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zebraanddog

I have a few friends that I know struggle with this kind of thing, the need for care constantly for-sure. I don’t like to say that she had bad parents, but I do believe their disinterest in making her independent when she was younger has resulted in her inability to care for herself on her own now. Is there like a reason certain parents struggle with this? I can’t think of why a parent wouldn’t want their kid to eventually be independent.


SweetPickleRelish

At its core, munchausens is about eliciting caring behaviors from others, but I feel like that compulsive need can stem from a variety of places. Fear of autonomy could definitely be one of them. But it could also be that they had attachment problems as a kid, poor parenting, a personality disorder, etc.


TheCounsellingGamer

Wanting that caring response is an important part of FD. If you peeled back the desire for attention that's what you'd find underneath, wanting to be cared for, loved, valued, etc. It's important to remember that we all desire that. The need to be cared for, to be paid attention to, is part of being human. However when someone has FD that desire becomes a pathology. It almost turns into an addiction. You can see it in almost all the timelines. It starts out with one diagnosis and a few procedures. Then more diagnoses get added on, each one more complicated and serious than the last. Before you know it the person has multiple medical devices and may have even had major surgeries. Just like any other addiction there's only really 2 outcomes: get help or die. Ironically FD is a very serious health condition. If left untreated then there's a good chance that the person will eventually be left with severe physical problems or they might even die. I'd say that FD is potentially much more serious and life threatening than gastroparesis, POTS, etc.


Coloradobluesguy

I was thinking about this the other day wondering what if the parents of illness fakers are to blame for the munching by whatever went on in childhood.


TheCounsellingGamer

This is getting into Freud and psychodynamic territory, but I'd say their childhoods almost certainly play a massive role. Obviously things like abuse have a huge impact but even the kind of attachment style parents use can have negative consequences. For example imagine that your parents used an avoidant style of parenting. So they didn't abuse you or neglect your physical needs but they did ignore a lot of your emotional needs. Perhaps the only time they were affectionate and attentive was when you were sick. If you grow up with that then in your mind you might equate being unwell with being loved. It's only recently that we're beginning to realise that even "small" things in child can have a massive impact on someone well into adulthood.


the-bakers-wife

Huh..????


Coloradobluesguy

Voice to text gone wrong, I fixed it


drmeliyofrli

What?!


Coloradobluesguy

Sorry voice to text


Hcmgbbalaaaa

I think it’s emotional immaturity with mental illness. Many seem depressed or have other psychiatric conditions. I wish they could get the help they actually needed


Littleloula

Munchausens is a mental illness in its own right. Although some of these seem like they might be malingering more than that


Iceprincess1988

Ash.....bella.....


Smart_Cantaloupe_848

Nah, Ash does too well at most things she actually puts effort into. She's a weed addict plain and simple.


Iceprincess1988

What exactly does she do well?


meanwhileaftrmdnight

She naps better than most Olympians and her resting is the BEST I've ever seen! /s in case that wasn't incredibly clear lmfao


beepbeepboopbooped

people smoke weed all day everyday and lead successful lives, this comment is bunk


marthasprodigy

No it’s not, stop spreading dangerous misinformation. Some people smoke all day and are fine, some people develop an addiction. There’s no chemical dependency on weed, but people still get addicted and are affected negatively.


Yupperdoodledoo

Of course, but weed addiction doesn’t cause one to fake other illnesses.


marthasprodigy

Oh for sure!


beepbeepboopbooped

Just trying to say that Ash has more issues than just weed dependency. It's not weed that makes people act like her.


angel_aight

I think it’s obvious she has other issues and other people can use it perfectly fine, but imo it’s apparent she has a problem. I don’t think she uses marijuana in a healthy way and I believe she’s dependent and addicted to it. It’s like exercise is healthy for 99.999% but there are a select few who form an unhealthy addiction. It’s not the exercise itself that causes the issue, but what it’s supplementing in their life.


maewanen

✨Maladaptive coping mechanisms✨


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SimonSalamander

Take out the source part to avoid getting in trouble for the powerlevel blog rule.


marthasprodigy

I don’t really think thats blogging in the context of this sub. We’re allowed to share our experiences and use “I” statements, just not talk about our own health experiences.


SimonSalamander

Oh gosh the comment now has been removed. Wonder why.


marthasprodigy

Why are your panties in a twist? You really waited and watched my comment for a day? It’s not that deep homie.


SimonSalamander

I wouldn’t risk a temp ban, which I’ve seen them hand out lately. But you do you, I was just trying to be nice.


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marthasprodigy

Oh I’m not. Ash is lazy, but weed demotivates some people is all I was trying to say. That’s nice it doesn’t demotivate you.


CharlotteOnTheRun

But you can smoke all the weed and still live life.


marthasprodigy

Some people can, not all.


CharlotteOnTheRun

I guess but I think weed is the least of her problems


xxoddityxx

I think this behavior is pretty complex (with the exception of the straight scammers) and that there are always multiple factors contributing. “Failure to launch” can be one element, with the behavior being a defense mechanism against shame, but it’s probably not enough to explain the severity of these cases. For one, it doesn’t completely explain the performative aspects of turning to social media to “advocate” for other “warriors” so that hundreds (sometimes thousands) of people can follow their “journey.” IMO most subjects also seem to have a personality disorder that places them at the center of the universe, and that feeds off attention, people constantly taking care of them, worrying for them, feeling bad for them, etc. It’s why they need a laundry list of conditions, and all seem to have medical PTSD on top of their 5-7 illnesses or disorders. Nothing is ever enough. They need to be the sickest and most suffering. This reads to me like Cluster B behavior.


gmilfmoneymilk

I think some cases are failure to launch, but I also think that some of these are psychiatric cases that are explained to the world as physical because their families have taught them to do so because medical problems are more socially acceptable. It should be noted that a lot of the cases we see here come from upper middle class people whose families probably hold reputations locally. The problem is, when they receive support and attention for their health problem instead of their mental problem, they tend to play up the health issue so it's congruent with the suffering of the mental issue. Then, they're recieving help and support in the social and work life for an overblown medical issue instead of actually addressing the root problems and having their support socially and professionally dedicated to what they actually struggle with. This creates a vicious cycle because they still need help with their root psych issue but they're instead getting treatment for a medical one and but that will never actually help them.... Forcing them to make new explanations and actually have to lie to validate their still very real root/psych issues and the disability that comes with it. Some psych issues are co-morbid with medical illnesses or physical symptoms and nobody seems to know why yet. I suspect this "failure to launch"/forced lying for Bella and Ash particularly because they both seem to have some serious adjustment issues and seem kind of trapped by their whole situation now with seemingly no way to get out without invalidating whatever actual struggle they're having that they can't really discuss publicly.


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rosaparksand-rec

They’re aware; they don’t care. It’s not a valid reason for them, it’s their excuse.


TurbulentPicture6184

And sadly I've seen this type of thing occur so many times IRL, exactly as we see on this sub, so it's becoming more and more common. I'm sure the pressures of the world with COVID, Global Warming, Wars, etc contributes and we will see another influx of cases


Inevitable_Pie9541

As a factor, this phenomenon is mentioned virtually daily on this and other subs who call out illness fakers. Definitely a component of their behaviour, but too reductive to be the sole motivating "reason" for such long game cosplay, up to and including self mutilation from unnecessary surgeries, and permanent scars and internal restructuring from non medically necessary invasive medical devices.


[deleted]

Not reductive at all. There as a ton of evidence base research correlating perceived failures to the development of munchausen’s in people with poor coping mechanisms. A surprisingly big portion of people with munchausen’s are people who wanted to work in healthcare but were somehow unable to accomplish that. Another big factor is being sickly or emotionally neglected as a child because they sort of subconsciously began to associate being sick with receiving positive attention.


Inevitable_Pie9541

Yes, it is by definition reductive to claim failure to launch as the *sole* reason for munching. That's what the word reductive means.


marthasprodigy

I think there’s a spectrum of self awareness. I think on one end we have people battling depression/anxiety who have real somatic symptoms from that, and then they latch onto their physical symptoms without much purposeful action or thinking. The other end is people deliberately making everything up. The delusion I think changes severity from case-to-case. I don’t think that people that 100% believe they are sick are on the same level as a legit munchie. Health anxiety/hypochondria is very real and rampant in support groups. Join any support groups for a “trendy” illness and you’ll see over half of the posts are just people reaching. They tend to talk over the people that are legitimately needing support. Don’t forget that munchausen is a serious and tragic mental illness. Not just some silly dramatics, but a diagnosable illness with a standard of care. It’s so severe that it can be fatal. A mental illness like that I’d imagine can make you forget “life” and what it should be, just like depression can.


PowerForeign4849

So what’s the care plan for something like Munchhausens? Because I’m guessing that would be almost impossible to treat


Littleloula

https://www.nhs.uk/mental-health/conditions/munchausens-syndrome/overview/ this page gives a good explanation. In short, psychological therapy but it's very hard to get the person to accept they need it


PowerForeign4849

Thanks


marthasprodigy

I’m not sure exactly. From what I’ve heard it involves a lot of serious therapy and cooperation from the entire medical team, because there are often physical issues that still need treatment. I think it’s impossible to treat due to the nature of the illness, the munchie has to cooperate but that manipulation is so ingrained. I don’t know how they’d stop the impulses while still providing medical care. From the case studies I’ve read, most munchies when confronted leave AMA and are “lost to follow up” AKA they just find another system or doctor and never return.


ameliaaa59

absolutely, and this is especially interesting in relation to how comfortable they become in the role of being "sick." I think most people who are genuinely chronically ill/immunocompromised/sick in general often have to learn how to balance that part of their life with also *living,* especially if they're young. SO MANY genuinely sick people go to college, travel, have active social lives and healthy relationships, etc. and even if they truly cannot do those things, so many chronically ill people still find the balance in the parts of life they CAN participate in. it's unnatural to watch someone like ash just sit around all day every day and just not participate in any part of a normal life. I think that's what the chronic illness online community skews the most. being chronically ill should not be about how much your illness can consume your life or define you, but rather how you can continue to build a life you love despite it.


strawberrytearz

I think it's a major contributor. I know that they do this to themselves and what they're doing online is wrong, but I do feel bad for these women. However, I also recognize that they dug themselves into this hole and are too afraid to admit it bc they will get in trouble (probably legally). I also think some of them have genuinely convinced themselves that they are sick, as well.


ConfusionNeither394

I will say this- the people who have had to be “out of service” so to speak - out for a surgery, or on bed rest temporarily to recover from a surgery or even bed rest for pregnancy- usually normal people with their own problems who have to take time out of life due to something out of their control- they become stir crazy . Sure, bed rest the first few days or time off of work being able to nap and be lazy is great at first . But normal functional individuals in such situations eventually are like, “ I can’t handle staying in this bed and just sitting around the house all day ! I am ready to be back at work “ or back to whatever their normal is. It is totally a failure to launch, a failure to thrive, a severe form of social anxiety of some sort or SOMETHING that is wrong with these patients who enjoy having no independence, no privacy , no fun times with friends or family , no normal social interactions, no enjoyment of going out for dinner or drinks or dancing , or going shopping, taking a long awaited and hard earned vacation - there is nothing normal about enjoying a life that these folks are living. Normal people who are suddenly struck with illness or tragedy generally pull themselves out within a matter of time because they are physically recovering and/or mentally recovering and can’t wait to get back to life. Living. Independence and enjoying the results of their hard work in life. It’s amazing to me how settled and “fine” this group of unusual medically complex individuals are with just struggling and trudging through each day with their only concern or excitement being when their next appointment or surgery is. Usually, even if we hate our job or are not happy in life, we are driven by that unhappiness and inability to do things we want like buy a car, have our own place, have new clothes, try a new restaurant and so forth. We are driven by our hardships to work harder, get a new job or ask for a promotion, move, travel- CHANGE our situation. Most people change their situations pretty quick when things aren’t going well. This group of people is content with just sitting stagnant. Their life is literally found within their medical chart and what medication is due to be taken at noon. It’s heartbreaking but also fascinating to watch . I am shocked at the lack of motivation. They never reach the point where they say “enough”! “I’m going to kick butt in physical therapy and I am going to tell my doctor I’m ready to go off of this medication bc I want to live!”. It’s truly an anomaly that I cannot comprehend.


PianoAndFish

If it made sense it wouldn't be a mental illness, that's part of the criteria (e.g. drawing a line between a mental disorder with no obvious cause and what I would call a shit life disorder - if someone living on the streets in a dangerous area with no reliable income feels hopeless and anxious most of the time is that a disorder or a reasonable response to their situation?)


EndlesslyMeh

Oh yeh it’s been discussed before and I’m sure most here are prime examples. Sad really.


sbattistella

I definitely feel like this is very true of many of the subjects. Ash being one that is very obvious. I feel like she's dug the hole so deep that she doesn't even think she can get out. It's quite unfortunate.


longblack90

I think it’s a contributing factor and doesn’t help that the majority of subjects are women. Women tend to feel they need an explanation for things, to appease society, expectations etc. This could result in a hyper focus on health. I don’t think it’s just ‘failure to launch’ though.


Character_Recover809

Failure to launch gets mentioned every two or three posts, and pretty much every time Ellen or Bella post anything.


hotknives__

Consider this one the last of the week then!


potato_couch_

Ash comes to mind too


Younicron

Ash is definitely the first one I think of as a failure to launch. I really do think she deeply hates the idea of leaving the nest so to speak. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that she attributes so many of her supposed conditions to mold she encountered living away from home for the first time and I really think she exacerbates the symptoms of her actual illness (Crohn’s) in large part to fend off any potential parental prodding towards independence.


whitelilyofthevalley

Dani M as well. Anytime she starts something that may make a career for her, she suddenly has super serious issues. Just look at the nursing program and her trying to find an issue now.


Character_Recover809

Good point. I forgot about her. Briefly. And now she's back in my brain, leg popping me to the brink of insanity....


SubjectInvestigator3

Ellen’s case is very different because her parents are purposely keeping her in a state of perpetual infantcy.


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Empty-Neighborhood58

SHE WAS! In my opinion she was pretty good A few people have equated (in the past, i didn't see it on this post) that maybe her failure to launch could be from her not doing good enough to get scholarships and continue gymnastics in college


zizzerzazzerzuzzz

This is a bonus but likely not the main motivation. The main motivation is a dysfunctional psychological need to be in the sick role (and being excused from responsibilities is part of the sick role), and many of the subjects with Factitious Disorder have built their identities around this role


luzdelmundo

Agreed


kikucicu

Absolutely. Thinking of a couple of non-sub subjects, but when university ceased to be an option physical illness became one.


rockridge123

Failure to launch isn’t a syndrome at all. It’s not in the DSM 5 manual


[deleted]

Nobody said it is. It’s colloquialism for people who had some dream or ambition they wanted to achieve, failed, and rather than taking accountability they decided to blame all of their shortcomings on some external force that “caused” them to fail so they don’t have to acknowledge the fact that their actions directly led to their failure.


Empty-Neighborhood58

Would it be considered off subject if i say Darth Vader definitely had it lol


clotclout

It’s not a diagnosis or a syndrome, it’s a phenomenon. Equally as valid to discuss here I’d say! Especially because if you go far back enough in the history of the DSM, it’s all just named phenomena.


Empty-Neighborhood58

Do you mind me asking what's the difference is? Like is it just a definition difference or an actual difference? I've just always wondered but never asked


clotclout

The difference between which terms? As far as DSM diagnoses, they aren’t scientifically valid (you could show the same objective measures to 2 different doctors and get 2 different diagnoses, each with good reasoning behind it) but they *are* helpful enough with classification, getting people symptom-appropriate treatment, and, principally, assigning ICD10 codes to them so the diagnosis can be billed and further assigned to insurance-approved treatment. I’m not a conspiracy theorist or anything, and I’ve got my own diagnoses, but when you step back it’s all just ‘stuff people do that seems to happen together’ but it’s not anything like diagnosing a physical issue which tends to be more objective. But then you run into hybrid things like CFS and fibro…which have a strong mental component, but are physically apparent. But then you look at schizophrenia and wonder if there’s a physical component there manifesting as a mental component. But then, isn’t everything doing that? So you see how pathologizing behaviors can be, and I hate to use this term but, a slippery slope. As far as syndrome v disease, I think syndrome has something about encompassing myriad symptoms into one identifiable and distinct illness, but I really don’t know about that and googling would be better than asking me I’m sorry!


Empty-Neighborhood58

Thank you! I was wondering about syndrome vs disease but i will be looking it up


hotknives__

It's not a true diagnosis, but isn't it a well-recognized catch all term for what it's described as? I understand using 'syndrome' is grossly incorrect.


[deleted]

Yes you’re right. That person is being pedantic.


[deleted]

Dani for sure. Instead of posting photos of her pills on a Friday night she should be out having dinner or seeing a concert. Being a 36 year old and enjoying the prime of her life.


1ShotPerKendraGiggle

She would be, except jeff bezos keeps her boyfriend chained up in an amazon warehouse so she cant 🥺


feederOfCats

Has anyone ever seen any evidence of the boyfriend?


Ok_Selection2574

There is a man pictured once, that’s over a decade old, but none since then, and the specific man in question has no social media association with her at all. He seems to have absolutely no idea this woman he once knew is tattooing herself with “their anniversary”, or maybe he does (it’s all under her real name) and intelligently doesn’t engage with it


heyarlogrey

she’s 36????


Xero-01

Yep. She's been running from the Sandmen for 6 years.


optimistic69er

Hard to believe, right?


AcanthocephalaLeft40

Ellen always piques my curiosity because something just isn’t right about her situation…


magafornian_redux

In case it interests you, the word you intended here is piques.


AcanthocephalaLeft40

i fixed it


Neon_Fantasies

Everything about her reminds me of Gypsy Rose, especially when she would wear those puffy ‘princess’ dresses and pose for the camera


Xero-01

I think it's even been suggested that she might be totally in control- long game of being able to engage in acting/living like a child, hiding it in plain sight behind her "condition". And up to a point, some of the more superficial juvenile things she does are things that a lot of teens and young adults do, so those not "in the know" probably just see a young adult having fun, no suspicion beyond that. I've said it before that if she's doing that, she's \*very\* shrewd in how she's pulling it off- never anything that attracts the wrong attention or potential legal action. But a lot of those pics she's posed for do give off a very creepy Gypsy Rose vibe- which honestly I'm suprised hasn't attracted the attention of the authorities, in the context of a disabled person being mistreated by caregivers.


clotclout

Ellen ‘worries’ me the most because I feel like she has the least agency over her situation. If she *wanted* to enroll in classes, I’m not sure Almighty Zeus would even be down for that. To be clear, I think she loves this shit. But I think if she decides to move on, I don’t think she’s like ash where she could just ask for an apartment down payment, get it, and move without issue. There’s something to that weird emotionally incestuous relationship. I see Dani as one of the furthest-in given her age. Everyone else might be able to snap out. It’s going to be especially hard to secure employment for the idiots using legal names in their handles though…


veritasquo

>It’s going to be especially hard to secure employment for the idiots using legal names in their handles though… This part continues to boggle my mind. Imagine putting in the therapeutic work only to realize you are unable to gain any form of meaningful employment. How do you even get around that part?


Xero-01

Dani comes across like someone who besides failed to launch, failed to munch successfully. From what I've read, she's been doing this for years but what's been shown here covers the fairly recent past, so it seems that she was trying to get to where she is now with her munching a long time ago but it took a long time for her to finally get to her "goal", compared to the other munchies who seem to move very fast into full-on munching with all the "fun" things they were seeking. Seems that her long "fight" to munch also is what ruined her chances at everything else.


[deleted]

God, I feel sorry for the unsuspecting employer who ends up on this sub…


2018MunchieOfTheYear

Ellen is just like all the other munchies except she acts like a pre-teen


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2018MunchieOfTheYear

Or maybe you’re just twisting everything you see to fit a narrative…where is the proof that she isn’t in control?


donutlikethis

It’s really clear to see if you’ve been following the whole way.


2018MunchieOfTheYear

I’ve been following Ellen since early 2018. I would love some specific examples that support your theory.


AcanthocephalaLeft40

yeah and the preteen part is what fascinates me lol


acrensh

100%. I couldn’t imagine throwing my life away. Everyone I know with chronic illnesses, one much worse than them all, work or are productive in society. What a waste


meadowmbell

She had failure to thrive as a baby so that’s not too far off.


Empty-Neighborhood58

I'm sorry this is off topic but I've heard "failure to thrive as a baby" a few times this week. Does it mean that the baby like won't eat or drink? That's the only thing i can think of because babies don't really do much


ProfoundlyFaded

It's essentially when a baby is not getting enough calories to grow properly - now, it's important to note that it is not something that is necessarily caused by neglect. I ended up formula feeding my two because they simply weren't getting enough milk out of me for their needs, and had I not made the switch, the beans would have ended up there. There can also be other issues at play.


meadowmbell

https://kidshealth.org/en/parents/failure-thrive.html