does every league regardless of what the counterjerk faction would like you to believe. In fact while personally #nochanges sentinel was the biggest disappointment for me \[even moreso than the travesty that was expedition\] as balance changes are what I need to get the creative juice flowing the average community reception at the time was lukewarm to positive so it isn't even true looking one league back. This universally negative response is a relatively new phenomena starting surprisingly once they started actively making the game worse post ritual. Prior to that the sub had fairly balanced takes when the content being put out was good. Some leagues were received negatively some positively. Something changed and it was not the sub.


hulkjohnsson

Worse to whom? If you went back to that league right now, with all of the QoL taken away, I doubt it would be more fun for the majority of the people tbh


Secret_Classic4384

yes this place is a toxic shit hole and it will wear off onto you if you are not careful


Riaan96

first of all if reddit only has a negativ impact on you just dont use it or go to the more positive pathofexilebuilds reddit etc. On the topic of underused skills of course more intricate reworks take more time away from stuff but you cant deny that changes like cleave +2 radius are just ridiculous and tonedeaf. About being hyped i am always curious what hyped you the most? Personally for me the big one is of course trickster but i am also interested if there will be some builds abusing shocknova guaranteed shock which could be interesting. Then there could be interesting stuff with minion builds depending on the new items but pure could be crafting stuff mostly doesnt hype me. Lastly personally i find most complaints about toxicity in the reddit pretty irrelevant the posts themselves arent really toxic mostly just change recommendations that will never happen or people questioning why without answers the stupid posts mostly get deleted. The comments under posts are another topic though those can be some real toxic stupidity.


Rolf_Dom

Yes. That's reddit, and social media for you in general. I've played a fair number of online games, and you'd be hard pressed to find a single online game that's been around for a while, where people get positively hyped over patches. The vibe is almost always negative because if there are issues with the game - and there are always issues with every game - the people are already guaranteed to be unhappy. Even if you fix the issues, people will bitch that it took too long and they'll already be doomsaying that some change will cause new issues. If a game has been around for a couple of years, you will be guaranteed to have this small, but vocal minority who have burnt out or otherwise grown dissatisfied with the game, yet feel that they are so invested that they must without any doubt, remain involved with the community and the game. And usually their complaints are so numerous that no change is ever going to satisfy them. They are forever going to be negative. And they just will not leave. I've never seen any community manage to get rid of these people. Literally no community. They become prevalent after a year or two of a game's lifespan, and they'll be around forever. Fun.


Alhoon

This sub wasn't too bad until around Blizzcon where Diablo Immortal was announced. That was a major surge in Diablo 3 refugees and they brought their toxic culture with them. They were welcomed with open arms, more players is always better right? I'd argue a homogenous playerbase is more important than a large one. GGG hasn't helped their case either, turning a slow paced ARPG into zoomer paradise and now attempting to walk back, when it's all but too late by the looks of things.


kenjiGhost

well, every situation has their own double edge effect. Getting more mainstream => potentially alot more revenue => able to expand server/work/content BUT might need to cater the majority more since the expansion requires money to sustain. Getting niche => able to stay true to core BUT potentially less money = hard/unable to expand = lack of money for content expansion. I would say as long as Chris is still at helm, things will mostly still be going to a decent path.


thundermonkeyms

I never thought of that, damn. Seems decently accurate from what I remember.


whyiwastemytimeonyou

Leave Reddit and enjoy your bubble.


EndymionFalls

Continue to reddit and enjoy your echo chamber? I mean this subreddit is such doom and gloom every league start/ pre-start it detracts from any of the fun and creative posts/videos.


Restryouis

actual tl;dr ignorance is bliss


SovietOmega

Mostly just been browsing this subreddit the last day to see all the salt flow. It is comedy you can't pay people to write. Negative impact can only really happen if you believe the complaints to be an accurate reflection of the game state. Cherry picking scenarios, misrepresenting numbers, entitlement, and rose-colored glasses just make it hard to take most views seriously.


Roborabbit37

It's the same every League, and I say it every League. Reddit is the worst at this stage of a new League. The vocal minority waving their pitchforks and torches do more to kill my enjoyment for the game than any bad Manifesto/Patch notes ever will. The doomsayers crawl out of the woodwork every time and it's no wonder Reddit gets a bad name across so many other platforms.


Masteroxid

Criticism bad, just mindlessly consume instead


M_M4yhem

Take the advice of one of the top players in the game "If you want to have fun in PoE, stay away from the reddit."


no_fluffies_please

> try to see beyond your 30% dps nerf uninvested Seismic Trap I don't think I saw a single person complaining about this, but maybe I missed a stray comment somewhere. I think the illusory truth criticism can also be applied to meta-posts complaining about the subreddit, such as this one. What matters is *exactly what was said*, the number/ratio of people in agreement, and whether it was valid criticism. More often than not, the serious discussions that get upvoted in this sub actually do have good points. When you talk about the vocal complainers, you should bring to the table specific examples that we can objectively inspect together. Otherwise, we could be arguing past each other against our own strawmen. One example, when you say that people complain about "not enough" and bring up the number of leagues/expansions- are you suggesting that "not enough" means the complainers want more leagues? I may have seriously missed something, because the complaints didn't seem like they wanted more *league content*. I doubt the people balancing the game are the same as the ones developing assets and dialogue, so I think it's reasonable for people to want more meaningful buffs. One example of something *specific* was someone suggesting adding back fortify or removing the attack speed penalty of cleave. Stuff like this doesn't (or shouldn't) cost a bunch of developer time aside from testing. That said, something good they did in this manifesto was at least acknowledge some problems and say that they might revisit it later. I think a lot of heartache would be avoided if they acknowledged community gripes more often like one-shots/defenses, and created a history of following up on them. As it stands, there are a couple things where they've said "X will be nerfed and compensated with Y", and then Y is nerfed, e.g. cluster jewel weights. If they followed up on things they've said in the past (and gave themselves credit for doing so), I think it'd go a long way. Just my worthless 2c.


b9n7

I agree with you 100%. That’s just life honestly, people are way more likely to speak up when they feel negative emotions vs positive. GGG is fucking ace in the hole. But they know they have a community of die hard, committed, passionate players and that is one of the factors that keeps them on their game. I think they’ve had to harden their skin and learn when to take things to heart and when not to.


Nornag3st

someone forcing you to read other people opinion?


N0-F4C3

My problem is that what the players want and enjoy seems to often be directly opposed to what they want, and it gets really old after playing the game for a prolonged period of time. Just a BIG example... Trade. The way trade is handled in PoE is an absolute dumpster-fire held together by stitches made by the efforts of the community. Trading for maps at the start of a league SHOULD NOT TAKE 15 MINS to get a response because of all the dead listing. Anti scammer tools, Some kind of exchange for instant trading of common commodity's like white maps... they could do so many useful things that could make this better. Instead they let it fester. Ive had 4 friends quit because of this issue ALONE. While these kind of issues persist for YEARS without even a modest attempt at reform we get game warping changes fixing "Problems". How many pet mechanic reworks are we on now? How many Defensive mechanics have been gutted in the past year? I love this game but god damn... so many changes confuse and infuriate me. I just cant handle this shit anymore. Content drops should be FUN, and while a lot of the endgame stuff has been cool, virtually all the systems and balance changes have been nothing short of depressingly bad.


phantasmaniac

The problem would be GGG's vision and player's visions not aligned well with each others. Solution would be first GGG state their vision with visual representation, I mean steelmage did very good in this kind of thing tho. Then players start posting their own visions about the game, we just need to work together by discussing about it and not bury it. Before GGG do anything at this point, players must find a compromise in every aspects they're disagreed with GGG. After the player's visions united with compromise, GGG will take the vision from players and make compromise with their own and present the compromised vision again "Before" developing next next leagues. I saw a lot of people strawmanning new players while it's not "new" but rather "bachelor level players". I mean if you guys are taking PoE university classes it's make sense when you're considering yourselves as "bachelor players" We're all learning about the game, though there are a lot of misshapen journeys, you'd still learned something new everyday. btw I'm considered people that make their own builds and killed all normal end game bosses(non-uber) as bachelor graduated. But there are other paths to take in which you just have to define your own definition of "graduated" In case you're curious beaten uber bosses = master, and beaten the gauntlet = PhD I just hope that people agreed with me and GGG make the movement on this, because it's the easiest way out imo.


Fimii

Idk mate, the manifesto just is completely unexciting after 6 months of basically no balance changes at all. I guess most people wouldn't have bothered reading it without reddit or streamers telling them the gist of it, sure. But does ignorance make your game experience better in the end? I doubt it. I'd rather see the outrage and make my decision to not play this league (if their offerings continue to be so disappointing, at least) rather than playing until I notice that the game is still the same from six months ago. Obviously, reddit can be a toxic cesspool and very often is, but negativity here is usually bred by the desire to have this game that we all love to live up to its high aspirations. Like, yeah, if you're not planning on doing the endgame and you just play the campaign and maybe into white maps, going on this sub is probably a bad idea because the outrage is about things that won't affect you too much (unless you're playing minions ig, rip). But that's just not the main audience here.


karlson98

People that are negative about the game voice the exact reason why. You're just saying you like the direction the game is going, but with no real argument. That's what this sub is for - discussions. You're not really contributing. If you dislike and disagree with the opinions on this sub, either ignore it, or start a discussion on why the changes are good, don't just "people are too negative" at us.


Kevinemmm

Yep, people are unable to manage their own expectations and get pisay when things don't meet them


Silthya

This isn't about accessibility, it's about fun. How come in a game with 2k passives, hundreds of skills and variations and more uniques than you can count, we are pigeon holed into like 3 meta builds every league and then another 5-10 off-meta builds that can still work with a lot of investment... You'd think a game with this much content would focus on allowing the player to use ALL of this content and experiment while having fun. Instead any off-meta build immediately hits a brick wall of not having all the 50 REQUIRED layers of defence while also having subpar damage compared to the meta ones...


notDvoiduRlooKin4

Mods have done a great job with this sub over the last 2-3 years turning this place into the most toxic shithole imaginable.


magus424

PEBCAK


CAndrewG

God forbid people provide feedback to the game they spend to much time on. This entire post is a massive strawman btw. maybe take your own advice and actually read the things you're criticizing.


Haymak3r

I was wondering when the white knighting would begin. Right on time.


zGnRz

wtf are you even ranting about… GGG didn’t make anything better (so far) just everything worse. You think people gonna run around with Sunder? Yeah sure those people will re roll a week in… I don’t think people are overly Toxic at this point in time. I think it’s all directed at the right things, like let’s be honest it’s been a half a year now with no changes and THIS is the best they do?


BokiTheUndefeated

Well that's just like, your opinion man, I personally think the manifesto looks good so far and i'm somewhat sad there weren't nerfs to Aegis, nightblade, seismic etc. Just because they freeze balance for a patch doesn't mean they need to do 6 months worth of balance changes, this was the manifesto they were suposed to put out last league, meaning just the usual 3 months patch. Also sunder isn't that bad and the buffs are welcome, also the people that will roll sunder are not meta slaves, and they probably have some understanding of build making and will be able to make it work. Just because you don't have the confidence or ability doesn't mean other people don't.


zGnRz

Tell me you don’t get to end game content without saying it


sogybritches

Tell me you're uncreative and bad at playing not op skills without saying it. Sounds dumb right?


BokiTheUndefeated

Except I get 38 challenges every league I get to play properly without work getting in the way, when I can't play i always get 24, even when i don't do challenges i always clear all end game content with my homebrew builds no less, account name Yonha, post your account name or eat your words. Besides I don't see how this has anything to do with end game content, unless you're suggesting sunder can't do it, which is flat out not true and im tempted to do a sunder character just to prove it.


DuhBubbles

The entitled cringe is off the charts this league. Been avoiding this sub other than news.


dirrtydancerr

> I'm sorry that the free to play game ... Can we stop using these types of arguments? GGG's is profitable and honestly this type of thinking is just beyond dumb.


hulkjohnsson

As if ”you don’t do enough of this specific thing I personally want” is a better one?


dirrtydancerr

No, did I say that? Youre arguing in bad faith and ironically doing the exact same as youre criticizing this subreddit for. This "free game no bitching rhetoric" lowers the level of discussion. You're basically trying absolve GGG of any potential constructive criticism of their game.


hulkjohnsson

Game free wasn’t a big point I tried to make, but it still stands as this: for the investment of the player, they recieve a lot of return. More return than a lot of other games out there. To complain because they didn’t do enough of your specific (no, not you specifically) wants is crazy talk and will lead to being always disappointed. If not you, then someone else who thinks the same. There are a ton of changes that I want, and have wanted for a long time. Do I expect them? No. Do I want them? Yes. That’s more or less the point I’m trying to make, and perspective I would like others to use tbh


dirrtydancerr

I dont want to necro something, when you have probably moved on. My last comment is that > There are a ton of changes that I want, and have wanted for a long time. Do I expect them? No. Do I want them? Yes. That’s more or less the point I’m trying to make, and perspective I would like others to use tbh After having a league where they literally skipped balance changes, I did expect them to do more and so did others. I think thats a fair expectation.


Awaltir

"free game, no bitchin" >try to just accept that you aren't going to like every single thing that comes out of the game I play this game on and off from the legacy league and played all leagues from ritual to archnemesis. From the start what attracted me to the game was freedom of playing whatever I want and I played mostly melee. We are in around the year when PoE devs absolutely demolish melee playstyle and make it absolute suffering not worth anyone time. Everyone want different things from the game so do not be surprised that people who liked poe before can hate the state of the game now. I couldn't care less if I could, for example, play some old league (with balance from it) like delve or incursion but I can't since it is game as a service. The league I have finally stopped playing anto just come by reddit(just to check reveals to see if it will get better) is sentinel, heap of a garbage, which had 0 changes that could make game fun but on contrary they jampacked it with retarded shit like archnem mods to increase playtime. Every change in this game for like a year seems to not be made towards fun but towards increasing playtime and that is PoE I do not want to play and I will critique it reddit was made to discuss things, not to be a safe space, go make your own discord if you just want "happy thoughts" because god forbid someone can have other perspective


hulkjohnsson

Discussions are good, and good discussions exist. Personal harassment of developers, wishing pain upon others, and being rude to others because of their own discontent is not okay. In sentinel we had more player power and potential diversity than ever before, I’m afraid that if that’s what you are looking for, you missed out, and if I may assume - that’s because of the negativity bias on communities which you seem to believe instead of playing it yourself.


PeterStepsRabbit

This subreddit is full of crybabies. Leave it before it Kills your happyness


_Benzka_

Iam on the Poe reddit just for the memes, if i have fun on league start i have fun and if not then not :)


levus2002

Leagues getting no balance changes nakes me less excited. This is not a complaint for 3.19, cuz im still on hopium that it will be fine. But 3.18 simply sucked.


Comfortable_Water346

Always, every league. Every time i check in after manifesto, patch notes, livestream, i come in hyped and then see nothing but negative threads and end up feeling bad. This place is a fucking shithole, which for some reason im addicted to so i cant stop coming here.


HijacksMissiles

I don't dislike the changes because other people dislike them. If you showed me those changed, particularly the necro changes, in a total vacuum I would still laugh my ass off. "our minion archetype is too attractive for minions, so instead of buffing other ascendancies we are nerfing the minion ascendancy." Killed me.


Grimarillion

Then why are you making a post on Reddit? Get off it already!


HermitJem

Well, I feel like your position is a bit too far skewed to the "unicorns and rainbows" side, so it'd be hard for you to be impartial on this matter I've played POE off and on for...4 or 5 years? I forget. I'm still here and waiting for the new league BUT I can't say that all the leagues have been good. Or all the changes welcome. Of course not. Can I say that we're moving in the right direction or that GGG is doing their best? I dunno. Too big a question for me, lack of info on GGG's internal structure. I certainly can't commit to saying the game is getting better every year. What I can say is, I'm still here. Still going to play the new league. GGG hasn't broken the game yet. Good enough.


Wujastic

You're right. But you're not. PoE has 276 active skill gems. How many of them are viable? So yeah, I DO have an expectation for them to deliver on making a core part of the game at least functional. And not to just keep adding more and more while leaving behind the older ones.


killertortilla

Almost entirely the fault of GGG for giving us a huge page of nerfs as the FIRST information about the league.


ilsenz

Love to see posts like this. It is high time we addressed the state of the subreddit, before we lose this place entirely to the monolithic consciousness of social media. You are absolutely spot on with your insights into why the fury gets taking to such extreme heights here, and I do wonder if at half a million users and counting it is just an impossible fight to win, but here we are. We are currently in what used to be the best part of the league reveale cycle. Coming to the subreddit now is an exercise in disappointment. The takes here don't make sense, a lot (and I mean a LOT) of the comments are massively wrong in an objective sense. Completely untrue statements rise to the top, personal attacks towards Chris will earn you the adoration of hundreds of people all because it fits the 'general vibe of the sub'. If you sound positive, buried. I don't even care if people are happy or sad with the game at this point, but I absolutely care that the anger is irrational. How do we walk this back?


Thuen69420

A lot of toxic and short-sighted replies you got to this post (obviously, the toxic people have to defend themselves they can't just accept that someone on the other side has a valid point). I came here to say that I 100% agree with your post, you worded it and wrote it very well and it was a breath of fresh air to read. Keep on staying positive! Some RELEVANT negativity is always healthy, and you seem to have a healthy balance.


GerPronouncedGrr

I'm not one of the people who regularly posts negativity here, but I am guilty of almost only posting here when I'm feeling negative about my experience with the game. I agree with much of what you said, and it's the reason I stopped coming to this sub very much (especially during the few weeks before and after a new league launches). Nowadays instead of asking reddit why my experience doesn't align with my expectations, I just go play something else or touch grass.


SocialDeviance

Aka "i lack the emotional maturity to enjoy something without relying on someone else's opinion about said something"