T O P

[Marc Methot]: Over two years in Dallas I saved 1.4 million (Through Tax)

[Marc Methot]: Over two years in Dallas I saved 1.4 million (Through Tax)

rawrberry_

I love not paying any state tax but god damn do they hit you in property taxes.


maximalx5

How much are property taxes, if you don't mind me asking?


SickOffYourMudPie

2.5-3%


JamesBourne008

They're still 1.0% in Ottawa. Lol.


rawrberry_

bout 7k right now


ragtime94

*laughs in northeast*


your_inner_monologue

NY property taxes are a sick joke


Throwaway112233441yh

Not nyc or the Hamptons. NYC is low af and Southampton is bout 0.57%. Property assessments are nice and low


Other_World

It's NJ that has killer property tax. My parents 3 bedroom 2.5 bath 2 floor house in a 3/4 acre pays more in property tax than my aunt who lives in an UWS penthouse.


ianisms10

Where in NJ if you don't mind me asking? I'm in Bergen County and it's bad here.


Jswarez

Go to Vancouver you can delay property taxes until you sell your house. I think it's restricted to age but it's something that's happening there.


mantiseye

lol yeah I am buying a place in NYC and the property taxes are low as fuck. It’s amazing. It’s like way lower than my rent has ever been. The actual property is expensive but once you’ve got it you’re golden.


Devils29

Right? I legit actually laughed at that haha


MJA182

Gotta pay for schools/teachers somehow. Although here in Vegas we are lucky, no income tax and relatively low property tax too


hesperidisabitch

>Gotta pay for schools/teachers somehow. I was under the impression America had stopped doing that?


Jswarez

America still pays more for education than Canada per capita....


JohnGarrettsMustache

I think Canadian teachers make more money but our schools don't have the programs and clubs US schools have (like sports teams). Where I went to high school I think we just had a basketball and volleyball team. It was extracurricular and fundraised. My wife's aunt and uncle are teachers (one is principal) and they make $200k+ combined.


newrimmmer93

Is that $200K CAD? My buddies dad is a HS principal and I think was making over $150K USD. A lot of my teachers with 10+ years experience in HS were making $80K+ in 2011. It really matters the state and the area.


Jswarez

My mom's a retired principal and she topped out at 120k a year Canadian. Her pension is very strong (70k a year or so forever ). But on a per capita basis the USA spends about 2k more per year than Canada on education.


JamesBourne008

Ontario teachers are the highest paid in North America and they still want to strike every two years like clockwork. We're absolutely not getting our money's worth here.


UncleBogo

Last time they striked it was primarily for reasons other than pay. Knowing what teachers have to deal with, I'm happy to pay them well.


JamesBourne008

Oh right, it had nothing to do with salary except a salary increase is what they they got at the end of the strike. Smack my head, how could I have confused their demands.


DrDankDankDank

You’ve heard of inflation right. Don’t be mad just because they stand up to their bosses and demand more when you won’t.


JamesBourne008

Right, it has nothing to do with the fact that teachers union essentially owns the NDP and the LPC in Ontario.


Dr_Marxist

Their core demand was class sizes. The next demands were all quality of life shit. Any time your wages don't increase ~4% a year you're taking a paycut, the teachers wanted inflation parity (something like 2% iirc). Stop lying.


UncleBogo

I didn't say that now did i? Of course they are asked for a wage increase in their talks. Who wouldn't when the cost of living increases annually. My comment was more aimed at your opinion that teachers only strike for more pay, which isn't the case.


JamesBourne008

They literally only strike for pay. They get pay increases everytime, but claim they're striking for everything else. They hold the province hostage on the regular. I've teachers in my family and I've abaolutley not sympathy for them at all.


sfasdf2141

Most government positions are paid quite well in Canada. I have a close friend who's a nurse and with some overtime (not even a lot, just an extra shift a month) she clears 100k/year in Alberta, with amazing job security, vacation, pension, etc. I think the public perception from the States that teachers/nurses are wildly underpaid leaks into Canada, but the majority do very well.


JamesBourne008

Agreed. RNs are *overpaid* honestly. That's why there's multiple classification of nurse now. Mind you, with inflation going insane up here. Maybe they aren't overpaid.


FatTim48

Dude. You obviously don't know any nurses then. They aren't even remotely overpaid. They are overworked to hell here in Ontario. Overtime isn't a reason to say they are overpaid, it's a symptom of the health care system not having enough nurses employed. 12-16hr shifts are horse shit and outrageously detrimental to their health, but they have to pull those shifts because there aren't enough people to fill the hours. Don't talk if you don't know what you're talking about. Damn. Overpaid. Lol. Unreal.


JamesBourne008

Literally have an RN in my family. 12 hour shifts, over 100k a year. Not talented. Thinks she's smarter than the doctors (my brother is an ER physician). Overpaid. As. Fuck.


GoodN1ght94

Wow. Almost like striking actually works.


JamesBourne008

Holding the entire province hostage so you get better treatment than everyone else? Yea, it works apparently. But don't expect everyone to sing your praises when you pull that shit constantly for the past three decades. Especially when it's directly detrimental to school programs because your pay is literally higher than all your counterparts.


GoodN1ght94

Oh please. That's just fallacious. Other provinces have lower pay and most of them lower student services. People wouldn't need to strike if government and employers respected anything else. They don't.


JamesBourne008

They have lower student services do they? Like fuckin what? What do we have in Ontario? "Guidance counselors?". I remember them being "super useful". How many schools have football/hockey teams funded these days eh? Almost none. Why's that? Also, the teachers flat out refuse to do any extra curricular stuff like that because they "don't get paid for it". So dudes like me that volunteer coach hockey should expect to be paid? Mother fucker I work twice as hard as a teacher does, easily, for the same "A4 rates" (100kish). The other outrageous complaint they had was "oh well you need ten years experience to make that 100k salary! That's unfair!". Are you fucking kidding me? Seems pretty generous to me. Overpaid. To the detriment of us all. End of story.


DantesEdmond

And they pay twice as much per capita on healthcare than Canada, without having public healthcare for all. Just because they pay more doesnt mean they use the money well.


JamesBourne008

Canadian healthcare is garbage compared to literally every other industrialized country not named America. Our constantly saying "at least you can't go bankrupt like America" gives our politicians lisence to ignore the massive problems.


vatrakk

> Canadian healthcare is garbage compared to literally every other industrialized country not named America. > > Seeing fellow canadians spreading that right wing shit honestly blows my fucking mind. Your also a fan of Crowder and a climate change denier LOL


hesperidisabitch

Money well spent, clearly.


bluAstrid

How much of that cost is syphoned by lenders through student loans’ interest?


303Carpenter

None? Two completely different things


whoisbill

The problem is that the money is not spent equally across school districts


Jswarez

How is it spent in the USA? In Canada money is just tied to students and what grade they are in. I can't remember the numbers exactly but in ontario it's like 9k a student a year. There is a bit extra to spent on special needs and special programs. But it's under 10 % if the budget.


whoisbill

It depends on the town/district. Poor don't collect as much money and this the schools get less funding.


303Carpenter

Depends on where you live, the bad districts in my state have equal or higher spending per student than anyone but the ritzy private schools


Invadingmuskrats

Yet Canadian students still have higher test scores and some of the highest in the world. So you're paying more for less. Not to mention the 70 million people who looked at Trump and went "yes, this is clearly presidential material".


Skalforus

Ignoring the Trump comment, the rest is exactly why many complain about higher taxes. It's fair to ask that we at least get what we pay for from our taxes.


Jswarez

That semi true. Canada has had falling math and science scores for almost 15 years. The top end does better In the USA. The middle is the same. The bottom is better in Canada. My mom's a retired principal in Canada and have heard all the data. Household income has less importance in Canada. Marriage of parents matters a lot in the USA. Education of parents has massive impact in both countries. We do better on the bottom end, they do better on the upper middle and above end.


simplegdl

Is that skewed by private schools? Or is that for public education


Skalforus

Who told you that? We pay vast amounts per capita for education, healthcare, and other social services. *Spending* is not something we're lacking.


hesperidisabitch

Well it was a joke. Also, there are numerous anecdotes about teachers having to buy their own classroom materials so the kids aren't left with nothing; which is a sick joke.


your_inner_monologue

It all goes to the military industrial complex and corporate bailouts now


c71score

Isn't most of your stuff paid with *crap*?


NathanGa

I believe it’s pronounced *craps*, and I still have no idea how it works.


MJA182

Lol. Yes tourism taxes pay for it


usernamedstuff

We have relatively high sales tax compared to some other states, though. We also have special taxes on our resorts, so we make the tourists pay for things like schools. Also Cannabis sales have an added tax that is "supposed" to go to schools as well. Also, a lot of it comes down to how efficient your government is as well, or what they choose to focus on. CA taxes the hell out of their people, and their roads are garbage, and they have homeless/unhoused/urban campers (whatever) everywhere.


MJA182

Maybe like 2% higher, it's negligible for most people. Yeah we pay for most of our stuff with tourism tax, and the strip is still seeing record people come regardless. Like I said, gotta pay for schools, police/fire and infrastructure somehow given we have no income tax here. California's issues are multifaceted. Their pension system got bloated, they're still paying out salaries for people (teachers, police, etc.) who are living longer and haven't worked for 30+ years. In a state so big, it means a lot of money. Their population grew too much, too fast, and their tax system wasn't set to handle it so they had to try to fix it with higher income taxes, their property taxes are insanely low there relative to the rest of the country. There are homeless people everywhere. California just happens to be the nicest weather and place to be homeless, and coupled with sky rocketing rent and real estate prices...it was a perfect storm.


usernamedstuff

The homeless problem is usually caused by addiction and mental health issues, which are essentially one in the same. Sky rocketing rent and real estate can be fixed by allowing new homes to be built. All issues that can be resolved by a government.


Spideyjust

So 700'000 a year on a 4.9 million dollar salary. That's basically an extra 15% of your contract in your pocket if you play in Dallas instead of Ottawa.


sex_panther_by_odeon

That is why there are rumours Habs offered Radulov the same contract as Dallas when he was UFA. But that would mean Radulov would have lost over 5 million dollars over his contract signing with Montreal. It's so hard to compete.


mdlt97

MTL also offered that contract after he committed to Dallas it was a last-second offer, had MTL just given that offer at the start he likely signs with the habs


DelugeQc

Wouldnt have changed a thing... 5M$ more is 5 fuckin millions more dollars...


mdlt97

i mean the reports said he would have signed in MTL if they had offered that sooner but he was basically already signed in Dallas by the time he got the offer so i can also guarantee it would have changed a thing if players cared about taxes as much as you think, no one would sign outside of Florida and texas


danarchyy

A little pedantic but Washington, Tennessee and Nevada also have 0% income tax, which makes 6 teams with this benefit.


rekced

This is incorrect at least for North Carolina as it has a ~5% flat income tax.


Dr_Colossus

A fast food employee and a doctor pay the same percent income tax? That seems crazy to me.


Sw2029

Why? It's a percentage of their earnings. The state still gets more money from the doctor. I'm all about flat tax if it means we get rid of the bloat of the tax code.


Dr_Colossus

It's a regressive tax which generally benefits the rich. It's good if you're rich.


ChodeFungus

There's a baseline cost of living that exists that isn't directly proportional to income. Someone making 40k a year is a lot more hurt by paying 2k in taxes than someone making 200k is by paying 10k. A flat tax is unfair to the poor.


pmwedge16

I like the idea of a flat tax with a fairly high minimum. So your first $X is tax free, above that everyone pays the same rate


danarchyy

Oo you’re right. Edited.


mdlt97

i knew it wasnt just the 2 but i did not know Washington had 0% that's interesting, wouldn't have guessed that


sfasdf2141

It's a big advantage Seattle has when "stealing" tech workers from Silicon valley.


I-V-vi-iii

Washington has no income tax and Oregon has no sales tax. Only a couple hours to drive to Portland from Seattle, too.


adultleagueallstar71

Wrong. It explains why so many star players are willing to take discounts in Tampa, Florida and Dallas, but no stars are willing to do that in Canada or New York


mdlt97

Tampa just gave out NMC and NTC to get contracts lower, we know this lol what stars have really taken a discount in tampa or Florida or dallas? bob has 10m, segs and been both are near 10m, neither are 10m or 9m players vasy is the third highest-paid goalie in the nhl, stammer got 8.5 but 5 years ago, kuch got 9.5m its easier to look at it like, the boys on tampa all might have taken 500k less so they could all stay in tampa and win in tampa the guys on the leafs just all wanted the max they could get, didn't matter if it hurt their chances to win


Jabs102501

Doesn't matter so much now


FailedCanadian

Is this accounting for the jock tax? (Paying taxes based on where games are played, meaning a Texas player will only pay 0 income tax on half their games). That significantly reduces the discrepancy between teams. Obviously not applicable this year to the Canadian teams.


Khuba

How does this work for out of state/country teams playing in no income tax states? Do they receive the same benefit since the money was “earned” there? If Detroit played 8 games in Florida this year, 4 games in Tennessee, and 4 games in Texas does that mean they paid no income tax for the 16 games they played between these states? Edit: forgot about Texas


FailedCanadian

Functionally, that's exactly how it works. Jurisdictions put a tax on out-of-area players, and states that have no income tax don't. That's also why it may not be a good idea for players, like say Matthews, to have a large portion of his salary in signing bonuses, since his signing bonuses would be subject to Ontario tax, but weekly salary isn't.


Devils29

Incoming people saying state tax doesn’t matter...


Troy95

Yeah this has to have some weight. It's straight from a player. People just don't want to admit that it gives certain teams a competitive advantage


theguyishere16

Usually its fans of the teams that recieve the competitive advantage that deny its existence. Funny how that works. In the end of the day, for fairness sake teams should be allowed a % overage to account for tax differences. If a $5 million player in Dallas costs over $6 million in California then the cap isnt equal for all teams.


northernpace

Taking in the exchange rate and higher overall personal tax rates up in Canada, I’d presume this whole situation hurts them a lot.


rpgguy_1o1

Canadian team salaries are in USD, it's worse for them now that the dollar is as close as it's been in five years


justmikethen

I know what you mean, but the more on par the dollar is the better it is for Canadian teams.


SickOffYourMudPie

better for teams, worse for players.


pmwedge16

The problem is where does it stop? Do you also let NYC and LA go some % over because the cost of living is higher there than in the Midwest?


ATWiggin

Absolutely not. Because major metropolitan centers have other things going for them that attract young, rich athletes than tax benefits. It doesn't matter if you're taxed out the ass when you live in Manhattan and are a short cab ride from world class entertainment and night life. Not to mention working opportunities for their significant others. Breadman took less money and term to play for us than Columbus because he wanted to be in the Big Apple and his model girlfriend (now wife) could get gigs easier. Trouba signed with us because he wanted his medical student wife to get easier placements in hospitals in NYC. Doesn't matter what the tax rate is in the Big Apple. People will always want to be here.


pmwedge16

And California has advantages that Winnipeg doesn’t, even if you take taxes out of it My point is that no matter what you change, there’ll always be inequalities with a hard cap because every city/state isn’t the same Edit: plus look at Nashville and Duchene with the whole country music thing, or Montreal/Toronto and local players. Every city has things that some people like and other people don’t, and state taxes and housing costs are just a small part of that


ATWiggin

As long as everyone recognizes that living in a low-tax state IS an advantage. The same way that living in a major metropolitan center is. The same way that living in sunny California instead of fucking Manitoba is. It absolutely is an advantage and people denying that it is are putting their heads in the sand.


pmwedge16

I agree, I just don’t think it’s worth fucking with the hard salary cap to “fix”, when there are so many other factors at play


Iogjam

For the most part I agree but I also agree that it sucks: you can say NYR has the advantage of stuff to do while Florida has the advantage of low tax, Toronto/MTL have the advantage of big fan-crazy markets and you can make the argument for a few others. It just puts places like Winnipeg at an extreme disadvantage because they don’t have attractions, the weather, the tax advantage or literally any reason to ever want to be there. Also Columbus.


pmwedge16

Yeah. Some cities are less attractive to live in/play in. But if you fix the tax issue so that no matter what team a player is on, he gets the exact same take home pay (which is way more complex than just "state taxes", because you're taxed based on residence and citizenship and the jock tax and being married/single and a million other things), that will still be the case Even if you do all that and give Columbus and Winnipeg (to use your example) an extra $5M each to go over the cap, so the first two years they each overpay 1-2 free agents by $2Mish, with term, and now that cap space is gone, and they'll never be able to trade those players for any sort of real value because everyone knows they're overpaid. Not to mention how totally screwed they are if one of those turns out to be an albatross like Ladd/Lucic/Bobrovsky So ~3 years down the line, nothing will have changed because those teams won't have the cap space any more and they still won't be anyone's first choice. That's without getting into the fact that raising the cap for some teams means lowering it for the rest, or increasing escrow (to keep a 50-50 split of HRR)


anth2099

The cap isn't about fairness it's about cost certainty.


TGUKF

It does matter, but fans have it backwards. It's players like Methot who are the mid-tier getting paid 4-5 million a year but purely in base salary who the tax difference matters to most. It matters much less to the highest tier of UFAs/players who can command 95% of their contract value be paid out as signing bonuses in the off-season when they can potentially claim their tax residency as a more tax friendly location. But r/hockey acts like it's the players in this tier who care most about the tax difference. There's zero chance someone like Matthews is paying Ontario tax on his 15 million a year signing bonuses. He probably only pays Arizona taxes (aka just federal income tax) on that already


Trader_Jim

Do you have anything to back this up? I am genuinely curious, as you can't just pick and choose where your residence is for tax purposes as you have to actually live in that location/country for 183 days a year (I think) or some other tangible metric such as "substantial ties" to that location, which may be as simple as owning a home and other assets there and spending a certain amount of time there. It might not be as difficult as I initially thought, so your assumption seems more plausible than I ever realized. I am not an accountant so I really am not claiming to know; would be amazing if someone who did actually know commented on this.


Iogjam

> or some other tangible metric such as "substantial ties" to that location Matthews has Arizona Coyotes jammies that he’s saving for a future tweet. no but legit Matthews has a house, a family and several charges filed in Arizona


TGUKF

Most players don't live in their NHL city year round. So in a sense, players can pick and choose where their tax residence is, but not everyone is going to pick where they live in the off-season based solely on tax purposes, and obviously they have to make sure they qualify to claim their off-season home as their tax residence as you point out. The point is if a player is paid a portion of their contract value in signing bonuses, then there may be way to pass less tax on that amount. And for guys who are being paid almost entirely in signing bonus, there's significant incentive to figure out how to lower their tax burden as much as possible. It may not always be possible, but I guarantee that NHLers are doing it wherever possible. Obviously guys who are paid only in base salary are bound to paying taxes on their income based on where the games are played, so then which team you play for does make a massive difference, as Methot points out here. Like guys who get paid out on LTIR will move to Florida while they're still getting paid for tax purposes (Callahan and MacArthur both said they did this in an article by The Athletic)


JackieTheJokeMan

Hmm that could be a great way for Canadian teams to compete then I guess. Pay them in bonuses and have them report it wherever they live. Could even be like Canadas tennis stars and maintain residency in Monaco. It would be a big tax loss for the provinces though.


topinfrassi01

There was this interesting article about the Tavares signature regarding the ways players pay less taxes : https://www.forbes.com/sites/seanpackard/2018/07/06/john-tavares-could-save-nearly-12-million-in-taxes-on-his-new-contract/?sh=f59487f1ab7c


Kbgears

Anyone saying that is dumb so many Canadian players have all 7 Canadian teams in their no trade clause specifically for taxes


treple13

Within the last 10 years, Alberta NHLers had lower overall tax rates than the "no tax states". Honestly didn't seem to help us that much.


Kbgears

I didn’t know that. That’s crazy alberta teams don’t get more free agents especially considering mcdavid is playing in the province and Calgary has a potentially great core in place already


Jswarez

That was over 6-7years ago or so. Locally alberta raised rates, Trudeau raised top rates, Trump lowered. Alberta would be middle of pack now.


treple13

Our provincial tax went up when the NDP came to power (a good thing imo) so we're probably around middle of the pack right now.


JackieTheJokeMan

Our top tax rate is now 15% if you make over 315k. Right back to where it was when we apparently had the lowest combined income tax rate in North America. However with Trudeau in charge I'm not sure how we match up.


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sasksasquatch

Does Alberta still have a flat tax rate?


BM19891989

No it’s tiered now, NDP put in escalating tax brackets when elected in 2015.


goodkidMAADbitches

it 100% matters so does spending power for staff, facilities, etc (ex: toronto literally poached babcock away from DETROIT by throwing money at him) the teams that are most fucked are those with state tax in small to med markets


Gengreat_the_Gar

Yay us lol


Serious-Guava

Toronto also got in trouble for letting players use their facilities and other NHL teams complained they couldn't afford to operate their facilities so Toronto shouldn't be able to. Toronto also got in trouble for hiring an actual NHL ref to ref a scrimmage because again, other teams couldn't afford to hire an NHL ref for their scrimmages. Toronto gets shit on for spending money all the time by the NHL but the NHL looks the other way for things like tax implications on the cap


goodkidMAADbitches

toronto regularly has one of the largest scouting staffs toronto regularly has the highest paid trainers i was giving just one off examples, money is a gigantic advantage. imo, just as big as being a med market team with tax advantage.


Serious-Guava

Fair enough and I was giving examples of when we get in trouble for using our cash even though it should be allowed.


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Hofular1988

He didn’t say he did. He just says it sucks even harder for the smaller markets with state tax


ebjoker4

Helloooooo San Jose.


Hockeystyle

Cup winning team | Income Tax? ---|--- 2020 Tampa Bay Lightning | No 2019 St. Louis Blues | Yes 2018 Washington Capitals | Yes 2017 Pittsburgh Penguins | Yes 2016 Pittsburgh Penguins | Yes 2015 Chicago Blackhawks | Yes 2014 Los Angeles Kings | Yes 2013 Chicago Blackhawks | Yes 2012 Los Angeles Kings | Yes 2011 Boston Bruins | Yes 2010 Chicago Blackhawks | Yes 2009 Pittsburgh Penguins | Yes 2008 Detroit Red Wings | Yes 2007 Anaheim Ducks | Yes 2006 Carolina Hurricanes | Yes Every Western Conference Finals winner with the exception of 2018 Vegas and 2020 Dallas has an income tax since 2005. Every Eastern Conference Finals winner with the exception of the 2020 and 2015 Tampa Bay Lightning has an income tax since 2005. Lack of an income tax is an advantage but not a very significant one. One reason it's hard to take advantage of is because star players in this league don't move around very frequently, so it's not used to its greatest extent. Another reason is because to take advantage of signing players for cheaper means you have to have an organization players want to be in and have good players worth signing. Essentially you have to be a good team before you can even begin to benefit from a lack of an income tax in a cup contending sense, where you're facing salary cap pressure that is making it hard to keep a good squad together.


roboninja

As Yes/No answer for income tax is pretty useless in context.


Devils29

IIRC Canadian teams have a much higher local tax for athletes, so the correct version of this statement should be a comparison of winning from highest to lowest local taxes


relapsze

I'm literally bookmarking this so I can save it for future arguments because that line of thinking is parroted SOOO much around here.


MakeTheNetsBigger

BuT oTtAwA hAs LoWeR cOsT oF lIvInG!!!! (Heard this argument so many times as if millionaires spend most of their income on basic living expenses.)


MOLightningBro

Incoming people saying he saved $1.4M only because of a lack of state income tax. It obviously makes a difference, but it’s far more likely the biggest chunk of that difference is due to federal taxes and the ways wealthy people in the US can avoid their full tax burden. Would be far better if Methot also played in another US market that had state income tax.


drupgrayedd

of course a bolts fan thinks the difference is not real


MOLightningBro

Where did I say the difference is not real? I said there is more to it than just state tax. He also changed what country he was being taxed by. This site sucks for any sort of discussion when flairs are involved. [Another person who would know a lot about the differences in taxation between different markets is Allan Walsh](https://twitter.com/walsha/status/1307480088800182272?s=21)... but are you going to discount his opinion because his largest client is in a no-state tax market?


SickOffYourMudPie

RCAs are tax deferral not tax avoidance. An **agent** doesnt make their % on after tax income lmao - they don’t have to give a shit what a player makes - whoever offers the highest number (plus endorsements etc I suppose) is best, always.


MOLightningBro

I know the agent doesn’t make their cut based on tax burden, but you don’t think they need to know about it to provide their clients the best information? > RCAs are tax deferral not tax avoidance [This seems to say otherwise](https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/documents/111482/111502/RCA%27s+for+athletes.pdf/02e9dda9-fe45-4241-8033-e2c516409745)


SickOffYourMudPie

... you’re suggesting that an agent would give up their own money in order to help their clients that are already wealthier? I didn’t say he wouldn’t know about it, I’m saying that if a Canadian team offers $10m and Tampa offers $9.99m he makes more money if his player signs in Canada. Aka - of course he would **say** that it doesn’t matter. ...did you read that? Because it does not say otherwise lmao.


MOLightningBro

It is deferral AND avoidance. It significantly lowers the tax burden. As for the agent comment, an agent isn’t going to convince their client to sign a higher value contract just because it makes the agent more money. The long business relationship is far more valuable than a slightly larger payday on one contract.


SickOffYourMudPie

Well I mean of course it’s deferral and avoidance in the sense that literally all tax deferral is for the purpose of withdrawing at a lower tax rate at a later date otherwise - why would you defer lmao? You also have half your money earning $0 interest. A slightly larger payday? A high end FA is going to make $8-10M less in a low tax state in nominal dollars on a single contract, conservatively speaking. Even 1% of that is giving up $100K.


LukaTAG

Don't mind him. He's a (mostly?) drunk leafs troll.


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Funkyfreshprince

I wish we had the 1031 exchange over here in Canada. While its not 'avoiding' tax and just deferring it, it would change everything over here.


robertito42

Do you take steps to minimize your tax burden?


MOLightningBro

Yes, but I'm not sure how that applies to this conversation?


OutsideMembership

This is the very first time I've seen an actual player acknowledge this. Thanks for sharing.


Funkyfreshprince

I thought I'd post this as I see this debate happening all the time on this subreddit. Many think its an issue, but A LOT of people think its irrelevant. When Marc Methot was exposed in the expansion draft, he was then traded to Dallas from Vegas(Ottawa). In his two years in Dallas, he saved $1.4 Million compared to had he stayed in Ontario, Canada. Thats a huge amount of change. Marc Methot was making $4.9 Million dollars a year, no signing bonuses. Thats insane. For him to save 1.4 million, that is definitely a huge advantage no matter how you look at it.


SickOffYourMudPie

You’ll never change anyone’s mind. The fact that all 7 Canadian teams are on every single no trade list is pure coindence according to them. If you can’t save taxes playing in a no-tax state you should fire your accountant.


maxwellbevan

Which I do find odd because these guys are paid in USD. Yeah maybe you're paying more in taxes but you're living in Canada where the dollar is significantly weaker. 1 million USD is about the equivalent of 1.2 million Canadian. There are pros and cons to playing in every NHL city.


SickOffYourMudPie

Stuff costs more in Canada... usually around 20%. Dollars don’t really go any further.


Konker101

That 1.4 helps when hes gotta replace his garage door lmao


BuddahCall1

You get paid based off of what city/state the game was played in, right? So yeah, Vegas has no tax, but you play a shitload of games in California which DOES have quite a high tax. So, at some point it tends to even out a bit, wouldn't it?


Radagastdl

And thats only the actual pay, not the signing bonus. Signing bonuses can be claimed to a residental address, so Matthews pays Arizona taxes instead of Canada taxes on the majority of his contract


RustyNipples35

I think one of the biggest problems that comes with fixing an issue like this is identifying a fair fix to it. Does every team get to have a different salary cap based on taxes? Especially as taxation rates can fluctuate. Then what’s stopping from accounting for cost of living? What about promotion money/opportunity? Etc etc I know some will see it as rich coming from a Nashville fan, but I don’t think there is a true “fair” way to go about resolving this


TwoForHawat

There’s nothing to be fixed. They shouldn’t do anything to try to address it. Every market has certain factors that give them an advantage when it comes to getting guys to sign contracts, and every market has factors that work as a disadvantage. State income tax is just one of them. And we haven’t seen scenarios where no-state-tax teams by and large get to dominate the teams with higher taxes. Trying to fix something that’s *barely* broken is only going to ultimately result in a system that is even worse.


AssBoon92

This, basically. "Fixing" this also comes with the inherent assumption that everyone cares most about money.


FroVice

This is a new topic to me, but my 2 cents (or 3cents if I was from Dallas) is that income tax would be a reasonable start. Cost of living is negligible when you're making 3million a year. Like cost of living is probably a difference of 10grand from NYC to Dallas. I'm not sure about property tax but I think it's similar. I think property taxes range from like .5% to 2%. It's really not much for players making millions, with houses that probably are valued around a million or two max. For the average person it's closer cause they make say 100k and house could be 500k. Income tax of 0% in Texas vs like 5-12% in other areas is significant. I have no idea how you write the rules, but imo it should account for state income tax. I had never thought about the impact of different tax rates before now, really interesting.


Shadeslayer268

Each team having a variable cap based on income tax in their area is absolutely more fair than the current system. Who's the last massive free agent to actually sign with a Canadian team who doesn't have a childhood photo in that teams pyjamas? Not being able to attract free agents is a huge reason why Canada hasn't won since 93


hesperidisabitch

It's a contributing factor sure, but the American market also has much more desirable cities to live in as well. Better weather, better amenities, easier travel schedule etc.


nascar991134

And fans generally not berating you in public. Pretty sure Pat Maroon said on Chiclets that in Edmonton, even older people would come up to him and start talking about the power play and what he and the team needed to do lmao.


iwantsalmon2015

Maybe the easiest way to do it is to have a cap hit in terms of salary after taxes.


Serious-Guava

What if the player maximizes their RRSP?


iOnlyWantUgone

Then they're really bad with their money.


Serious-Guava

Wait, why is maximizing my RRSP bad? Shouldn't I want to decrease my taxable income?


iOnlyWantUgone

*You* probably should pay your max RRSPs. But these players are making millions of dollars and would be better off putting their money into stocks or hedge funds directly as most of their money isn't needed for daily expenses. For players that play in Canada there's other options like Retirement Compensation Agreements where they defer paying taxes and play a flat 20% on their earnings. Rich people got more options than the rest of us.


TwoForHawat

The cap is directly tied to the players’ share of hockey-related revenue. If you base the cap on net salary rather than gross, then you’re basically asking the owners to give away money to pay for players’ taxes. That’s clearly absurd.


treple13

Just to present another opinion, here's [Agent Allan Walsh's take](https://twitter.com/walsha/status/1307480088800182272?lang=en)


SickOffYourMudPie

An RCA means putting your money away and not spending it. Tax **deferral** not tax avoidance.


WayneGretzky99

When they retire and move out of Canada they can withdraw the money from the RCA and only pay 15-25%. It's deferred and avoided. But hearing half of NHL players talk about escrow as money gone and lost forever I'm not surprised that even NHLers don't bother to use a good accountant.


SickOffYourMudPie

Yea and until they withdraw it half of whatever they put in there earns zero interest. If we’re talking about taking your nominal salary and turning it into the most cash in your pocket - the US will always offer a significant advantage.


treple13

I have no idea of things, but [this seems to back up what Walsh says](https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/documents/111482/111502/RCA%27s+for+athletes.pdf/02e9dda9-fe45-4241-8033-e2c516409745#:~:text=A%20NHL%20player%20on%20a,only%2015%2D25%25.)


SickOffYourMudPie

Well it’s *kind of* like an RRSP except it recognizes that pro athletes careers are much shorter and they much higher paid. But it’s different in that half the money can’t even be invested to earn income. It’s literally just sticking money in an account and having it sit for decades.


pak256

Bolts fan here. It no secret that part of the reason Tampa had signed so many cap friendly deals is the lack of income tax. Not sure what the solution is but something equitable could be done


[deleted]

Marc will show you his tax saving methots.


Weigard

He can also pay to put his kids through private school, doesn’t have to worry about anything, and can up and move anywhere he wants. So yeah, he’s in a great place to gripe about state income tax while being shielded from the problems not having one creates.


no_sense_of_humour

Don't states with no income tax typically charge much higher property taxes? So if Methot is a homeowner in Texas he might pay 1.4m less in income tax but the real savings over living in California is probably not actually that much. I'm sure it is better overall though. People are moving to Texas in droves.


c71score

Texas and the Metroplex is known for high property taxes. Nevada/Vegas gets their taxes from the obvious. Tennessee has high sales taxes(including food). Washington state has high sales tax, but not on groceries(but taxes "prepared" foods and sugar drinks). IIRC, Florida gets much of it's tax from tourism.


treple13

Sales tax also is a factor and low tax states mostly have higher sales taxes


Trader_Jim

All states have their pros and cons but generally you can compare states (and provinces) based on "tax burden" which is a generalized metric that takes property, state income and sales taxes into account: [https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494](https://wallethub.com/edu/states-with-highest-lowest-tax-burden/20494) With regards to Tax Burden, Tennessee is actually the best state in USA besides Alaska; Texas is 20th least taxed state based on the above link's metric. NHL players making mega salaries are probably outliers where income tax should likely be more heavily weighted but you get the point.


nawkuh

Does he have the kind of property you pay 700k/yr in property taxes on?


harshbirbrar

Property tax difference can be a max for 1.5% afaik. on a $2M home that's a whopping $30k


ATWiggin

Yeah, that tracks. Using [Capfriendly's income tax calculator for Esa Lindell](https://www.capfriendly.com/income-tax-calculator/esa-lindell), someone who has a similar salary (4.8m instead of 4.9m), he'd save 1.35million dollars over 2 years vs if he had played for the Sens instead. This calculator is location estimated and accounts of the location of each team for each day of the season in order to apply local tax rates where necessary. Lower tax states definitely have an advantage in attracting players.


RedWingsNow

If we're going to have a salary cap, we need to account for tax structures. But it will NEVER happen. Because the salary cap was never about fairness or parity. It was about money.


OneLessFool

Clearly we are not taxing the rich enough across the board


Kenner1979

...yay?


Dontyouclimbtrees

…nay


Hooker_with_a_weenus

As someone not from the USA (socialist Canadian here), it’s always strange to see people bragging about how little taxes they pay. To me it sounds like “look at me, I don’t want to help improve my country/state and I don’t want to help anyone else except myself.” Especially coming from someone who makes a ridiculous amount of money.


JackieTheJokeMan

I mean even left wing politicians here in canada will claim in their speeches that they're lowering the tax rate for all but the complete upper crust. Lower taxes is a big draw for peoples vote.


Starship_Coyote

Sounds to me like the United States has a problem when it comes to the wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes. Not that that's a surprise to anyone.


earlgonefishn

The entire world does according to the Panama Papers.


adultleagueallstar71

Ya this is why the masses have been moving to Texas and Florida. It’s the last places that aren’t embracing socialism at this point


being_inappropriate

I know I’m not in a position to say (cuz I’m not a millionaire athlete). But bragging about paying less taxes when you’re a millionaire getting payed to play a sport makes me cringe.


tippy432

At what point is it bragging? information is educational it’s great to know actual tax rates like this to help people of all incomes make informed decisions


RiskyViziness

That’s cool. But how many games did you play?


robertito42

Agents have spreadsheets with all of this information plugged in already.