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Golos Banned, Worldfire Unbanned

Golos Banned, Worldfire Unbanned

Killericon

Since the site is struggling: >SEPTEMBER 2021 QUARTERLY UPDATE >2021-09-13 SHELDON MENERY >RULES >Rule 10 is removed. Rule 11 is renumbered to Rule 10. >CARDS >Worldfire is Unbanned >Golos, Tireless Pilgrim is Banned >Rule 10, which stated that commanders were subject to The Legend rule, was created in the days when The Legend rule was less stable; the rule remained as an artifact of that time. It’s not a Commander-specific rule, but simply existed as a clarification. Since it’s redundant, we chose to eliminate it. This change is administrative only and will have no impact on how games are played. Rule 11 bumps up to Rule 10. >Worldfire was once banned due to the problematic interaction with floating mana and having access to your Commander. We want to foster a Commander environment where 8- and 9-mana spells are viable and likely to show up in a game, so we evaluate the expensive ones in that context. Unlike Coalition Victory and Biorhythm, which we continue to believe are problematic in that environment, the level of effort needed to make Worldfire effective is sufficient that we suspect it will not be as much of an issue. There are already cheaper ways to do similar things in the format. We believe the social contract and robust pregame discussions will keep Worldfire out of games in which it doesn’t belong. >Golos, Tireless Pilgrim has been a much-discussed card that is both popular to play with and unpopular to play against. There are many problems with the card, but the greatest is that in the low-to-middle tiers where we focus the banlist, Golos is simply a better choice of leader for all but the most commander-centric decks. Its presence crushes the kind of diversity in commander choice which we want to promote. You can drop in Golos and a few 5-color lands into a random deck and get all the ramp and card advantage you would ever want from a commander, with no worries about your mana base. Golos’ ability effectively reduces the commander tax to one and once you hit seven mana (with Golos assuring that you have WUBRG and helping you get there quickly), you don’t need to do anything for the rest of the game except cast spells for free—something we always want to be careful about. We’ve talked to the folks in Studio X and they understand the problems created by generically-powerful five-color commanders that don’t have WUBRG in their mana cost. We don’t expect similar cards to come from them in the future, so a surgical strike now makes sense. We understand that many players love Golos, so we don’t take this action lightly. In the end, the health of the format is our primary concern and we find Golos unhealthy. While Kenrith, the Returned King is a similarly flexible and popular commander for good stuff five color decks, we see it as a clear step down from Golos.


dieyoubastards

What's Studio X?


LaptopsInLabCoats

The part of WotC that makes MtG


Soft_Cranberry_4249

Studio Q makes MtG secretly. Studio X is just the puppets they let the public know about.


boringdude00

Its pretty obvious that Mark Rosewater is a robot run by squirrels.


Soft_Cranberry_4249

15 squirrels to be precise.


bluntmandc123

Actually 14 squirels, the 15th squirrel is actually a chipmunk in disguise, the puppet master


RayWencube

[angry Emrakul noises]


Bloodygaze

Squirrels from a space carnival.


Killericon

https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/R%26D#Studio_X


R_V_Z

> We don’t expect similar cards to come from them in the future, so a surgical strike now makes sense. C'mon Sheldon, would it have killed you to say a "Surgical Extraction now makes sense."


DarkStarStorm

He doesn't know what that card is.


CertainDerision_33

Nice of them to clarify that they are specifically aiming this action at the casual play level. That’s the correct choice for the format and they should keep it up.


KelloPudgerro

golos was like the ultimate commander, u get ANY land on etb, u get a win con on it, u get a decent body and its colorless so it avoids a few removal spells


chain_letter

Colorless is a problem for being too good, they explained that part. By costing 5 colorless instead of having a specific combination of colors that can be hard to get to, the player can cast him with any combination of colors, and then he fixes the colors of their mana base. He was a really graceful solution to the main challenge of building 5 colors.


Blazerboy65

> By costing 5 colorless I *desperately* wish Golos had cost {C}{C}{C}{C}{C}!


enjolras1782

That would have made him much harder to get out and encouraged unique deck building


orlouge82

Even just two or three {C}'s in the casting cost would make him much harder to cast.


ColonelError

And impossible to play in Standard, which is my biggest problem with their insistence on putting Commander cards in every product. You have to build a card for Commander, and balance it for Standard. These random set booster cards are a better solution.


RayWencube

The best solution is for WOTC to just stop designing for commander because the ruin everything they touch not named standard


Dyb-Sin

I wouldn't call that a graceful solution.. it was more like hey let's take away the downsides of 5C and keep the upsides.


b_fellow

It was so predictable to see [[Field of the Dead]] followed by [[Vesuva]]/[[Thespian Stage]] that pretty much 100% consistency from Golos. Ive done that line of play one too many times.


Packrat1010

Agreed except for your last point because he's an artifact as well. I would argue that makes him more susceptible to removal.


Bolas_the_Deceiver

yeah but removal doesn't matter because you don't really pay commander tax. Besides they are pumping out zombies with FoTD and doubling and tripling them up with Vesuva and Thespians Stage.


b_fellow

He’s one of the commanders you gladly have it killed to ramp again with basically needing 1 more mana to pay each time.


randomdragoon

Nevertheless, removal for Golos sucks because he fetches lands on ETB. It's like he always pays for half his future commander tax by himself. You'd need to have removal AND a torpor orb out to feel like you're significantly slowing Golos down.


roguemenace

They've only ever banned one card because of competitive and it required every person in the competitive community agreeing, multiple members of the CAG advocating for it and it being a card that no one ever played in casual.


hrpufnsting

Do we need to raise money to get them a website that isn’t run off an old TI-81 calculator?


metalmagic4

Are you implying that we can play Doom on their website?


hrpufnsting

Well you would have to actually be able to connect to the website to be certain.


metalmagic4

I'll try at 2AM when there's only one other person viewing the site.


RBGolbat

> We’ve talked to the folks in Studio X and they understand the problems created by generically-powerful five-color commanders that don’t have WUBRG in their mana cost. We don’t expect similar cards to come from them in the future, so a surgical strike now makes sense. This seems like the most important part of this announcement.


surely_not_erik

I'm not seeing why this is important, can you explain?


CertainDerision_33

In Commander being 5C is mostly an upside because it vastly expands your card pool & manabases can be so good that juggling 5 colors isn’t that hard. The sole drawback is actually needing 5C to cast your commander, and these kinds of faux-5C commanders removed even that. Golos was particularly egregious because he has a fantastic ETB effect so you don’t even need 5 colors available to get a ton of generic value off of him. Just a totally soulless and unfun goodstuff commander in a format that’s supposed to be about cool and colorful build-arounds.


Milskidasith

Golos pretty much ignores every safety valve aspect of a 5C Commander. * He's incredibly easy to cast, meaning that your deck doesn't need great fixing. * He pays for most of his own command tax (and guarantees your next land drop if you bring in a bounceland), alongside fixing your mana, so removing him doesn't matter. * He doesn't require any deckbuilding concessions since his ability is generically powerful. * His tutoring lands gives him incredibly consistent backup plans, including constant access to powerful utility effects. * He's an absolute must-kill threat on his own even from no-board state. Most 5C commanders don't meet these metrics. First Sliver is color intensive and requires slivers (or to be playing Food Chain combo, I guess). Codie locks you out of permanent cards. Hell, even Kenrith, another poster-boy for this archetype, still doesn't do anything if he gets removed quickly and still *kind of* pushes you towards certain kinds of cards and to care about your GY.


hawkshaw1024

> He's incredibly easy to cast, meaning that your deck doesn't need great fixing. Post-2019 Magic has a lot of harmful design tropes, but I think the single-colour five-colour commander is my least favourite one. Good grief.


CertainDerision_33

Yup, it’s horrible. I’m glad that the RC asked them to knock it off. 5C is so boring and REALLY doesn’t need the help. It should be limited to tribal legends that actually need 5C like Dragons and Slivers, plus really jank specific build-arounds.


SynSeraph

The only new 5 color commander I want is an angel tribal commander so I can stuff all my angels in there and replace Morophon.


CertainDerision_33

As a fellow Angel tribal player, I kinda want a Mardu one instead of a 5C one. Angels don't really need a 5C one the way dragons do since Angels are so overwhelmingly concentrated in Mardu. I wouldn't say no, though!


SirClueless

There's a reason Kaalia is such a popular commander. I can see why a dedicated Angel-themed commander would be preferable though.


Gamer4125

But then no Sigarda :(


Yentz4

I think [[Maelstrom Archangel]] is a good one for this if you have a playgroup that will rule 0 it.


HerakIinos

You can replace Morophon with Esika


Tuffbunny13

Exactly this. When I used to run Golos any land and mana rock combination was a perfect opener since I knew I was getting Cascading Cataracts as my land to then activate him next turn. Games got repetitive and stale for how to play him.


AnimusNoctis

And now there's World Tree to do the job even better than Cascading Cataracts


63Reddit

Fuck The World Tree. One of my friends ~~plays~~ played Golos gods, and would always get The World Tree. Which was annoying because his win con was to cheat all gods out & damage everyone else for a shit ton (he was a permanent-based deck; so, Primal Surge was his other go-to). What made it worse is he’s the kind who will say “It’s not a combo deck; it’s just highly synergistic.”


AnimusNoctis

Golos is the bigger problem there. The World Tree isn't really problematic without the consistency Golos gives it. In an optimized 5c manabase, it's a nice-to-have but not a complete game changer, so the decks that benefit the most from it are the ones on lower budgets.


Gamer4125

I would Containment Priest his ass


1-2-3-Geddon

[[Containment Priest]], in the same vein, [[Aven Mindcensor]] I also have begun playing [[Disallow]], [[Tale's End]], [[Trickbind]], [[Stifle]], and [[Nimble Obstructionist]], basically in that order. If you want maximum salt, [[Gather Specimens]] is pretty funny


Golden_Alchemy

I have the same issue with me. It didn't matter if i made it with different themes, at the end of the day the best idea was to play Golos and use its hability.


Rikname

He even has more than decent stats for his mana value


CertainDerision_33

Yup, all great points!


Fearlessleader85

I completely agree with this, but I like playing Golostomy Bag in the 99. Not so oppressive there, just lots of value.


myanrueller

Also, the other safety valve for his ability: Land hate cards like [[Blood Moon]] and [[Armageddon]] are frowned upon in most commander circles. There's a social stigma against land hate, even non-basic hate. Unless it's cEDH, running land hate cards is going to make you a larger target than the Golos player.


Milskidasith

Land destruction in cEDH is not particularly good. Additionally, land destruction is not the panacea people think it is. More blood moons or armageddons would not stop Golos, and Golos is actually *very good* about playing around Blood Moon since he costs all generic mana and can fetch up basics.


VoidHammer

Even Blood Moon has taken a pretty big hit in power in competitive games since the printing of Dockside.


Sandman1278

So who do I run now for my jank mazes end wincon deck?


Blaze_1013

The fact that Golos can get World Tree for perfect mana and/or Coffers/Urborg over two casts for a million mana made the base line of the card so stupid.


Soulweaver89

Not to mention [[Field of the Dead]]. Now let's hope that WotC follow suit and also ban Golos in Historic Brawl.


Variis

Along with Esika, please. Shit's exhausting.


joshhupp

I personally hate EDH decks that don't follow a theme and the good stuff decks are the worst.


R_V_Z

> mostly an upside because it vastly expands your card pool & manabases can be so good I would argue this is because too many people are afraid of going after manabases. Back to Basic, Blood Moon, Ruination... all are great at hampering greedy lands.


CertainDerision_33

The problem with that is that they hose everyone at the table, not just the 5C guy. It's not really a good answer, particularly at the lower levels of play they mention here.


Frankk142

Golos costs 5 generic mana, which is easy to achieve, yet he still allows you to play any card you want in your deck. If you want to play Child of Alara, you need to have access to all 5 colours.


Propeller3

There won't be more cards printed like Golos, so banning Golos takes care of the whole problem. If they planned on making more Golos-like cards, the argument would be "Why ban Golos when X Y and Z exist?"


artemi7

Effing hell, Worldfire is completely sold out. Amazon, Ebay, Cardkingdom, TCGplayer... The only place I can find copies is Star City, and they're $15+ for a card that was a dollar bulk rare last night


asmallercat

Maybe I'm wrong about this, but it will almost certainly come back down. It was banned in, what, the early 2010's? There are so much more powerful things you can do for 9 mana now, not to mention lots of ways to win before you hit 9 mana. I highly doubt it will come back to being a staple.


artemi7

I mean, Teferi's Protection and Eerie Interlude didn't exist then, I suppose? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


asmallercat

So now we’re at a 12 mana two card combo? lol


Loreweaver15

It's up to $35 on TCGplayer now. I wonder how high it will go.


Milskidasith

The [[Golos]] ban is somewhat surprising, if only because it didn't really seem to be what the latest Sheldon articles were focusing on. However, it's not unexpected, given the overall sentiment that Golos is frustrating to deal with and encourages boring 5C goodstuff decks. The [[Worldfire]] unban is very weird. It's one of those cards that's banned pretty much specifically because it's a sorcery that ends/resets the game out of nowhere, similar to [[Coalition Victory]] and [[Biorhythm]]. None of those cards justify bans on a power level basis, but similarly none of those cards will ever seemed like the kind of cards the RC would ever bother to unban.


Syroice

I feel like the historical reasoning for the Worldfire ban (ability to float all mana, cast Worldfire, cast commander) is now much more egregious compared to 8 years ago. Now we have multiple cards that can set up this exact board state (e.g. companions), which shows that WotC is aware and is allowing this kind of scenario happening, and we may expect more cards that allow this to happen in the future. I wonder why Sway of the Stars isn't unbanned though?


Milskidasith

As Sheldon said in the more detailed update, the issue with Sway of the Stars from their perspective is that it lets you float a ton of mana and then cast whatever you drew in addition to your Commander. I'd personally think that giving opponents an out to draw interaction and setting them at 7 (putting them out of the range of many Commander pings) make it worse, but that's what the RC said.


Ask_Who_Owes_Me_Gold

Coalition Victory's ban is partially a power level thing. The problem is that it wins "out of nowhere" and can only be stopped by particular instant-speed answers. If it were like [[Felidar Sovereign]] -- a permanent that waited until your next upkeep to win instead of winning immediately -- it almost certainly wouldn't be banned.


cswella

\[\[Happily Ever After\]\] is fairly close to being Coalition Victory without the banworthy aspects.


DazZani

Yeah i also didnt understand that worldifre ban, its a card that really sucks to play against


theblastizard

It's probably a trial balloon for the rest of the cards like it that probably won't break things but kind of suck to play against


SmugglersCopter

It seems fun to me. A race to who can deal one damage first.


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Golos](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/f/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51.jpg?1592517637) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=golos%2C%20tireless%20pilgrim) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/226/golos-tireless-pilgrim?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1fa48620-4c3d-4f75-be1f-c12c4aa59f51?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Worldfire](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/2/e/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11.jpg?1562552052) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Worldfire) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m13/158/worldfire?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/2ef3d4b5-0453-4bf0-b018-23b0c3b9ae11?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Coalition Victory](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/4/4/446824f7-dc42-42da-8bd5-6c37f3358d65.jpg?1562775464) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Coalition%20Victory) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsb/91/coalition-victory?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/446824f7-dc42-42da-8bd5-6c37f3358d65?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Biorhythm](https://c1.scryfall.com/file/scryfall-cards/normal/front/1/7/17d1a10f-ce21-4914-9984-c7c559161230.jpg?1593017425) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Biorhythm) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/9ed/231/biorhythm?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/17d1a10f-ce21-4914-9984-c7c559161230?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MagicTheBleaching

It would be nice to bring back banned as commander though. This is another case where I really feel like this isn't a huge problem in the 99 as much as it is as the Commander.


sonofShisui

…and the inverse of that, so I can play the elemental otter


Bobby-Bobson

In my casual play group nobody cares who plays Lutri, so long as it’s not your Companion.


Tenjin719

Absolutely, kind of dumb to don't have that separated


K_tty

tmk, the issue's always been that mtgo can't handle multiple different banlists for the same format. So either wotc would need to fix their spaghetti code (ha!), or mtgo commander would need to be abandoned by the RC/treated as a separate format. Given it's the only official place to play digital commander, though, I doubt either is happening any time soon.


Darth-Ragnar

Rule 0 MTGO EDH and just leave them off the banlist. So basically two different banlists, I suppose. If a player starts a game with one of the "banned as commander" cards as a commander, ask them to change decks since they're banned or say you just don't want to play with them (unless you're okay with it). Let's not kid ourselves: 99% of people playing EDH on MTGO are completely familiar with the banlist. It's not like there's going to be a lot of new players on MTGO who will accidentally select a banned as commander as their commanders unknowingly.


Raszero

It will be interesting to see if a Brawl ban follows. Anything that stands for commander must stand even more so, and Golos is already a groan test for many Brawl players.


N_Seven

The matchmaking algorithm that is currently broken would go a long way to fix that. Pitting Golos against other Golos or Esika players would go a long way to making it feel less oppressive and annoying to play against, since those types can go durdle in their own queue on their own rather than pubstomp people trying to play jank


nudler_boi

I concede every matchup against golos. Hope they ban it or fix the algorithm soon.


Chrysalliss

Watching Worldfires get bought up on tcgplayer real time was interesting. Channel Fireball prices are still low. Get them there.


MrWildstar

I have so many I bought years ago when my friends and I started first playing. I just o-ringed my own creatures first


jsmith218

When I first started playing I picked one up and brought it down to the LGS ina deck but when I tried to cast it someone told be it was banned.


Blackxp

Oh that's a neat interaction


snootyvillager

Codie, your time has come


Akamesama

Significantly more restrictive for many of the decks that run Golos.


kgod88

I think it was a joke


Mexican_Overlord

People think it’s a joke until they realize that Codie won cEDH Tier 1 con.


VoteNixon2016

Now I'm glad I never committed to a Golos Maze's End deck, since it means I can make an even jankier Worldfire deck


twiddlefish

I definitely have this deck. I guess back to the giant baby.


VoteNixon2016

[[Child of Alara]]?


twiddlefish

Yep! Obviously doesn’t have as much synergy as Golos getting maze’s end, but the built in board wipe is decent.


boboskibo

Do it anyway. Screw the rules! Jank themes are the best!


BeastMcFeast

My one wish in EDH was to be able to play Worldfire (and without any combo) simply because I think that card is hilarious. I had been collecting Worldfires since it came out (only via throw-in trade fodder so I only have a few). I was not intending this to be a spec because never in my imagination did I think it would ever be unbanned due to players playing it with the intent of combos. My day has finally come and I. CAN. NOT. WAIT.


JaceThePowerBottom

Calling a ban on the most popular commander a "surgical strike". I too perform surgery with a sledgehammer.


Trigamma

Listen, sometimes surgery is performed by nanobots and sometimes it's a battlefield amputation


YARGLE_IS_MY_DAD

LOL yeah, this is like shooting a paint can with a shot gun to paint your house lol


NotACleverMan_

Now the continued ban of Sway of the Stars looks even more silly. Honestly, the only reason I can think of that it remains banned is that the RC doesn’t remember that the card even exists. Just let it be free so I can stop pointing to it as an obvious and egregious example of why the banlist is nonsensical and forget it exists like everyone else has


WalkingOnStrings

I think I get unbanning Worldfire over Sway. Worldfire, even with no plan or way to instantly win the game, will likely end the game in short order. Whoever gets lucky and gets a cheap creature out first probably kills the table. The intervening turns will be very short as people are just drawing a card and seeing if they can play it. Sway is more like a complete game reset. Everyone has fresh hands, seven life is enough of a buffer to get going. It'll likely be a shorter game than a true new game, but it has all the rigamarole of Shahrazad, and it's much more difficult to turn Sway into a win. You can do similar O-Ring shenanigans, or giving it flash shenanigans, but less of them can win on the spot and everyone has new hands, so there's even a chance whatever you left on the field or on the stack will get answered. Sway without a plan feels closer to Armageddon without a plan. Worldfire feels closer to a big Comet Storm without a plan. They both kind of suck. But at least the later puts you in the end game.


Radiophage

Setting aside discussion about the costs/benefits of unbanning a card for now—and whether or not Sway's still on the shortlist for unbanning and just didn't make the cut this time, which could also be true—here's my attempt to play devil's-advocate... One of the most consistent trends of the Commander banlist has been to **eliminate cards that either A.) create a runaway resource lead if resolved, or B.) render the previous turns meaningless if resolved.** [[Prophet of Kruphix]] and [[Primeval Titan]] are contentious examples of the former; [[Sway of the Stars]] and [[Coalition Victory]] are contentious examples of the latter. Taking the above as premise, what makes [[Worldfire]] different from Sway of the Stars? Both cards are massive sorceries. Both cards, if resolved, equalize all players and create a sudden-death endgame. Neither card creates a resource lead. I'll posit that the difference here is that Sway *resets* everything, while Worldfire *exiles* everything. Exile the boardstate and cardstate and tell me I've got 1 life left? Okay, cool. I can do that. It's sudden death. I've seen this part of the movie before. And—crucially—the resources everyone has spent to this point are *gone*. Regardless of how the game now turns out, Worldfire ensures some progress has been kept, even if just in the form of a reduced deck size; **the previous turns haven't been rendered meaningless.** *Reset* everything and start over with a different life total? Well, what was the point of playing the previous X turns? **Those turns are meaningless now**; they will not have an impact on the result of the game. I grant that this might be threading a Pithing Needle, but it's a clear and defensible line of logic. Whether or not you agree, I hope you consider it clear and defensible as well. **TL;DR—IMO, the line between Worldfire and Sway of the Stars is that Worldfire at least keeps some progress made, while Sway functionally resets the game, rendering the previous turns meaningless and thus qualifying for one of the two main reasons the RC has banned/unbanned cards in recent years.**


EndTrophy

I think worldfire can and might often render previous turns meaningless but sway resetting the game and making it longer is the bigger issue.


TheLoLZezima

turning the game into a complete coin flip isn't better than resetting the game tbh.


Blackxp

Maybe they are taking it slow to prevent a backlash of two previously banned cards getting thrown into every U and R deck, some running both for the novelty of running a previously banned card? Maybe safer to do it in steps? Random thought.


Kazzack

[[Sway of the Stars]]


Kaigz

>Unlike Coalition Victory and Biorhythm, which we continue to believe are problematic in that environment They're still really trying to defend this shit huh? Smh


Finnlavich

It's weird too bc those cards can be responded to with more than just counterspells. For Coalition, you can destroy a permanent or two at instant speed to make it so they don't meet the criteria to win. For Biorhythm, you can flash in a creature so you're alive or you can kill some of the caster's creatures so they can't get past your own board of creatures. Like, [[Expropriate]] is just a better version of those cards that requires way less setup to work.


Syroice

I recently read a comment that made the Coalition Victory ban to me make sense, in that it's not the actual card itself that causes problems, but the *threat* of the card. When you're playing against a blue deck, you brace yourself for the inevitable Cyclonic Rift that will appear sooner or later. In that aspect, when you play against a 5c commander, with Coalition Victory unbanned, there is always the threat of it there, which may cause you and others to remove the 5c commander more often (since it fulfils half the conditions itself) than if it was banned, even if they didnt have it in the first place. This makes a bit more sense to me especially if you consider the casualness that the banlist is built for, to not create a feelsbad environment. Edit: Just to add that I'm completely neutral to a Coalition Victory banning/unbanning. It doesn't appear to be a signpost card thats used to "guide" players, and its a rather unique card, so I can see both sides of the argument.


account_1100011

Yeah, the Coalition Victory ban is 100% about feels and not logic. Which, ok, if you're going to legislate your bannings based on feels then there are other questions the community has for them about other cards like Moat and Bazaar of Bagdad and Timetwister...


BlackMageM

Rest in Peace my Maze's End Golos-helmed EDH deck. I played and won with you once. Forcefully retired to a 100% win rate.


Astrodos_

Just run any other 5 color deck with shapeshift for maze’s end. My short lived sliver deck won more often with maze’s end than with combat.


BlackMageM

Thanks for the suggestion. I only play with cards I opened so my only other commander I have for Maze's End is Codie. It was built as a flicker deck which probably wouldn't work as well with Codie. And I didn't pull a scapeshift and have no intent to get one I guess.


gushingcrush

I'm with you. Building Golos Maze's End was actually what reinvented my interest in the format. But I understood the problem after hosing two tables with 50 bucks budget jank.


Yaroslav_Mudry

Surely if Golos is banable in commander he's also banable in Historic Brawl. Please.


iAmLawBringer

When I want to do my daily win’s but don’t want to try I run a 99 land golos deck and 99% of the time people scoop before the game starts


Yaroslav_Mudry

I am one of them. The games just never end up being interesting. Most of the time you just loose. And if you win it's because your opponent got stuck on three lands or something. Just not a lot of fun to be had.


iAmLawBringer

The 3 commanders I insta scoop to are golos, esika, and kinan. They all just play out the same and its not a lot of fun.


HolyZest

Woah I didn't see that coming, did I miss talks of golos being banned??


ELESH_NORN_DAMNIT

Lots of people considered him(?) an annoying Commander when built in a certain way, but he also served to enable a lot of perfectly fair strategies. I definitely think it was unnecessary to ban him. Happy to see Worldfire is free though.


mirhagk

> but he also served to enable a lot of perfectly fair strategies. I think this contributed to it being a problem. Someone would take a thematic deck and go "huh well if I use golos then I get access to this extra colour I want". Then once you have golos at the head, it's too tempting to just put generic good stuff in it. Golos didn't enable much that wasn't already possible, golos just took existing archetypes and made them less varied.


ELESH_NORN_DAMNIT

Fair argument. As a lover of thematic and aesthetically-appealing decks, I can sympathize with this.


ColonelError

> but he also served to enable a lot of perfectly fair strategies Maze's End? Every other deck I've seen Golos helm has been generic 5c good stuff, with a Commander that fetches half+ his tax when you cast him.


Yellowben

My Golos Shrines deck. Noooo. Uh… Jodah, it’s your time to shine. I guess.


Panda_Militia

Time to shrine **


Yellowben

Goddammit. Lmao


Netherhigal

You know who loves shrines? O-Kagachi loves shrines!


somacula

Use sisay


Yellowben

That would make the deck good. I want to make it fun


retep014

[[O-Kagachi]] for maximum flavor


Starf0x32

Lol yeah i built a shrines/gods golos deck after kaldheim released. I'll just swap in kenrith i guess if my playgroup doesnt allow golos anynore...


HerakIinos

For shrines I would recommend Sissay


ELESH_NORN_DAMNIT

Others have already mentioned decks like 5c Shrines, Cycling, and so on, but generally speaking, yeah, Golos being an efficient commander who can fix your mana on a budget in 5c went a long way towards enabling a lot of silly, janky strategies that really benefit from being 5c.


ClanMacLoudsDonuts

I was running him as the commander for my [[Astral Slide]] deck.


Esc777

I don’t see why generic goodstuff deck should be a problem, we have rule 0, players can always just out power their playmates. If someone is crushing their friends with golos, they’ll just crush them with something else.


ColonelError

> we have rule 0 Rule 0 is a shitty cop out for bullshit in Commander, but that's not what the discussion is about. If rule 0 mattered, then why have a ban list?


Bafflementation

Rule 0 works more than one way. If your playgroup wants to keep using Golos, go right ahead. It's not a justification for not banning something.


das1330

I've been wanting to build Esika, but my playgroup kept pushing me to Golos, guess I'm building Esika now.


kuroyume_cl

I'm (slowly) building Esika Angel Tribal. The first suggestion from my group was Golos, but I chose against it because it's just so boring. Vindication for me I guess.


HerakIinos

I also did that. Playing Kaalia was becoming boring. Now I use Esika. It doesnt but a big target on my face like Kaalia did and since its only Angels, its not as opressive as the most optimal Esika build.


FelisMajoris

\~30 minutes later and Worldfire is out of stock on basically every site.


Ciretako

I can't imagine many people are buying them for anything other than speculation reasons.


FelisMajoris

Sure, and anyone buying them at $45 is getting burned bad.


LuridTeaParty

heh


_Lemonsex_

https://youtu.be/-v8SQRIKntE?t=230


aaronrodgersmom

Golos could be annoying to play against, but I found it fun navigating against the golos player and satisfying when you beat them. It's strong but not unbeatable.


enjolras1782

It's the bounce back I didn't like. Board wipe or remove their threats, and because of the land you're getting every time they just recast and keep right on rolling. Either way, it's the kind of double-edged no fun where the golos player just casts them and passes and everybody else has to hold up interaction There were so many builds I saw, from shrines to masques bloc to extra turns, but most were goodstuff piles.


aaronrodgersmom

I've played against a lot of golos decks. If the table recognizes the threat then it usually works out. If the table doesn't than it doesn't. While golos might be stronger the same can be said about a tatyova deck I used to run. If it wasn't removed the first three times I played her immediately I had enough value I ran away with the game. It should most definitely be something that is talked about in power level considerations but not something that should be outright banned.


capnwoodrow

Good. Now do historic brawl.


boringdude00

Was Golos a problem? Or at least any more of a problem than dozens of other annoying-when-abused cards and strategies the RC never takes action on because they consistently keep telling us that's the purview of Rule 0.


neekryan

They swear by rule 0 but it seems like that’s not the case.


NivvyMiz

Rule 0 is just not how it works. I can't walk into a shop I've never been to before with a rule zeroed deck


neekryan

Exactly this.


Ketzeph

Because it’s just better than basically every five color commander, and it’s hard to ever answer fully because it cuts its commander tax by so much. It’s basically a permanent must-answer threat that’s easy to cast as it can be played with any color mana (and it also mana fixes itself). And you can never really flood because of it’s second ability. A commander is a problem when it basically invalidates every other 5 color commander that’s not tribal


Babel_Triumphant

> We want to foster a Commander environment where 8- and 9-mana spells are viable and likely to show up in a game, so we evaluate the expensive ones in that context. Now do Iona and Sway of the Stars


Zeralyos

The problem here with Sway of the Stars is that you can float excess mana and immediately play a chuck of your new hand for a big head start.


BoredomIncarnate

You can’t reanimate Worldfire for 1 mana.


sleepingwisp

Nah, 4 CMC for [[Mizzix's Mastery]] 😋


BoredomIncarnate

WF generally needs a lot more setup than you have on the average turn 4, while the turn 1 Iona requires no setup.


Intolerable

Iona makes for a fucking miserable game of commander


Babel_Triumphant

I’ve had a lot more miserable games due to Winter Orb/Static Orb.


NinetyFish

I think the argument is that stax locks out everyone. Iona can very easily bully just one player at the table, and that kinda blows.


Durgenheim

True, but those can be removed pretty easily. You cannot even cast your removal spells against Iona if you’re playing the wrong color.


Aspel

Guess I know what to cut in my Sisay deck for Esika.


Zunqivo

Posted this on the thread on /r/EDH, figured I'll post it here too. For nearly every single 5c archetype you can think of, Golos was way better than every other option out there. If you want to build 5c Dragons, Golos is way better at the helm than [[The Ur-Dragon]], since Golos cheats on way more than 1 mana per Dragon. If you wanted to build 5c Gods, why use [[Esika, God of the Tree]] when you can run Golos and get 3 Gods for free instead of 1? Shrines, Lands, Superfriends, Tribal, Spellslinger - these are just some archetypes that Golos just does way better than a lot of the other 5c Commanders, and even if your deck is janky Bird Tribal or something like that, casting up to 3 free Birds off the top of your deck can push you way ahead of the table. A lot of players do not understand just how powerful Golos ramping over and over and casting free spells is. Fuck Golos. I'm glad to see it go. Worldfire is a fine unban because it ends the game quickly, even if the caster does nothing afterwards or has no combo with something like a [[Chandra, Awakened Inferno]] emblem on everyone else. First person to get a creature out wins, so the game will take at most 10 minutes extra. Other reset the game cards, assuming the caster does literally nothing afterwards, can make the game take way longer than that.


PurifiedVenom

Thank god. Most boring, overpowered, generic 5c goodstuff commander ever printed. Now ban his ass in Arena too


Blackxp

I really hope they do this in arena. You start up a queue expecting slivers, merfolk, weird shenanigans strategies, or that person that was playing [[isamaru]] Voltron the other day only to find Golos in half of the games. I suppose another large chunk of boring goodstuff decks are [[Esika]] but also have seen some fun stuff come out of it at least. It also forces you to cast the other side if you are having trouble with your mana base, instead of just getting both effects without a downside. Edit: Oops, meant Esika. Thanks for the comment below!


PurifiedVenom

Did you mean [[Esika]] instead of Yorion? But I agree. The HB queue is miserable with so many Golos decks running around. Part of the problem is that the matchmaking is broken right now but still


Blackxp

Oh thanks! Not sure what I was thinking there haha.


streetvoyager

I am sure historic brawl players wouldn't mind seeing this ban as well, at least the ones that aren't playing Golos, LOL


akrebons

This is a blessed day


QuantumAwesome

I’m glad to hear this. Golos was the definition of repetitive play patterns. Every turn, it’s just they cast Golos and someone kills Golos. Then they cast it again, and someone kills it again. And so on and so on, for every turn, until eventually the table runs out of kill spells, and either the Golos player ran out of life, or Golos gets activated once or twice and wins by insurmountable value. It removes so much strategy and decisionmaking from the game, because 99% of the time the right decision for the opponents is to focus all of their resources on destroying Golos, and 99% of the time the right decision for the Golos player is to re-cast Golos.


Dungeonmasterryan1

Shelden must've lost hard vs. A golos deck recently


weepingwinds1247

And thassa's Oracle remains? Fuck the rules committee.


magaxking

Coalition victory and Biorhythm are problematic cards but Thassa's Oracle is perfectly fine? I have no idea what is the RC thinking sometimes.


captainnermy

Pretty upset about Golos being banned. I get that he's a pretty dumb design, but I've got a very fair and very fun Maze's End blink deck headed by him that just won't work anymore. There's plenty of ridiculous 5C value commanders, and while Golos was perhaps the most egregious I don't think a ban was warranted. Plus he was one of the best budget 5C commanders. Just being generically good shouldn't be a reason for a ban.


Moralitea

Yeah, my Maze's end / bad alt win tribal jank deck would be in shambles if not for my playgroup not caring.


joshhupp

I mean, you can always just ask your play group and let them know it's land themed, not good stuff, it and see if they will let you play. EDH bans are only as strict and the people you play with. I was a new player in a group and played out a card they said was either banned or not allowed in their games, but they allowed it because my deck was trash.


Euronymous_Bosch

Join the club! My Maze's End deck is one of the only decks I've liked enough to bling out as much as I can. Bob Ross basics, Promo art titans, foiled lands (not that bad since they're gates but still), etc. And now it's just dead. I guess in theory I could swap the gates for shocks, keep the titans/primordials, swap Golos for Kenrith and do a shitty reanimator build, but eh, that's nowhere near as fun. The titans/primordials were just spice, the Maze's End was the real focus of the deck. Bleh. I'm sure my online playgroup won't care, but I'm more bummed cuz I was actually wanting to gift the deck to my brother since he doesn't have a deck and that's his favorite one of mine to play, but now it's less appealing to give him a deck he can't play anywhere once I'm gone and all. ​ EDIT: Once I've moved out of town, I mean. Just realized that sounded more ominous than I meant for it to.


Blackout28

I mean, talk with your play group. That's the great thing about commander. You can play with your own rules if your group is ok with it.


PanzerVI

I agree with the sentiment - but having to ask a group to use banned cards is annoying.


Syn7axError

Asking a playgroup not to use unbanned cards is even worse.


captainnermy

Yeah, issue is I often play with randoms at my LGS, and it's not something I want to have to discuss every game (especially because if I actually win I just know people would be salty that it was with a banned card).


CertainDerision_33

Bans always have collateral damage, unfortunately, but that’s not a reason not to do them.


a_speeder

I feel really bad for my gf. She's had a 5c cascade deck for close to a decade now, and when Golos came out it was the perfect commander for her. It wasn't just a pile of goodstuff Golos enabled, it focuses a lot on topdeck manipulation and the ramp and mana fixing was actually pretty well invested rather than assuming Golos will fix everything. Idk I never really ran across the generic piles that people seem to be talking about, and I'm sure they were frustrating and uninspired to play against, but it does squeeze out what I feel is an interesting and niche strategy.


Tekkactus

This is kinda where I'm at as well... I can acknowledge that Golos was hella problematic and I can accept that it's probably the right call that he goes, but at the same time I've got a Maze's End deck that I love that's now just a pile of cards and it's like... *welp*.


dotcaIm

Same boat, I have a Maze's End deck. I have no idea who to replace him with


Kinjinson

Sometimes you can't. I am hoping for a remake of Golos now without the activated ability. I'm even fine with WUBRG cost. I just want that ETB any land fetch for my cycling/swamp-matters deck.


shortstuff05

The thing is I don't think there is a good 5 color substitute. All other 5c commanders have vastly different focuses.


plazasesamo

I’ve played maze’s end forever under Horde of Notions, if you want a spicy alternative. The elementals that synergize and make it worth running are [[Titania]], [[Avenger of Zendikar]], [[Omnath Locus of Rage]] and [[Ancient Greenwarden]]


ZazimashX

I run Child of Alara as my Maze's End commander. Having a board wipe in the command zone has been pretty good when trying to amass gates.


DevilSwordVergil

Fuck Golos! He was a mistake for Standard and an even bigger mistake for Commander. I'm glad to hear that 5C goodstuff Commanders with no real downsides and overly easy casting costs are unlikely to appear again.


neramas1221

How was it a mistake in standard?


CatKatOrangeCat

As someone who used to play Golos and played against Golos: THANK GOD