By - theferalturtle
Well, the risk of that is a good reason to avoid such situations or advertising your capabilities/politics.
It doesn't have to be a wide spread thing or even representive of the right to be a risk.
I get this attitude. But if only the conservative armed faction shows up at polling places, then they get to choose who is intimidated. How do we solve that in places where the right controls the laws? Is that good for democracy? Is there a solution do you feel? I’m asking genuinely.
I mean most polling places are already gun free zones (schools or government buildings) so there isn't a legal way to LARP there. There is also voting by mail or early voting to avoid issues.
What most people are talking about with LARPing is at protests which is more optional. I'd also argue protesting is questionable in effectiveness if it's not impacting someone's bottom line or creating standing for a lawsuit.
I’m talking about outside polling places. I think as gun people we don’t understand how nervous guns make non gun people. I think these guys know.
But at least I understand why you say it. Thanks. I happen to disagree. I am concerned we are ceding ground to them. I know that going alone does nothing, sadly. I understand the concern about violence erupting. I personally am equally concerned about letting one faction claim the right alone. I don’t have an easy solution. So i’m
Abortions make some people uncomfortable too. How do we determine which protected rights are tossed aside because people feel uncomfortable?
Damn right. A fascist government is going to be more uncomfortable.
Then maybe having the means to resist said fascism should be a little higher on the list of priorities.
It’s illegal to bring a firearm to any polling place, at all, regardless of where it is.
That is only illegal in 12 states. It’s otherwise legal
if the building allows it. No federal
law about it, only state laws.
Where I grew up it was always in churches.
When I applied for my LTC I was under the impression it was all polling places in general, I suppose it may have been an in Texas situation only. It makes sense for it to be illegal at a polling place though. Nobody needs to be/feel intimated into making a particular vote.
“Makes sense” isn’t always law I’m afraid. I was surprised to learn this many years ago.
Another law to consider is private causes of action for violation of civil rights. Here in Montana we have a statute that allows you to sue someone for intimidation in relation to an exercise of your civil rights. While it might not help on election night it’s an effective way to legally dox bad actors and deplete their resources. This also applies for counter-protesters who use intimidation to discourage demonstrators from exercising their legal rights to free speech or assembly
Technically depends on the state and where the polling place is. The state that don't ban it outright probably don't have an issue with it because a vast majority of polling locations are already a sensitive place according to some other law.
I expect at locations where it's technically legal the cops get called like any other time an "amendment audit" yahoo plays stupid games.
>What most people are talking about with LARPing is at protests which is more optional. I'd also argue protesting is questionable in effectiveness if it's not impacting someone's bottom line or creating standing for a lawsuit.
Agree with this, which is one reason I don't go to protests. That said, my personal concern is with people intimidating people of color, LGBTQ people, members of certain religious groups, and being increasingly bold about it. I have a friend who lives in a diverse area in a small city not far from me who reported an increase in Confederate-flagged pickups rolling through her neighborhood, likely having driven there from a next-door county known for militia activity and where African-American work colleagues reported 15 years ago being unwilling to be caught after dark. That's the kind of thing I'm concerned about being taken to the next level. I hope it doesn't happen, but I have told some of my friends they are welcome in my home if they feel at risk of physical or emotional harm - I'm certainly not going out of my home looking for trouble. At least not at this point.
I am also concerned about these conservative people just outright being violent and starting a brawl. The local police will always side with them without undo pressure.
If they cause enough havoc, it would get the polling place closer down for the day and all those thousands of people will not be able to vote. Which is just what conservatives want.
Something like this is almost guaranteed to happen with Republican strategy being “rigged!”
Yeah, that is a good reason to have the ability to respond to attacks.
In Washington they mail everyone a ballot and booklet automatically every election. Just got mine in the mail. Been like this for years. Don't even have to worry about it.
Used to live there and loved it. Idaho is the 19th century in many ways.
Most conservatives will not start shooting unless shot at, regardless if they agree with all life choices of the other person with a firearm. Conservatives are reasonable. The media makes us (both sides) look crazy.
I agree, yet the general attitude I see is “don’t risk it.” My concern is them feeling increasingly emboldened by lack of opposition. The cops brought them water and food in Kenosha.
I dunno, I feel i’m howling into the void I guess. Closing the barn door too late?
My guess is if the people in Kenosha that were violently rioting and burning the city had instead just held firearms and did nothing illegal then the cops would have brought water and food to all.
GTFO with this copaganda garbage.
Are we just going to stand back and let them intimidate us and those around us? I think we have already let this happen for far too long.
I mean come on. They are doing it to pride parades, womens rights marches and even childrens freaking story times.
If we back down, it only makes them more bold. Its time we stood up and showed them.
We have just as much of a right to be there as they do. We have let them think liberals are snowflakes for far too long.
Unless we are.
I like snowflakes...
snowboarding saved my life (on a spiritual level) and I really appreciate the metaphor of millions/billions of unique entities coming together to form something as picturesque and soothing as a winter's snowfall.
I'm sure I'm a small minority, but that never felt like an insult to me 🤷♂️
Read the room. Not helpful.
On the contrary, the idea that being labeled a "snowflake" should inherently mean that we are unwilling/unable to defend ourselves is a lesson in hubris.
The individuals who would make those judgments are clearly too short sighted to see that they are forcing their fellow humans into a scenario that can ONLY lead to violent self defense, and they do so with the belief that we won't defend ourselves.
Yet here we are, gathering under a snowflake banner in the recesses of the internet with a far greater motivating factor than tyranny: self-preservation.
Two conflicting sides ought not come together with arms.
Each should respectively arm themselves at their own demonstrations in their own defense, but stay tf away from opposing demonstrations armed. Anything different if just looking for spilled blood.
There’s no need to speculate who would get blamed for what, we already know both will blame the other. Happens every time.
To answer the question, the answer is dependent; are there agitators on either side? Regardless of arms, two opposing sides can remain civil absent the presence of agitators instigating chaos.
Well until we split the country like east and west Germany we really can’t stop it.
Is it civil now?
Will it get violent? - I honestly hope not.
But if Moore v Harper gets examined by SCOTUS and they rule that state legislators have sole authority over elections, map drawing, and sending electors to the EC (regardless of what the popular vote is) - it might get violent... again, I honestly hope it doesn't.
But we have been seeing a lot of big-lie believers being put into positions where they can (and may) ignore the voice of the people and claim and election was stolen and send their own electors to the Electoral College and pretty sure both side will meet in the streets
Edit: Moore v Harper will be reviewed by SCOTUS 2022/2023 - they already said they would - you can thank North Carolina General Assembly for that.
Moore v Harper will be a massive deciding factor in the future... or lack there of.. of this country.
I'd argue it's already far more violent than it was only a few years ago.
In 2017 a car driving into a protest was a shocking "new" feature. Now, threats, attempts, and the real thing happen regularly around the country.
Unfortunately most of the people I see running for state seats in Florida (Republican) seem to be running off it.
Are we allowed to talk aboot the Electorial Colege on here? Would actually like to have a conversations aboot that
Does the constitution say states get to do that?
It is a stretch. Read up on Indepent Legislative Theory if you want.
I have no faith in people being civil anymore.
So I'm gonna say no, some shit would definitely end up happening
"We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist."
I'm going out today to buy an *AR 15, to add to my new gun collection, because confederate trumpublicans want a dictatorship and I want a free America.
*update: I got an FN15
As recent as last year I had no intention to ever own guns. Now here I am researching who makes a solid AR-15 under 1k and deciding on a handgun for concealed carry. When the fascists masks come off they will come for me, so I won’t go out without a fight.
As Buttplug said, M&P is good, but so is Aero Precision. A complete upper+lower usually goes less than $1k, and the QC and quality of product is just really good for the price. Get a budget optic like Holosun and a bunch of ammo, and go train. Clock's a tickin
I may have gotten unlucky but my Aero M4E1 lower is out of spec and they have yet to respond to me when I emailed them a week ago asking for advice.
I'm sure the vast majority of their stuff is good but this is my only experience with them and it's not great so far.
Huh, when I had some out of spec handguard retaining nuts, they sent me a replacement right away, no questions asked. Things might be more complicated for a lower receiver, since it's a FFL regulated part. How is it out of spec?
So, my issue is that that if the top round is in the left side of the mag, it will not chamber in - it gets stuck on the feed ramps. Weirdly though if it's on the right side of the mag it goes in fine.
Also, if the top round is on the left side of the mag, it's really hard to slap it into the rifle.
It's easier if the top round is on the right side but it still has some resistance and needs to be slapped in, hard.
I figured it was the feed ramps, so I had my upper sent in to the barrel manufacturer - they reassembled my upper, measured the upper and barrel to make sure they were in spec, then tried it on their BCM lower and everything worked fine. Therefore they said it has to be my lower.
I passed all this info along to Aero. Maybe they're trying to figure out what to say, or they're passing the email through their support people, idk. I just want my rifle working before the apocalypse :(
EDIT: [here's a pic](https://imgur.com/a/a6KREm3)
You might be hitting tolerance stacking/need a bit of hand fitting (lower could be out of spec, but it's not certain). In theory an upper and lower might both be at the far edge of but within spec and the combined tolerances give you issues. Do you have any other uppers you could test with? Might be worth taking it to a gunsmith for a look at the rifle as a whole.
I was thinking it was a tolerance stack issue as well, which would really suck lol. It's my only upper and I don't have any AR owning friends to test it with. I think I'll measure the tolerance of the lower with some digital calpiers as another poster mentioned, and if I'm still perplexed and Aero won't do anything, it's off to the gunsmith.
Is that a jam in the photo? I've never seen a jam like that. I would assume that could only be caused by bad feed ramps, defective magazine, or a mag catch presenting the magazine at the wrong height.
Have you tried other mags?
What caliber are those rounds? They look bigger than 223.
When you say "it's really hard to slap it into the rifle" what do you mean exactly? Are you using the forward assist? The normal AR charging handle doesn't allow you to push forward, only pull back, so I can't imagine how you would slap anything in. You are pulling it all the way back and then releasing, right? It should spring forward on it's own, no slapping required.
I believe you can look up the dimensions for the lower online and confirm whether or not it's in spec with a set of digital calipers.
Yeah, the round gets stuck halfway on the feed ramps. I'm using .223 PMC M193. Weirdly enough, PMC XTAC M855 works fine. I tried the same rounds that didn't work in my rifle in my friend's and they work just fine.
I've tried other mags and they all have the issue - Lancers won't seat at all actually.
>When you say "it's really hard to slap it into the rifle" what do you mean exactly?
I should clarify that I was referring to getting the mag properly seated into the rifle. Once I put the mag in, I have to push hard on the bottom of it to get it to "click" in. I tried messing with the mag catch tightness and that didn't fix anything.
>I believe you can look up the dimensions for the lower online and confirm whether or not it's in spec with a set of digital calipers.
True, I think I'll just have to order a set and do it myself.
>I should clarify that I was referring to getting the mag properly seated into the rifle. Once I put the mag in, I have to push hard on the bottom of it to get it to "click" in.
That is common for me on any 30 round pmag loaded to 30 rounds. Generally I only load them to 28 rounds for that reason. I'm not sure I would point to that as an issue.
>I tried messing with the mag catch tightness and that didn't fix anything.
Yeah, that's not surprising. I believe the difficulty inserting on a closed bolt is because the top round is hitting the bolt carrier group and compressing the magazine spring. The thickness of the magazine catch could affect the height of the magazine, but generally people only have to fiddle with that on PCCs, I've not heard of it being an issue for an actual AR, though I will say I've had lower parts kits that were out of spec before. Did Aero build the lower, or did you?
>That is common for me on any 30 round pmag loaded to 30 rounds. Generally I only load them to 28 rounds for that reason. I'm not sure I would point to that as an issue.
It happens even if there are only a few rounds in the mag.
>Did Aero build the lower, or did you?
I bought the stripped one from Aero and assembled the pieces onto it myself. I'm using a VLTOR MUR upper. I emailed VLTOR too and they think it's either the barrel or lower, and once the barrel manufacturer got their hands on it they said it must be the lower. I'm afraid I may end up in a situation where all 3 manufacturers point their fingers at each other, but a digital caliper as you suggested should put any untrue accusations to rest.
I have the exact same problem. Upper is behaving wildly erratically out of the box, it looks like it's a BCG/charging handle issue, and their customer service has been almost completely MIA. Whatever Aero is going through now with the move and the WA state mag law changes or from something else entirely... Anecdotally seems to be triggering some quality issues right now...
Smith and Wesson M&P15 makes a good one for cheap. However you will spend more than 1k on a good solid setup. Optics, lights (stay away from olight), and sling. And then get something to carry those magazines in.
At this point that gun feels like the gun of choice for mass shooters. I'd rather get an FN. M&P 15 just feels dirty.
Same thing for me. I have always been a pacifist until now. Being pacifist doesn't mean an individual has to be stupid.
Retired green beret here… set back half your budget for ammunition and practice practice practice. $1000 gun that you don’t know how to use is worth much less than a $500 gun that you have plenty of experience with.
Unfortunately, I will never be able to be in the AR camp. My brain seems to never want to let go the fact that on Feb 14, 2018 I sat on my couch as my sister played the Snapchat videos of kids inside Marjory Stoneman Douglas and the sound of that gun going off. I have my handgun and getting ready for conceal (plus as of now florida doesn’t allow carry of rifles)
Edit to clarify- I live 15 miles away from MSD and personally don’t like assault style weapons for civilian use due to that. My sister knew some of the kids who passed away or their families…it’s…a lot
Id suggest looking at an Iwi zion15. Youll likely spend more than $1000 for a complete gun setup worth having. Optic, sling, mags, light?
Depending on what state you live in I would be more worried about the local legislature sending the police after you for owning that weapon well before the fascists come after anyone.
It really doesn’t make sense for the democrats to push gun control. Republicans and libertarians are against gun control so it’s not like gun grabbers have anywhere to go if democrats drop gun control. They could get so many single issue voters on their side if they drop gun control all together. Its not abortion rights activists will vote red just to spite democrats if they stop pushing this stuff. Same goes for advocates of racial justice and people who’s politics are generally left leaning. I say this because this new assault weapon ban is making me want to become a single issue voter. Every time I see a politician advocating for an assault weapons ban I just want them to lose. If the libertarians had a chance to win I would vote for them hands down.
I have been saying this for quite a while. Conservatives are in crazy mode. Do you think this is the time to give up our guns?
The debate does nothing but split our base and is about as effective as "thoughts and prayers". Give it a rest.
The right certainly isn’t law or no law. I almost wonder if democrats want their electorate to be helpless.
> They could get so many single issue voters on their side if they drop gun control all together.
IMO, this is a fucking fantasy. I think there are some voters who would switch parties if Dems dropped gun control but not many at all. I think the far more likely scenarios are that those voters just wouldn't believe Dems or would come up with another reason not to vote Dem. They've been told for decades that Dems are coming for their guns and if the Dems ever drop the issue, they'll start being told, "It's all a trick!" and almost all of them will believe it.
I'd love to be wrong on this but I don't think I am.
It'll take decades for the switch to happen, but I think it would. Takes time to build trust.
>They could get so many single issue voters on their side if they drop gun control all together.
That's true in theory but I'm not sold in practice. The Democratic party is terrible at messaging and would have to escape the label of being anti-gun.
That's including escaping the label with active members who are actively and expressingly anti-gun, all while *trying to reach voters they don't already have* and fighting other sources trying to stick them with that label.
Fox Entertainment Network already has plenty of people convinced Biden is a socialist. How well is that going to work on the party *actively pushing gun control* and has a history of gun control?
The Democratic party has an enthusiasm problem with regards to voters. Right now, the fear mongering with regards to Trump, Abortion, and Guns might energize more votes than anti-guns dissuades.
Why would they shoot anyone? All they have to do now is wait while you're legally stripped of your rights and electoral power.
The fact you need to ask this without wanting to is exactly why every progressive should be armed
Here's my thoughts. Most of the people that I see that are saying they are willing to kill people are not. I have been on both sides of the gun, and I don't see any of them as actually ready. I predict that if something does happen it will be like the one guy in The Terminal List when live fire started happening.
As for if it will stay being a non shooting event, I doubt it. People are stupid. I expect people to make any bad situation worse, and I am rarely dissapointed.
We already know who will be protected and who will be arrested on sight
I'm worried that it's going to all go bad soon, if not 2024 maybe one cycle after that. Unless some impressive leadership steps up. But both parties have built systems that don't promote that and the US political system as a whole does not, either. I can't imagine good people being willing to step into the political arena and actually being able to win.
Good people can't win. Thats a fact. You need to have an innate ability to lie with conviction.
The electoral system is setup to reward and encourage less than altruistically motivated people at upper levels. The "right" people who we NEED in office will never be that cut-throat, dishonest, or egotistically/narcissistically motivated.
Actually yes, because I think the right wingers are too chickenshit to start anything if they have actual fear of retaliation. They have relied on liberals not being armed/prepared to defend themselves.
Conservatives have been pulling to the extreme far-right for decades. Now, they don't even try to hide their fascist/theocratic ideals. They have been telling us what they want to do, and it is not some idealized civil war between states. What they are pumping themselves up to do is a Rwanda. They are not joking. Believe them and plan accordingly.
Kind of hard to do when democrats keep trying to disarm the majority of voters in the states that they reside.
> Kind of hard to do when democrats keep trying to disarm the majority of voters in the states that they reside.
Sorry, what legislation is out there that's going to completely disarm the populace of any state? Even in the most restrictive states you can still buy a wide variety of firearms, even if their functionality is limited compared to other states, to defend yourself. There's enough legislation out there that's problematic enough that we don't also have to resort to hyperbole to make it sound worse.
Spot on. I’ve been telling people since 2020 that if anything was going to happen here, it would mirror something between Rwanda and the Troubles. Neighbors against neighbors.
Why specifically Rwanda? Is there something key to the atrocities there that would compare to the potential here? I'm comparing our future more to The Troubles, personally.
A single radio host is pretty much the major source for violence, as far as people point, in Rwanda if you compare him to Tucker on fox news there is an insane amount of overlap.
There really aren't any clean battle lines. You can't just say red state / blue state when the real divide is often metro / rural. The reds won't control the metro areas even in (some) red states. That destroys any serious logistics. Result? It's gotta be a grassroots battle plan. That means Rwanda.
Democrats need to rethink this idea of voting a gun-free utopia into law... Maybe time to get armed yourself, just in case.
I’m hearing a lot of conservatives saying how holy the are that blue states are disarming their people. They know it will make them helpless, but hey let’s keep arguing about pronouns…
What I meant is that it won't be like the Civil War where warring states send militias to fight each other on some battlefield. It will be like Rwanda, when a wave of violence sweeps the nation and reich-wing Xtian zealots start butchering their friends, neighbors, and family members they consider "lib commies."
It really is just a matter of time until the next civil war. One side is trying to disarm their states and the other is trying hard to arm their electorate.
Any sort of armed fight will get blamed on us, immediately.
They should've just let us shoot them, they escalated it!
I believe there were some similar sentiments expressed to friends in Minneapolis a couple of years back.
That comment sounds like antifa
I wonder why.....
Well the Deacons of Defense, Black Panther’s, Rednecks of Revolt, etc. did it.
Tempers run high when it come to politics, and angry people with guns is not a good mix, but if you genuinely feel threatened at a political event then preserving your life and expressing yourself should be the touchstone.
If you want to do it just to intimidate, one up, or threaten the other side then you’ve already lost the morale high ground.
No, which is why I don’t go larping in public with my firearms like the other side does. If they want to get uncivil in my front yard, I’ll stack as many as I can before they reach my front door. The National Guard should have been handling these fuckwits years ago…but didn’t. So now they shine up their rifles and go march around the state capitol, all because the big bad government decided to be tolerant. Add to that the Bundy fiasco….law enforcement did nothing and those assholes had rifles pointed at LEO's. It boggles my mind why those assholes aren’t in a cemetery somewhere.
We have a military and a National Guard..it’s their job to put down any rebellion. It’s my job to try and put it down only when it arrives on my doorstep.
I think if these assholes actually start shooting, it will get handled. There will be a loss of life, but they will lose. I’m not overly concerned.
LEO doesn't do their jobs. The conservatives intimidation is completely unchecked. We cant just let them bully their way into doing whatever they want or it will just get worse.
Ok. But open carrying at protests isn’t going to solve that problem. By doing so, you’re allowing idiots to draw you into their idiocy. No responsible firearms owner takes a weapon…especially openly….to a protest or a hot temper situation. It’s stupid and flat out irresponsible. If you want to stand up for the US constitution, then join the military. That’s supposed to be their job. If you want to kill yourself for absolutely no reason, then take your rifle to a protest and stick around when shit goes bad. This isn’t 1776, and even then if it wasn’t for the Continental Army, the militias would have been destroyed (though also vice versa).
The halfwits dressing their fat asses up are not operators. They are just halfwits dressing up. They can go play in the woods, and “train” but at the end of the day they will cut and run when push comes to shove. Maybe they’ll blow up a building…but that’s not something you or I can defend against anyhow. If they open fire at a protest, they will be cut to pieces and vilified if they survive. If you shoot back, you get vilified. Let them look like the fools that they are. It’s not the righteous thing to do, but it’s the right and smart thing to do. It burns my blood to watch it and it pisses me off to no end. If it were up to me, I’d have absolutely had the National Guard tear the absolute fuck out of the January 6th crowd….but that’s why it’s not up to me. You don’t beat morons by responding like they expect you to. You beat them by being smarter than them…fortunately that’s not hard to do. It might take longer, but you will end with a complete win.
If anyone thinks any branch is going to allow civilians to shoot at each other at a protest without stepping in, they are nuts. If you knowingly put yourself into a situation where civilians start shooting at each other, you’re a fool. Shooting back at a protest is not in anyone's best interest. Go to protest. Show up with a gun, and most assume you’re there to cause a problem.
The situation that most people are thinking about is an insurgency….that’s not going to happen without a complete collapse of the government. And if that happens, I’m sure as hell not sticking around to see who wins.
My firearms are for my enjoyment and to protect myself and those closest to me. Not a for a political statement. No one will ever see them in public unless I intend to use them for defense.
Boy, you'd think, but remember that guy who was shooting an AK-47 at police officers outside his house a couple years ago? Brought in alive.
I can understand plain ol everyday racism being the reason that unarmed black people get killed and armed white people get brought in alive, but when armed white people _who are shooting at cops_ get brought in alive, holy shit. I don't even understand what level of mental gymnastics allows that to happen while unarmed black folks are still getting killed by the dozens.
Damn. Is there a video of that?
In theory, police *should* be attempting to bring actual criminals in alive, as long as innocent civilians aren’t endangered by their efforts.
Yeah, I want to be clear, I don't have a problem with cops not shooting people. I have a problem with cops disproportionately not shooting white people who are armed or shooting at them while at the same time, cops are disproportionately shooting unarmed people of color.
I'm having a hard time finding the article right now, because there are a lot of other articles about white guys shooting at cops with AK47s. Found one where a guy was killed, another where he was brought in alive, but was shot by police after shooting at them. That one was during a road stop though, and the one I remember I thought he was barricaded in his home.
If I find it, I'll let you know.
For sure, I can’t see how we let people enforce the law when they treat people running from them as deadly threats
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Military and guard will try and stay out as long as possible as they're afraid of massive mutiny. Civil wars don't leave anything unsplit.
Conservatives just blocked a bill that would've kicked out nazi/kkk supporters in the military
Would we block a bill that kicks out tankies? I mean what is to stop each side from creating a military entirely made up of politics purists like straight up brown shirts? It sounds nice but it also sounds like a way to create a political purity test to have control of a military.
Seriously? Who do you think joins the army/NG? Put your faith in them at your (and everyone you love’s) peril.
A lot of normal people with a percentage of assholes. Military will do what it’s told. And if they don’t, you’re fucked anyhow armed or not.
LEOs and the guard are complicit.
> The National Guard should have been handling these fuckwits years ago…but didn’t.
Huh... it's like you never see them both in the same place. Wonder why that is?
Haha fair point. Not all of them are bad though, not even most. All the NG folks I know are normal middle of the road people though.
They are largely college students trying to get free tuition. They arent fighters.
Well yeah law enforcement did nothing at the Bundt ranch. You don’t Exactly start a fight with a crowd of people who have rifles pointed at you unless you are suicidal. Bring in a position of power doesn’t matter much if you are dead.
My polling place is located in a school so not the best idea to show up armed. Guns have no place at the polls imo.
Mine’s at City Hall…you have to go through security to get there anyways. Although, very weirdly for the primaries, it was completely unattended.
If you are serious about wanting to show that those left of center will not be intimidated, then organize large groups to go and stand between the armed idiots and the people just wanting to vote, or protest, or whatever. Some groups already do this, not allowing those who can't really defend themselves well from being scared off by showing they will not allow it. There is rarely any violence, rarely any real confrontation. You don't have to let yourself be beaten or be used for target practice to make this work, either. Just large numbers forming human walls are generally good enough. Hell, if you really are worried, you can even wear soft body armor under other clothes, not making a fuss or a show. Trust me that most of these cosplay idiots really don't know what to do when their black clothes, plate carriers and whatever weapons they have don't scare people. Remember that they're just little boys who think they're tough because they play dress up.
The best thing leftists can do right now is to get armed, find the others, make sure you can all trust each other, start training and forming your own militias. I don't know if confronting the right at protests is the best idea, although I do get emotional when I see these thugs and my instinct is to stand up to them.
Yesterday a local brewery set up a block party on the street with music and food trucks. A very obvious gang of right wingers rolled up, at least 15 of them. You easily could tell who the leader was as he was the center of conversation, and was the "best dressed" if that makes any sense. He actually looked like Enrique from the PB. Most of them had the same trucker style baseball hat on, I was too far away to see what it said but it looked kind of cheap like they were making their own. The two biggest dudes were not talking to anyone but instead were just scanning all of us the entire time, pulling security. I caught them looking at me several times.
I feel like the left is going to be a minority in terms of numbers since the militant right has been growing for decades. It's also similar to the economic phenomenon called adverse selection, which occurs with flood insurance and payday loans. With flood insurance, the people who need it the most are all going to file claims at once in the event of a major flood, this would bankrupt the insurance company and is the reason why flood insurance has to be nationalized. With payday loans, the people who need the loans the most are also the least likely to be able to pay them back, which raises the risk to the lender, who then has to charge more interest, which makes it harder to pay back.
Right wingers are more likely to be violent and be good at it, because they're identity is so tied up with strength, masculinity, testosterone, toughness. Whereas the left tend to not be these things. This is what really bothers me, that I might end up alone trying to fight off my entire neighborhood.
In addition to leftists needing to train up physically, I think we also need to find other avenues of attack / resistance. Like disrupting the right-winger's lifestyle in ways other than direct physical confrontation.
I was raised in rural bumfuck nowhere and worked oilfield construction for 15 years. Those fucktards don't intimidate me. If my experience is any indication most of them are dumber than a bag of hammers and just as brave. I've got your back.
If liberals loudly threatened to show up armed if conservatives did, it would seem like this would give law enforcement plenty of reasons to ban weapons from protests / public events. Which I personally think is a good thing for reasons OP alludes to.
Note, few gun owners are gonna risk felony conviction for obvious reasons.
Except the Supreme Court has stated that there must be a text and history example to justify gun laws. Even MLK was guarded by people openly carrying arms. Tossing out a constitutionally enumerated right to bear arms because people might misuse it is like saying we can protests because they can turn violent. This whole standard of tossing out rights because someone is uncomfortable or because they might be misused effectively means we are consenting to not having legally protected rights all together because there will always be an argument for safety.
I think the *overwhelming* vast majority of encounters where both sides have an armed presence will stay peaceful. Anyone who participates in a riot openly armed will face an absolute shitstorm of legal consequences thanks, among other laws, to our draconian anti-terrorism laws.
But there might be 1 or 2 such events that turn into a bloodbath since everyone will think they're acting in self-defense and nobody knows who actually shot first.
I feel like if you’re willing to show up to polling booths heavily armed you’re not willing to talk it out
I'm gonna get shot rolling into a constitutional carry event with a bernie sanders shirt and black lives matter hat. Even with my obscure as fuck semi auto magazine fed 30-06 model 742.
What is this? Germany in the 1930s? You may as well bring brass knuckles. Our vote will get stolen by those who think their vote got stolen by those who voted because they didn't vote.
Stay safe all. 2024 seems like it will be terrifying.
If liberals started showing up armed (peacefully of course, just as a show of our second amendment rights just as they do at theirs) they'd run away screaming and instantly start calling us the greatest threat to America. They would unironically put pictures of us up next to the SS and say that we're the evil bolsheviks trying to use our force to intimidate voters...or something.
That's why it's probably more important for us to follow the word of Eddard Stark "I don't fight in tournaments because when I fight a man for real...I don't want him to know what I can do."
The major place perhaps liberals should show up armed is at Pride Events and other social-justice events as a vigilant symbol that we are present to protect our brothers and sisters. It would certainly make instigators piling into the back of a UHaul think twice about disrupting our peaceful events.
Except groups like NFAC did exactly that and even went to a klan rally location in Georgia openly calling for a fight and nobody said any of those things.
I suppose it depends on how many people and where, but you're essentially asking if there's the potential for violence if two groups who hate each other show up at the same place packing firearms.
Realistically, we have field observation that there's the potential for violence even if only one of those groups shows up armed.
Mob mentality would absolutely be a factor. The greater the the group the more aggressive and violent they will act.
It is illegal in MD to be armed and be within 1,000 feet of a demonstration.
There are a few conservative friends of mine who unfortunately are beginning to feel less and less like friends, and just acquaintances, in that their level of aggression towards my POV only seems to be increasing each week. So yeah…I’m thinking things aren’t going to be very civil in the years to come.
I think a lot of people here have violent fantasies and they're asking for permission to indulge them.
Contraceptives and gay marriage are next. When that happens, I’ll be in the streets (even more so than now). So no OP, no I don’t think I will. They want their goddamned fight, they can have it.
You should be in the street now…before they ban gay marriage and contraception. But I digress.
I really thought women would rage after Roe…but they aren’t. Not on a massive scale. I kept waiting for a big protest but it never materialized. I was ready to go. Makes me wonder how much of a fight we have left in us.
I wish I could say yes, but right wingers only support the 2A if it applies exclusively to other right wingers
Anyone showing up to a polling place or politically rally armed in 2022 or 2024, regardless of political affiliation, is, in my mind, begging to be part of a live fire exercise.
I agree and it just makes you look like an asshole that is trying to intimate.
Well they geverally show up in crowds armed so I’m not sure what the answer is. Shooting at an armed crowd is going to turn out poorly.
Probably. As long as the people with guns aren't screaming at each other
Still worried about civility???
No. Its going to blow up at some point, and then the Conservatives will pretend to be shocked and outraged that such a thing could happen, and they've got their rallying cry.
Everything is ratcheting up, bit by bit.
But this is going to happen anyway, guns or no.
IMO this question underlines the idea that if arming up ends up being the right response to current politics then we are all losing.
No. The conservatives will definitely get mad and start yelling. Depending on their mental health best case scenario is them just yelling.
No better way to find out than trying it out! LOL
Friendly impromptu match at a logal range?
No. All it takes is a bad mix of someone having a bad day, too much to drink, or something to prove, ect. People are smart, the mob is not.
"NOT GOING TO ADVERTISE" seems to be the safest option. Take heed.
I think we need to shut down all social media for a month before and after every national election
Of course there will be violence around the time of the elections, initiated by conservative provocateurs so they can claim the process illegitimate which they are 100% going to do anyway, but the violence will make their bogus claims seem valid.
This is what I have been suggesting for awhile.
If they're going to show up armed, we should show up armed.
Except that growing up in poverty and then my stint in the Army never taught me to fight fair. So we should also have people with hunting rifles on tripods with overwatch on the roofs nearby, and Quick Reaction Forces mounted in civilian vehicles patrolling.
This isn't a situation that is going to get any better. So we may as well lean into it. Ask the Black Panthers.
I will shout this from every hilltop: DO NOT OPEN CARRY!
We (liberals) are not militia or paramilitary. We are not deputized and do not enforce laws. Use your CCW where legal if you think there will be a dangerous situation.
The protest sign is mightier than the rifle and is far more civil than those AR-toting Elmer Fudds.
I am a liberal. My polling place is a school here in VA. Those right wing fucks hang on the street into the school. I walk right through them. I will not be intimidated. I'm a little white woman. They always think I'm on their side until my finger shows them that This is the way. No words have to be spoken. I have called the voting board. Heard nothing.
I honestly dont believe people should open carry at protests. You shouldnt be open carrying at all really unless you have imminent plans to shoot someone/something. In some states open carrying during protests is outright illegal
Maybe everyone should just stop showing up to places armed for the sake of showing up to places armed.
I don't think it would even come to that in the first place because mainstream liberals are too chicken shit to actually fight for what they believe in when push comes to shove. Its always the same, they either back down, or consume themselves.
While I agree that liberals/democrats are generally hesitant to play hardball, I do think we may be reaching a point where any additional incursions on democracy or human rights may be a bridge too far, and more will realize they have to fight to save the US.
I also think some of the people who have been propagandized into supporting far-right policies have a very rude awakening coming when they start to realize what they have wrought. The overturning of Roe v Wade and resulting activation of abortion bans have [restricted women's health care options](https://apnews.com/article/abortion-science-health-medication-lupus-e4042947e4cc0c45e38837d394199033) in ways a lot of them never anticipated - and they or people they care about will be impacted.
And climate change is having real effects on real people. I'm finding that more and more deniers are finally starting to acknowledge the bleak reality.
I also think that a lot of the right-wing prepper "patriots" who can hardly wait to slaughter liberals in the streets and long for "marshall" law and/or civil war will turn tail pretty quickly if it ever comes to pass. They don't have the faintest fucking clue what it would really be like to live (or die) through that.
Maybe I'm overly optimistic, or just plain naive. I do know that I'm getting pretty close to the limit of what I'm willing to accept from them.
The part that I keep coming back to is the "liberals" in this country are still extremely conservative. When Republicans leapfrogged democrats in the 1960s to push even further Right it's not as if the Democrats changed much. Most are still Center-Right.
I feel like things are slowly starting to change with a few true Progressives, but it's slow work. Still a lot of old white men on the "left". The general populace seems to be way more progressive than elected officials but things like the electoral college, gerrymandering and needing to be a billionaire to run for office help keep people out of office who truly represent us.
I hate to be pessimistic but for me it's not a question of if it will get violent but rather just how escalated it will get.
>The part that I keep coming back to is the "liberals" in this country are still extremely conservative.
Modern progressives are so far to the left, that many traditionally liberal left stance appear center or center right. People who think that most liberals are conservative are usually very far left. I think the concept is referred to the "overton window." The same is true for the right with alt-right and Trumpian candidates. While these progressives are definitely more radical, they also have proven to be more willing to take to the streets as proven during the violent protests of the last few years. They are a minority for sure, but they are a loud one.
That's fair. Also those words get tossed around without much thought. But what the Trumpers scream as socialism like social Healthcare, free college, guaranteed income etc are put in place and supported by the "Conservative" parties in places like Canada and the UK.
Compared to the rest of the "Western" world, the USA is all right of center. Some of us are right on that line, pushing to Center left, but heavy weighted to the right. And that may refer more to the elected officials than the whole populace.
My liberal friends own way more firearms and are way more willing to fight than my conservative friends.
Sorry buddy you’ve been drinking the koolaid that your side likes to pedal out claiming the other side is weak. It’s simply not true I personally know dozens of former Marines, sailors and army dogs that are all flamingly liberal and would be very willing to stand up for their rights. Have seen them first hand at protests against police brutality.
The only thing I’ve ever seen my conservative friends do is bitch and whine on Facebook. Other than that they are pretty tame.
Just the terrorist proud boys we would have to worry about.
We should wear bracelets that say LIBstrong :)
I wouldn't expect to see liberals on the street for anything other than virtue-signaling. Even the ones (i know) who see the authoritarian writing on the wall still refuse to arm up and train, even some of my LGBTQ+ friends who i genuinely worry about here in the south.
Absolutely not. If nothing else, it would just be a wet dream for someone wanting to incite chaos. Even without someone like that, the situation would be too heated from the get-go and all it would take is one bad call in the heat of the moment to send the whole thing to shit.
An armed society is a polite society
This is the same reason you can’t bring a gun in a polling place
Can’t bring one into a school either. How is the working out?
Well if what happened in Portland is to go by probably not a good idea. To be fair it was proud boys threatening violence and people showed up with guns to stop them as the police refused to stop it.
My usual MO is to just ask questions.
"Why do you think that regulation exists? Could it have to do with someone getting hurt or killed?"
An anecdote I heard was about this guy who wanted a pond on his property, so he dammed up the stream that ran through it to keep all the water for his pond. Of course this didn't bode well for people that used to be downstream, so they took him to court.
Another good example is lead paint, leaded fuel, lead anything. We regulate the hell out of stuff to keep lead out of our bodies because it's absolutely awful.
Most of our current regulatory state in the US is due to people being hurt or killed by something. If you can narrow down some conservatives claims to a specific safety issue in the past you win.... Until you start indulging their claims of "whataboutism." If they do that, your simplest recourse is to just counter them with "What about" something else.
Two opposed groups in the same space in a heated situation with weapons rarely ends up civilly. Too much can go wrong or too much can happen that might spark some kind of exchange. It’s a recipe for disaster
What concerns me is if you’ve got people on both sides cocked and locked, all it’s gonna take is for some moron to light one firecracker and the whole thing is liable to go to shit very quickly.
I witnessed this a summer ago with protests over a confederate statue that folks wanted removed. One side kept brandishing and being warned but not arrested by the good ol sheriff deputies.
Doubtful. The rhetoric on both sides with prevent peace from sustaining
Two open carrying political movements meeting in the middle of the streets during a heated election cycle is a recipe for DISASTER
If you're talking purely liberal and conservative then no problem. I don't think either side cares to get stupid.
Now if you mean the far-left, far-right nut jobs from the media? Probably gonna be a bloodbath. 😑
You can usually CC in polling places can’t you? Even if you can’t, concealed means concealed.
My polling location is an elementary school.
Ahhh. Well concealed means concealed. All jokes aside no in this scenario Id rather some concealed carriers than those clowns that show up OCing ARs.
I mean it’s pretty clear that most American schools are not screening for weapons at this point.
It depends on the state. In Some states it’s illegally to have it in polls or on the grounds around it.
I sort of doubt it. All it takes is one person to do something stupid and going off of Charlottesville, which seems like an eternity ago, my money is on one of them doing something stupid.
If you have kit, and wear it to a political event you should be prepared to kill and die. That's the reality of having kit on in public. Kill nazis and their sympathizers and die by cop? Dont go out to be a hero. Vote with a ballot, or with plates on and mags loaded. One doesn't get results and the other you'll die doing.
This has already been happening in my town for a couple of years. People do get shot. So far none fatally 🤞🏼
I lived in an conservative area of California and i wish i could say yes.
The resentment is super high.
Few of the people i knew left for other states but the ones that can’t leave are getting angrier.
As long as someone like Ray Epps doesn't show up, yes it will be civil even if everyone is holding a rifle.
Maybe I don’t place enough value on my life but I never understood what having a gun outside a polling location means to achieve…you don’t know who I vote for. And if I tell you I voted for the candidate you didn’t want, what’re you gonna do…kill me?
No coexisting with fascists.
I think we believe in different things. That gap is too large on those issues.
Lmao at this question. Oh, talk about begging for problems.
I don't think overall it would/could stay civil - seeing that many Conservative acquaintances of mine are fairly surprised to know that I own a firearm, and even more so when they learn I have many.
Firearms are seen as part of the Conservative "culture" and Liberals owning them come across as an encroachment on their culture.
Well, ask yourself this. Can things stay civil if only conservative gun owners start showing up? It’s probably going to be ugly no matter how you cut it.
I don't think so. If people are already getting into physical altercations and not just yelling, someone less undisciplined, are more emotional due to whatever else they're dealing with, etc etc I just think there will be a % chance. Even if its .0001% out of every interaction, with enough armed interactions its bound to happen.
Honestly I don't think being armed will keep more people civil, if that is what you're asking. I just reread your question and had a different take on what you're asking. I had thought maybe you were asking if people might use their guns if they have them when a group of protestors and anti-protestors are fighting.
Personally I'm conflicted at whether or not to be armed if I'm protesting and I know the protestor/anti-protestors would be armed. I'd rather not be in that kind of situation, especially if I'm unlikely to change anyone's minds, imho.
Around me in Idaho, yeah, easily. No concerns at all.