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kris_______

Is it really possible to vote without an ID in USA?


MontanaHikingResearc

Yes. I’ve voted absentee since the elementary school polling places were closed by the Help America Vote Act before the 2006 election. Just mailed change of address forms to the four County Clerks and Recorders as I’ve moved.


PhiloPhrog

Yeah in my state they just mail me a ballot without asking and I fill it out and drop it in a box.


kris_______

It looks like it’s easy to copy a ballot or post more than one. What are the advantages of that method ? Too Costly to organize physical vote?


Odd_Description_2295

No. Not in my state You need an id to register at your local polling place. Then you show up to vote. Even if you vote by mail, you still need to register.


haroldp

Voting is handled by the states rather than the federal government, so it may vary depending where you are in the US. The most typical scenario is that you walk into a polling location for your specific voting district, a poll worker asks you who you are, looks your name up in a big voter book, asks your address, and then has you sign your name. The poll worker compares your signature to the one in his book. It's a fairly secure system. Just about as secure as the process to get an official ID.


ThePretzul

> The poll worker compares your signature to the one in his book That's assuming they do their job. The majority of poll workers don't. I voted by mail-in ballot in Colorado in 2020 and 2022 with a smiley face on the signature line to see if they actually checked the signature, because my recorded signature is actually my name. Both times Ballot Trax was more than happy to notify me that my vote had been received, processed, and counted without issue.


haroldp

> That's assuming they do their job. The majority of poll workers don't. [citation needed] Last election my poll worker complimented my signature because it was very distinctive (because my handwriting is so bad), and therefore easy to validate. Poll workers are there for a day or three and generally pretty excited about the experience, or that is my anec-data, anyway. > I voted by mail-in ballot in Colorado in 2020 and 2022 with a smiley face Mail-in signature validation is worse than useless. All bets are off with mail-in.


anomalyjustin

It is not at all secure. Most poll workers do not at all even bother to compare signatures. And in many jurisdictions it is outright against established voting regulations for a poll worker to even exclude you simply because the signatures don't meet their completely arbitrary standards of "match" anyway.


haroldp

It's as secure as anything else. For sure, rules and culture at the polls vary from place to place, and not every place trains it's workers well. But that is likewise true of the dead-eyed clock watchers down at the DMV, issuing official IDs. What backstops both processes is that you have to go into a room full of government representatives and lie right to their face in order to commit a felony for very little gain. People don't like doing that, are typically bad at doing that, and the risk vs reward is very bad.


anomalyjustin

>But that is likewise true of the dead-eyed clock watchers down at the DMV, issuing official IDs. Getting an ID at DMV typically requires that multiple forms of identifying documents are provided, copied, kept on file, and verified by more than one person in more than one department. They are also handled by paid government employees whose specific job it is to verify such information and who can be fired, or even arrested, for issuing false identification as opposed to being handled by an elderly, completely volunteer poll worker who is specifically instructed in not to exclude people for unmatchable signatures.


haroldp

> Getting an ID at DMV typically requires that multiple forms of identifying documents are provided But you can get one without a photo ID, because there is an obvious chicken & egg problem. You want a fake birth certificate? I can print you one from any of several websites right now. > They are also handled by paid government employees whose specific job it is to verify such information So they know exactly what my birth certificate from rural Alaska in the 1970s should look like, and would definitely spot someone trying to impersonate me? Or they will, "meh, good enough," because they work at the DMV and their souls left their body six weeks after they started working there, and they are just trying to get through another shift? And the idea that they will be punished for a trivial mistake of dubious judgement is laughable. Come on. In 2022, the barriers to getting a fake ID and casting a fake vote in person are not technical, they are purely problems of will and motivation. That's how lots of *kids* end up with fake IDs and yet very few people cast fake votes. At least with the DMV you get an ID out of it, with you can buy your friends booze. The pay off on a fake vote is approximately nothing, for a lot of work and a lot of risk.


anomalyjustin

>But you can get one without a photo ID, because there is an obvious chicken & egg problem. You want a fake birth certificate? I can print you one from any of several websites right now. Hence the multiple redundant forms of ID. Also, in my state you cannot simply have a printed out copy of a birth certificate. You need an official copy signed by the clerk and which has an embossed seal stamped on it. They are also numbered and the numbers are recorded and presumably cross checked. And the "soulless" people that collect these documents at DMV have absolutely nothing to do with processing or checking them. That is an entirely different department and is done at a different time and in a different location. No one is suggesting that having an ID is an impenetrable barrier to voting fraud, but it is better than the absolutely nothing they do currently.


haroldp

> Hence the multiple redundant forms of ID. Like an electric bill? Damn, how could I ever get ahold of one of those? > Also, in my state you cannot simply have a printed out copy of a birth certificate. I'll bet that your state is exactly like mine, and I could put my self-printed birth certificate through an analog copy machine and slap a phony notary stamp on it, because again, my birth certificate is from another state and another era, and no one in that town has ever embossed anything, and no one in this town has ever seen one like it. More than half of the voters in my state were born in another state. Lots of them are older than me. > No one is suggesting that having an ID is an impenetrable barrier to voting fraud I've literally had a fake ID. So did half the other degenerates I knew in high school and college. The DMV was so careful when they "verified" it that they didn't notice the first name was misspelled. The only real barrier to getting a fake ID is being dumb enough to risk it.


thrownoncerial

Lmao who the heck really thinks citizens are going to be involved in a major vote scandal? You cant be serious. You do realize that is much more complex than just adding to the numbers right? How exactly is voter ID any more secure than mail in ballots and electronic voting? All systems require the administrators of the system to be infallible. And youre saying to trust people rather than machines or a mail in system that at least requires a physical address and a human being with access to those addresses to cheat on votes. Nitpicking ridiculousness, astounding. ---- This is hilarious, Im saving this. >Lmao who the heck really thinks citizens are going to be involved in a major vote scandal? Who said that I think any of that? But, honestly, why would you not take every available opportunity to eliminate every possible source of fraud? Especially when it is practically zero impact to absolutely anyone. I don't think that I'm going to die in a house fire, but I own a fire extinguisher... >How exactly is voter ID any more secure than mail in ballots and electronic voting? Because one requires you to show up in person and show a government document with your fucking picture on it to verify you are who you say you are. The other is a system where you randomly mass mail a ballot to absolutely anyone who is on voter registration rolls that basically everyone agrees are routinely outdated and contain thousands and thousands of erroneous entries. During the 2020 election I received 5 ballots at my house for people that haven't lived there in almost a decade. If I was an unscrupulous person, I could have easily filled out all of those ballots and sent them back in, and there is zero system in place to verify if those are bullshit votes or not. >All systems require the administrators of the system to be infallible. No one is suggesting that anything is infallible. But verifying who you are in person with a government ID is absolutely more secure than having zero system in place to verify who you are. >And youre saying to trust people rather than machines or a mail in system that at least requires a physical address and a human being with access to those addresses to cheat on votes. I'm not saying any of that. And there aren't any machines involved in the verification process in either case. Thanks.


anomalyjustin

>Lmao who the heck really thinks citizens are going to be involved in a major vote scandal? Who said that I think any of that? But, honestly, why would you not take every available opportunity to eliminate every possible source of fraud? Especially when it is practically zero impact to absolutely anyone. I don't think that I'm going to die in a house fire, but I own a fire extinguisher... >How exactly is voter ID any more secure than mail in ballots and electronic voting? Because one requires you to show up in person and show a government document with your fucking picture on it to verify you are who you say you are. The other is a system where you randomly mass mail a ballot to absolutely anyone who is on voter registration rolls that basically everyone agrees are routinely outdated and contain thousands and thousands of erroneous entries. During the 2020 election I received 5 ballots at my house for people that haven't lived there in almost a decade. If I was an unscrupulous person, I could have easily filled out all of those ballots and sent them back in, and there is zero system in place to verify if those are bullshit votes or not. >All systems require the administrators of the system to be infallible. No one is suggesting that anything is infallible. But verifying who you are in person with a government ID is absolutely more secure than having zero system in place to verify who you are. >And youre saying to trust people rather than machines or a mail in system that at least requires a physical address and a human being with access to those addresses to cheat on votes. I'm not saying any of that. And there aren't any machines involved in the verification process in either case.


Odd_Description_2295

You dont need to compare signatures because its a 1:1 match. You already registered lol. You cant vote twice And this isnt 1977 anymore gramps, no one compares signatures


anomalyjustin

Yeah, dummy. And when you register, you submit a signature to the BOE and the purpose of that signature is to have something to compare to when you show up to vote and sign the book. This is an idiotic system for voter "identification." And yes, you can vote twice. Or 5 times. Or 10. All you need to do is know the name, address and polling place for another voter, preferably one who you know probably isn't going to vote (like an elderly person, shut in, someone who is handicapped and doesn't go out much, etc). With absolutely zero identity verification required to vote, all you need to do is show up, say "I'm Bob Smith. My address is 555 Main Street." They hand you the book, you scribble some chicken scratch and you walk away with a ballot.


kris_______

Thanks for that detail


Joescout187

It's not hard to fake a signature. It's a bit harder to fake a photo ID, especially one that has modern security features. You need supporting documents to get a state issue photo ID. It's not impossible to do but it takes more effort to accomplish successfully. just like cyber security you're never 100% secure but you can make it not worth the effort.


haroldp

You don't want to try to make a counterfeit one in 2022. You want to trick the government into issuing you one under an erroneous name.


kempff

"That's *differennnt*. Voting is a constitutional right!"


DrVaginaPuncher

It's actually different because voting is a time sensitive issue and voter ID laws are only implemented to disenfranchise voters by causing difficulty and delay. Gun purchases have a built-in delay and they're still just fine.


xXC0NQU33FT4D0RXx

Nooooo… you guys put the delay there, sometimes that doesn’t always work out fine. There is not supposed to be a delay there, and in many states there isnt one


DrVaginaPuncher

Ok, but I can drop that part of my argument and still be right; I'm not going to because you're essentially just saying "nuh-uh", but I could.


xXC0NQU33FT4D0RXx

Except buying a gun can be a time sensitive thing as well…


DrVaginaPuncher

So can anything. Voting is 100% of the time.


JoshfromChi

But there's literally a way to vote early...


DrVaginaPuncher

Which is constantly under attack and undermined as part of the exact same effort to disenfranchise minority voters.


JoshfromChi

Requiring an ID to vote in order to limit voter fraud, and saying that's racist because minorities can't get an Id? That's the bigotry of low expectations. Like what are you saying? That minorities are too dumb to get an Id? They have a lot of time before an election to get that figured out. It's not like the election just springs up without warning. Listen, I'm all for making it easier to vote as long as you realize if it's easier to vote then it's easier to commit fraud and you make adjustments to prevent the fraud part. Like let's increasing the amount of voting booths at each polling place, now we decreased wait times. Now let's add an Id requirement to prevent people from voting for others.


Joescout187

If I've encountered a serious threat of violence in my life my gun purchase becomes pretty time sensitive. Those built in delays have gotten people murdered with no chance to defend themselves and this disproportionately affects women and the elderly.


Agammamon

What 'built in delay' is there for gun purchases? And how can voting be 'time-sensitive' when you can, literally, vote a month before the polls open?


DrVaginaPuncher

Some states have waiting periods for gun purchases. A month is not an infinite period of time and that amount of time is constantly under attack. Thanks for the slow pitch.


Agammamon

So, most states do not. And a month is a long time in an election - or when a crazy ex is stalking you. Fetterman got elected - well, his wife got elected - because of that month. But if a month isn't a long time, what about 3 months?


DrVaginaPuncher

How about you just accept that voter ID laws are nothing more than an attempt to supress votes?


Agammamon

I already have - they're an attempt to suppress illegal votes. So why won't you accept that ID for purchasing a gun is an attempt to suppress minorities in exactly the same way you claim voter ID does?


DrVaginaPuncher

Because they're not. The opportunity to buy a gun will still be there once you go through the required channels. The opportunity to vote might not be. That's also ignoring the fact that presenting an ID for a gun purchase serves an additional function as a proof of age. Auditing after the fact can also nullify illegal votes but can't resurrect dead shooting victims.


Agammamon

>That's also ignoring the fact that presenting an ID for a gun purchase serves an additional function as a proof of age. Why would there be a 'proof of age' for gun purchases - but not for voting?


DrVaginaPuncher

Illegitimate votes due to being cast by underage voters can still be handled by audit. Also, by your logic, passing a test to obtain a driver's license (and registering your vehicle) should also be done away with...but that would hurt your position even more, wouldn't it?


SilverHermit_78

Voting in tyrants definitely gets more people killed than guns.


MisterDoomed

"Voting should be easier than buying a gun." ​ Usually stated by people who have never bought a gun.


ThePretzul

I never had to wait for a background check to vote, nor have I had to pay for a $200 tax stamp to vote quietly.


MisterDoomed

Ikr?


Odd_Description_2295

Ive bought guns...its not that hard Go to a garage sale in montana


uofudavid

Many gun laws have racist roots.


therealdrewder

You sure you don't mean all?


cysghost

Arizona has a gun law saying the Colt Single Action Army revolver is the state gun. I’m pretty sure that’s one of the few non racist gun laws.


therealdrewder

I guess I should say gun control instead of gun laws


cysghost

Fair.


Joescout187

Unless midgets are a race, hard to work the action with tiny hands.


Clear-Campaign-355

Gun regulation started with the NRA in an attempt to limit minority access when the black panthers were getting big. Which is why don’t support the NRA. Edit: modern gun control https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act


Buelldozer

> Gun regulation started with the NRA in an attempt to limit minority access when the black panthers were getting big. No, it didn't. Gun Regulation started _well_ before that, like shortly after the States themselves formed clear back in the 1700s. Hell The Mulford Act, what you are referring too, was modeled after the Sulivan Act which was passed in New York State nearly 50 years earlier.


Clear-Campaign-355

I should have said modern gun control, not regulation


Agammamon

You would still be wrong because the NFA came into existence 3 decades prior to Mulford.


Sdrake01

Care to cite your sources?


Clear-Campaign-355

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.history.com/.amp/news/black-panthers-gun-control-nra-support-mulford-act


Agammamon

None of this is true. Indeed, long time prior to the Mulford Act the NRA had an internal fight over whether they were a 'sportsmans' group or a 'gun rights group' because of prior gun control attempts.. Prior to Mulford they decided to be a gun rights group. They've been wishy-washy but Mulford was not the beginning of gun control in the US. The NFA comes from 1934 - over 3 decades before Mulford.


wilhelmfink4

They’ll use mental gymnastics to explain why it’s not the same


hkfskhsfuhkefshkf

If requiring an ID to vote disenfranchises minorities, then requiring an ID to buy a gun disenfranchises minorities. And why is it just minorities, by the way? I don't want to waste my time and money on government papers any more than a poor person does.


aguyonpc

I’ve brought up how minorities have never had actual gun rights so many times. Even today go to a city with a high black population and it will most likely be harder to get a gun. Lefties don’t care Leftist don’t want the people who live in the most dangerous cities to be able to protect their kids.


Dunkleustes

Oh no so disenfranchised by not being able to buy a gun! The Majority of mass shooters are white sooo...


hkfskhsfuhkefshkf

Why should I be punished for *other* people's crimes?


Dunkleustes

That's how society functions man. How is having extra redundancies to prevent abuse of guns punishing *you* exactly, you're an upstanding citizen right? There is always the black market, have at it. Voter ID's? The question on ID's for voting is a blatant ploy to prevent a silent voter base from voting(because they likely know who they will vote for). It's a tactic to reduce voter turnout of a portion of the populace that wants to be integrated into the US. You are comparing apples to oranges here. These are both important issues but in different ways.


hkfskhsfuhkefshkf

What is it about IDs that prevents minorities from voting? - Can they not afford them? Hand them out for free. - Can they not find time to get one? How are they driving and buying age-restricted items like cigarettes and alcohol? - Can they not remember to bring them? I feel like that's on them.


Dunkleustes

Proposed Voter ID laws require a driver's license or other forms of IDs issued by the specific state or the federal government. Please tell me how the minorities targeted(who WANT to be TAXPAYING citizens) are supposed to do that without citizenship? It's almost like the bullet points that you listed above wouldn't be a problem if these people were to be given said ID's. Now if you want to talk about WHY we need to open the doors to integrate these minorities then that's another discussion I'm happy to have as well.


hkfskhsfuhkefshkf

You propose that non-citizens should be allowed to vote?


HiIAmFromTheInternet

This is the fucking hilarious part. Holy shit I was tracking that guy for a hot second but as soon as he said “without citizenship” I had to laugh.


Dunkleustes

I'm proposing that people who have been here for a while and are upstanding individuals who just want a chance at living the American dream but are actively denied citizenship since they need to stay at the bottom and earn peanuts have to be integrated. But since they are denied integration AND their own voice: Yes. They should be allowed to vote, they have a stake in this pie just as much as we do. But some folks lack any empathy for anyone outside their immediate family/friend circle.


HiIAmFromTheInternet

I wish there were a way we could let people like you run a country for a while just so you could experience firsthand how absolutely terrible your ideas are.


hkfskhsfuhkefshkf

You're trying to treat a symptom. Make it easier to immigrate legally and become a citizen, and that problem is solved.


HiIAmFromTheInternet

It is literally impossible to create a secure voting system without a voter ID. That’s the game. They create all these bullshit reasons to gaslight you into not only accepting a criminal reality, but actively campaigning for one. If your problem is disenfranchisement that’s a different issue. Security and trust in elections trumps *everything*. You can put your faith in politicians to be honest with you, but I have absolutely 0 desire to suffer because of your best case naivete//worst case extreme stupidity. Of course you people probably don’t even bother to think how racist it is to assume minorities are too inept to figure out how to fill out paperwork.


B0n3

How about requiring guns to vote


Agammamon

So you're ok with the cops fucking with inner city Blacks because 'that's how society functions man'?


Agammamon

The majority of mass shooters are not white. The majority of the ones that *aren't involved in gang warfare* are.


[deleted]

[pretty good visual representation of it](https://mass-shootings.info/index.php)


I_Tell_You_Wat

[In 2014, North Carolina Republicans stated reason in court documents for closing down Sunday voting was "that counties with Sunday voting were disproportionately black, and blacks disproportionately vote Democrat"](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/north-carolina-voter-id/). That's just one that we have Republicans **explicitly, and on record**, saying they're doing voting restrictions for racial reasons. They're doing that shit all the time, they're just not always dumb enough to tell on themselves. [Here is the most recent set of allegations](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/17/florida-republicans-black-voters-justice-department). Yes, Republicans sometimes pass voter ID to suppress Black, and therefore Democrat, votes. Many [Democrats are open to changing some voter ID laws, too](https://www.npr.org/2021/08/28/1031164994/democrats-are-now-open-to-new-voter-id-rules-it-probably-wont-win-over-the-gop). It's just that they want it done in a manner that won't reduce turnout - as turnout increases, Democrats get more votes. Republicans want less people to vote, and are [lying about how often voter fraud occurs (it's actually at a rate of 0.00006%)](https://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/494189-lets-put-the-vote-by-mail-fraud-myth-to-rest/) to push their agenda.


wilhelmfink4

That’s a lot of information


[deleted]

[удалено]


FuzzyNervousness

They're both rights. How are they not the same?


cysghost

It doesn’t matter how many guns you buy, it does matter how many times you vote (or that nobody else votes for you).


FireHazard11

There is no prohibition on taxes on guns like there is for taxes on voting. Buying a gun requires you to spend money, while voting is free. Adding an additional cost to buying a gun increases the cost by a small percentage. Adding an additional cost to voting increases the cost by infinity. People voting when they shouldn't is a very rare occurrence and causes no damage. People owning guns when they shouldn't happens several times a year and results in dead children.


FuzzyNervousness

I'ma be honest with you - I dont remember what the comment said and its now deleted. Your dead children comment, though, indicates you're not here in good faith, anyway.


FireHazard11

How many children are killed by someone voting illegally? If you can't see any difference between the two rights then you're a fucking moron. Of course I'm not here in good faith. This sub is fucking insane, what do you expect?


FuzzyNervousness

Lots of children are killed by us voting. See the middle east for example...


uofudavid

Not the same? Why is one okay? Felons cannot vote/own guns... Constitutional right... Age requirements...


joule_thief

Felons can't vote either unless their rights are restored.


uofudavid

Same with firearms. Rights can be restored in some instances.


real_bk3k

Hand waving away everything that's inconvenient isn't a legitimate argument either.


Sdrake01

What's the difference?


Sdrake01

Is it because you think black people shouldn't own firearms?


Odd_Description_2295

Who killed someone else with a vote?


ThePretzul

All the people voting for warhawk politicians, that's killed a hell of a lot more people than gun violence ever has (of which nearly half is actually suicides and the majority of what remains is actually gang violence, but I digress)


Odd_Description_2295

So...all of them lol. Ok thats fair.


wilhelmfink4

Votes do actually kill, funny you should mention.


Odd_Description_2295

Who and when


wilhelmfink4

Whomever the voters decide


[deleted]

650,000 children yearly


Joescout187

Some 2 million noncombatants in the Global War on Terror and counting. All three major Axis powers governments were voted into power so there's about 50 million from WW2, possibly more because Chinese casualties are not well accounted for.


Agammamon

Ze Germans. Hitler was voted in to power, remember. All the people the US military killed - were killed because we kept voting in guys that campaigned on perpetual war.


Abominable_Showman

The real crime is that you need it to buy cool whip


Anonymous_user_2022

Can someone ELI5 the whole thing about voter registration and ID to a Dane? Where I live, we are mailed a voting slip a week before an election; we take this to the designated place, exchange it for the ballot and are done in a minute. Why can't the US do something similar and get rid of all of the angst and paranoia?


Tai9ch

> Why can't the US do something similar and get rid of all of the angst and paranoia? Because the politicians get value out of having an outstanding politicized issue. The Democrats get the phrase "Ballot Access" and the Republicans get the phrase "Voter Fraud", neither of which is actually a valid take on any underlying issue, but both of which get everyone really mad so they can't be rational about elections.


Buelldozer

> Can someone ELI5 the whole thing about voter registration and ID to a Dane? The argument goes that requiring ID to Vote leads to voter suppression because poor people and minorities _somehow_ can't manage to get a State Issued ID card...even though the damn things are required to do everything from drive to buy a pack of cigarettes. Even then the states that require an ID, like mine now does, will accept a laundry list of other things like student IDs, tribal IDs, , passports, military ID, and medicare ID. Hell even _utility bills_ are accepted in some places. > Why can't the US do something similar and get rid of all of the angst and paranoia? What you are suggesting doesn't work in a country of more than 300,000,000 people. The Postal Service would have to do nothing but deliver voter slips for _weeks_.


Anonymous_user_2022

> What you are suggesting doesn't work in a country of more than 300,000,000 people. The Postal Service would have to do nothing but deliver voter slips for weeks. Really? According to the USPS website, 167 million letters are delivered each day. Considering that it takes the same time, delivering on or two letters, I would consider it an easy task. Also, it looks like the population to postal service employee count is more or less identical, but I'll concede that I have no knowledge of how USPS handles letters.


ImthatLemon

To say that requiring a Voter ID laws to vote is racist is itself racist. Those idiots are literally implying that Blacks are too stupid to manage to get an ID.


haroldp

> The argument goes that requiring ID to Vote leads to voter suppression because poor people and minorities somehow can't manage to get a State Issued ID card This is known to work though. The more barriers you erect, the greater chance someone will fail to meet one of them, or simply decide not to bother. I personally lived for years as an adult without an ID. If the Republicans were the ones depending primarily on the poor vote, then the Democrats would be the ones trying to require IDs. > What you are suggesting doesn't work in a country of more than 300,000,000 people. The Postal Service would have to do nothing but deliver voter slips for weeks. The postal service in my town already delivers a sample ballot and a mail-in ballot to to each voter every election. And about 15 bullshit political flyers every day for two months. :)


Sdrake01

> more barriers you erect, the greater chance someone will fail to meet one of them, or simply decide not to bother. Which is why gun control is unconstitutional.


haroldp

Fact.


Odd_Description_2295

Voter regulation is not equal to voter control


Sdrake01

What's your point?


Buelldozer

> The more barriers you erect, the greater chance someone will fail to meet one of them, or simply decide not to bother. SMH, 36 of 37 Euro Nations (including Denmark) have a voter ID component in their system, either at registration time or at the polls. The US is actually an outlier in this regard being one of the very few western nations that _doesn't_ have a Voter ID requirement (at least not federally). [Their voter turnout rates are pretty damn similar to the United States.](https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/voter-turnout-by-country) So where is it proven that Voter ID leads to Voter Repression? > I personally lived for years as an adult without an ID. So for years you didn't engage any services that required an ID nor did you purchase any goods that required an ID? I've actually seen this done personally but it was an elderly woman who was physically handicapped and living a very "old school" lifestyle with a husband who did everything for her. In many ways the United States has _extremely_ liberal voting laws.


haroldp

> 36 of 37 Euro Nations (including Denmark) have a voter ID component in their system As a libertarian, "Denmark does it," is not good enough for me. :) > So where is it proven that Voter ID leads to Voter Repression? Proof is for mathematics and liquor. The *evidence* seems to be that it lowers turnout something like 2-3%. Here's an ACLU fact sheet: https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/field_document/aclu_voter_id_fact_sheet_-_final.pdf And the GAO study that it references: https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-14-634.pdf 2-3% is WAY more than what anyone half-way sane thinks fraud rates are. About 2-3% more. In-person voting fraud happens, but not really all that often. So it seems like a solution looking for a problem, to me. > So for years you didn't engage any services that required an ID nor did you purchase any goods that required an ID? Correct.


Odd_Description_2295

They also automatically register you, and they give you a paid holiday to go vote. Those countries make it pretty damn easy to vote, so thats not really a comparison


Odd_Description_2295

We do. You have to register to vote at your local polling place, that requires ID in my state. You have to be 18, and you do not get automatically registered, when you turn 18. Once you register with your local polling place, your record is on file. Like your country, you show up to the polls, they check your registration status, and they make sure no one has voted under your name, and that you are registered at the correct precinct. You can also choose to mail in your ballot. This requires the same level of registration I outlined above. Im not sure about the angst and paranoia you are refering to. I think thats mostly the media and politicians being dramatic imo. Some people have proposed that election day should be a paid holiday. But paid holidays arent given in the usa by law. They are usually left up tot he discretion of your employer. No employers give paid time off to go vote as far as I know.


olddoc1

Try getting healthcare without an ID. Check out the Affordable Healthcare Act for I'D requirements.


SkyMasterARC

Also the whole "cops are racist and violent, lets make sure they're the only ones that are armed" discourse. They've already established that the problem runs very deep and it's impossible to root out all the bad cops and keep the good ones. Then recommend we give them more power (red flag laws, policing the internet etc).


Sjdillon10

Iran protests would be a civil war if they had the 2A. Look how well arming only the state works


TheKelt

“But voting isn’t a risk to other people around you.” Ohhh I beg to differ!


PresidentJoe

Armed minorities are harder to oppress -- that's why Woke Leftists who act like they care so much want to disarm us...


ThePrankMonkey

Real leftists love guns. Those fake ass moderates however...


soUNTOUCHABLE

Gun control IS racism, so this checks out...


[deleted]

[удалено]


bhknb

Agism is ok.


bobredmill

The same people think you can buy an AR at Walmart and go through self checkout


Joescout187

That said there's no reason why they couldn't update the system, idk why you can't fill out the forms electronically, even the Army's vehicle maintenance system has that option.


eToilet_Inc

Don't forget cigarettes, beer, driving, fishing, hunting, boating and pretty much everything else you do. If ID is racist, then all these taxes and regulations are racist.


spoobydoo

The same people who say this also advocated for a vaccine pass in order to buy groceries. Hmmmm


ThePretzul

They wanted proof of vaccination to be mandatory, despite certain racial groups having substantially lower vaccination rates. Almost as if those same racial groups have been used as guinea pigs under the guise of a vaccination drive before in the past... That's not to say that's what was happening recently by any means, but if we're talking racism let's not ignore the elephant in the room and the reason the hesitance was fairly justified.


[deleted]

I mean you shouldn't be forced to have an ID by the government but yeah you should probably have some form of identification to vote.


SheikhYusufBiden

Genuinely dont get how any adult in the US doesnt have some form of identification


Joescout187

Age, disability, or apathy are the only reasons I could think of.


Apart_Number_2792

These same people cheer on vaccine passports. They are absolute buffoons.


Odd_Description_2295

When did voting kill someone...


Joescout187

Socrates... And somewhere between 50 and 100 million from various wars and massacres committed by democratically elected governments. Yes I'm including WW2 and the Holocaust. People voted Hitler and his party into power and I'm pretty sure Japan still had a parliament.


Travellinoz

A lot more people getting killed since Biden took office and it has nothing to do with gun laws.


MrNincompoopy

I love that video of the new reporter asking black people in the hood if they have IDs and they are like why tf would they not have one. Liberals apparently view blacks as savages to be pitied.


KillerManicorn69

No vaccine passports either


IceManO1

So no id to buy beer 🍻 yay 😀


crut0n17

So if getting voter ID is so hard for people of color, why don’t we all advocate to make it easier instead of getting rid of it? Are there really no post offices/DMVs in black communities? I always have to wait about two hours at the DMV, do they wait longer?


PandaVintage

How the fuck they don't require ID to vote in the US?


Rift-harold

It’s more racist to assume minorities don’t have state IDs lmao


ordo250

“Minorities cant get IDs!! They cant get computers!!! We need to help minorities escape the stoneage!! They can’t figure things out in their own!!”


CryptoRyche

The soft bigotry of low expectations. The left does it daily.


Odd_Description_2295

Libertarianism started as a left wing ideology


Joescout187

Same word, different ideology, coined independently about a century apart.


Chicagoan81

I love pissing off NPCs


Weenoman123

By making weak, shitty, false equivalence arguments? We should treat voting and guns as different in the eyes of the law. If you think otherwise, you're a dolt. The argument that they should be treated the same is stupid, and anyone using voting rights as a reason for more liberal gun laws is a drooling idiot.


Sdrake01

Why should they be treated differently?


ThePretzul

You'll get no reply because they have no answer, NPC's aren't programmed well enough to actually continue a conversation.


Weenoman123

I replied. Stack this one alongside the many, many other times you've been wrong.


Weenoman123

Because one is a pocket sized death machine, or a arm length violence distribution system. Capable of stacking up tens of bodies in a matter of seconds. So simple a child could use one, and they do. And the other is a civic duty where you pull what is essentially an opinion lever. Participation in said system is the only reason the non elites wield any, fleeting political power, at all. I know your libertarian utopia would treat the two as equals, and that's because it's a nightmare. This argument is so trivially simple to anyone with any rational or logical bone in their body. I award you zero points, and may God have mercy on your soul


Sdrake01

Because the people elected Adolf Hitler, their vote caused over 6 million deaths between 1939-1945. How many mass shooting deaths have there been since the ratification of the 2nd in 1791? I bet it less than 6 million.


Weenoman123

This could be the most idiotic argument I think I have ever seen. 1) Guns/arms were the instrument that allowed the nazis to invade other countries and murder millions. Like I can see that you used the word "caused" in your reply because you know this. And you're dancing around this fact. It's funny, and the only reason I'm throwing it in your face is because I find your absolute completely moronic takes hilarious. 2) Blaming *voters* for the holocaust as the foremost cause, and not fascism, propaganda, violence, is peak libertarian idiocy. It'd be kinda like blaming voters for the January 6th insurrection. Like, yes people elected Trump in 2016... But do you blame voters for people storming the capital? It's just completely foolish. 3) You ignored the farrrrr higher body count held by non-elected leaders over history. Voting and democracy has preserved an order of magnitude more lives than the deaths you could ever hope to assign to it. 4) Though the nazi's weren't without electoral victories, their ascention wasn't totally a democratic rise. Hitler was appointed, not elected. Get wrecked


Sdrake01

Are you European or American?


Sdrake01

>and may God have mercy on your soul Fuck God


Clear-Campaign-355

Bold of them to assume minorities don’t have IDs


Cameron_FLMan

Aside from proof of citizenship, go ahead!


DucinOff

That shouldn't matter either. Everyone has a right to defend themselves, which means everyone has a right to purchase and own a firearm. Doesn't matter that they're from a different country, those people should get to defend themselves, too, if they so choose.


cysghost

I think they meant proof of citizenship to vote, not buy a gun, though I could be mistaken.


DucinOff

Hahaha. If voting mattered enough to make a difference - it'd be illegal.


cysghost

I'm only laughing because otherwise I'd cry.


DucinOff

I'm sorry. Have a virtual hug, on the house. 🤗


TheMexitalian

Many gun laws and voting laws have racist roots and this is the argument to allow infringing in both rather than address the issue. Congrats.


Billybob_Bojangles2

These terms are acceptable


Schmeep01

I’m cool with not requiring ID for either; no need to make things *more* authoritarian.


Sdrake01

Agreed


random_impiety

Right? Abolish government IDs, or, if we make it required to participate in rights as a citizen like voting, then it's not our obligation to make sure we all take whatever steps and pay wherever fees required to obtain one and be penalized if we don't or can't. It should be on the issuing government to make sure each citizen gets one, and if they don't, then *they* get penalized, not us.


TechnologyImpos1

I agree we should abolish all required government IDs.


ThatMBR42

So, wanting to take reasonable measures to prevent people from voting multiple times, voting by proxy, etc. is nakedly racist, but assuming black people don't have IDs or internet access is just fine? Yeah, sure.


Sebastian-

You know, I'm more on the voter ID is racist side, but I think I would have to just concede that I also think the gun ID is racist in the same way. A difference that I can identify is that I'm not buying a vote; voting is free. The idea behind a voting ID being racist is that it disproportionately affects the poor because the process of getting a driver's license is expensive, and if you can't afford a car, it's likely an expense you would forgo. Race enters the equation because of the socioeconomic disparity among the races in the US. An ID for buying a gun might be different because guns are already expensive, so the purchaser of a gun is more likely to have invested in a driver's license. I still would agree that the argument that it is also racist applies though


El-Hermetico369

Bit too much nuance for this sub


Sebastian-

Fair


anomalyjustin

>The idea behind a voting ID being racist is that it disproportionately affects the poor because the process of getting a driver's license is expensive, and if you can't afford a car, it's likely an expense you would forgo. You don't need to own a car or get a driver's license to obtain government issued ID. There are all sorts of non drivers ID cards. And almost all states (if not all) have an option that doesn't cost anything. Zero dollars. The argument that it is racist, expensive, difficult to obtain, etc is idiotic from basically every angle and is basically racist in and of itself because it is basically saying that minorities are too poor, too stupid, and too worthless to figure out how to navigate even one of the most basic functions of living in society.


Sebastian-

I wasn't saying that you need to own a car, but if you can't afford one, it is likely you won't spend the time and money on obtaining a driver's license. That being said, the issue of voter ID is complicated in itself because often only a narrow set of government issued IDs are accepted, so those free government IDs may not even apply depending on the specific state and law. Correlation is not causation. I'm not arguing that anyone's financial situation is a result of their race. The statistical fact remains that legislation that disproportionately affects the poor disproportionately affects people of color as well.


anomalyjustin

>because often only a narrow set of government issued IDs are accepted, so those free government IDs may not even apply depending on the specific state and law. This is not at all true. All manner of government issued IDs will suffice for voting. And pretty much all of the free "non driver ID cards" issued by the DMV and many other state agencies work just fine for voting. It is a fucking dumb argument that is not at all grounded in reality. It is also completely ignorant of the fact that basically every adult human in the US already has government issued ID because you need it for absolutely everything from renting an apartment to opening a bank account to collecting welfare and subsidized healthcare, to buying alcohol and cigarettes to using SNAP benefits to establishing a cell phone plan, getting utilities, entering a club, getting a Covid vaccine or flu shot, etc. Finding a person without an ID in 2022 is like spotting a unicorn or bigfoot. >The statistical fact remains that legislation that disproportionately affects the poor disproportionately affects people of color as well. Really? Can you point to an actual, quantifiable data based peer reviewed study that confirms this? Because common sense would dictate that if they are exceptionally poor then they would also utilize government subsidies at a disproportionately higher rate, all of which already require government ID. They also smoke, drink alcohol, and play lotto at a disproportionately higher rate, all of which require ID.


Sebastian-

I was pretty easily able to find this article: https://www.aclu.org/fact-sheet/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-sheet This points out that 11% of americans do not have photo ID. Some states will accept any ID, but many require a photo ID. 11% is a pretty common unicorn. I also can't help but point out that you're arguing in bad faith. You state that people need ID to smoke, drink, and gamble, but I think you know better. I don't know where you live, but as soon as I got facial hair, I stopped getting carded for any of these things, and I bet you did too.


AmanteApacionado

What government ID can you get for zero dollars? Just curious.


anomalyjustin

Every state typically has a "non driver ID card" which is often also issued by DMV, that costs nothing or next to nothing. Some states even have legislatively mandated free ID card. And basically all of the states have some form of waiver or exemption process for ID fees for people with financial hardships. Besides that, even at full price, the mean cost of an ID across all 50 states is $17.50 and the median is $16. This is hardly an insurmountable financial burden for basically anyone.


AmanteApacionado

Okay, so in most places, there is not a government issued ID that you can get for ZERO dollars. Does that not-so insurmountable hardship include having to take time off work and pay for transportation to and from the DMV too? Or are you forgetting that as well?


anomalyjustin

>Okay, so in most places, there is not a government issued ID that you can get for ZERO dollars. Yes, in most every state there is a form of government issued ID that you can get for zero dollars. >Does that not-so insurmountable hardship include having to take time off work and pay for transportation to and from the DMV too? Or are you forgetting that as well? Jesus christ. If you can't come up with $20 max (but again, probably zero $) and take a bus to DMV one time, you probably aren't adult enough to be trusted to vote in the first place. Also, if you are honestly this destitute you are already likely on public assistance, which already required you to obtain government issued ID and find multiple rides to various places and take days off of work (if you even work in the first place). And if getting time and a ride somewhere is impossible for you, how the fuck do you think you are going to manage to vote in the first place. Seriously, there is almost no adult alive in the US in 2022 that doesn't have an ID already. You need an ID for absolutely everything.


AmanteApacionado

So, the RIGHT to vote should be determined by who can make it to the DMV? Is that what the founders intended? Isn’t that why they made exceptions for farmers? You’ve also left out people who are required to get a copy of their birth certificate and social security card just to get this NOT FREE government ID, both of which take time and money to get. But I just wanted to go back and touch on the ZERO dollar ID, I have yet to find a state that issues a free ID to anyone. Please feel free to correct me though. I am ALL in favor of a FREE federally issued government ID for any citizen, but that doesn’t exist. I’m not going to argue that the current system is racist, but I will argue that it is CLASSIST, which is equally wrong. As for HOW those disenfranchised citizen should be able to vote… why don’t we make it a national holiday so taking time off work isn’t an issue for most?


Odd_Description_2295

You have to pay in pennsylvania


chadmuffin

It’s not that requiring and ID is racist but the steps to get an ID could be if they are not fair for everyone.


anomalyjustin

They already are. Everyone has to go through the exact same (very simple) process. It doesn't get any more fair than that.


El-Hermetico369

Weird how all the "libertarians" are all of a sudden pro registry 🤦🏽‍♂️


Sdrake01

It's about being fair, if voting is a right that can not be infringed by requiring an ID, than firearms should be the same. Why is one considered an undue burden but the other is not?


conkedorya

If you think the right to vote and the right to buy a firearm is equivalent, you are a dumb fuck, worthless Libertarian.


Sdrake01

The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Where does it mention voting?


random_impiety

> The Second Amendment to the US Constitution doesn't mention voting > therefore, voting is not important or not as important as firearm ownership Am I totally misunderstood your logic? How the hell are you making this connection?


Sdrake01

Where is voting mentioned in the constitution. Quot it.


random_impiety

Ohhhh, now I see where you think you're coming from. Thank you, got it.


majoroutage

I'm not sure you interpreted this post correctly.


El-Hermetico369

Maybe not


WolfieWins

Why is voter ID racist & who is saying that? Haven’t seen it.


Agammamon

The Democratic Party.