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surgef

Can someone tell what percent of people in the ICU are vaccinated? Did I hear recently that it was 60-40?


Kerrytwo

Yeah 40% of people in the icu are unvaccinated but only 5% of people in the country are unvaccinated so that's insane. If the vaccine didn't work there would be 5% unvaccinated in the icu.


Costello_Seamus

The government should give everyone with a vaccination certificate a basic UBI and exclude those without. Even just 50 euro per week.


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mhod12345

Of course not.


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mhod12345

The vast majority not taking the vaccine are Facebook conspiracy antivaxers though. So screw those idiots. I have no time for fools.


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Tecnoguy1

New strains develop when not everyone is vaccinated and it spreads among unvaccinated. There is no way to determine what mutation it will have and what treatment or *test* it will evade.


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July111969

Throw an oul source up there, a valid one.


fafan4

They're a teeny tiny minority. Anyway, the whole concept of vaccination programs & herd immunity is that people who just cannot get the vaccine (due to medical reasons) are protected by the 99.9% of the eligible population that can get theirs. Any decent Covid cert/vaccine passport/benefits system or whatever, really should take that teeny tiny minority into account. But the rest of the gowls that make a choice not to get vaccinated can get drop kicked into the sun.


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fafan4

>What makes you think most folk wouldnt look at a person with a genuine medical case and say "I dont care go get the jab" Irrelevant to the other commenter's UBI suggestion (or any other benefits for the vaccinated). Now you're just talking about nosy dickheads down the pub


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fafan4

A Covid cert/passport is also a benefit of being vaccinated. If someone has a genuine medical reason that prevents them from getting the vaccine then (in my opinion) they should also be given a cert/passport, just the same as the vaccinated. I genuinely don't know what the story is with that tiny cohort of the population All the other unvaxxed can go and shite


Tecnoguy1

By en large these people don’t exist. It’s an excuse for the vast majority of people stating this enabled by gobshite GPS.


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Tecnoguy1

I too can read the pamphlet and self diagnose an allergy to pretend I can’t be vaccinated.


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Tecnoguy1

This would all be included in the mandate. Going to a quack doctor to get an exemption shouldn’t be an excuse though.


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Tecnoguy1

Quaaack


mrhoppy_

To answer the headline, no. Instead of insulting them, calling them anti-vax nuts or whatever, answer the questions they have and explain where conspiracy theories fall short.


hdiieudbdjdjjeojd

That just doesn't work man. Being nice and trying to reason with this nonsense just seems to make it worse. We need to be extremely firm on not humouring it because they're not ever arguing in good faith.


mrhoppy_

>Being nice and trying to reason with this nonsense just seems to make it worse. Insulting them doesn't either. At least by answering questions you can convince _some_ people. You'll never convince everyone though. >We need to be extremely firm on not humouring it because they're not ever arguing in good faith. I'm assuming you're talking about the conspiracy theories. I'm not. I'm talking about legitimate concerns or questions that people have. As far as conspiracy theories go, at least try to explain why they don't make sense. At least it'll give them something to consider. Coming down hard on them by introducing coercive measures like vaccine passports or lockdowns for the unvaccinated only serves to reinforce their beliefs.


Slendercan

I have an acquaintance that knows two nurses who have refused the vaccine, stating it's too quick and there could be potential consequences in 10 years from now. She's taken their word as gospel as she knows them well and they're in the medical field. I tried explaining politely and calmly but soon saw it was a lost cause. What gets me is this idea that it's a personal choice and we need to respect it. This choice is directly harming people right now and we've to just nod and say "well it's up to you." There are people needing serious medical treatment that can't avail of it because there's no room in the ICU. If it were one of my family members suffering in this way, I'd have little to no patience for any anti-vaxxer I come across.


mrhoppy_

>I have an acquaintance that knows two nurses who have refused the vaccine, stating it's too quick and there could be potential consequences in 10 years from now Neither nurse is incorrect in their reasoning here, just so you know. >I tried explaining politely and calmly but soon saw it was a lost cause. What did you say to her? >What gets me is this idea that it's a personal choice and we need to respect it Well, it is. By mandating something like vaccines, not only does it set a bad precedent, but it also adds fuel to the "government is using COVID as an excuse to control us" fire


hdiieudbdjdjjeojd

The 'legitimate' concerns are no scientific and therefore are not valid. Simple as. All concerns have been addressed. Man I'm not even going to get into this you're obviously right leaning pretending to be centrist. You're not only not helping, you're being part of the problem.


mrhoppy_

>All concerns have been addressed. Well then let people make the decision themselves instead of trying to come down on them with mandates >Man I'm not even going to get into this you're obviously right leaning pretending to be centrist. I'm neither, I don't engage with any side. But what's wrong with right of centre? Just out of curiosity.


hdiieudbdjdjjeojd

If their decision has negative impacts on others it's not that simple.


mrhoppy_

But you can transmit COVID even if you're vaccinated


hdiieudbdjdjjeojd

lol a skeptic playing centrist I see


mrhoppy_

I'm not a sceptic, I'm vaccinated. But I don't understand how it "protects those around you" if it doesn't reduce transmission.


hdiieudbdjdjjeojd

All the information is there man. Can't excuse people not looking for it, or not believing it. This is two years in its been explained a million times.


tzar-chasm

It comes back to the adage that you cant use logic and reason to argue a person out of a position they haven't used logic and reason to reach


mrhoppy_

A lot of people are holding out purely because their questions haven't been answered and they're labelled conspiracy theorists for asking them. Answer them and the problem is solved.


tzar-chasm

What are their questions? Are any of them even remotely based in the realm of scientific possibility?


mrhoppy_

Well for example some people worry about possible long term effects that haven't been able to be studied yet. Others are wary of new vaccine technology and maybe aren't comfortable with it. Both are completely legitimate reasons to hold out. Another set of people feel off about it because of the pressure of getting vaccinated. I know plenty of people who won't get it because they feel pressured into it before they understand anything about how it works.


tzar-chasm

>Well for example some people worry about possible long term effects that haven't been able to be studied yet. Have there been long term side effects of any other vaccine? >Others are wary of new vaccine technology and maybe aren't comfortable with it. Vaccine technology is not new, people have been getting vaccinated since the 1700's >Both are completely legitimate reasons to hold out. Neither are legitimate reasons to endanger themselves and others >Another set of people feel off about it because of the pressure of getting vaccinated. Pressure to do the right thing, to protect themselves and others from a dangerous disease >I know plenty of people who won't get it because they feel pressured into it before they understand anything about how it works Do they know how their phones work? Are they versed in the minute details of how their car works? Do they understand intimately the engineering and physics required to provide electricity to their homes? But they still use those things


mrhoppy_

>Have there been long term side effects of any other vaccine? Any medication can have long term effects. You may be familiar with thalidomide and what happened with that. The fact is, mRNA vaccines are new, so we simply cannot know whether there will be long term effects or not for a while. >Vaccine technology is not new, people have been getting vaccinated since the 1700's mRNA vaccines have never been used on this scale before the pandemic. It's a new technology/method. >Neither are legitimate reasons to endanger themselves and others The only people they're endangering are themselves, since the vaccines do not prevent spread, and that's up to them. >Pressure to do the right thing, to protect themselves and others from a dangerous disease It doesn't matter. It's something going into their bodies. I held out for a while until I understood how it worked and what the side effects would be. This is why I say answer their questions instead of insulting them. >Do they know how their phones work? Are they versed in the minute details of how their car works? Do they understand intimately the engineering and physics required to provide electricity to their homes? But they still use those things Phones don't go into your body. Vaccines do. Bit of a false comparison there.


tzar-chasm

And because of thalidomide there are stringent safety rules on all new medical products The polio vaccine was new and used on an unprecedented scale, Jenners original smallpox vaccine and all subsequent versions were new and unprecedented They endanger all of us by being virus hosts, providing opportunities for breakout mutations Do you do the same due diligence with every new food product you consume?


mrhoppy_

>And because of thalidomide there are stringent safety rules on all new medical products You're missing my point. Because mRNA vaccines are new technology, it's impossible for us to know if there are long term adverse effects associated with them. That's why people are uncertain. It's nothing to do with how safe or effective they're claimed to be - nobody in the upper echelons of vaccine production knows what sort of effects will come up years down the line. >The polio vaccine was new and used on an unprecedented scale, Jenners original smallpox vaccine and all subsequent versions were new and unprecedented And I'm sure there were holdouts over those for the exact same reason, at least for a few years. >They endanger all of us by being virus hosts, providing opportunities for breakout mutations You can host the virus whether you're vaccinated or not. You're just less likely to get severely sick from it if you're vaccinated. Not only that, but the virus will mutate whether someone is vaccinated or not, because that's what viruses do. They mutate. Viruses gonna virus. >Do you do the same due diligence with every new food product you consume? Every new food product I consume does not contain a brand new technology or component.


tzar-chasm

What sort of effect should we expect? What possible harms have the global scientific community missed that a bunch of moms on Facebook figured out? Smallpox was Eradicated, I think the holdouts just died of smallpox instead, Polio was almost eradicated until this anti vax shite started If you are vaccinated you host a significantly smaller viral load for a much shorter period of time, greatly reducing the chance of breakout mutation Do you know that, do you know EXACTLY what's in every food product you consume, do you know when changes or substitutions happen in the factory?


tzar-chasm

>Phones don't go into your body. Vaccines do. Bit of a false comparison there. Everything's a dildo if you're brave enough


Tecnoguy1

The long term effects argument is a crock of shite. These people *want* to be infected with the novel virus which definitely has long term affects we don’t understand. It’s utterly moronic takes. The best thing to do is mandate it because it’s dangerous to let people that dumb think.


mrhoppy_

>The best thing to do is mandate it Congratulations, you've just proven a conspiracy theory correct


Tecnoguy1

Are you admitting to being dumb?


mrhoppy_

If you mandate a vaccine, you're literally proving a conspiracy theory that has been circulating around correct. That's all I'm saying.


Tecnoguy1

It should have been mandated from Day 1. There is no choice about it. Choose to risk your life and take the bed of a cancer patient or be a responsible human being. People aren’t responsible. That’s not a conspiracy. People are dumb as shit. That’s not a conspiracy. Force is the only thing that works with such un-empathetic individuals.


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tzar-chasm

The vaccine seems to be efficacious, the ratio between cases and deaths is better.


Tecnoguy1

There’s no questions which are unanswered.


mrhoppy_

How?


Tecnoguy1

Give me a question


mrhoppy_

What are the possible long term effects of the vaccine that could appear years down the line, particularly considering the fact that the technology is new and hasn't been used on a scale like this before? In plain English, how do mRNA vaccines work? Do the vaccines prevent transmission, and if not, why bother? If the vaccines don't prevent transmission, is it reasonable to say that you're protecting others by getting it?


Tecnoguy1

How do mRNA vaccines work? The same way RNAi works. RNAi has been used in labs for decades. We know how long RNA lasts in the body, we know what it’s going to transcribe and most importantly, we know it won’t have off-target affects because the RNA is not in our genome. If the RNA is expressed in you before the vaccine, you have a different issue and that’s Covid-19. It’s cutting edge but it’s not really as new as you suggest. In terms of long-term effects the Nobel virus is notably more worrying. For your next question, aside from reducing the infective period and likelihood you’ll be coughing up a lung, as it lessens your infection you’re less likely to end up in an ICU bed. This saves beds for Covid patients who have underlying health issues and also general patients. Why should you take a bed a car crash victim can use just because you are afraid of a perfectly safe treatment? That’s why mandates are important. People don’t care about the latter, it directly affects others.


mrhoppy_

>How do mRNA vaccines work? The same way RNAi works. >RNAi has been used in labs for decades. We know how long RNA lasts in the body, we know what it’s going to transcribe and most importantly, we know it won’t have off-target affects because the RNA is not in our genome. Cool, now try explaining that to someone who doesn't understand immunology or genomics in the slightest. >For your next question, aside from reducing the infective period and likelihood you’ll be coughing up a lung, as it lessens your infection you’re less likely to end up in an ICU bed. This saves beds for Covid patients who have underlying health issues and also general patients. Why should you take a bed a car crash victim can use just because you are afraid of a perfectly safe treatment? This doesn't answer my question. Does it reduce transmission?


Tecnoguy1

Like I said if you actually fucking care, you can buy a textbook. If this is so important to you, you can afford a €70 spend. Biology is *not* a difficult science. It’s not chemistry and physics. Otherwise, follow the expect advice which universally agrees with what I’m telling you and recommends you to get it.


Tecnoguy1

Are you going to address my question of why you can’t read a book? Are you afraid of reading? Why are you asking people on Reddit when you can read a book?


Tecnoguy1

There’s no talking to these people.


mrhoppy_

Well then don't, but don't expect them to be convinced if you don't at least try


Tecnoguy1

They will never be convinced.


mrhoppy_

Then don't complain if you're not even gonna try


Tecnoguy1

Nah just abuse them and keep asking for a mandate to fuck them over. They’re dumb as shit, natural selection is going to hurt others more than them. And that’s not right.


mrhoppy_

>They’re dumb as shit, natural selection is going to hurt others more than them By "others" you mean...?


Tecnoguy1

Literally anyone in their life who needs to pick up the pieces and any individual who has to be involved with their subsequent hospital visit. And the taxpayer to fund all the above!


mrhoppy_

Fair enough You said in your previous comment >that's not right Neither is forcing people to do things they aren't comfortable with.


Tecnoguy1

Hahaha that’s not right bro. That’s not right


Agustus_De_Waat

That does not work... they have an answer for everything... its like trying to use reason with a schizophrenic.


mrhoppy_

Then why bother wasting your time getting mad at them?


hdiieudbdjdjjeojd

No they ran an anti cannabis campaign in the run up to the vaccines instead. They're literally doing nothing useful.


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FlurpTheDerp

I feel you've strategically left out the biggest % group of people who haven't taken the vaccine. The ones who feel Facebook heresay is a better source of information than medical professionals.


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tzar-chasm

>You do know a lot of doctors are telling people with a myriad of conditions and even pregnant women not to get the jab. Link?


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tzar-chasm

Can you Link to an article from RTE which backs your assertion? Doctor patient confidentiality does not preclude doctors from highlighting public health issues, it just means they can't discuss the specifics of an individual case, if there is a public health issue then doctors are duty bound to report it. For example, they cant say, Mary from number 7 and Fatima from 36 both developed complications, But they can say, they have observed Patients develop complications. So can you link to something like that, I wont even press for Peer Review at this stage, just a report of issues


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tzar-chasm

The RTE links seem to say the opposite of what you claim. I'm unsure about these reports on spike proteins I'll have to read them carefully and ask my sister who has a PhD in Biology, I should be talkin to her over the weekend Actually had a decent skim over those 4 papers, how do you think any of them are relevant to vaccines in pregnancy?


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tzar-chasm

She's also fascinated by Quack science and 'paper mills' so dont presume to know what someone else thinks


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jambokk

That negativity was there before covid, that hate and division, covid was just a really convinient tool to make it much worse. Covid isn't inherently political, it was made political by bad actors who seen it as an opportunity to sow doubt and chaos.