T O P

This needs to be said. Again.

This needs to be said. Again.

AligatorTears

Thank you for posting this. I've spent the last day having stupid conversations with swingers who write "no bisexual men, we're not into THAT" on their profiles because they equate bisexual men with disrespecting boundaries. This sub is just refreshing every time I come here. I just feel like I can chill here. Does that make sense?


VeronicaLD50

That makes perfect sense! As a trans woman I deal with similar scenarios quite often. Bi folk are often labeled as “too gay to be straight” while also being “too straight to be gay” It can really make a person feel invisible. I see you and empathize with you.


YoGayDaddy

> “to gay to be straight” Another reason why I hate the phrase "bi now gay later" with all my might


AJ_the_Kitten

For me, it was bi now, pansexual later


butchecology

What do you mean?


AJ_the_Kitten

I thought I was bi and asexual, as it turns out, I'm pansexual.


ProfRavenclaw

Genuine question. What is the difference between pansexual and bisexual under the definition provided by OP? Trying to figure out which label best suits me.


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butchecology

I think you misunderstand the point - isn’t it that bi now x later is a bad thing for multiple reasons? Also, for you, what is the difference between bi and pan


cellularcollection

So wouldn't you now be bisexual AND pansexual now? No disrespect ment, I'm just curious why you don't identify with the bi apart anymore.


AligatorTears

I'm actually okay with being invisible. Being villainized for being bi is a new one for me though.


iamsodonewithpeople

Yeah... we’re not gay, we’re not straight... we’re bi Saying we’re not gay enough or not straight enough is just hateful and biphobic The hate between sexualities is ridiculous, like pans and Bis... We experience the same issues as pan people (Pan is under the bi umbrella) and face the same shit from other sexualities Honestly people just need to grow up and realize that people are attracted to who they are and they can identify how they like... it’s not hurting you People need to LEAVE PEOPLE BE! It’s not hard... if you don’t judge someone for being gay why judge them for identifying as pan or bi... it’s just stupid Yes everyone who is pan, omni, etc is Bi (Pan is under the umbrella of bi) but not all Bis are pan (literally the square rectangle stuff) I’m just sick of people being a holes to each other because of the way they identify... We’re all human, we’re all different, get over it. Yours truly, A pissed off Bi


txteachertrans

They write "no bisexual men" because they are homophobic, likely equating gay male sex as inherently less safe.


AligatorTears

Sadly, it is marginally more complex than that. A lot of people (myself included) have experiences where they've met up with a couple for a hetero partner swap and been pressured to just try same sex play. It happens to women a lot more than men but men seem a lot less capable of moving on from it because they aren't used to being treated the way women are treated. There is a degree of homophobia involved but the problem is that you have people who don't understand GLBT+ language trying to communicate that they aren't interested in being pressured into same sex contact and feeling like they are being attacked for being straight when people point out that using identity language to describe an activity preference is problematic. Overall the swinger community is pretty accepting of various kinks and sexual preferences and doesn't really have the stigma around gay male sex that a lot of groups have. It's just this one issue which happens to put bisexuals in a difficult position where just turning invisible means you can meet more people, but also means that the predatory bisexual guys harass more straight guys because they know there are bisexuals hiding in the community. The kink community is a lot more integrated so these predators get exposed and banned pretty quickly from kink spaces but the nature of swinging doesn't really have a vetting culture so the predators are going to continue to cause problems and it is going to take a lot of uncomfortable conversations for some people to grasp the concept of some bisexuals being perfectly happy to have completely heterosexual encounters with straight couples. Sigh. Double the opportunities right?


Heloswing

As a Pan- member of the swinger community in Texas, I can say from experience that non-hetero male acceptance is still regionally impacted. I’ve heard the full spectrum of excuses for homophobia, but it’s mostly just men being uncomfortable because of societal influence and unwillingness to be vulnerable with a conversation.


AligatorTears

I've been quite surprised by how judgmental some members of the swinger community can be of anything outside of the one non-standard thing they like to do. You'd think there'd be integrations between swingers, poly, kink and GLBT+ communities but the swingers seem pretty happy for the most part to hold onto all their prejudices and stick to their own bubble if they don't have specific interests outside of it. Not that there aren't open minded folk in every community, but the swingers seem to be the odd one out in terms of tendencies toward progressiveness.


gixxerbaby

Best comment I've read yet.


maddpsyintyst

Fuck the hypocrites, for they know not what they are not...um, fucking. Actually, many of the men in those couples look like orcs, anyway, so maybe I'm the one who's "not into THAT"? 👺🍌 ✋😒


RoadRageCongaLine

I hate to be *that gal*, but it wasn't always this way (at least in practice). 20 years ago other bi people gave me a lot of shit for being open to dating transfolk, and the Gay & Lesbian community was extremely transphobic & biphobic in parts of the US. I was "taught" some things in the Gay & Lesbian and Bi communities that would not be acceptable in today's LGBTQIA+ community. I was excluded (and treated like crap) by the Trans community because they didn't believe that non-binary or gender fluid was a thing, and to this day I have difficulty accepting that part of me because of the outright hate I experienced from them. I still use exclusively female pronouns because *I'm fucking scared* of my own damn people rejecting me *again.* Don't get me wrong, I'm fucking grateful that things have changed. I just think it's important that we don't erase our own mistakes from our history.


Aiooty

The way I see it, bigotry knows no sexuality or gender. Some people are so sad, they feel the need to exclude others to feel better about themselves.


Ronisoni14

So that's why a lot of (but definitely not all) older gay people and lesbians are pretty transphobic :( Ty for the explanation tho, I hope you won't have to be scared for the rest of your life. You are valid af


Amberhawke6242

Yeah a good portion of the older crowd was really into "respectability politics", and a big part of normalizing gay and lesbian people were the "we're just like you and not like those people dressing all flamboyant" or whatnot.


lumberjack_ok

This is why I haven't come out as agender to my gay father. He made a comment about bathrooms a few years ago. It kind of seemed like he didn't understand, but also felt a bit transphobic.


clear-aesthetic

There have always been bisexuals who defined bisexuality this way. The Bisexual Manifesto was published *30 years ago* and bisexuals were correcting biphobic assumptions about bisexual attraction even then. > Bisexuality is a whole, fluid identity. **Do not assume that bisexuality is binary or duogamous in nature: that we have "two" sides or that we must be involved simultaneously with both genders to be fulfilled human beings. In fact, don’t assume that there are only two genders.** Do not mistake our fluidity for confusion, irresponsibility, or an inability to commit. Do not equate promiscuity, infidelity, or unsafe sexual behavior with bisexuality. Those are human traits that cross all sexual orientations. Nothing should be assumed about anyone’s sexuality, including your own. (Emphasis mine.)


Persephone_18

I love you , stay safe, be yourself, nor can tell you otherwise


iAmOriginal_

Bisexuality is an umbrella term. And yes, pansexuality is almost the same as bisexuality and you don't have to be pansexual to like all the genders, you can be a bisexual. But as I see it, pansexuality is about how you are blind to genders, you can fall in love with anybody and it's just the same. It's not about "only we like all the genders" or some shit like that, you just don't see genders and they don't matter to you. I, personally, am not pansexual because I see difference in dating men, women and nonbinary people. Yes, I like them all, no I am not a pansexual but that doesn't mean pansexuality doesn't exist. And also, because pansexuality is an umbrella term, you are bisexual when you are pansexual. Just pansexuality feels better and suits you more because it's about blindness to genders, nothing more


henryrollinsneck

I identify as pan, but can still see a difference between men and women. With women I generally do a lot more deep, emotional talking and exploring our feelings, men are typically(but not always) less likely to want to talk about their emotions for 4 hrs straight and that's OK. It's something I personally can take or leave. I don't think realizing that there are differences suddenly makes me not pan. I can fall for anyone and their gender/sex/etc. doesn't mean shit to me, but it doesn't require that I be completely blind to there being differences. I just want people reading to know that if you identify as pan, don't feel bad or change your identity just because you notice relationships can be complicated and different depending on the person you're with.


Ronisoni14

We should really normalize men talking about their emotions


henryrollinsneck

I agree. I grew up with my moms side of the family thinking that men are the strong silent type that don't talk about feelings, and my dads side (despite being callused, bearded, manly man farmers) thinking that sharing your feelings isn't just acceptable, but a necessity. I really hope we get to see widespread acceptance of that attitude in our lifetime.


iAmOriginal_

Oh I definitely didn't mean that dating a man or a woman is the same thing, sorry if it sounded like that. I think "blind to gender" means that it doesn't matter to you what gender you date. Like yes, the relationship is different but that depends on the personality of the person you date. But still, when you start dating somebody, their gender is not an important factor or their importance is really low. Also please if something is off with how it is for you as an pansexual, please tell me. As I said earlier, I am not an pansexual so I just like kinda guess how it really is from what I read online. And also, I agree with you, if there is something that doesn't respond with how you feel and you are an pansexual, it doesn't mean that you are not a pansexual. Pansexuality is just a label and it's really up to you how you'll label yourself. You know yourself the best


tessthismess

While I don't *want* to argue semantics. "Pan" doesn't mean "blind to gender" to me. People can still have gender and it can still be a relevant quality to them. Gender is so baked into society for most individuals it's difficult to not consider it a quality of someone. I generally say I'm pan over saying I'm bi simply because I want to make it absolutely clear that I'm inclusive of people of any gender. Which isn't to say bi people can't be inclusive, but restricting myself to saying I'm bi results in needing explanations like yours and OP's meme. I'm not doubting that someone who exclusively uses the term bi can be just as, if not more, inclusive than a given pan person. But I'm also not a fan of this staunch "I'm in this camp, and choose to stick to this terminology; I also get to decide what your terminology means." Totally fine if you are inclusive of all genders and use the term "bi." Literally no issues there. But "pan" doesn't mean blind to gender to at least some pan people, and I'd argue most. The oxford definition works perfectly well for me: " not limited in sexual choice with regard to biological sex, gender, or gender identity." (I do use bi when explaining myself to like my parents and such since when I'm explaining being trans I don't want to get stuck in the semantic weeds w.r.t. sexuality).


trustywren

This was me, until I got sick of the never-ending bi vs. pan slapfights and just started identifying as queer


ChaoticCryptographer

Exactly this. I use queer because I don't want to be associated with either at this point because of the fighting. Honestly, I think we need clearer terms.


Lestalto

This is exactly my thought process, you explained it spectacularly.


[deleted]

I just go by bi most of the time just because it’s an umbrella term that most people understand. Pansexuality is hard to explain to most people.


tessthismess

Yeah, I do that as well but sort of tailor it to who I'm talking to. People my age or younger I typically say pan, people a generation above me I typically say bi.


Swade211

Being blind to genders sounds just as silly as being blind to race. Gender and race are actual things that exists, each with unique issues. Being "blind" is just willful ignorance


ThatOneDragonKid

though i do agree that they got the definition of pan slightly wrong, that’s not what being genderblind means. they mean in terms of attraction - aka equally attracted to all genders, or that gender doesn’t play a factor in their attraction. again, that isn’t what pan means, but gender blind (in terms of attraction) and race blind are not the same concepts.


iAmOriginal_

If someone is blind to gender it doesn't mean they don't care about genders. It means they don't care if the person they date is an man, woman, nonbinary or intersex. That doesn't mean they think that the whole "gender concept" is wrong or they ignore it, it just means a gender is unimportant (or almost unimportant) factor if they want to date anybody. But they respect (I hope) the person's gender and they think it's valid. If they don't do that, they are idiots, not pansexuals. Hope this makes sense


Coarse-n-irritating

I was looking for this comment


Lord-Fishquaad

Pansexuality isnt gender blind, its just being attracted to all genders. You can be pan and have a preference.


Chrysanthemum96

It also means some amount of blindness to gender but that’s only if it were referring to me, that doesn’t mean it’s how everyone has to define it. To some people it could mean the same thing as bisexual and that’s ok.


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Chrysanthemum96

You replied to me twice. I used go on gross subs like that to call out those incel’s bullshit. You can click the little red tag to see what I actually said you know. I think the donald and a couple other ones also show up.


PapillonPando

I know it’s kinda out of the discourse but, actually October once upon a time WAS the eighth month, but the calendar changed order and now is the tenth


ThatsIt_ImOutOfHere

I was going to comment it’s kind of a crappy comparison with October aha


Jhk76

Not really. The post literally said ''definition changes''. That's exactly what happened with bisexuality.


ThatsIt_ImOutOfHere

I mean maybe for some they feel the definition has changed, but I take things fairly literal in that bisexual still means an attraction to both men and women, i.e two sexualities, usually heterosexual and/or homosexual. All that said, it’s just my opinion so doesn’t really matter haha comparing how October and bisexual have changed in meaning just didn’t feel right to me. October literally has no meaning anymore - it’s just a name.


VeronicaLD50

Please see the ACTUAL definition of bisexual. It is all inclusive. You do know what “all inclusive means” right?


ThatsIt_ImOutOfHere

This is from merriam Webster - : of, relating to, or characterized by sexual or romantic attraction to people of one's same sex and of the opposite sex And from the Collins dictionary - Someone who is bisexual is sexually attracted to both men and women. As far as I’m concerned Pansexual is the all inclusive sexuality. But at the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter. Identify as what you want to - as long as it feels right to you, that’s what is important :)


VeronicaLD50

These are definitions written by straight people who are not members of the community. They are invalid definitions. Please see the second panel for the actual definition of bisexual as per the bisexual community.


sevenissix

Exactly. The Ides of March were the Roman's New Year's Eve, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, sorry for being an ackhually kinda gal OP, your post is trully appreciatied - and important


Rice_Bullets

THANK YOU. I had a full on fight about this today. God damnit.


AbsurdlyEloquent

I think it’s kinda ridiculous to say that “bi means two” was “thrust upon us” by straight people. The lgbt community has only been the *l*g*bt* community for a few years, and it’s had some incredibly biphobic and transphobic views. It still does in some places, and I think we should take responsibility for that instead of “oh it’s the straights fault”


thepinkbunnyboy

Honestly, this and the comments in this thread is one of the main reasons I just identify as queer.


weareppltoo

Ikr! Like people are being like wELL pErSOnaLlY i ThINk bI mEaNs oNLy tWo


catmall

Even if you want to stick with bi meaning two it’s ok to include multiple genders. For me, it means I’m attracted to those who are the same gender as me and who aren’t the same gender as me. There, it’s two


Chocolate-Rose

Also, no one should be forced into a sexuality they don’t feel right. For example, I know I’m pan, I know it’s the right one for me, and that would make me also bi, but if someone asked I’d always say I’m pan. I just can’t look myself in the mirror and think “I’m just bi”, it feels so wrong. And yet people sometimes say I’m actually bi and I should stop “being a special snowflake” or “stop being biphobic”. It’s just as bad as someone telling a bi person that they should just use “pan” to define themselves or telling a straight trans person they don’t belong in the community, or telling a cishet man who likes to wear makeup that he’s gay or trans, or telling a more masculine presenting cishet girl that she’s lesbian or trans. Also, no one can know you more than yourself. They shouldn’t decide for you what you are, you can do that yourself. You can ask for advice or information when you don’t know something, but it’s your decision what to do with it, what to do with yourself, and no one has the right to take it away.


Cmndr_Duke

~~pan has the superior flag tho~~


Chocolate-Rose

wym?


Cmndr_Duke

the colours are prettier!


Chocolate-Rose

Ah! Ye, I think that too, they’re pretty- In fact, I felt very good today and wanted to dress in a way that would make me happy and my clothes have the colour of the pan flag-


iamsodonewithpeople

People can use whatever they want and identify as I relate to pan and I relate to bi I just kinda say eh I get both


Chocolate-Rose

That’s valid! u3u


lasthopel

I'm trans and bi iv never gotten why people thing bi people are transphobic, it's the dumbest thing ever


Silverback__Guerilla

Iirc correctly the October thing is because *someone* had to have their own month


dandy-lou

One reason I prefer the term queer, most people agree there isn't a universally accepted definition for pan or bi. There's a lot of overlap, so I'm never sure what fits better. That being said, I of course support whichever label a person chooses.


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dandy-lou

what?


Chrysanthemum96

Just some asshole thinking that you’ve commented on that sub a few times makes you a person who uses that sub


dandy-lou

What a weird thing to comment on someone's post randomly.


Persephone_18

The October thing fucking bothers me so much


Aelin-Feyre

Well, October WAS the eighth month. It was just too much effort to change all the names when they tagged on months at the beginning of the year. Otherwise, yes!!


red-the-blue

Bruh I was skimming through these and read "Aromatic bisexual"


henryrollinsneck

Make sure not to burn your bisexuals, just saute them to a nice golden brown.


red-the-blue

Yum!


MattsyKun

And I just read "Atomic bisexual" Right, time to get up, take my meds... Need to wake up a bit.


red-the-blue

Little Bi, Dropped on Hiroshima 1945


octopoddle

Debbie Harry.


EvanTheBlank

Dumb straight guy here! If bisexuality includes 2 or more genders, what’s the difference between bisexuality and pansexuality?


vorellaraek

In general pan is "definitely all" and bi is "at least two," and people pick the connotations they feel more comfortable with when there's an overlap. It's really hard to maintain an exact neat taxonomy that applies to all cases with something as personal as identity.


TBellum

These two things are broadly similar but some people care about the difference and that's okay. Both labels are often warped a little by who is using them - historically speaking, someone calling themselves bisexual wasn't being trans-exclusionary but calling someone else bisexual might be done to call them trans-exclusionary, for example. That's really as nuanced as you can get without invalidating some people's use of the term for themselves. Generally speaking, pan is explicitly inclusive of all identities and doesn't express an attraction difference between any of them, IE they are no more attracted to nonbinary people then they are genderfluid folk. Bi, on the other hand, tends to be people who latched on to an older (but not outdated) label who aren't as concerned about being explicitly inclusive of all identities. I've never met a bi person who expresses an attraction difference between men and women, or whatever, or someone who wasn't inclusive of all identities in their bisexuality, but I'm sure there exists a bi person who is attracted only to, say, women and nonbinary folk but not genderfluid people. In my opinion, the best way to go about it is to let people use the labels they want and only police people policing other people's labels, if you're in a position where your opinion will be heard. The Pan/Bi discourse has been around for a while and shows no signs of slowing down.


Lord-Fishquaad

Pansexual is attraction to all genders and bi is 2 or more. Btw, pansexuals arent genderblind and can have a preference despite what you may hear


[deleted]

So like, bisexuals are attracted to the all the genders, except some, and pansexual doesn’t make any exceptions?


Jhk76

The label bisexual doesn't make any indication of preference or number of gender. So it can be 2 or it can be all without exceptions. It just depends on the person


Alavaster

Someone has already partially covered it and others are giving you answers that sound clean but just know that everyone uses these terms differently. In some cases people use them 100% interchangeably. While others on either side say there is a difference, but don't agree on what the difference is. Edit: The fact that there are arguments and discussions all over these comments is proof that there is no real consensus.


[deleted]

In pansexuality, gender doesn't play a role, whereas a bisexual might have a preference (also don't call yourself dumb, you're doing amazing just by trying to be informed).


MoeGhostAo

To add to the myriad of people, it’s kinda like the whole “square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not necessarily a square” logic. Bi is two or more, pan is explicitly all. The overlap comes with how Bi doesn’t intrinsically *exclude* all, but it doesn’t intrinsically *include* all either. To be pedantic, you can look at it this way: Bi includes Pan, but Pan does not inherently include Bi.


justyourlocalperson

Hey thanks for the chart at the end, it was really helpful!


VeronicaLD50

Welkies


EdenTheKitten

This was so weird to me while figuring things out. Cuz I figured out I am into fellow trans and enby folks. So I was lowkey obsessing with trying to figure out the difference between the two so I could be sure I was referring to myself as the right one just to find out there's hardly any functional difference. Just different interpretations.


[deleted]

We're also not inherently cheaters. Yes I like pretty much everyone, but if I'm in a committed monogamous relationship, I'm gonna stay faithful.


MangoWorking3057

So many people are debating bi v. pan again. I think it's fair to say that for some people, they use bi and mean trans and nonbinary folks as well. But I've seen a lot of transphobic shit from "bisexuals" over the year, ones that adopt the bi label as meaning there's only two sexes, or they are only attracted to people who are biologically male or female (while invalidating other gender identities). For that very reason I identify as pan, because no one in the pan community disputes gender identity like they do in the bi community. Just my two cents of being openly pan the last eighteen years.


Lord-Fishquaad

I really wanna clear up misconceptions. Stop saying pansexual is gender blind. Pansexuality is being attracted to all genders, and you CAN have a preference and gender CAN play a role in attraction of you do have a preference.


NightmareVX

Then what's the difference between bi and pan?


[deleted]

thats typically called omnisexual


Hei8en

Excuse me what bisexual does not like non binaries


SmallTestAcount

Cowards


ThatOneDragonKid

bisexual does include attraction to nonbinary people though. there may be people who fall under the definition of bi and aren’t attracted to nonbinary people and that’s fine, but someone who is attracted to nonbinary people also falls under the definition of bi.


weareppltoo

well then I, a bisexual non-binary person attracted to non-binary people, will just go and fuck myself then. Happy?


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StarBurningCold

If you simply have a preference for people who present cis male or cis female that's fine, nothing to feel guilty about. The danger comes if you start forcing people away who you would otherwise be attracted to JUST because they're trans or non-binary. Like if you're into a guy and he's into you, and then you find out he's a trans man and suddenly everything is off the table, that might be worth examining and maybe challenging a bit. But if it's a purely aesthetic thing, then yeah, I think that's just as fine as any other sexual preference.


Amberhawke6242

But how do you know if someone isn't cis?


mslillianlennon

My take on the matter is that yes, terms change, however, as much as we would like the term “bisexual” to change from its first conceivable definition of being attracted to male and female, the general culture around it has not changed and will not change anytime soon. Hardly one bisexual I know describes bisexuality as being attracted to more than two genders, but simply being attracted to either men or women. I am trans and pan and I personally like the idea of moving past bisexuality and towards pansexuality due to its inclusivity and my deep belief that we need to burn the binary. If I am wrong, I’d love to be told that so and why. Thanks Queer community! ❤️


Brick7809

Hey!! What's the difference between Bi and Omni? I'm trying figure out my sexuality, so I'd like all the help I can get.


Katia_123

Omg that meme needed to be done! How did you guys get your flag beside your username?? Haha


VeronicaLD50

Three dots in the upper right corner of the sub. Click change user flair. It should be pretty clear once you get there. =)


gotcha6908

Always nice to learn more so that we can all be better and more inclusive people 😊


BonzaM8

Ayooo OP is panphobic. Edit: to whoever is downvoting me, look at the fucking comments. OP literally said that pansexuality is biphobic and transphobic while clearly not knowing what pansexuality actually is.


Chrysanthemum96

Yeah op made a panphobic reply


BonzaM8

It’s a shame too, because I thought the post itself was actually informative.


Chrysanthemum96

It really is. You don’t have to be panphobic to be bisexual and vise versa. You can just accept how everyone wants to identify and let them use the terms they feel fit best. This was a very good post but op ruined it by being a little bit of an ignorant jerk.


BonzaM8

A-fucking-men


FAT-PUSSY-LIKE-SANTA

All they said is that some people view pansexuality as biphobic due to the idea (that sexuality pushes) of bisexuality not being inclusive of trans people. And like, they're right. Some people think that.


BonzaM8

That’s not all they said. They said explicitly that pansexuality is transphobic and biphobic.


FAT-PUSSY-LIKE-SANTA

They said, and I quote, "*I’m not saying that pan people are transphobes, just misinformed*." And again: they're right. I've seen far more people say that they identify as pansexual due to it being "inclusive" of trans identities rather than because of the sexuality being limitless in the gendered attraction.


henryrollinsneck

I'm not "misinformed" solely because I'm pan, asshole. Lumping us all together is pretty shitty whether you want to acknowledge it or not.


RisenRealm

Gonna hop in here with a book worth of a response but I feel it might clarify where some people are coming from. No one is saying all pansexuals or even most think this way, just some. And I can confirm this from person experience as of literally right now. I've always called myself bi, until about 2 year ago when I was in the dating game. I met someone non binary and when I told them i was bi they assumed that meant I wasn't interested in them. I explained I was and they said "oh so your pan." A talk followed and many google searches later i changed my identifier to pandemi. But the "pan" part never quite felt right. I didn't like it personally. I had nothing against anyone who used it but I just simply preferred bi. But I stuck with pan because I THOUGHT thats technically what fit me. Fast forward to only a month ago and I learned that although many sites still label bi as only two genders, the community for the most part uses it for two or more. So I switched back. I WAS misinformed. I identified as pan because I felt it was the only thing that described me but I recently learned that its not. I'm not saying everyone who's pan is like this or even most pan are, just that some, like myself tend to get lost among the constantly evolving identities. For example from what I understand at this moment bi means two or more, this COULD mean only 3 or all or just 2 or whatever. Pan however specifically means all. I could be wrong about this and by all means do correct me, but there's a lot of confusion and misinformation or outdated definitions still out there. So to say that SOME folks who prefer or are bi, but identify as pan because they misunderstand the terminology isn't that far fetched. Its not exclusive to the pan and bi communities, it happens everywhere. Side effect of spectrums is that there's no exact spot you may fit into and its not "panphobic" or "biphobic" to PERSONALLY dislike one term for yourself over another even if one by definition fits better.


FAT-PUSSY-LIKE-SANTA

Did I say all? Did I ever say I was speaking on all pansexual people? No. You seem rather heated, so maybe just calm down considering it really just is not that serious


ThatOneDragonKid

that’s... not the majority of pan people. not by a long stretch. that’s a small subsection of misinformed people. saying that all pan people are using a transphobic term when a) that’s not why the term was created and b) that’s never been how the vast majority of pan people see that word is panphobic


emileet-xo

that’s the one thing i don’t get with us bi people, why are we so apprehensive of a new term that seeks to remove ambiguity. pan people kind of do have a point, bisexuality can be exclusionary of trans/nb people, and some people aren’t comfortable with the idea of identifying as such. yes a bi person can include trans/nb people, i know i do but it’s the fact another bi person can choose not to. if an individual is bi, and they’re offended by the existence of pan sexuality because it’s definition is similar to how they identify, they shouldn’t be as they probably came to terms with their identity before the popularisation of pansexuality where identifying as bi was the closest they could get to describing themselves and right now aren’t comfortable with moving to another term then that’s perfectly valid. however if they’re offended by pansexuality because of wokescolds calling bi people transphobic when they’re clearly not, then ignore them they’re being deliberately obtuse. furthermore easy recognition of terms enables us to establish boundaries so we don’t sexually/romantically pursue an individual who would not be interested.


awareness-first

This helped legitimize my own sexuality so thank you. I am still semi-closeted as I am a poly amorous person who is married and bi, but struggled to understand why I had a connection romantically with men but not so much with women. I thought maybe I didn’t qualify as bisexual. This post was really a great thing to read given my dilemma.


HidnFox

WHY DID YOU BRING UP OCTOBER BEING THE TENTH I FUCKING HATE OCTOBER BEING THE TENTH GODDAMN YOU JULIUS AND AUGUSTUS, YOU MOTHER FUCKERS WHY CAN'T MY CALENDAR BE NORMAL AND MAKE SENSE AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA


VeronicaLD50

r/aaaaaaaaa Also, thanks for the laugh, I needs that.


nervousheartfestival

I'm pansexual. I'm attracted to men, women, and non-binary people. I'm not "blind" to gender. I'm not going to use "bisexual".


AligatorTears

Use whatever term you like. I'm attracted to men, women, and non-binary people and I've been using the term "bisexual" since 2001. Before that I identified as "the fuck is gender I'm drunk and horney if you're into me then I'm into you lets get nekkid!"


bisexual-plant

Well that’s the point of there being multiple terms to describe similar things. Even if you don’t agree with how others define it, the term still feels right to you. Personally, the term pansexual never felt right to me. It didn’t fit with who I am, and so I identify with bisexuality. If you want to identify as pansexual, there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just don’t judge anyone who identifies as bi.


nervousheartfestival

I don't judge people for that, I just find it a weird use of language and I don't like this "if you're not using pan to mean "genderblind" you're biphobic" meme. Why imply "2" at all? Even "2 or more"?


SHsuperCM

While that is good reasoning, I think that the name was just adopted by bi folk who wanted to be more inclusive.. If it(bisexual) were a new word, I'd agree with you 100% and I'd most likely identify as pan as well. But now I just say bi because I'm more comfortable with the term. I also always took the purple in the flag as "and everyone in-between" so I'd say that I relate to the bi flag colors more than the bisexual word if that makes sense.


bisexual-plant

I think the “2” stems from the fact that “bi” does mean two, so because of all the biphobic people claiming bi people are transphobic, bi people then have to fight that it means 2 or more. I’ve never seen a meme that using pan for not genderblind is biphobic but I’m sorry that that’s a thing. I don’t understand the arguments between terms. Like why can’t others just let people identify how they want, it’s as simple as that! If only...


Chrysanthemum96

Honestly for myself I’ve considered using pan since I’ve realized I don’t think about gender much in a romantic relationship and to me with my personal identity pan means genderblind. Though I would never push that definition on others, it’s just what it would mean if it referred to me.


RoyalHummingbird

I'm not trying to apply this to you, everyone picks their own labels, but I recently learned of omnisexuality which is basically pansexuality but instead of being described as gender blind, its an active attraction to all genders individually. I used to identify as pan but never vibed with the whole gender-blind thing because while I view the concept of gender very differently as a genderfluid enby, I decidedly understand the distinction between identities and am attracted to them in different ways (not just sexual vs romantic). I'm not 100% sure I'm going to make the switch but thought you might find this interesting.


TotallyWonderWoman

I identify as bi rather than pan because I was attracted to all genders, but not gender blind, and then I read a definition of omnisexual on r/bisexual and was like, "wait, that's me." Because omni isn't a really widely recognized term, I still use by and then specify omni in bi/queer spaces.


blinkingsandbeepings

Same for me. I don't like the "gender-blind" phrasing because a) using "blind" that way seems kind of ableist and b) I'm \*aware\* of gender, I'm not pretending gender doesn't exist or affect the ways we relate to each other. It just isn't a criterion for me when choosing a partner.


wollemuschel

But then what's the difference to pansexual?


ADearestLonesomeHill

I often see people asking the difference between the two labels, so I usually just copypaste this thing, which, is worth saying, is just my humble opinion, so take it with a grain of salt. Feel free to make it yours, add your opinions and reword it as you please. First, I'd really love to clarify that any debate on the usage of either word, which one is better or more "inclusive" is stupid, pointless and only divisive. In practice they kinda mean "the same thing", as two people who identify one as pan and the other as bi may literally be attracted to the same people. The difference is a matter of how people perceive their own attraction. Most of the times, while exploring your identity something like this happens: you're questioning your orientation, read the definitions of bi and pan somewhere, and then says, "I'm more like this", "this one sounds better", "I'm not 100% like this but I like it anyway so I could just embrace it". It's mainly a matter of "adopting the label you deem to fit the most"; orientation is a fluid concept anyway, and these labels can't fully describe it, they're just words, flags, communities, to make people feel comfortable, represented and understood. Bi can be used as an umbrella term to describe any individual whose attraction is oriented towards a wider range than simply "male" or "female", which also includes pansexuality, so in a sense pansexuality is a specific way to be bi, but the answer to whether a pan person is also bi is, only if they choose to incorporate that term to describe themselves, like with bi people sometimes using terms like gay or queer; the difference between the two words doesn't really matter, as much as it's up to the individual person to find which one they feel to describe their feelings in a better way. But if we really want to find a distinction between the two, the most noteworthy I can think of is this "liking multiple genders" v "liking people regardless of gender" thing. In practice, I'd suggest (mind you, that's just my personal opinion) that bi implies "I'm attracted to you for a number a reasons, but most importantly I'm attracted to how those reasons interlace with your gender identity and/or expression", while pan implies "I'm attracted to you for a number of reasons, among which gender identity and/or expression may play a role as well, but if you identified as something else, or presented differently, I'd be attracted to you anyway". I wouldn't say that being pan implies you cant have "preferences"; a pan person may "prefer" girls, but could also "prefer" people good at cooking, people who listen to Norwegian Death Metal or people with hazel eyes. From how I see it, for bi people its more like "gender is a box, and I like you because of how you decorate that box with your own appearance, personality and character, and because of how said box enhances those qualities", while for pan people its just "gender is just one of the many traits that define your appearance, personality and character". Also, on a side note, and this is where I actually get kinda political: I'd totally be down for a redefinition of all those terms under an umbrella term of "poly" as opposed to "mono", where polysexuality means attraction to more than one gender, bisexuality is a subtype of polysexuality which includes _at least_ male- and female-oriented identities (not necessarily excluding strictly non-binary identities) and pan is defined as above. It kinda means that the B in LGBT would become a P probably but honestly whatever.


infectiousloser

I got the shit kicked out of me the entire time I was in school for being bi-sexual. I stood behind it, it was part of who I was. In my mind I EARNED the label for all the crap I took. That's why even now, when I mention that I can feel attraction towards anyone, regardless of gender, I still say I'm bisexual. Everyone around me says "no, you are pan" So maybe I DO fall under the pan umbrella, but I bled to stand up as a bisexual in the south. I earned it. It's a title I wear with pride.


ADearestLonesomeHill

While I gave an explanation of what the practical difference between these two labels is, I also said in the very first part of it that choosing to identify as one or the other is mostly a matter of feeling comfortable with these terms. I also said that a pansexual person may freely identify as bi, if they feel that term to be part of who they are too. I don't want to tell no single individual whether they're bi or pan, just tell what the general distinction between the two definitions is. I'm sorry if it sounded like it, you're totally valid whatever label you choose to use, although I also want to tell you that you wouldn't have to feel less proud if you chose to identify as pansexual or as any other label. Also, I'm sorry for the pain you went through, and congratulations for standing up high after all


infectiousloser

I wasn't arguing with you in the least. I thought I was adding to with my personal experience. That's all.


AligatorTears

I think polysexual could very easily get confused with polyamory.... and that is right on the border of being a form of sexuality all on its own. And the number of different variations on relationship dynamics under the non-monogamy umbrella makes the bi/pan discussion look easy by comparison.


wollemuschel

Thanks! That makes sense.


AligatorTears

Pansexuals don't do finger guns. 👈☝️


wollemuschel

Oh right, I got it now!


cool-acronym-bot

O.R.I.G.I.N.


ke00nik

Pan sexual is attracted to someone regardless of gender. In that it doesn’t play any role.


Lord-Fishquaad

I really wanna clear up misconceptions. Stop saying pansexual is gender blind. Pansexuality is being attracted to all genders, and you CAN have a preference and gender CAN play a role in attraction of you do have a preference.


[deleted]

I might be late but I hope I can still inform you. Pansexual is just a more specific term, it would technically fall under bisexual however bisexual is a MASSIVE spectrum that can include/exclude a lot of things based on the person Think of it this way: cosplay (dressing up) can be many different things, however it’s usually seen as one thing (dressing up as a pre existing character from a franchise) so there are more specific terms; like furry, dnd cosplay and LARPing to specify a certain part of it. It just gives a more specific description of what someone does! I hope that helps💕💕 I have more info and resources if you’re still confused, DM me if you’d like that ^w^


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Chrysanthemum96

No reason to be a panphobic asshole dude. Let people identify how they wish, there’s nothing transphobic or biphobic about pansexuality. I’m starting to think I might be pan just because I’m realizing I think about gender less and less when I’m actually attracted to someone and in a relationship with them. That’s my way of interpreting the difference between being pan and bi. There’s a difference to some people, there isn’t to others.


AbyssalPractitioner

I guess I also hate myself. Oh well.


GovPancake

I guess I hate transgender people now lmao. Have a great night! Stay safe ❤️


OGkureator

Bisexual is the attraction to two or more genders. Pansexual is attraction regardless of genders. It’s two separate, inclusive definitions


PrincessGary

Yeaaaah, you're gonna have to do some more research. Because you've decided to go be all panphobic, Which is kinda shitty. I've met a lot of people in my queer life and not one of them thinks that Pan is trans/biphobic.


DrTiger21

Thank you for including aces and aros :)


batdrumman

I have a valid question. As someone who ID's as Ace/Biro, is it still okay to identify myself under the Bisexual label to others in the community? My partner knows already, so is that something I should do? Or is it disrespectful to Bisexual people?


Jhk76

Yeah personally I would definitely consider you bisexual. Worst case scenario just use ''bi'' instead of ''bisexual'' so it doesn't implies that you have sexual attraction ;)


VeronicaLD50

Absolutely, 100% okay. Bi is all inclusive.


tdangerk1

You are a beautiful and amazing person thank you for making this


VeronicaLD50

Right back atcha! Thank you. I’m getting a good amount of hate from some people, so I appreciate you saying this.


maybeiam-maybeimnot

Alternatively I’ve always seen bi as being “attraction to two genders” be that men and women or gender fluid and gender queer, or women and gender queer, or men and non binary. Or... any other combination of two genders. But I can see others point that it could be two or more. And I respect the way people define their gender. I personally am sick of people describing my sexual orientation as transphobic. It’s not transphobic. If anything, the assumption that pansexuality (if defined as attraction to all genders) is somehow assuming that “all genders” must define trans men differently than cis men is ignoring the fact that there are more genders than just men and women. Like, hi, there are Non-binary people, gender queer, gender fluid, and so many more. And that’s what’s meant by “all”. So please, for the love of gods, stop suggesting either bisexuality or pansexuality are transphobic. There may be bisexual or pansexual people who are transphobic, but it has nothing to do with their sexual identity. I am not bisexual, I am pansexual. And I’m not defining trans people as separate genders than cis people. Trans women are women, trans men are men. And there are more genders than that. Thanks.


HulZr_RE

saying "the term bisexual means theres only 2 genders" is basically the equivalent to saying that "the term bilingual says that there's only 2 languages"


pengyino

October is the tenth month because of julius ceaser and someone else right? Or was that wrong


DonaldTheBird

Wait...ThEy LiKe MoRe ThAn TwO gEnDeRs?! (Im bi don’t attack me lol)


Oshi-sama

I see there's some difference about the LGBT+ community in France and the LGBT+ community on this sub. Interesting.


Luminaet

Lol I chose to identify as pansexual, primarily because I like the colors on the flag more


full_of_pride

Plus bisexual means multiple too so it is Different from pansexual or omnisexual


kovan_empire

I use “pansexual” because it makes it clear that I’m attracted to all genders. Saying “bi” still refers to just liking men and women to almost all people you interact with or see in a day. And it’s totally fair reasoning. There are lots of bis who like men and women, but enbys and the like just aren’t their cup of tea. I have zero issues with people using bisexual to mean “two or more”, and will fully support anyone who identifies that way. However, I don’t think I’ll ever use the term bisexual to refer to myself because to me, it means liking two genders (I’m not trying to start a debate, just stating my views).


maddpsyintyst

Regarding "'octo' means 'eight,'" in Western music, an "octave" means the eighth in a series; but in today's modern Western equal-temperament music system, there are 12 possible notes in play (*), and the octave would thus be the thirteenth in that series. So, definitions and usage count. Despite flying pan colors, I'm not in favor of the exclusive way that some folks treat "bi vs pan," on either side. I'm for both the nuanced definitions and personal qualifiers; and I fly my colors as such, but only to show that my own approach is nuanced in certain ways, not that others need to be. To be non-inclusive with these things toward others is to be oppressive toward others. (*) for a lovely example of palatable exceptions, go check out Elaine Walker's music on YouTube.


_baby_child_

[my all time favorite explanation.](https://www.reddit.com/r/bisexual/comments/hc9sy5/dont_know_whether_this_has_been_posted_here/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf) i’m pansexual and this has helped so much.


bruv10111

Actually October was the eighth month until Caesar and Augustus fucker it up. But anyway I consider bi to be the attraction towards the two sexes


nimmalt

Huh, by that measure, if I'm not strictly attracted to only female aesthetics, even if I'm not attracted to typical male aesthetics, but, for example, androgynous looks too, would I be Bi as well? I'm not sure on the proper terms, so please forgive and correct any offense.


Kylrm732

Oh that's interesting, I never thought about separating romantic and sexual attraction apart from the aro/ace spectrums.


PepeTheMemeDealer

Ever since I identified as pansexual about a week ago, I keep seeing memes saying bi includes trans and nb. It’s starting to freak me out,lol.


justwannabeher

Well, shucks, TIL. Guess I can’t slap a pan label on it now that I’m *squints*... gynoromantic bisexual?


CrAzYeGg69

Wait...but isn’t that just pan? I’m confused. Because pan is attraction to all genders. And then I thought bi was attraction to two.


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CrAzYeGg69

When you say “it invalidates bi and trans people”, are you talking about pan people?


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CrAzYeGg69

Ok. I thought you were one of the crazies who thought that pan was biphobic and transphobic for a second. Thanks for explaining it out though!


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CrAzYeGg69

No it’s not.


CrAzYeGg69

You see, pan is attraction to all genders without care for gender. (male, female, and everything on the enby spectrum.) In other words “gender blind”. People seem to assume that we think that trans is a separate gender but we don’t. People seem to think that pan is “bi-erasure” it’s not. While I now understand that bi is not just the two binary genders, pan means all while bi may only be attracted to some and have a preference.


PlasticOverTheSea

Ive always thought the "two" in bi meant two _sexes_. I don't know why people bring gender into it. Why the fuck am I being downvoted I’m literally bisexual


Chrysanthemum96

But... that's not it though. I'm not attracted to people based off of their sex and I'm sure a lot of bi people can agree. Also there's not two sexes anyway.


Beanieboio

but, what are pan people tho?


toastedbread39

This sounds like pansexuality. What's the difference?


Chrysanthemum96

To some there is no difference, to others the difference is that pan people don't have any gender preference. It just depends on how you want to identify


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toastedbread39

Then why bother responding