My favorite part is they have been indirectly nerfing every other trap instead of directly nerfing seismic trap...its so inferiating.


It seems like they really want it to be top tier , it baffles me how they protect seismic trap and other top skills like they re golden children but completely shit on decent minion skills for funsies and nerf them from all angles


Certain skills got so much favoritism from GGG that it's bizarre. Toxic Rain for example took fucking years before GGG finally brought it back down to earth. I initially felt like maybe patch notes will have further changes to skill gems with numbers tweaking and what not, but reading between the lines and new tweets seem to suggest that it is for all the character related balance changes. No more skill gems tweaks, no more ascendancy reworks other than trickster's for reveal. In that case, how the fuck lightning strike, nightblade, champion, occultist, pious path, seismic trap, forbidden rite got away is utterly mind boggling. And of course no buffs to many other underwhelming melee skills and some spells, no buffs to poison attacks, bleed. They can't seriously leave Gladiator with no reworks? Like what is going on?


How do you know they didn't nerf seismic though? patch notes are still not here


Fair point i hope they cut its damage by 50% cause it ll still be good just not op


Raider/Champ didn't get nerfed, neither did LS, neither did Nightblade..... Nice LS Raider/Champ league 3 times in a row because other options are DOGSHIT. If anything, Raider LS got super buffed because of it having 50% Spell Supp for free, where others pretty much lost 50% supp from gear.


First time? This is what they do. They don't actually balance. They nerf. Everything. I'm, personally, still butt hurt about Glancing Blows combined with Life Gain on Block correctly being identified, but instead of affecting the combination issue, they directly nerfed Glancing Blows, making it simply be take more net damage, so builds that *didn't* take advantage of the LGOB mechanic were directly nerfed, when they were merely "ok" to begin with (like staff blockers which has minimal capability to invest in LGOB). Also *infuriating. It's easier to remember if you remember the word in which it's based off of is "Fury." in-fury-ating and then change the y to i.


Yeah, it's infuriating that they just consistently nerf things in the worst way possible for the health of their game. There's one outlier in an archetype that's reducing build diversity? let's nerf the entire archetype into the ground until that one outlier is the only viable build, then also nerf it in the next league because "it's still too often used!" ...


Maybe it's part of "the vision" to have skills being straight out better than others?


It supposedly is! But then considering buffing skills Cleave is even more meaningless than just the pure numerical change


To your first point, masteries in general are a massive missed opportunity. There are still several things on the tree that should be masteries according to GGG's design philosophy behind them. One I can think of is Tribal Fury. How is that not a mastery? One of GGG's main methods of balancing this game and creating build diversity should be through the mastery system and it feels like they just stopped with it.


My guess? There are multiple balance "teams," one for each dev team working on league content. This one either doesn't like or understand mastery nodes. Edit: Team here is being used very loosely. Could just be one person, or a responsibility shared among other devs on the team.


Seeing that this is the fruit of six months of no balance changes at all, it might as well just be one person working part time.


I really wish the manifesto had more insight into decisions made. It seems like when changing things they unintentionally nerf other things. Which we then get an oopsie and wait 3 months or more for a fix.


> I really wish the manifesto had more insight into decisions made. They used to, especially around and before 3.15. But some of the rationales were so outlandishly dogshit and out of touch they were memed for months by the community. EDIT: Something something close your eyes and slam it for example.


The community's inability to react reasonably to things like the harvest nerf is how they earned themselves the reduced amount of communication


> This sentiment was summed up by a member of our design team who recently said "We don't want to take away the feeling of closing your eyes and Exalting an item, scared to see whether you ruined it or not." GGG's own rationales earned them the reaction they deserved. Harvest's state was one of the core reasons 3.13 remains widely praised as the best patch of all time. Don't blame the community for reacting to GGG's bad decisions. They don't listen or hear anything other than bitching (how many years did it take for them to introduce offerings->portals or not needing uber trials)


Remember when GGG tried to change how frenzy and power charges worked on a whim and without updating any of the charge-related uniques that such a change would completely ruin? They only walked that decision back because the community collectively gave them a [full-on WTF?!](https://i.imgur.com/mOHeSet.jpg) The balance guys (or guy) at GGG are *not* to be trusted.


And! *AND!* They announced that change less than a week after teasing Tinkerskin, the chest that made generating Frenzies as a trapper easy! The community designer stamped an OK on their final design, not knowing that GGG's planned changes to Frenzy charges would have made it absolutely worthless.


God I blanked that out of my memory, it was surreal


God I blanked that out of my memory, it was surreal


>GGG's own rationales earned them the reaction they deserved. If the choices made were bad then the deserved reaction was reduced success of the game. The online rage and instability is totally unwarranted. Doing a bad job making a video game doesn't make you deserving of online harassment from thousands of people. Being aggressive and hateful to someone on reddit however does totally deserve reduced communication (not that I think they're doing that because they're still doing long manifesto's and stuff). Like legitimately, why try to have a conversation with a group of people who hate you? Just tell them "This is what we're doing, buy in or don't".


> Like legitimately, why try to have a conversation with a group of people who hate you? Don't over promise, don't under deliver, and don't say "you'll learn from your mistakes" to repeat them over and over. Most people who are hateful and aggressive have been *banned*. I would know, I've served my time with those bans multiple times. 90% of the posts are people rightfully memeing GGG, or lowkey antagonizing them. It's not hateful or aggressive, not in a real way anymore. But if the perception is that our anger/outrage is "rage and instability", then grow thicker skin. I won't forget Chris' post that someone saw what was otherwise a funny meme post on reddit and *cried* over it. It's a bloody joke


> I won't forget Chris' post that someone saw what was otherwise a funny meme post on reddit and > >cried > > over it. It's a bloody joke They didn't ban you long enough.


>They don't listen or hear anything other than bitching How do you come to that conclusion? Reddit has been bitching about muh harvest for the past year unsuccessfuly If you ever decide to work as a dev in anything and work with feedback I'm sure you'll realize that "bitching" will not be your preferred or most useful form of input


GGGs inability to balance reasonably to things like harvest is how they earned themselves the community response


Reasonably balance it as in it's still the strongest crafting system in the game aside from recombs? Or what level of powercreep do you need to be happy?


I'd like to be able to find things like aug without using TFT. I haven't seen one since harvest league even though i target harvest every league.


GGGs inability to balance reasonably to things like harvest is how they earned themselves the community response


> Which we then get an oopsie and wait 3 months or more for a fix. The bigger problem is that "fix" never comes.


Manifestos used to be about very high-level lines of changes, and the reasonings around that. Now, they're about previewing the patch notes, and having white knights tell you that we shouldn't complain because it's not the patch notes, and we don't have all the details.


I agree with your first point but writing off anyone that has the logic to wait until they have the full picture as a white Knight isn't productive. Ggg have even said there are other balance changes so making any kind of full judgement at the moment is reactionary for no reason. A better complaint would be what the hell is the point of realising a "balance" manifesto if you're not going to show the things balancing against it.


>writing off anyone that has the logic to wait until they have the full picture This is the full picture of changes to players' power. There will be new shiny toys announced with the reveal, and the Trickster changes are coming up later... but this is the big buffs to underused skills, and the nerfs to the longstanding outliers, and every problem that they've worked on solving for the past 6-months, player-wise. There are likely mapping changes, and monster changes, and whatsnot coming... but map changes won't make me play Sweep, and won't get me excited about Charged Dash, and won't make Mind Over Matter more relevant now that I get a single extra mod (or potentially a different influence) on my chest. We already have the full picture, it's simply blurry... and to me, it looks large, yellow-ish, very sunny, with camels running around, like a desolate wasteland devoid of any excitement. Although there seems to be a shiny new toy showcased in the middle of the desert to make it look like things are different.


"You don't have the full picture, wait for patchnotes"->"This could be better, but league starts in less than a week, they will fix it after leaguestart"->"Cannot expect them to make massive changes during the league, wait for Manifesto for next league" Repeat.


Except I didn't say anything about any of that. People around here clearly just live for outrage. Getting furious about an update when you don't have the full information is fucking stupid. Downvote away, meme, add things to change the context it's just fucking stupid. If you feel this bitter about the game there are loads of great other things to play. Last epoch is getting pretty good go check that out. Alternatively just stay here and sulk and look like little kids either way it doesn't impact me. Perhaps you'd still have hair if you chilled a little.


No, but the apologists also exist on every thread :). Currently, there's still time to change things. ESPECIALLY because full patchnotes aren't there yet, they CAN still make changes without having to admit they did an oopsie. Now is EXACTLY the time to criticize and ask for changes, because now things can still change before they are finalized. EDIT: My hairs fine though, but thanks for your concern. Nice ad hominem btw :).


now its 6 months for a fix :D


Honestly I don't wanna hear their "insight" on ridiculously bad decisions cause that'll make my copium stock run out so much faster


Unless you run all 3 ele flasks, the ele damage reduction removal from PF was a pretty huge nerf to defenses on a recover based character. Even if you did run it, the effective buff to each flask is around 20% extra effect for 4% less taken, relative to your flask effect, which in order to be the same relative reduction as the old bonus means you need 67% increased flask effect BEFORE the 20% from Master Alchemist. So you invest more into flask effect, but you lose 3 flask slots for pure ele defenses and gain buffs that don’t affect Unique utility flasks or your recovery flasks; it just doesn’t make much sense to take it even still. If the buff was “20% MORE magic utility flask effect”, it might be different, but there’s not really any “breakpoints” for magic flasks (as opposed to reduced Soul Gain prevention duration on Soul Catcher, Dying Sun projectiles, Atziri’s Promise/Wise Oak’s fairly granular buffs) that really feel like you’re rewarded for investing the extra passive points; they just make PF feel more like “the class that caps ele res for free, and is a little fast” which is boring as hell. As much as I get the nerfs for unique flasks power, they were the standout feature for Pathfinders to keep up 24/7, and they just keep losing more and more reasons to use them. If PF’s identity is Magic Utility Flasks, why release a unique item that does all that but better? (Mageblood allowing 70% flask effect for free)


Reasonable points, honestly. Minion trees all looking the same has been one of my main gripes for quite some time now, hope they will add more specific clusters and wheels in the near future, like minion ailment focused nodes. Would also allow us to go for something different than the usual 2 cluster jewel setup.


With Brittle Ground being 60% less effective and Power Charges giving a total of 480% reduced critical strike chance, the crit mastery or nodes don't matter jack shit. They can do whatever they want with them, they're irrelevant. You won't be playing crit minions anymore, unless the new ring mods are like 2% base crit and 200% increased crit in one mod, which they obviously won't be.


>correctly identifying a problem >ends up only nerfing ggg in a nutshell.


I feel pretty sure that they Tried to buff pathfinder. They just don’t seem to understand the game well enough to manage it.


I posted several topics about how to buff pathfinder. Make nature's adrenaline grant actual adrenaline. Buff Veteran Bowyer so it makes elemental attacks really pop off. Buff Nature's Reprisal so it's not meme tier outside of AoE overlap chaos attacks. Actually put some damage nodes on the ascendancy that actually deal damage.


Only time i remember pathy being played was when poison conc was released


Pathfinder Cold BV with Indigon mana stacking was fairly meta a year or two back


Pathfinder has its own niche and its a bit.. weird. But I do think the change to Master Alchemist can be seen as a buff. Pathfinder is typically not a bosser, and while the new ascendency doesn't affect the most common unique flask, Taste of Hate, you can get decent value out of it with Quicksilver and Jade. The only issue is Silver and Quartz not scaling too well (Quartz at least gets some suppression). There's also elemental flasks if you need a ruby for example. I think the ascendency as a whole has problems though. If you play a Chaos damage Pathfinder, you have pretty solid damage options. But Elemental Pathfinder builds feels kindof strange because you end up with flask charge overkill.


u know we can see ur username right? - by Speaking_Is_Silver


"of course i know him. he's me"


streamer wants attention and his opinion to be seen/validated


So does random Redditor by commenting snarky opinion about streamer


So does the random redditor complaining about the random redditor, commenting on a streamer


My fave part of the submission is the opening line: > Disclaimer - this post is meant for GGG, I'm aware of this subreddit's general opinion. Yet............. he still posted it here to Reddit, instead of just e-mailing his thought's to GGG directly. Or maybe this was just because he posted it already on GGG's official forums & no one cared?


GGG has specifically said they look to community (reddit) upvotes/comments for gathering feedback. Nothing wrong with starting a conversation here instead of an ancient forum.


They also said they primarily take feedback form their own feedback forum. Which Asmo had already done before posting this here (https://www.pathofexile.com/forum/view-thread/3292416). But it looks like the people there also had a similar reaction: >it shows who's posting the thread so no need to put your name on it.


You have a funny name sir take my upvote


And you don't want your opinion to be seen? Why the fuck are you commenting then?


Well im saying he specifically mentioned his name in the title knowing it would get more attention than posting regularly like everyone else. I find it kinda cringe tbh


he's a streamer


Well in the interests of candor, I clicked to read this when I wouldn’t have otherwise because I don’t particularly value any old random opinion I see posted but I’ve seen enough of Asmos content to at least be interested in what he has to say. So for my part I appreciate the heads up, I wouldn’t have clicked in without it.


Yeah, LegoClaes thinks this shows an inflated sense of importance


What a sight to behold. A sane Exile!


Not for long...!


Hilariously, if you assume a pathfinder using Master Alchemist will be running a Ruby, Topaz, and Sapphire flask and you take the 20% increased effect and apply it to their 20% less damage taken of an element you find that it gives you an extra 4% less damage taken of that element. 2% less than the 6% they took off of Nature's boon. So here you go pathfinders, use 2 extra ascendancy points to come out with 2% less elemental damage reduction. Feelsgoodman And yes i know that flask effect means you will get more of the other shit granted by flask. My point still stands though and i think it's funny.


God the way they balanced the cd traps triggered me(hehe). Generically nerfing all traps, then adding power back individually into non seismic traps. Just nerf seismic you doofus. Same with auras. Grace and determination have a multiplying effect on each others added ehp, making them insane together…better nerf all auras I guess?




Didn’t even tag the GGG employees lol


They added minion crit affixes to the minion mods that are rollable so your option to focus on crit or not is made largely with your gearing decisions not your passive choices.


Reddit please note that this is how you give feedback. Thanks for the notes OP.


It’s slightly more eloquent, but it is actually drivel. The pathfinder feedback is ruined because of the direct comparison to champion and occultist. The minion feedback misses the point entirely, not every minion build goes crit, the trees for either are going to be different in 3.19. The seismic trap one is actually cringe. Nerfs don’t necessarily mean that less people play a skill. Defenses are taking a hit and saboteur is going to need to make up the difference with even more investment just to reach where they were before. More skill points on defense takes away from clusters or marauder stuff.


Wait, meaningful feedback with arguments? What is this? 2017?


Maybe they will change something before going live. For example, I remember that there was a big buff to herald of agony in their balance manifesto, but seems like they silently removed it later. Maybe they'll do the same for some nerfs related stuff.


Simple Solution: Every 5 Maps you clear - get 1 passive refund point Every end game boss you kill - get 1 passive refund point Every 50 maps you clear - get a bonus 10 passive refund points Every 10 end game bosses you kill - get a bonus 10 passive refund points ​ This still lets people use regrets to bypass the grind to get free refund points, but also rewards players for grinding maps/bosses that want to respec and experiment with new builds.


Good to see somebody knows how this game works. Too bad he is not working at GGG.


Do u even play poe?


Guy even makes some pretty good build guides. But hey, better make an edgy comment.


Do you?


Big agree bigman


This game is so immense that I'll never run out of things to try


Thank you for catching that on Seismic, I don't think I've seen it pointed out anywhere. When you play phys sabo, you drop 4 seismics + a 5th at the foot of a tanky mob, then ~5 seconds later that mob is dead. Reducing the cooldown rate or increased skill duration stats only makes the skill more irritating to use in maps, it does nothing to that first 5 seconds which is 99% of the use case of the skill. GGG is just making it more irritating to play the skill everyone still has to play without addressing the core problem: everything else in the game pales in comparison in the first few seconds of combat and needs massive buffs to be brought up to the level of Seismic Trap. Nerfing Seismic just deletes the only remaining viable build in the game, which is probably also good as it'll result in a large exodus of players like myself who are treating the game as an abusive partner rather than a game and who would rather spend their time doing just about anything else. That's a much easier departure to justify once there are no longer any remaining viable skills.


>Nerfing Seismic just deletes the only remaining viable build in the game, which is probably also good as it'll result in a large exodus of players like myself who are treating the game as an abusive partner rather than a game and who would rather spend their time doing just about anything else. That's a much easier departure to justify once there are no longer any remaining viable skills. what? :D seismic currently is not even in the top20 most used skills... sure its super strong especially in early game with low investment but calling it the only viable build in the game how tf are you playing the game? :D there are plenty of leaguestarter builds that can clear most content in game and so many better builds once you have currency to invest in an endgame build. there is a reason most quit seismic trapper after leaguestart


Don't agree with Pathfinder being weak, although I do agree that Champion is probably more deserving of a nerf than her. Other two points I agree with.


the fact is that pf has really only 1 viable build that a lot of people play, which is poison conc. theres no build diversity, why play toxic rain pf when you can play raider. the fact this a overall nerf to pf as well not even a net neutral change with flagellant being heavily nerfed making pf have really no good defense as the only thing was master surgeon and it got nerfed


Isnt scourge arrow a pathy build?


i mean about 40% of all pf are pconc, and week 1 it was 70% of builds. the second and third most popular for pf are lightning strike and toxic rain which you can play on other ascendancies which are way better, problem is all the other builds for pf are niche and not powerful enough to be even close in the meta


You see here is where you get mageblood and can play the wackiest shittest skill and still somehow make it work


Commentary when you haven't played with the changes yet isn't really "feedback", it's just armchair game design opinions.


Inb4 Cold Iron Point has been removed from the game


They are terrified of overbuffing an archetype and being unable to revert anything during the league.


>A lot of people are going to feel forced to play the same skill again, because it outperforms every other skill in the game by a large margin. I don't know if it should be 20%, 30%, 40%, 50% or more, So, we know its OP, but we don't know how OP? What exactly does this mean? I've yet to be convinced that it will be OP. Will prestacks and properly timed use of Focus wreck bosses? Probably, but if you screw up your focus, you're punished much harder now, and while nearly everyone is losing an aura, losing Malevolence or Ghost Shrouds (via Grace) does hurt quite a bit.


don't you dare talk about champion. Someone there loves it.


Nerfing the damage of seismic trap is pointless unless they drive it into the ground. We have so much % dmg in the game, you need to nerf one of its base stats like the number of waves, duration, pulse frequency, aoe, or add a new stat that it scales off of which requires investment into to reach the same old seismic trap.


I agree with the opinions stated but saying this post in not for the reddit community and still posting it on the reddit community is stupid. You could just send a email to GGG if that was your whole point.


Who the f*** is that guy?


Are you the WoW "TBC Hype" guy?


Great post, wish we could have more of this on the front page.


as for part 2, it feels like nobody in ggg's playtest team knows what they're doing and consistently provides flawed feedback.


problem: want to nerf something but the best ascendancies right now are our precious perfect golden children solution: nerf dirty goblin girl pathfinder and pretend we're actually helping


In regard to what you said about pathfinder being nerfed and not the big ascendancies like occ or champ . If they do nerf those ascendancies this subreddit and the community overall will probably make more outrage than harvest nerfs because they are universaly liked by everyone .


Wasnt better to send that per mail to GGG, or you want us to approve your big EGO?


One of the biggest problems with minions is that we really don't actually know what stats minions have that is more useful than others. People used to say stack accuracy as much as possible in minion builds. But that just went bye bye after next patch for no reason given. lol Then GGG this one gutted hitpoints on minions..which was the ONE THING hard to get high in the first place. So that was off the wall random weird change. Look, the problem with ALL minion builds is that we simply don't have a better stats page dedicated to minions. FFS people used to just run builds with ONE type of minion, now a minion build is weak af unless have skelly, zombies, spectre, AG all up at once. rofl You know minion builds are broke when the meta is playing skelly mages that require one jewel to dominate the map.


heh, if only they would read this.. Seems they did not read even post with thousands of upvotes, for example one where someone explained why nerfing deffences if huge step back for this game.. And they did it very stupidly by nerfing these auras and removing reservation mastery from tree (facepalm).


Lol what kind of fucking hell are we in where "Someone posted a rant on reddit that got a bunch of upvotes" is an argument for why it should just go right into the game design. Fuck me.


because it was one of most popular posts in last month :)?


That....doesn't really change anything? It's still just a reddit post that got a bunch of upvotes. That shouldn't compel the devs to do anything unless it makes sense with what they're doing on their end - which is up to them.


People were posting it very regulary, there were multiple talks about it, but anyway.. I hope you will enjoy current state of the game. I am not that sadistic to myself because after deffense nerfs (while player was getting random oneshots), it will be pure torture to play this game for me, especially with new (terrible) archnemesis mods.


What players post on reddit is a very small part of what should inform developers in making the game. The number of times it's posted and the number of upvotes those posts have doesn't change the fact that the public opinion on the PoE reddit is not the priority. It could be on the sub banner and it still wouldn't change that.


Main feedback is here. Everything else is marginal so I do not know where you see "big" part. Facebook? Single emails? Twitter? Their forums? It is still very small part comparing to reddit. Did I miss some bigger comunity of this game or it is just your lie? :|


Player feedback is a small part of developing a game. Most of the direction needs to come from the developers and their data. Players are great at telling you when things are problems and awful at telling you how to fix them and generally you shouldn't be implementing solutions because a lot of people in your community suggest them.


Cold Iron Point was a mistake


So, if this post is for ggg and you're not chasing clout, why not just email Chris directly?