I have the KS7, the single-tube version of Kel-Tecs bullpuped shotgun, and that thing is effective as hell, and I suppose practical.
I can fully shoulder it, and turn around in my hallway.
It fires high-fps 00buck 2 n 3/4 inch defensive shells, and birdshot minishells equally well. (but because the firearm is relatively lightweight, those 00 buck defensive rounds fucking hurt my hand, haha, *too much kick*)
Edit: I chose the KS7 over the KSG from user reports generally saying that the KS7 tends to be more reliable pumping shells, and that the tube-switching mechanism on the KSG can be finicky. And weight.
[Mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/liberalgunowners/comments/119czov/been_wanting_one_for_ages_trifecta_complete/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I had the same experience with my ksg. There’s a design flaw with a little lip that the pump goes over for the last cm of backward motion. It sometimes gets caught on this and that’s the part of the action that drops the fork down to catch the next shell and load it. This causes it to fumble the next shell. KS7 features an improved design in this specific area that makes it more reliable.
Ah! That makes sense. I'd heard about the need to *really* rack it, because of the back action not being reliable, and that explains it.
I certainly haven't had that issue with my ks7.
Love my KS7 for the exact same reasons. Lightweight, extremely short while retaining an actual stock and a magazine tube the size of any full-length "tactical" shotgun. It'll seem awkward at first, but that'll disappear once you adjust to loading it.
Far be it from me to have an informed opinion about it, I'm hardly an engineer.
But it's funny, it's such a well balanced weapon, holding, shouldering, firing it, feels like an extention of my body.
But as soon as you try to load it, that all goes away.
I only got it a couple of weeks ago, only 2 times to play with it so far. But it didn't feel like there was a good place to grip it and load it. Suddenly felt awkward.
I have the KSG, the other reports about the issues are correct. It’s still a really badass gun, but every now and then it doesn’t load the next shell.
I would absolutely get a KS7 knowing what I know now. the bullpup design is amazing and it does eat everything really nicely. The ergos are really good.
Pump means you can also get mini-shells!
I own a KSG. I'd love to own a DP12, but...money.
It's... I mean, it works just as good as any other shotgun I own. Just more picky 'bout ammo, more uncomfortable to hold and shoot, didn't come with sights or a foregrip, and the selector lever is too short to switch easily.
So yeah. Gimmicky, but that doesn't mean it's not effective.
There is a reason almost no large organizations has outfitted with shotguns in several decades. Shotguns aren't the best tactical weapons. They don't even have a role with a specialist in a unit. Even 12ga breeching guns are being replaced by underbarrel attachments.
There is really only one "tactical scenario" where a shotgun makes much sense. It isn't one I am giving advice for in this forum though.
Leave the shotguns to clays and feathers.
Racking the shotgun is 100% Fudd non-sense and dramatic effect in movies. First, why are you waiting to chamber a round? Second, do you think racking a slide or charging an AR is going to have any less effect?
Also, why are you using a pump gun if you are using a shotgun? In the field pump guns have one of the highest failure rates of any gun I have been around. Between generally short shucking and specifically outrunning the 870 mechanism the guns are not anywhere close to as reliable as claimed. And I say this from watching sports shooters using target loads who shoot thousands of rounds a year in a relatively low stress situation. And I have still seen failures fairly regularly. No one is going to do more tactical training than that or use the shotgun in better circumstances.
I spent a lot of time as the gunner of the last car in coloumns in Afghanistan and I can absolutely confirm racking a pump action is an order of magnitude better at communicating intent than any other action related to preparing a weapon.
Look man I’m sure you’re right about everything. That’s fine.
Calling everyone you disagree with FUDD isn’t helpful.
Now then: Charging an AR is very quiet compared to racking a shotgun. Nothing stops you from rackout out a live round.
Some of us prefer not to have a round chambered to reduce accidents since our home defense gun is also a range and hunting gun.
Buckshot delivers multiple rounds on target. Semi-auto shotguns jam too, especially if they aren’t a Benelli.
The claims you make are canonical gun shop counter Fudd mythology.
My Benelli runs longer without maintenance than my Mossberg 930 or my 11-87, but both were quite reliable through multiple boxes of cheap dirty target shells.
Mechanically, pumps are reliable. In use they have a massive rate of user error. Like almost anything, one can "train past it" and reduce errors, but resources are limited and choosing a simpler system with less to train around is almost always better. Like I said, I have seen sport shooters short shuck their guns in low stress situations with tens of thousands of rounds through their guns.
Landing a load of buckshot is certainly devastating. I think it is federal 00 buck shot that is basically a Skorpion's mag of 32ACP dropped into a fist size area. Even if that is low on an appendage the person will be in a world of hurt.
When the right 556 hits inside ten yards the bullets shred on top of the temporally and permanent cavitation due to the high velocity round. And you get thirty of those in an AR. With another thirty a quick mag change away.
A shotgun will work. It can be done super cheap. If someone is spending KSG type money on a dedicated system there are much better choices.
I will agree that if a person is going for a one gun solution on a strict budget the Maverick 88 is a lot better choice in that scenario than "I have ten guns and this is my HD rig with a Supernova" or "I am going to spend 4 digits on a dedicated tactical HD shotgun" scenarios.
The quality of cheap 9mm pistols keeps climbing while the cost adjusted for inflation keeps falling. I'd def say there are a couple worth considering.
The trade-offs definitely get to where I think it is a much more even argument. My main argument against is that a tactical shotgun basically becomes tactically obsolete if someone buys more guns later.
The other scenario is the "I want one gun for everything, and I don't want to CCW" scenario. Shotgun can pretty much do everything, even if a lot of it poorly or inefficiently. That is really where the Fudd mythology comes from. 75 years ago, when gun prices adjusted for inflation we're actually quite high, a lot of people just had one shotgun because it could do everything. Compared to contemporary competitors it also performed relatively favorably.
Tactically, this makes little sense.
You're either carrying the weapon in an unprepared state, or you're wasting a round. And you're hoping that, in an adrenaline fueled state, you remember to do this and do it right. And that you have time to do it. Do you carry your pistol with no round in the chamber, hoping you'll have time to rack the slide?
It's also hoping that an armed intruder isn't willing to engage, if they even hear and recognize the sound. Maybe they leave. Maybe they freeze. Maybe they charge. Maybe they start blasting rounds throughout your house. Predicting the behavior of individuals is an exercise in futility. Especially the behavior of a person willing to engage in risky actions, potentially on mind altering substances.
Better to just yell out "I'm here and armed!" If the worst still happens, at least you're in a prepared state and have that extra round.
> Tactically, this makes little sense.
>
> You're either carrying the weapon in an unprepared state, or you're wasting a round. And you're hoping that, in an adrenaline fueled state, you remember to do this and do it right. And that you have time to do it. Do you carry your pistol with no round in the chamber, hoping you'll have time to rack the slide?
Completely different situation with the pistol. If I'm drawing my carry gun, it's because I believe my life is in imminent danger. My carry gun's trigger is also completely covered by its holster until I'm ready to fire, and it's drop safe. That's not true for a shotgun, hopefully including the imminent danger unless you left all your doors unlocked and are standing right beside the gun when you notice someone's in your home.
Note that I'm not necessarily arguing for the "slide rack as deterrent", just that storing loaded shotguns unlocked/empty chamber has some good reasons behind it. Search "cruiser ready" for more discussion on the topic.
There are many anecdotes (reports) of it working (really). Many folks like myself keep a shotgun loaded but unchambered so you’d have to rack it to make it usable.
That can and has been enough to make intruders flee. If not then you’re ready to go. Most encounters with guns are not reported. A good situation is your gun is not fired at a person while you stayed safe
Yea I do! And as with all things involving self-defense many things are simultaneously true.
For many people a Mossberg Maverick is the cheapest reliable firearm they could buy for self defense. It has the added advantage of sounding like a shotgun as you chamber a round if you store it without a round chambered.
I have the KS7, the single-tube version of Kel-Tecs bullpuped shotgun, and that thing is effective as hell, and I suppose practical. I can fully shoulder it, and turn around in my hallway. It fires high-fps 00buck 2 n 3/4 inch defensive shells, and birdshot minishells equally well. (but because the firearm is relatively lightweight, those 00 buck defensive rounds fucking hurt my hand, haha, *too much kick*) Edit: I chose the KS7 over the KSG from user reports generally saying that the KS7 tends to be more reliable pumping shells, and that the tube-switching mechanism on the KSG can be finicky. And weight. [Mine](https://www.reddit.com/r/liberalgunowners/comments/119czov/been_wanting_one_for_ages_trifecta_complete/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
I had the same experience with my ksg. There’s a design flaw with a little lip that the pump goes over for the last cm of backward motion. It sometimes gets caught on this and that’s the part of the action that drops the fork down to catch the next shell and load it. This causes it to fumble the next shell. KS7 features an improved design in this specific area that makes it more reliable.
Ah TIL why I kept short shucking my friends KSG.
Ah! That makes sense. I'd heard about the need to *really* rack it, because of the back action not being reliable, and that explains it. I certainly haven't had that issue with my ks7.
And once you practice racking it hard enough, it’s never an issue again.
Love my KS7 for the exact same reasons. Lightweight, extremely short while retaining an actual stock and a magazine tube the size of any full-length "tactical" shotgun. It'll seem awkward at first, but that'll disappear once you adjust to loading it.
Far be it from me to have an informed opinion about it, I'm hardly an engineer. But it's funny, it's such a well balanced weapon, holding, shouldering, firing it, feels like an extention of my body. But as soon as you try to load it, that all goes away. I only got it a couple of weeks ago, only 2 times to play with it so far. But it didn't feel like there was a good place to grip it and load it. Suddenly felt awkward.
Ks7 more reliable
I have the KSG, the other reports about the issues are correct. It’s still a really badass gun, but every now and then it doesn’t load the next shell. I would absolutely get a KS7 knowing what I know now. the bullpup design is amazing and it does eat everything really nicely. The ergos are really good. Pump means you can also get mini-shells!
My problem with both of these is the lack of an adjustable stock.
Thats really not a feature of most bullpups..When there is something..its more of an Extendable stock due to minimum OAL requirements.
I own a KSG. I'd love to own a DP12, but...money. It's... I mean, it works just as good as any other shotgun I own. Just more picky 'bout ammo, more uncomfortable to hold and shoot, didn't come with sights or a foregrip, and the selector lever is too short to switch easily. So yeah. Gimmicky, but that doesn't mean it's not effective.
There is a reason almost no large organizations has outfitted with shotguns in several decades. Shotguns aren't the best tactical weapons. They don't even have a role with a specialist in a unit. Even 12ga breeching guns are being replaced by underbarrel attachments. There is really only one "tactical scenario" where a shotgun makes much sense. It isn't one I am giving advice for in this forum though. Leave the shotguns to clays and feathers.
Home defense shotgun still makes tons of sense even if a pistol is probably superior. Racking a shotgun can be a deterrent in some scenarios
Racking the shotgun is 100% Fudd non-sense and dramatic effect in movies. First, why are you waiting to chamber a round? Second, do you think racking a slide or charging an AR is going to have any less effect? Also, why are you using a pump gun if you are using a shotgun? In the field pump guns have one of the highest failure rates of any gun I have been around. Between generally short shucking and specifically outrunning the 870 mechanism the guns are not anywhere close to as reliable as claimed. And I say this from watching sports shooters using target loads who shoot thousands of rounds a year in a relatively low stress situation. And I have still seen failures fairly regularly. No one is going to do more tactical training than that or use the shotgun in better circumstances.
I spent a lot of time as the gunner of the last car in coloumns in Afghanistan and I can absolutely confirm racking a pump action is an order of magnitude better at communicating intent than any other action related to preparing a weapon.
Look man I’m sure you’re right about everything. That’s fine. Calling everyone you disagree with FUDD isn’t helpful. Now then: Charging an AR is very quiet compared to racking a shotgun. Nothing stops you from rackout out a live round. Some of us prefer not to have a round chambered to reduce accidents since our home defense gun is also a range and hunting gun. Buckshot delivers multiple rounds on target. Semi-auto shotguns jam too, especially if they aren’t a Benelli.
The claims you make are canonical gun shop counter Fudd mythology. My Benelli runs longer without maintenance than my Mossberg 930 or my 11-87, but both were quite reliable through multiple boxes of cheap dirty target shells.
Hey my pump is also reliable! I was responding to a claim they weren’t.
Mechanically, pumps are reliable. In use they have a massive rate of user error. Like almost anything, one can "train past it" and reduce errors, but resources are limited and choosing a simpler system with less to train around is almost always better. Like I said, I have seen sport shooters short shuck their guns in low stress situations with tens of thousands of rounds through their guns. Landing a load of buckshot is certainly devastating. I think it is federal 00 buck shot that is basically a Skorpion's mag of 32ACP dropped into a fist size area. Even if that is low on an appendage the person will be in a world of hurt. When the right 556 hits inside ten yards the bullets shred on top of the temporally and permanent cavitation due to the high velocity round. And you get thirty of those in an AR. With another thirty a quick mag change away. A shotgun will work. It can be done super cheap. If someone is spending KSG type money on a dedicated system there are much better choices.
Could we agree that for a lot of folks a Maverick 88 is probably the cheapest reliable self defense weapon they could get?
I will agree that if a person is going for a one gun solution on a strict budget the Maverick 88 is a lot better choice in that scenario than "I have ten guns and this is my HD rig with a Supernova" or "I am going to spend 4 digits on a dedicated tactical HD shotgun" scenarios. The quality of cheap 9mm pistols keeps climbing while the cost adjusted for inflation keeps falling. I'd def say there are a couple worth considering. The trade-offs definitely get to where I think it is a much more even argument. My main argument against is that a tactical shotgun basically becomes tactically obsolete if someone buys more guns later. The other scenario is the "I want one gun for everything, and I don't want to CCW" scenario. Shotgun can pretty much do everything, even if a lot of it poorly or inefficiently. That is really where the Fudd mythology comes from. 75 years ago, when gun prices adjusted for inflation we're actually quite high, a lot of people just had one shotgun because it could do everything. Compared to contemporary competitors it also performed relatively favorably.
It also alerts an intruder to your exact location.
Yes that’s the point. I’m here and armed.
Tactically, this makes little sense. You're either carrying the weapon in an unprepared state, or you're wasting a round. And you're hoping that, in an adrenaline fueled state, you remember to do this and do it right. And that you have time to do it. Do you carry your pistol with no round in the chamber, hoping you'll have time to rack the slide? It's also hoping that an armed intruder isn't willing to engage, if they even hear and recognize the sound. Maybe they leave. Maybe they freeze. Maybe they charge. Maybe they start blasting rounds throughout your house. Predicting the behavior of individuals is an exercise in futility. Especially the behavior of a person willing to engage in risky actions, potentially on mind altering substances. Better to just yell out "I'm here and armed!" If the worst still happens, at least you're in a prepared state and have that extra round.
> Tactically, this makes little sense. > > You're either carrying the weapon in an unprepared state, or you're wasting a round. And you're hoping that, in an adrenaline fueled state, you remember to do this and do it right. And that you have time to do it. Do you carry your pistol with no round in the chamber, hoping you'll have time to rack the slide? Completely different situation with the pistol. If I'm drawing my carry gun, it's because I believe my life is in imminent danger. My carry gun's trigger is also completely covered by its holster until I'm ready to fire, and it's drop safe. That's not true for a shotgun, hopefully including the imminent danger unless you left all your doors unlocked and are standing right beside the gun when you notice someone's in your home. Note that I'm not necessarily arguing for the "slide rack as deterrent", just that storing loaded shotguns unlocked/empty chamber has some good reasons behind it. Search "cruiser ready" for more discussion on the topic.
More like, I'm here. Shoot thru this door or wall.
End this fallacy. There are no reports of people racking a shotgun and scaring people away.
There are many anecdotes (reports) of it working (really). Many folks like myself keep a shotgun loaded but unchambered so you’d have to rack it to make it usable. That can and has been enough to make intruders flee. If not then you’re ready to go. Most encounters with guns are not reported. A good situation is your gun is not fired at a person while you stayed safe
Anecdotes? Really? Then I have read many anecdotes to the contrary. See how that works?
Yea I do! And as with all things involving self-defense many things are simultaneously true. For many people a Mossberg Maverick is the cheapest reliable firearm they could buy for self defense. It has the added advantage of sounding like a shotgun as you chamber a round if you store it without a round chambered.
Racking a shotgun being a deterrent doesnt help when you short stroke it
Absolutely, and like any weapon you keep for potential defensive use, practice with it extensively.
It's true that you really have to mean it when you rack a shell.
Yesterday's gimmick = today's fad = tomorrow's [dogma](https://i.redd.it/ni1pw14nv4qa1.jpg). Tomorrow's junk pile remains to be determined. https://images.google.com \[wacky failed guns\]