> What is it about so many people that participate in shooting sports and such being so anti-poor?
Sometimes it is about trying to prevent someone throwing thier money away on things that will either fail quickly or underperform compared to whatever is seen as the default option to make it a bad buy.
Sometimes it is just regular ass classism.
Both are true. You get a lot of people that have next to no experience but I have extremely strong opinions about specific firearms. I often carry a Beretta 92 and over the years I’ve had a few people here share fifth hand anecdotes about their uncle who was a clerk in the Air Force that said the M9 was garbage. On the other hand you have the idiots screeching that Tarus is just as good when it’s a firearm you’re going to own for decades who cares if you spend an extra hundred dollars on a product that doesn’t have a long history of failures.
I do understand the hate from some US service members who got stuck with them toward the end of their service life but it’s always confused me why they couldn’t connect the gun being old and shot to death with the gun not running right. Similarly I’ve heard horror stories of National Guard members being sent to Iraq with clapped out M16’s, an individual rifle not being maintained does not mean the rifle itself wasn’t once a good rifle.
I can tell you first hand. The m9 to this day 30 years later and many, many, many guns later is the only weapon that fell apart on me. 1st round. I'll take my 40 yo mix master 1911 over it any day.
I’m calling bullshit unless it was an old beaten to death M9. US Armed Forces get those pistols dirty, they never rebuild them shot a lot of them well past their service life.
Service M9s all over the place. From new ones that worked well. To ones that were ready to fall apart in your hands. Personally not a fan of the M9. But it's more than adequate service weapon.
My biggest grip is the safety is dumb. But not unmanageable. And the grip is wide which can cause issues qualling for some people. When I was still dealing with M9s and in charge of training big navy personnel to qual. We would often switch out M9s for M11s/P228s that we had for pilots for smaller hand shooters like females to qual.
It's the shitty thing about service weapons. Outside of high speed units. And even at those its not perfect you don't know what you are getting in terms of a weapon in terms of quality
There was testing to see how M4A1s were doing with M855A1. Well they found bolt life is around 17k with a new gun. But the interesting part was they tested rebuilds also. So a gun that was sent for maintenance and then gauged and tested. Well those were all over the place. You had bolts failing at as little as 3k rounds. But that bolt passed inspection.
So if someone says their gun sucked. Probably true. But that doesn't mean the design does.
Oh they are reliable as pistols go. It's abysmal start was probably due to production. Being rushed to service and such. Plus it fixed a problem that didn't exist as the 1911s were easy to maintain and the supply chain for parts and repairs was still viable.
As often quoted a pistol is only good for getting the rifle you shouldn't have lost
You also get the guys who look for ways to rationalize being an asshole. They like to tell themselves that "bullying works." Anyone who's ever had to learn something difficult could tell you that being a dick about it just makes it harder to learn.
Of course you get the guys who are both arrogant and ignorant, spewing nonsense at every opportunity. Those guys can get all the bullying for all I care.
But you have people who are genuinely interested in guns and just learning. There's no good reason to be dicks to those people. That's how the community grows
In this day and age we need every 2A supporter we can get. I think a lot of people conveniently forget that there was once a first time they laid hands on a gun. It can be confusing and even nerve wracking for someone with no background whatsoever. There's bound to be "stupid" questions, but it's much safer for everyone if those "stupid" questions get asked and answered.
It makes no sense to save $100 when buying a gun. Over gun's lifetime this difference is negligible, especially compared to price of ammo over the same period.
For what it’s worth, that would affect the top and bottom of the market drastically different. For example, a $4000 NIB 70s Python might sell for like $2400, but a Glock 17 will still be a $500 gun.
Ummm....starting to happen now. In general most guns are cheaper now than at height of Pandemic and looting/ rioting.
Not the highe end, hard to find ones. The everyday ones. A lot of manufacturers either just had or are still running rebates.
Good models from a reputable manufacturer will last 100 years with minimal maintenance.
Unreputable manufacturers have track records of making unreliable guns out of the box.
If you can save $50 a month for a year you can buy a reliable AR, hunting rifle, duty pistol, concealable pistol or pump shotgun.
I think someone on a budget is better off buying one reliable gun a year than buying something that doesn't work. In 5-10 years they'll probably own every gun they want.
If someone only owed budget guns such as,
* 10/22
* M&P AR-15
* Maverick 88
* Savage Axis
* Glock 19
I would think they made good choices with their limited budget.
Brands like SCCY, Taurus, Turkish semi auto shotguns and Promags earned their bad reputation.
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You bought a Taurus, didn't you?
EDIT: [checks post history] Wait, is this about your Maverick? That thing gets recommended in like 90% of all posts asking for help choosing a shotgun. When people on a strict budget are getting seduced by shitty Turkish gun marketing, the folks here are more likely to say "spend less and get a reliable Maverick" than "pay twice as much for a high-end gun."
Every time I see something like this come up it's because someone bought a really low quality gun or accessory and they don't like being told they made a mistake.
It isn't *actually* elitism; there is often a superior option within the same price range. But the perception people have is that "I bought something cheap -> people are telling me it's bad -> therefore they hate it purely because it's cheap -> therefore they hate poor people" and that logic is deeply flawed. It's an emotional reaction to people defending their purchase because they don't like being told they may have made a mistake.
At the end of the day though, shooting isn't really a cheap hobby and there *are* situations where you simply have to spend the money if you want a decent option. When someone wants to buy a scope for their rifle and people tell them not to buy the $20 one on Amazon, that isn't being elitist either. The reality is that there are a lot of sub-par products on the market that aren't actually suitable for use on guns and sometimes, yes, you're gonna have to spend several times your budget if you want something functional and reliable, so you might just not be able to afford it.
Thats not unique to the firearms scene, that's just life. Sometimes there isn't a cheaper alternative and while that does suck for people who can't afford it, that's just the world we live in.
Most of the 'poors' comments are joking.
The only time it turns serious is when somebody buys cheap junk and then defends it stupidly. It is only in part "what" was bought.
There's good cheap options, those don't get made fun of.
My shtf gun is a no name Turkish bullpup. I’ve got one 5 round mag and can’t source more but it looks scary so that’s good enough. No I’ve never shot it, why do you ask?
I couldn't find the comment, but somebody was literally suggesting one of those or something like it for HD.
Might have been a KSG though...
Edit: [Could be worse](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/zo0l69/comment/j0kwhxu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
I have one of those Turkish no name bullpup semi autos. It's fun as hell, and a great way to cap off a range trip for a first timer with no gun experience. It's run a few dozen boxes of shells, no issues.
If I ever call it my shtf gun it's safe to assume I've been body snatched.
The thing about those shotguns is they tend to shoot themselves apart so if you have one just for fun you do you buy otherwise they are a poor investment.
A lot of cheap guns are poor quality or make significant compromises. Hi points are generally functional but not "just as good" as a gently used Glock or something
Several reasons. There are some gun's that just are not very good in terms of quality and reliability, and sometimes it really is just someone trying to prevent another from making mistakes they have already made.
Sometimes it's someone making themselves feel good, justifying their purchase by making someone else feel bad about their less expensive purchase. Some people only get satisfaction from owning a top tier gun by telling others they own that gun.
You also have the ones that believe that the kit makes the operator. And that because they own a $10,000 set up they are official "door kickers", capable of holding off the federal government single-handedly as the world trembles in fear at their KAC15 and ceramic plates.
But don't be fooled, credit card debt is where a significant portion of what you see comes from.
I think the “poors” who most people have a problem with are people who buy low quality firearms, and when it’s pointed out to them, they get defensive and claim it’s just as good instead of being willing to learn and possibly admit that they made a mistake. Or better yet, ask for advice before making the purchase. Just an example of anchoring fallacy.
In general, I also think that most don’t like to see people try to cheap out on things that are supposed to be life saving devices; yes there are ways to save money but there’s still a minimum you have to spend to get something reliable and decent, and it’s usually not that much more than what people spend to get something cheaper and unreliable.
When I was much younger (poor), I bought a Jennings 22. Calling it garbage is a compliment. After a particularly frustrating shooting day, I threw it in an old tool box without cleaning it and forgot about it.
7 years later I got it out and stripped it and cleaned it with the detail of a crank fiend. It is now the butteriest smooth plinker ever. Over 1000 rounds without a jam or stovepipe.
I am NOT defending this gun — still garbage — but your comment reminded me of this little anecdote so I thought I’d share.
The thing about those cheap, lower quality guns is this: it’s not impossible to get a good one, it might even be that a lot of them are ok, but in general, the lower price means the have to skimp on some things and quality control is generally the first and most heavily effected by that. So your chance of getting one that doesn’t function properly is a lot higher than with more expensive or more reputable brands, and when you’re talking about your life, it doesn’t make sense to take that risk.
A .22lr for plinking that’s never going to see any use outside of the range isn’t a big deal to cheap out on; .22lr isn’t reliable enough for defensive use anyway in my view. But a carry/potential home defense gun or even a hunting gun is a lot different to my mind.
At the very least, anyone who buys a lower quality weapon should use the money they saved by buying it to put it through its paces at the range enough to ensure that it functions reliably and will do so if needed, but at that point it seems like you’d be better off having spent the money on a reliable weapon from word go; of course you have to verify function there too but to a lesser degree in my personal opinion. As an example, I’d be comfortable with a Glock’s reliability with 100 rounds through it to verify proper function but I’d have to put at least 1k through a Taurus before I personally trusted it. Of course that’s just one man’s opinion.
My father gave me a Jennings tossed it in a shoe box after it jammed for the 3000th time
Picked it back up 2 years later as it's so corroded its almost not recognizable lol
I think you'll need to be a lot more specific in what you're talking about
Way too often people come in here asking us to rationalize their ill-advised purchases, for example "here's my Taurus G3C, I paid $250, [YouTube influencer/magazine] said it's just as good as a Glock 19, did I do good??"
And then will get belligerent when it's mentioned that Taurus has a terrible track record for product safety, reliability, durability, customer service, etc etc. "You just hate me because I don't have the budget for anything more than that!" is a pretty common thread in such situations
So when you say elitist gun owners hate poor people.... no. We mostly hate to see people waste their money on garbage when marginally more money can be spent on any number of products which are superior in literally every other aspect other than bottom dollar
the classic " does anyone have any real world experience with IO AKs, Im not talking about anything you read on the internet or saw in some stupid YouTube video either"
Just FYI Ive seen this statement about various shit tier hand grenade American AKs, usually IO or Centuries nearly verbatim on multiple occasions over the years.
Its usually someone that just bought one, THEN reads all the crappy reviews on them and still for whatever reason feels like they have to come and justify their purchase to a bunch of strangers on the internet.
No we dont, dumbass, because we don't need to have first hand experience to know somethings garbage with overwhelming and near universal evidence that supports it.
> " does anyone have any real world experience with IO AKs, Im not talking about anything you read on the internet or saw in some stupid YouTube video either"
Ah, yes. The old "I feel superior because I refuse to base my conclusions on anything but anecdotes" strategy.
I think you're just being a Glock femboy that hates anything that more than $350. Nothing wrong with my Taurus G3 with spare promag clip and NcStar laser/light, hasn't failed me yet and I've shot 300 rounds through it no issues.
Sounds about right! And usually "300 rounds" means "my fingers get tired loading the magazine so often but it was like, hundreds of bullets bro."
And also "no issues" translates to "multiple stovepipes and other failures to feed but that's just the break-in period"
To be fair, my department issued Glock 22 had a few stovepipes in the first few hundred rounds during break in. No other issues in the last 17 years though.
In b4 "40 cal joke"
I think the major difference there is you actually acknowledged there was an issue, that the issue did not get worse from then on, and that Glock does not have a track record of "yep you gotta send 2k down the pipe and send it back to the factory 2-3 times before it'll run ok"
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I mean, there was a user here last week posting about how his brand-new Taurus couldn't shoot straight. Every single bullet was impacting sideways on paper. Turns out the factory didn't even cut rifling in the barrel and at no point in the manufacturing process was this noticed, or addressed.
But yeah "Taurus is better now, all the problems were from years ago" is a line I have been hearing over and over again for the past decade
You may be mistaking what you call anti-poor for people telling you not to buy garbage firearms. Most people here will tell a new gun owner to buy good budget friendly firearms. you can get a perfectly good Mossberg pump shotgun for $300, lots of good handguns for around $500 and there’s plenty of trustworthy AR’s around $500-$700. Thing is there’s a lot of garbage on the market and often times when we tell people that their choice of firearm is a bad one and try to steer them away from it they call us elitist when really we know that gun is garbage either through multiple reviews here or personal experience.
I currently own two dozen firearms and only one that retailed for over $1,000 when it was new. Almost every gun in my collection is so reliable that it’s boring and I trust almost all of them with my life. That said there’s no real garbage in my collection either. No shitty American made AK, no crappy handguns, no Turkish shotguns. Turkish shotguns are a common problem here were people accuse us of being elitist when they could’ve spent the same money or less on a good Mossberg, Winchester, used Browning or old used Remington and got a far more trustworthy firearm. The vast majority of turkey shotguns do not work and no amount of fucking with them will get them to work. It’s the same deal with handguns, is quite a few garbage manufactures out there when you could pick up a trust worthy used Glock, Smith and Wesson and often times a new Ruger or Canik for the same price as a garbage pistol.
Now we move onto the AR platform, you can buy or build a perfectly good rifle under $700 no problem and can often spend less. But we get newbies who buy rifles from shit companies like bear creek arsenal or radical and don’t understand that they bought bottom tier parts and probably didn’t save any money over some thing that will last longer and be more trustworthy. It’s even worse when they buy parts from no-name companies slapping together the lowest grade parts and throwing on knock off Chinese rails and hand guards
that look fancy.
So yes there’s tons of good guns out there that you can get on a budget and that will last a literal lifetime an offer almost exactly the same reliability as something that cost several times more. But there’s a lot of garbage around that price range as well so ask us before you buy.
Also depends a lot where you live.
In Canada there aren't a lot of budget friendly options unless you want a 22lr or bolt action. You can either buy a bottom tier semi auto ar180 for $1500cad that will literally fall apart in under a thousand rounds, or spend $2.5k-$5k on something reliable.
This means most people end up buying cheap shit and a lot of others get snobby with their expensive gear.
> Turkish shotguns are a common problem here were people accuse us of being elitist when they could’ve spent the same money or less on a good Mossberg, Winchester, used Browning or old used Remington and got a far more trustworthy firearm.
But the Eaglefucker Armory Patriot Tactical SUX-12sd costs the same amount and has more *features.*
I’m the opposite! I own dozens of high priced guns that suck! The ‘eliteism’ goes both ways, there is (possibly) equally as much *over*priced garbage that isn’t worth buying either.
That’s fair, hell the only gun I own that would’ve gotten me killed is my Benelli M2. I don’t know how but the magazine endcap decided to loosen or shear off and fly down range one time, I know it wasn’t operator error because I’m methodical when I clean and reassemble guns. It’s perfect now that I installed a Nordic components +3 tube and some thread locker just for good measure.
If you use the phrase “just as good” you deserved to get clowned on. If you asked dumb questions that are usually answered in easily found threads that are saved for that exact reason, you deserved to get clowned on
Most people don’t want to hear that what they spent their money on is shit. They worked hard for that money and the idea that it was wasted gets taken as an insult. Also sarcasm doesn’t translate well to type
Most gun laws in every single state are "Anti Poor," as opposed to being pro mental health, pro safety and common sense. Like the saying goes, if the punishment for breaking a law is financial then the law is for the poor alone.
I haven't ever encountered anything consciously anti poor, but in the long range shooting community there seems to be an inability to understand budgets and an undue focus on status symbols, particularly when it comes to optics. I just assume some people make a lot of money and dont have families to support or any other hobbies lol.
Never seen someone be a dick about anyone's income though. Just a kind of general cluelessness.
In lots of communities, groups, or hobbies there’s a failure to understand a point of diminishing returns too. Like yes, a $900 gun is likely magnitudes better than a $300 one. But a $3,000 gun is not the same magnitude better than the $900 gun is to the $300.
Clay shooters are like this too. Someone asks what a good beginner gun is and you get a ton of “perazzi” and “kolar” type answers, saying they should cry once and buy once over the 8-15k gun. Seriously no better way for the fucking sport to die than for that to be the entry point.
For sure, and as someone else pointed out theres diminishing returns on this stuff too. Like, I have a hard time believing an 8k gun is 8x better than a 1k gun. Youre paying for the name and prestige at that point.
1. Some guns that are cheap are bad
2. People are assholes
In general stay away from the ultra cheap stuff like hi-point pistols, truglo optics, and turkshit shotguns. But don’t let people shit on your for buying budget stuff, like PSA, Holosun, and other stuff like that.
The budget stuff is rarely going to be a problem. And if it is, they usually have good return/warranty policies.
Imma try a different perspective. Ready the downvotes from a fellow "poor"
Guns are an expensive hobby. While "poors" is seen as a joke it has pros and cons. It's a product of the consumerism that runs rampant in gun culture.
Pros: buy quality firearm and accessories, likely to have a more reliable firearm
Cons: inside joke of looking down on folks who have basic guns.
There's the notice that you shouldn't have a gun with an optic that's more expensive than your gun, but an M&P sport or Ruger will do more than 90% of the job. You want a kac, Pws, or even a radian, sure, but if you're just hitting paper and steel they do the same thing with a few new added features that "could" hello. But if you don't have the basics down and know how you are as a shooter it won't have much value. Get a Romeo 5 red dot for $100 or pay $80 more for a cooler looking one. You DON'T NEED AN EOTECH, AIMPOINT, ACOG, etc. You want one for a rare chance of you're life being in danger (depends on many factors so you decide) your Holosun will do more than enough. If you wish to invest more money go ahead they won't fail you (as much but can). They will definitely be more reliable and if you want to get one later down the road cause you want something fool proof, absolutely, but if you're in a pickle, save your funds and get a Sig Romeo5. These guys could care less about your financial well being telling you to buy optics more than what most Americans even have in their savings. You'll have folks say "if you don't got an aimpoint your live must not matter" enough when folks have been saving their lives and loved ones with way less than that. If they try to even use military input remember that basic farmers have used guns older than the enemies themselves, being the strongest military powers in the world and beat em. You're a civ you don't need the highest tech but it's in your right to do take advantage when you can, I won't judge you, but some random will, it's the internet.
I’ve always seen it as a sort of “fat shaming.” Fat shaming can be seen as bullying, but it can also be seen as motivating those who need to better themselves. The anti-poor can be seen as pushing people to save just a little bit more to get a higher quality, and more reliable firearm… see it as you will
Certainly not anti-poor, but a lot of poor gun owners (a lot of gun owners in general) have very bad firearm safety training and social norms. Once you've had a certain number of bad experiences with that demographic, you want to avoid them. Someone is going to die sooner or later and I'd rather not be around.
Pointing guns at people, bad trigger discipline, shooting off guns in the air for fun in populated areas, leaving guns around the house with kids present etc. etc.
It’s also people needing to convince others that they didn’t waste money on an overpriced product when a more reasonable price option would do just as well. By default their choices are almost to bash the modest or low priced product or accept that maybe they were a little foolish in paying what they did. At end of day do what you can afford, what makes you happy, and do it safely. Nothing else really matters.
**Part of it is pride.** The average US income is just under $70k\*, or about $50k after tax. That sounds like a lot, but it's not. Cost of shelter is $1,250 (\~$1500 for a mortgage, \~$1,000 for rent). Say food is $500/mo. Gas is another $50. Let's pretend he has a car payment of $200/mo, which is less than half of the national average used car loan. His $50k take home is down to $26,000. Add in other life expenses, entertainment, dining out, a family, any unplanned repairs, savings, etc and that evaporates quickly.
A average guy who spends $1,000 on an AR and then another $500 on an optic + ammunition has spent a LARGE percentage of their discretionary income on a gun. They should be proud of it because, I don't care what anyone says, it is a personal decision usually made after hours of research. Anyone saying that they should have spent more or differently is telling them that thy screwed their analysis up.
**Part of is dweebishness.** Some people just have to tell the world how much they know by critiquing EVERYTHING. "Oh, your Tarus sucks even though you took it to the range and it works fine and you like it. Just look at the internet. You should have purchased a $2,400 Bruin, you idiot noob. Buy once, cry once! I'm right! I know more than you! You are not as good as me! I AM ALL THINGS GUN!" I mean, okay. Cool.
\*that average includes the ultra-high-cost cities/states so the "real" average for a working Joe is probably lower.
As with anything, the people who really know what they're doing don't need the most expensive hardware.
I just met with an experienced long-range target shooter who was getting by just fine on a budget rifle and "low-end" optic. His biggest problem is that there are no >1,000m ranges near us.
Like, I can't really speak to that, but for years I ran a Vortex Strikefire II on my AR and was told to "go get a real Aimpoint." Still have that optic. Now I run an ACOG, but only because I wanted it. At the end of the day, I'm not storming Fallujah. I'm taking my M16A4 build to the range and shooting at paper. Or clays in a stand. Or at soup cans.
My reading of the firearms community over the past 20 years is a fairly toxic alpha male "commando" attitude is a pretty honest stereotype.
The internet in general is rude as fuck because we are all basically anonymous and a fair bit of the comments are probably actually parodying the stereotypes.
Couple this with the fact that many new shooters come on here and ask questions that are answered 10 times per day and could have been googled, you might see why people are rude. Especially when they don't like the answers and start to argue.
Shooting a lot is pretty expensive so at the higher end it really is a wealther person's game.
Yeah there are a lot of dudes who think theyre basically SEAL Team Six because they put a Nightforce on their AR and grew a beard. Its obnoxious for the noobs when people are like "Looking for my first gun" and some keyboard oper8tor starts telling them anything but a DD build is trash
The toxicity used to be much worse. More and more the wanna be tough guys just get called on their bullshit.
[Sort by controversial](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/z305fm/is_it_normal_for_308_to_hurt)
It isn't about anti-poor. Quality costs money. Accessories cost money. Critical reliability costs money.
So, if someone has a Hi-Point in a Uncle Mike's Universal Holster and thinks they're good to go... it's our kinda moral responsibility to say that that arrangement can make you dead.
There's plenty of very decent budget firearms and accessories out there, but you've got to do your legwork on what's good and what's trash.
Personally, I don't want to see anyone betting their life on a $200 Taurus. Not because it's $200, but because it's manufacturer doesn't give a fuck if that gun goes bang when you need it to go bang.
There's a lot of horse trading that goes on in the gun community at the local level. 25+ years ago, I'd hit up local flea market and traveling gun shows, pick up shit like stocks, steam the dents out, refinish them and flip em for other accessories and parts, clean and blue it, flip it again. Now, I'm rocking stupid expensive competition guns with very little cash injection from me, because I was willing to put the time in.
Buying cheap guns and equipment isn’t inherently the issue, the issue is that people will buy these things and think that they are of equal quality or better than more proven gear.
Yeah it’s not so much anti poor as trying to protect people from bad decisions. The last 3 days all I’ve seen here are monstrosity builds that people are actually proud of. It’s like a ricer car build where all the internals are stock and the base car was questionable to begin with. People buy a bunch of cheap shitty guns and over mod them instead of saving that money on a few good guns that can actually be used
It’s not about being anti-poor, it’s about encouraging your fellow shooters to get quality stuff and avoid the Chinese garbage and or shitty firearms that will not work or are prone to malfunction.
If you want the $50 sight mark, fine, but don’t get all pissy when you can’t zero or it stops working abruptly. If you want the Taurus, fine, but don’t get all pissy when your cylinder locks up or you get squibs in your first mag.
I always encourage the buy once cry once methodology; buy one optic, use it for life. Buy one quality firearm, use it for your life and your children’s children’s lives.
Sorry Reddit overlord I didn’t realize I needed a qualification I’ll go to Reddit college I promise
I thought I knew and it turns out I was wrong. Let it go.
I see people post budget rugers all the time and are well received. It’s just garbage manufacturers that aren’t respected like kel tec, hi point, and Taurus. They just happen to be cheap
Unfortunately poor people often make poor choices and have poorly structured lives. That’s part of the reason they’re poor. They budget their money poorly and they make bad decisions. Also unfortunately people often attach someone’s character or value as a person to their social status…sometimes rightly so, but many times not.
I asked because I genuinely wonder what purpose people like you exist to serve
My inches are right where they need to be playa 😭😭
Anyone who thinks the amount of money they spend on guns = inches on anything at all is probably lacking a few below the belt, imo 🤷🏻♀️
🤣🤣 possibly. Real shit, im not an elitist i just like fucking with people. I started my collection with a $125 mossberg 500 shotgun. Its taken 15 years to get where i am now with it. Little bits at a time, if you really are like that towarss people its kinda fucked. Most people don’t get into guns with their firrst purchase being a $4k scar. Some people have it like that, but i would trust the guy with the beat to shit anderson ar that has 20k rounds through it before i trust the guy with the $4k scar
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This goes back to anything. Something more expensive is generally regarded as “better”. Tons of firearms sub 1000 that’ll last years and perform well if taken care of. Idk if theres any tradies in here but its like the DeWalt vs Milwaukee arguments same tools different price, pick your fav
There is elitism everywhere, you always have a small portion of any group who think expensive = quality.
But there is a point of trying to be too frugal and cheap where gear is concerned. There are in fact, genuinely good quality firearms for low budgets (sub $500 and pending firearm type). However, there are many very poor quality options flooding this budget range that simply aren't worth the money.
We've seen time and time again someone (even ourselves) having to buy a completely different gun because the budget choice won't work. So now you're out hundreds of dollars, not just for the gun, but the ammo and time you spent with that item. It often becomes a larger setback in more ways than the person thought and that hurts worse than just losing money.
Elitism is often conflated with good advice because people hate being wrong and most of us are too jaded to treat everyone like a child.
As B.Real said "save yo money, man." Do your research, and get quality. If that means saving up for a month or two to get a S&W ar15-22 vs. a Mossberg 715t then do it. It's more like a financial adviser letting you know a stock you're interested is penny stock and to save up for a real investment. If you're looking for the best budget 22lr out there, Fleet Farm has the Ruger Charger on sale. I know people will disagree with my choice in guns, it's just my taste.
It’s not much different from groups about tools. You have the people who trash a cheaper brand and only buy one or two brands, and objectively yes, the other brands are probably better and will hold up better for people in the trades.
But the guy who buys the Ryobi drill and uses it once a year is probably going to do fine with it and never have an issue, nor “miss” the better tool’s extra features. With that use case in mind, it’s not a bad choice for that casual user. However, more experienced people who have more invested (time is ultimate investment) are often feeling like they’ve “learned the lesson” and would just start with something nicer. It still doesn’t mean the casual user will ever have that experience, though.
I'm sure there's a lot of guys in credit card debt posting pictures of their KAC SBR captioned "flexing on the poors". As others have said, the other side of potential elitism is just trying to help newbies not waste their money on garbage products.
As an AK guy. We will tell you if your gun sucks. In the AK world at least, shitty guns will literally blow up. It's actually dangerous to you if you shoot substandard quality guns. If you realize your mistake and sell it or get rid of it fine, we all make mistakes. Where we really lay into people is when you justify your shitty purchase because you can't accept the fact that you screwed up. If you buy a rifle that is well known and documented to have catastrophic issues and say it's just as good as the rest, you're an idiot and deserve to be made fun of.
For myself--admittedly an elitist--it's not about poor people, it's about cheap (i.e. poorly made) guns. If this were an enthusiast car board, no one would tease you about a 1st-gen Miata or a beat up Boxster, but they might talk shit about your Mercury Capri XR2.
You don't have to sell a kidney for a Wilson Combat, but buy a reliable brand. Many well-reputed manufacturers have a decent Glock clone, e.g. Beretta APX, for a bit less than a Glock. There's no reason to buy that Hi-Point.
Many people are idiots. Regardless if they are "rich snobs" or "poor hicks". Both can be idiots. People telling you to save up and buy something better than a Taurus have probably experienced their super lame customer service after their gun broke. People telling you to buy the cheapest thing that goes bang, probably don't shoot enough to break them. There is a really, really great middle ground in the $350-550 range (depending on sales and discounts). For instance, there is a 4" M&P 2.0 9mm compact for $480'ish with a $100 rebate. Hard to beat something like that. Beretta had something similar about a year ago. Before buying, look around for current deals and handle one to see if you like it. Finally, the guys telling you to buy some high end piece are obviously living a different life than many of us.
Lile most said there are two reasons most call people poor. One, there is a better option in the same price range. Two, they try to say their cheaper option is just as good. It's not, that is OK. A peak poor vehemently defends their stupid decisions.
Often it's people telling you "buy cheap, get cheap" which is true. Bargain guns can often be quite faulty. Like you REALLY don't want to roll the dice on a 10% chance of the gun to jam, when someone is coming for you.
But yes there are also assholes who are really unhelpful and not exactly supportive of noobs.
Also the very nature of guns is economically a bit elitist. If you are poor, you can't afford good guns or even ammunition for that matter. It is real expensive to go to the range at times.
It’s kind of the joke of the community pooping on the poors. I genuinely feel as it’s a great way to just joke around because everyone started there. I really don’t know anyone who started off with the Gucciest of stuff. Most of us start with a hand me down gun, some normal off the rack long gun, or just buying the bare minimum of what we thought was okay for a carry pistol.
A lot of it is because so many people were fooled in to buying gimmicky rip offs when they first started out and kind of consider it a right of passage to buy an NC star eotech knockoff and wonder why it’s so fucking hard to get it zeroed (because it’s shifting with every shot)
There is a lot of stuff out there that really isn’t “good enough” that’s advertising itself as a good option.
Then you get all the fudds that are constantly “WOULD YOU TRUST YOUR LIFE TO THAT YA DUMB LIBROL” on every single gun you own because apparently owning any gun comes with the expectation that just owning it WILL put you in a situation where you have to defend your loved ones or whatever. Bro, it’s a range toy. They’re almost all range toys. Funnily enough, the worst firearm advice I see people getting is from former military and law enforcement guys. Military guys know small unit tactics and how to clean their issues firearms, but a lot of them don’t really understand firearm basics (I’ve been told by a guy that he could convert my airsoft M4A1 in to a working rifle “easily” lol)
I think partially it’s hopefully education one what level of parts/firearms to buy to trust your life to.
The other part is this is an enthusiast group, and enthusiasts want to see cool stuff. Car analogy: no one is gonna be excited for your stock 2013 Prius.
I’ve got buddies that insist on HK, Surefire, have comms systems, night vision, body armor and just about anything top tier that a civilian can get. We are all vets and none of us will be running teams anymore.
When we were active duty, I am the only one who was actually on a fire team (and it was a long time ago).
I want something reliable for that “just in case” situation. These guys are acting like they’re tier 1 operators. That’s expensive, and unnecessary.
> What is it about so many people that participate in shooting sports and such being so anti-poor? Sometimes it is about trying to prevent someone throwing thier money away on things that will either fail quickly or underperform compared to whatever is seen as the default option to make it a bad buy. Sometimes it is just regular ass classism.
Both are true. You get a lot of people that have next to no experience but I have extremely strong opinions about specific firearms. I often carry a Beretta 92 and over the years I’ve had a few people here share fifth hand anecdotes about their uncle who was a clerk in the Air Force that said the M9 was garbage. On the other hand you have the idiots screeching that Tarus is just as good when it’s a firearm you’re going to own for decades who cares if you spend an extra hundred dollars on a product that doesn’t have a long history of failures.
I see exactly what you're saying. Makes a lot of sense.
Anyone who says the M9 is garbage clearly hasn’t spent any time handling and shooting one.
I do understand the hate from some US service members who got stuck with them toward the end of their service life but it’s always confused me why they couldn’t connect the gun being old and shot to death with the gun not running right. Similarly I’ve heard horror stories of National Guard members being sent to Iraq with clapped out M16’s, an individual rifle not being maintained does not mean the rifle itself wasn’t once a good rifle.
I can tell you first hand. The m9 to this day 30 years later and many, many, many guns later is the only weapon that fell apart on me. 1st round. I'll take my 40 yo mix master 1911 over it any day.
I’m calling bullshit unless it was an old beaten to death M9. US Armed Forces get those pistols dirty, they never rebuild them shot a lot of them well past their service life.
These were fresh new ones, they took out nice 1911s away for that hunk of crap.
Strongly doubt it due to personal experience with the firearm. And by “nice” 1911 you mean firearms that malfunction constantly.
Doubt away then. Never had an issue with my issues 1911. Never had to sift through gravel at the range to find parts of my pistol with a 1911.
In what service and what time frame were you issued a 1911?
Army 86.
Roger that.
u/corey307 You found him.
/u/englisi_baladid, I'm guessing you've seen more M9s in use than this guy has. Do you have an opinion on their reliability compared to other pistols?
Service M9s all over the place. From new ones that worked well. To ones that were ready to fall apart in your hands. Personally not a fan of the M9. But it's more than adequate service weapon. My biggest grip is the safety is dumb. But not unmanageable. And the grip is wide which can cause issues qualling for some people. When I was still dealing with M9s and in charge of training big navy personnel to qual. We would often switch out M9s for M11s/P228s that we had for pilots for smaller hand shooters like females to qual.
Very interesting--thank you.
It's the shitty thing about service weapons. Outside of high speed units. And even at those its not perfect you don't know what you are getting in terms of a weapon in terms of quality There was testing to see how M4A1s were doing with M855A1. Well they found bolt life is around 17k with a new gun. But the interesting part was they tested rebuilds also. So a gun that was sent for maintenance and then gauged and tested. Well those were all over the place. You had bolts failing at as little as 3k rounds. But that bolt passed inspection. So if someone says their gun sucked. Probably true. But that doesn't mean the design does.
That absolutely makes sense. Good to know.
Oh they are reliable as pistols go. It's abysmal start was probably due to production. Being rushed to service and such. Plus it fixed a problem that didn't exist as the 1911s were easy to maintain and the supply chain for parts and repairs was still viable. As often quoted a pistol is only good for getting the rifle you shouldn't have lost
You also get the guys who look for ways to rationalize being an asshole. They like to tell themselves that "bullying works." Anyone who's ever had to learn something difficult could tell you that being a dick about it just makes it harder to learn. Of course you get the guys who are both arrogant and ignorant, spewing nonsense at every opportunity. Those guys can get all the bullying for all I care. But you have people who are genuinely interested in guns and just learning. There's no good reason to be dicks to those people. That's how the community grows
In this day and age we need every 2A supporter we can get. I think a lot of people conveniently forget that there was once a first time they laid hands on a gun. It can be confusing and even nerve wracking for someone with no background whatsoever. There's bound to be "stupid" questions, but it's much safer for everyone if those "stupid" questions get asked and answered.
No KAC and Night Force? Off my range.
It makes no sense to save $100 when buying a gun. Over gun's lifetime this difference is negligible, especially compared to price of ammo over the same period.
I also find gun prices never really go down, so this does make sense.
Gun prices absolutely go down sometimes.
I'd love to know when to be ready for this to happen, any examples of what causes prices to drop would be appreciated!
After Obama left office, 2000s when ar makers became plentiful, 1-2 months after tax returns start flowing and car payments start coming in.
Recession is a good one. Shiny toys are the first thing people start to liquidate.
This piques my soon to be 21 year old and in Texas interest greatly. Thank you for the info.
For what it’s worth, that would affect the top and bottom of the market drastically different. For example, a $4000 NIB 70s Python might sell for like $2400, but a Glock 17 will still be a $500 gun.
I'll be liquidating silver first
Ummm....starting to happen now. In general most guns are cheaper now than at height of Pandemic and looting/ rioting. Not the highe end, hard to find ones. The everyday ones. A lot of manufacturers either just had or are still running rebates.
It makes plenty of sense to me if I can get the same gun for $100 less.
Capitalism says you can't. It's going to be a lesser gun, at least up to a point of diminishing return (around $500 to $1,000).
Good models from a reputable manufacturer will last 100 years with minimal maintenance. Unreputable manufacturers have track records of making unreliable guns out of the box. If you can save $50 a month for a year you can buy a reliable AR, hunting rifle, duty pistol, concealable pistol or pump shotgun. I think someone on a budget is better off buying one reliable gun a year than buying something that doesn't work. In 5-10 years they'll probably own every gun they want. If someone only owed budget guns such as, * 10/22 * M&P AR-15 * Maverick 88 * Savage Axis * Glock 19 I would think they made good choices with their limited budget. Brands like SCCY, Taurus, Turkish semi auto shotguns and Promags earned their bad reputation.
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You bought a Taurus, didn't you? EDIT: [checks post history] Wait, is this about your Maverick? That thing gets recommended in like 90% of all posts asking for help choosing a shotgun. When people on a strict budget are getting seduced by shitty Turkish gun marketing, the folks here are more likely to say "spend less and get a reliable Maverick" than "pay twice as much for a high-end gun."
Every time I see something like this come up it's because someone bought a really low quality gun or accessory and they don't like being told they made a mistake. It isn't *actually* elitism; there is often a superior option within the same price range. But the perception people have is that "I bought something cheap -> people are telling me it's bad -> therefore they hate it purely because it's cheap -> therefore they hate poor people" and that logic is deeply flawed. It's an emotional reaction to people defending their purchase because they don't like being told they may have made a mistake. At the end of the day though, shooting isn't really a cheap hobby and there *are* situations where you simply have to spend the money if you want a decent option. When someone wants to buy a scope for their rifle and people tell them not to buy the $20 one on Amazon, that isn't being elitist either. The reality is that there are a lot of sub-par products on the market that aren't actually suitable for use on guns and sometimes, yes, you're gonna have to spend several times your budget if you want something functional and reliable, so you might just not be able to afford it. Thats not unique to the firearms scene, that's just life. Sometimes there isn't a cheaper alternative and while that does suck for people who can't afford it, that's just the world we live in.
Most of the 'poors' comments are joking. The only time it turns serious is when somebody buys cheap junk and then defends it stupidly. It is only in part "what" was bought. There's good cheap options, those don't get made fun of.
My shtf gun is a no name Turkish bullpup. I’ve got one 5 round mag and can’t source more but it looks scary so that’s good enough. No I’ve never shot it, why do you ask?
Not gonna lie, you had me in the first half. I was worried I didn't know who you were anymore.
Haha yeah.
I couldn't find the comment, but somebody was literally suggesting one of those or something like it for HD. Might have been a KSG though... Edit: [Could be worse](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/zo0l69/comment/j0kwhxu/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)
Friggin’ laser beams!
OP in that thread: >I DO NOT train with firearms I simply have mine for self defense lolwut
It was all sorts of stupid.
> No I’ve never shot it, why do you ask? Nah, you put *two* five-round boxes through it and it ran *flawlessly.*
Well yeah, what do you think I’m made of money?
Wait, you’re not made of money? Somebody shame this man until he GTFO of our hobby. *goes back to watering exotic plants with Macallan 30*
I have one of those Turkish no name bullpup semi autos. It's fun as hell, and a great way to cap off a range trip for a first timer with no gun experience. It's run a few dozen boxes of shells, no issues. If I ever call it my shtf gun it's safe to assume I've been body snatched.
The thing about those shotguns is they tend to shoot themselves apart so if you have one just for fun you do you buy otherwise they are a poor investment.
Yeah if i needed to rely on a shotgun I've got a mossberg 500. If i just want to goof off and huck lead downrange, i know where to go.
The jokes can detract new comers especially when out of the loop
A lot of cheap guns are poor quality or make significant compromises. Hi points are generally functional but not "just as good" as a gently used Glock or something
No as good, almost as good of a warrantee and half the price of a used Glock .
At double the weight and half the capacity. They're fine, but not the same
For a human on a budget it's perfect
> perfect I don't think that word means what you think it means
Seriously, at least go Bryco or Jennings.
Appropriate then.
Several reasons. There are some gun's that just are not very good in terms of quality and reliability, and sometimes it really is just someone trying to prevent another from making mistakes they have already made. Sometimes it's someone making themselves feel good, justifying their purchase by making someone else feel bad about their less expensive purchase. Some people only get satisfaction from owning a top tier gun by telling others they own that gun. You also have the ones that believe that the kit makes the operator. And that because they own a $10,000 set up they are official "door kickers", capable of holding off the federal government single-handedly as the world trembles in fear at their KAC15 and ceramic plates. But don't be fooled, credit card debt is where a significant portion of what you see comes from.
I think the “poors” who most people have a problem with are people who buy low quality firearms, and when it’s pointed out to them, they get defensive and claim it’s just as good instead of being willing to learn and possibly admit that they made a mistake. Or better yet, ask for advice before making the purchase. Just an example of anchoring fallacy. In general, I also think that most don’t like to see people try to cheap out on things that are supposed to be life saving devices; yes there are ways to save money but there’s still a minimum you have to spend to get something reliable and decent, and it’s usually not that much more than what people spend to get something cheaper and unreliable.
When I was much younger (poor), I bought a Jennings 22. Calling it garbage is a compliment. After a particularly frustrating shooting day, I threw it in an old tool box without cleaning it and forgot about it. 7 years later I got it out and stripped it and cleaned it with the detail of a crank fiend. It is now the butteriest smooth plinker ever. Over 1000 rounds without a jam or stovepipe. I am NOT defending this gun — still garbage — but your comment reminded me of this little anecdote so I thought I’d share.
The thing about those cheap, lower quality guns is this: it’s not impossible to get a good one, it might even be that a lot of them are ok, but in general, the lower price means the have to skimp on some things and quality control is generally the first and most heavily effected by that. So your chance of getting one that doesn’t function properly is a lot higher than with more expensive or more reputable brands, and when you’re talking about your life, it doesn’t make sense to take that risk. A .22lr for plinking that’s never going to see any use outside of the range isn’t a big deal to cheap out on; .22lr isn’t reliable enough for defensive use anyway in my view. But a carry/potential home defense gun or even a hunting gun is a lot different to my mind. At the very least, anyone who buys a lower quality weapon should use the money they saved by buying it to put it through its paces at the range enough to ensure that it functions reliably and will do so if needed, but at that point it seems like you’d be better off having spent the money on a reliable weapon from word go; of course you have to verify function there too but to a lesser degree in my personal opinion. As an example, I’d be comfortable with a Glock’s reliability with 100 rounds through it to verify proper function but I’d have to put at least 1k through a Taurus before I personally trusted it. Of course that’s just one man’s opinion.
Seems like a sound, logical opinion to me.
My father gave me a Jennings tossed it in a shoe box after it jammed for the 3000th time Picked it back up 2 years later as it's so corroded its almost not recognizable lol
Oh Lordy. Maybe clean it up and hope it becomes fun? Or toss it into the volcano
That was like 15 years ago it hasn't gotten worse but it's extremely pitted and nasty
I think you'll need to be a lot more specific in what you're talking about Way too often people come in here asking us to rationalize their ill-advised purchases, for example "here's my Taurus G3C, I paid $250, [YouTube influencer/magazine] said it's just as good as a Glock 19, did I do good??" And then will get belligerent when it's mentioned that Taurus has a terrible track record for product safety, reliability, durability, customer service, etc etc. "You just hate me because I don't have the budget for anything more than that!" is a pretty common thread in such situations So when you say elitist gun owners hate poor people.... no. We mostly hate to see people waste their money on garbage when marginally more money can be spent on any number of products which are superior in literally every other aspect other than bottom dollar
the classic " does anyone have any real world experience with IO AKs, Im not talking about anything you read on the internet or saw in some stupid YouTube video either" Just FYI Ive seen this statement about various shit tier hand grenade American AKs, usually IO or Centuries nearly verbatim on multiple occasions over the years. Its usually someone that just bought one, THEN reads all the crappy reviews on them and still for whatever reason feels like they have to come and justify their purchase to a bunch of strangers on the internet. No we dont, dumbass, because we don't need to have first hand experience to know somethings garbage with overwhelming and near universal evidence that supports it.
Lol yep. "I don't trust *those* anecdotes, give me fresh **new** anecdotes which don't contradict my preconceived conclusion you elitist shill"
> " does anyone have any real world experience with IO AKs, Im not talking about anything you read on the internet or saw in some stupid YouTube video either" Ah, yes. The old "I feel superior because I refuse to base my conclusions on anything but anecdotes" strategy.
Don't bother answering unless you have FIRST HAND experience jumping off a cliff just because your friends did!
I think you're just being a Glock femboy that hates anything that more than $350. Nothing wrong with my Taurus G3 with spare promag clip and NcStar laser/light, hasn't failed me yet and I've shot 300 rounds through it no issues.
Sounds about right! And usually "300 rounds" means "my fingers get tired loading the magazine so often but it was like, hundreds of bullets bro." And also "no issues" translates to "multiple stovepipes and other failures to feed but that's just the break-in period"
To be fair, my department issued Glock 22 had a few stovepipes in the first few hundred rounds during break in. No other issues in the last 17 years though.
In b4 "40 cal joke" I think the major difference there is you actually acknowledged there was an issue, that the issue did not get worse from then on, and that Glock does not have a track record of "yep you gotta send 2k down the pipe and send it back to the factory 2-3 times before it'll run ok"
Bro hundreds of bullets is alot. Everything has a break in period. Don't be rude bro. Unless you wonna bro down bruh
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Cuck
So sorry for being the guy, but you meant “Glock fanboy”, right?
I said what I said Ed boi
Sounds like you just read anecdotes online several years ago and think nothing ever improves unless it's expensive.
I mean, there was a user here last week posting about how his brand-new Taurus couldn't shoot straight. Every single bullet was impacting sideways on paper. Turns out the factory didn't even cut rifling in the barrel and at no point in the manufacturing process was this noticed, or addressed. But yeah "Taurus is better now, all the problems were from years ago" is a line I have been hearing over and over again for the past decade
Same except three decades.
But the above user will only accept firsthand anecdotes, and I've barely been alive 3 decades at this point!
You may be mistaking what you call anti-poor for people telling you not to buy garbage firearms. Most people here will tell a new gun owner to buy good budget friendly firearms. you can get a perfectly good Mossberg pump shotgun for $300, lots of good handguns for around $500 and there’s plenty of trustworthy AR’s around $500-$700. Thing is there’s a lot of garbage on the market and often times when we tell people that their choice of firearm is a bad one and try to steer them away from it they call us elitist when really we know that gun is garbage either through multiple reviews here or personal experience. I currently own two dozen firearms and only one that retailed for over $1,000 when it was new. Almost every gun in my collection is so reliable that it’s boring and I trust almost all of them with my life. That said there’s no real garbage in my collection either. No shitty American made AK, no crappy handguns, no Turkish shotguns. Turkish shotguns are a common problem here were people accuse us of being elitist when they could’ve spent the same money or less on a good Mossberg, Winchester, used Browning or old used Remington and got a far more trustworthy firearm. The vast majority of turkey shotguns do not work and no amount of fucking with them will get them to work. It’s the same deal with handguns, is quite a few garbage manufactures out there when you could pick up a trust worthy used Glock, Smith and Wesson and often times a new Ruger or Canik for the same price as a garbage pistol. Now we move onto the AR platform, you can buy or build a perfectly good rifle under $700 no problem and can often spend less. But we get newbies who buy rifles from shit companies like bear creek arsenal or radical and don’t understand that they bought bottom tier parts and probably didn’t save any money over some thing that will last longer and be more trustworthy. It’s even worse when they buy parts from no-name companies slapping together the lowest grade parts and throwing on knock off Chinese rails and hand guards that look fancy. So yes there’s tons of good guns out there that you can get on a budget and that will last a literal lifetime an offer almost exactly the same reliability as something that cost several times more. But there’s a lot of garbage around that price range as well so ask us before you buy.
Also depends a lot where you live. In Canada there aren't a lot of budget friendly options unless you want a 22lr or bolt action. You can either buy a bottom tier semi auto ar180 for $1500cad that will literally fall apart in under a thousand rounds, or spend $2.5k-$5k on something reliable. This means most people end up buying cheap shit and a lot of others get snobby with their expensive gear.
Vermont, New Hampshire and Maine would welcome you with open arms friend. We’ve got freedom over here.
> Turkish shotguns are a common problem here were people accuse us of being elitist when they could’ve spent the same money or less on a good Mossberg, Winchester, used Browning or old used Remington and got a far more trustworthy firearm. But the Eaglefucker Armory Patriot Tactical SUX-12sd costs the same amount and has more *features.*
I’m the opposite! I own dozens of high priced guns that suck! The ‘eliteism’ goes both ways, there is (possibly) equally as much *over*priced garbage that isn’t worth buying either.
That’s fair, hell the only gun I own that would’ve gotten me killed is my Benelli M2. I don’t know how but the magazine endcap decided to loosen or shear off and fly down range one time, I know it wasn’t operator error because I’m methodical when I clean and reassemble guns. It’s perfect now that I installed a Nordic components +3 tube and some thread locker just for good measure.
If you use the phrase “just as good” you deserved to get clowned on. If you asked dumb questions that are usually answered in easily found threads that are saved for that exact reason, you deserved to get clowned on Most people don’t want to hear that what they spent their money on is shit. They worked hard for that money and the idea that it was wasted gets taken as an insult. Also sarcasm doesn’t translate well to type
I think that is mostly a small loud handful of people. I’d bet 90% of this sub would give a thumbs up to someone buying a psa rifle.
PSA kicks ass and deserves many fiat dollars
PSA is doing cheap the right way to do cheap.
Most gun laws in every single state are "Anti Poor," as opposed to being pro mental health, pro safety and common sense. Like the saying goes, if the punishment for breaking a law is financial then the law is for the poor alone.
I haven't ever encountered anything consciously anti poor, but in the long range shooting community there seems to be an inability to understand budgets and an undue focus on status symbols, particularly when it comes to optics. I just assume some people make a lot of money and dont have families to support or any other hobbies lol. Never seen someone be a dick about anyone's income though. Just a kind of general cluelessness.
In lots of communities, groups, or hobbies there’s a failure to understand a point of diminishing returns too. Like yes, a $900 gun is likely magnitudes better than a $300 one. But a $3,000 gun is not the same magnitude better than the $900 gun is to the $300.
Clay shooters are like this too. Someone asks what a good beginner gun is and you get a ton of “perazzi” and “kolar” type answers, saying they should cry once and buy once over the 8-15k gun. Seriously no better way for the fucking sport to die than for that to be the entry point.
For sure, and as someone else pointed out theres diminishing returns on this stuff too. Like, I have a hard time believing an 8k gun is 8x better than a 1k gun. Youre paying for the name and prestige at that point.
Idc what you got as long as you’re returning fire
1. Some guns that are cheap are bad 2. People are assholes In general stay away from the ultra cheap stuff like hi-point pistols, truglo optics, and turkshit shotguns. But don’t let people shit on your for buying budget stuff, like PSA, Holosun, and other stuff like that. The budget stuff is rarely going to be a problem. And if it is, they usually have good return/warranty policies.
Because a lot of people are just plain ole dickheads.
Imma try a different perspective. Ready the downvotes from a fellow "poor" Guns are an expensive hobby. While "poors" is seen as a joke it has pros and cons. It's a product of the consumerism that runs rampant in gun culture. Pros: buy quality firearm and accessories, likely to have a more reliable firearm Cons: inside joke of looking down on folks who have basic guns. There's the notice that you shouldn't have a gun with an optic that's more expensive than your gun, but an M&P sport or Ruger will do more than 90% of the job. You want a kac, Pws, or even a radian, sure, but if you're just hitting paper and steel they do the same thing with a few new added features that "could" hello. But if you don't have the basics down and know how you are as a shooter it won't have much value. Get a Romeo 5 red dot for $100 or pay $80 more for a cooler looking one. You DON'T NEED AN EOTECH, AIMPOINT, ACOG, etc. You want one for a rare chance of you're life being in danger (depends on many factors so you decide) your Holosun will do more than enough. If you wish to invest more money go ahead they won't fail you (as much but can). They will definitely be more reliable and if you want to get one later down the road cause you want something fool proof, absolutely, but if you're in a pickle, save your funds and get a Sig Romeo5. These guys could care less about your financial well being telling you to buy optics more than what most Americans even have in their savings. You'll have folks say "if you don't got an aimpoint your live must not matter" enough when folks have been saving their lives and loved ones with way less than that. If they try to even use military input remember that basic farmers have used guns older than the enemies themselves, being the strongest military powers in the world and beat em. You're a civ you don't need the highest tech but it's in your right to do take advantage when you can, I won't judge you, but some random will, it's the internet.
People that own a lot of guns are clearly materialistic to some extent, and they are going to view anyone that has less than them as lesser.
Ive seen it on the internet a bit because well...its the internet, but that's honestly not something I have ever encountered anywhere else.
Right, If you are at the range most people won’t tell you about your low quality firearm.
I'd have to GTFOT and find a better place to be.
WA -> TX here soon
I’ve always seen it as a sort of “fat shaming.” Fat shaming can be seen as bullying, but it can also be seen as motivating those who need to better themselves. The anti-poor can be seen as pushing people to save just a little bit more to get a higher quality, and more reliable firearm… see it as you will
Certainly not anti-poor, but a lot of poor gun owners (a lot of gun owners in general) have very bad firearm safety training and social norms. Once you've had a certain number of bad experiences with that demographic, you want to avoid them. Someone is going to die sooner or later and I'd rather not be around.
What social norms are you referring to?
Pointing guns at people, bad trigger discipline, shooting off guns in the air for fun in populated areas, leaving guns around the house with kids present etc. etc.
Exactly what it seems. People think they’re better because they have money. F** em and have fun.
I like people more your speed 😂🫡 couldn't agree more
It’s also people needing to convince others that they didn’t waste money on an overpriced product when a more reasonable price option would do just as well. By default their choices are almost to bash the modest or low priced product or accept that maybe they were a little foolish in paying what they did. At end of day do what you can afford, what makes you happy, and do it safely. Nothing else really matters.
**Part of it is pride.** The average US income is just under $70k\*, or about $50k after tax. That sounds like a lot, but it's not. Cost of shelter is $1,250 (\~$1500 for a mortgage, \~$1,000 for rent). Say food is $500/mo. Gas is another $50. Let's pretend he has a car payment of $200/mo, which is less than half of the national average used car loan. His $50k take home is down to $26,000. Add in other life expenses, entertainment, dining out, a family, any unplanned repairs, savings, etc and that evaporates quickly. A average guy who spends $1,000 on an AR and then another $500 on an optic + ammunition has spent a LARGE percentage of their discretionary income on a gun. They should be proud of it because, I don't care what anyone says, it is a personal decision usually made after hours of research. Anyone saying that they should have spent more or differently is telling them that thy screwed their analysis up. **Part of is dweebishness.** Some people just have to tell the world how much they know by critiquing EVERYTHING. "Oh, your Tarus sucks even though you took it to the range and it works fine and you like it. Just look at the internet. You should have purchased a $2,400 Bruin, you idiot noob. Buy once, cry once! I'm right! I know more than you! You are not as good as me! I AM ALL THINGS GUN!" I mean, okay. Cool. \*that average includes the ultra-high-cost cities/states so the "real" average for a working Joe is probably lower.
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As with anything, the people who really know what they're doing don't need the most expensive hardware. I just met with an experienced long-range target shooter who was getting by just fine on a budget rifle and "low-end" optic. His biggest problem is that there are no >1,000m ranges near us.
Like, I can't really speak to that, but for years I ran a Vortex Strikefire II on my AR and was told to "go get a real Aimpoint." Still have that optic. Now I run an ACOG, but only because I wanted it. At the end of the day, I'm not storming Fallujah. I'm taking my M16A4 build to the range and shooting at paper. Or clays in a stand. Or at soup cans.
My reading of the firearms community over the past 20 years is a fairly toxic alpha male "commando" attitude is a pretty honest stereotype. The internet in general is rude as fuck because we are all basically anonymous and a fair bit of the comments are probably actually parodying the stereotypes. Couple this with the fact that many new shooters come on here and ask questions that are answered 10 times per day and could have been googled, you might see why people are rude. Especially when they don't like the answers and start to argue. Shooting a lot is pretty expensive so at the higher end it really is a wealther person's game.
Yeah there are a lot of dudes who think theyre basically SEAL Team Six because they put a Nightforce on their AR and grew a beard. Its obnoxious for the noobs when people are like "Looking for my first gun" and some keyboard oper8tor starts telling them anything but a DD build is trash
The toxicity used to be much worse. More and more the wanna be tough guys just get called on their bullshit. [Sort by controversial](https://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/z305fm/is_it_normal_for_308_to_hurt)
It isn't about anti-poor. Quality costs money. Accessories cost money. Critical reliability costs money. So, if someone has a Hi-Point in a Uncle Mike's Universal Holster and thinks they're good to go... it's our kinda moral responsibility to say that that arrangement can make you dead. There's plenty of very decent budget firearms and accessories out there, but you've got to do your legwork on what's good and what's trash. Personally, I don't want to see anyone betting their life on a $200 Taurus. Not because it's $200, but because it's manufacturer doesn't give a fuck if that gun goes bang when you need it to go bang. There's a lot of horse trading that goes on in the gun community at the local level. 25+ years ago, I'd hit up local flea market and traveling gun shows, pick up shit like stocks, steam the dents out, refinish them and flip em for other accessories and parts, clean and blue it, flip it again. Now, I'm rocking stupid expensive competition guns with very little cash injection from me, because I was willing to put the time in.
Buying cheap guns and equipment isn’t inherently the issue, the issue is that people will buy these things and think that they are of equal quality or better than more proven gear.
Yeah it’s not so much anti poor as trying to protect people from bad decisions. The last 3 days all I’ve seen here are monstrosity builds that people are actually proud of. It’s like a ricer car build where all the internals are stock and the base car was questionable to begin with. People buy a bunch of cheap shitty guns and over mod them instead of saving that money on a few good guns that can actually be used
It’s not about being anti-poor, it’s about encouraging your fellow shooters to get quality stuff and avoid the Chinese garbage and or shitty firearms that will not work or are prone to malfunction. If you want the $50 sight mark, fine, but don’t get all pissy when you can’t zero or it stops working abruptly. If you want the Taurus, fine, but don’t get all pissy when your cylinder locks up or you get squibs in your first mag. I always encourage the buy once cry once methodology; buy one optic, use it for life. Buy one quality firearm, use it for your life and your children’s children’s lives.
Guns don't cause squibs.
Even when the barrel is out of spec and too narrow? Guess it has a different name
A squib is a cartridge without enough propellant to get the bullet through the barrel.
Now I know
Shouldn't you know before you think you're qualified to give advice?
Not on reddit.
Sorry Reddit overlord I didn’t realize I needed a qualification I’ll go to Reddit college I promise I thought I knew and it turns out I was wrong. Let it go.
Good thing it wouldn't have gotten anyone hurt... this time.
Good thing we have mods like you to keep coming back to a non-issue (this time). It’s already been corrected. Great work 👍🏼
It's only the poors who don't understand it.
I see people post budget rugers all the time and are well received. It’s just garbage manufacturers that aren’t respected like kel tec, hi point, and Taurus. They just happen to be cheap
Except the Sub-2000.
Unfortunately poor people often make poor choices and have poorly structured lives. That’s part of the reason they’re poor. They budget their money poorly and they make bad decisions. Also unfortunately people often attach someone’s character or value as a person to their social status…sometimes rightly so, but many times not.
You’re only asking this question because….you are one of the said poors. Get your inches up player 💪🏻💪🏻
I asked because I genuinely wonder what purpose people like you exist to serve My inches are right where they need to be playa 😭😭 Anyone who thinks the amount of money they spend on guns = inches on anything at all is probably lacking a few below the belt, imo 🤷🏻♀️
So i have a tiny wiener…who cares. You don’t have to take it, so why does it matter…poor
that's the saddest thing i've read on reddit ;-; 🫶 good luck man
🤣🤣 possibly. Real shit, im not an elitist i just like fucking with people. I started my collection with a $125 mossberg 500 shotgun. Its taken 15 years to get where i am now with it. Little bits at a time, if you really are like that towarss people its kinda fucked. Most people don’t get into guns with their firrst purchase being a $4k scar. Some people have it like that, but i would trust the guy with the beat to shit anderson ar that has 20k rounds through it before i trust the guy with the $4k scar
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This goes back to anything. Something more expensive is generally regarded as “better”. Tons of firearms sub 1000 that’ll last years and perform well if taken care of. Idk if theres any tradies in here but its like the DeWalt vs Milwaukee arguments same tools different price, pick your fav
There is elitism everywhere, you always have a small portion of any group who think expensive = quality. But there is a point of trying to be too frugal and cheap where gear is concerned. There are in fact, genuinely good quality firearms for low budgets (sub $500 and pending firearm type). However, there are many very poor quality options flooding this budget range that simply aren't worth the money. We've seen time and time again someone (even ourselves) having to buy a completely different gun because the budget choice won't work. So now you're out hundreds of dollars, not just for the gun, but the ammo and time you spent with that item. It often becomes a larger setback in more ways than the person thought and that hurts worse than just losing money. Elitism is often conflated with good advice because people hate being wrong and most of us are too jaded to treat everyone like a child.
As B.Real said "save yo money, man." Do your research, and get quality. If that means saving up for a month or two to get a S&W ar15-22 vs. a Mossberg 715t then do it. It's more like a financial adviser letting you know a stock you're interested is penny stock and to save up for a real investment. If you're looking for the best budget 22lr out there, Fleet Farm has the Ruger Charger on sale. I know people will disagree with my choice in guns, it's just my taste.
It’s not much different from groups about tools. You have the people who trash a cheaper brand and only buy one or two brands, and objectively yes, the other brands are probably better and will hold up better for people in the trades. But the guy who buys the Ryobi drill and uses it once a year is probably going to do fine with it and never have an issue, nor “miss” the better tool’s extra features. With that use case in mind, it’s not a bad choice for that casual user. However, more experienced people who have more invested (time is ultimate investment) are often feeling like they’ve “learned the lesson” and would just start with something nicer. It still doesn’t mean the casual user will ever have that experience, though.
I'm sure there's a lot of guys in credit card debt posting pictures of their KAC SBR captioned "flexing on the poors". As others have said, the other side of potential elitism is just trying to help newbies not waste their money on garbage products.
As an AK guy. We will tell you if your gun sucks. In the AK world at least, shitty guns will literally blow up. It's actually dangerous to you if you shoot substandard quality guns. If you realize your mistake and sell it or get rid of it fine, we all make mistakes. Where we really lay into people is when you justify your shitty purchase because you can't accept the fact that you screwed up. If you buy a rifle that is well known and documented to have catastrophic issues and say it's just as good as the rest, you're an idiot and deserve to be made fun of.
For myself--admittedly an elitist--it's not about poor people, it's about cheap (i.e. poorly made) guns. If this were an enthusiast car board, no one would tease you about a 1st-gen Miata or a beat up Boxster, but they might talk shit about your Mercury Capri XR2. You don't have to sell a kidney for a Wilson Combat, but buy a reliable brand. Many well-reputed manufacturers have a decent Glock clone, e.g. Beretta APX, for a bit less than a Glock. There's no reason to buy that Hi-Point.
Many people are idiots. Regardless if they are "rich snobs" or "poor hicks". Both can be idiots. People telling you to save up and buy something better than a Taurus have probably experienced their super lame customer service after their gun broke. People telling you to buy the cheapest thing that goes bang, probably don't shoot enough to break them. There is a really, really great middle ground in the $350-550 range (depending on sales and discounts). For instance, there is a 4" M&P 2.0 9mm compact for $480'ish with a $100 rebate. Hard to beat something like that. Beretta had something similar about a year ago. Before buying, look around for current deals and handle one to see if you like it. Finally, the guys telling you to buy some high end piece are obviously living a different life than many of us.
Lile most said there are two reasons most call people poor. One, there is a better option in the same price range. Two, they try to say their cheaper option is just as good. It's not, that is OK. A peak poor vehemently defends their stupid decisions.
They need to cope that their $1000 Kimber or AR is better than a Hi Point or PSA when it really isn't.
Its like any other hobby…
Often it's people telling you "buy cheap, get cheap" which is true. Bargain guns can often be quite faulty. Like you REALLY don't want to roll the dice on a 10% chance of the gun to jam, when someone is coming for you. But yes there are also assholes who are really unhelpful and not exactly supportive of noobs. Also the very nature of guns is economically a bit elitist. If you are poor, you can't afford good guns or even ammunition for that matter. It is real expensive to go to the range at times.
I hit a bullseye 🎯 with my JCP 40 HI point from 40 yards 😎
It’s kind of the joke of the community pooping on the poors. I genuinely feel as it’s a great way to just joke around because everyone started there. I really don’t know anyone who started off with the Gucciest of stuff. Most of us start with a hand me down gun, some normal off the rack long gun, or just buying the bare minimum of what we thought was okay for a carry pistol.
A lot of it is because so many people were fooled in to buying gimmicky rip offs when they first started out and kind of consider it a right of passage to buy an NC star eotech knockoff and wonder why it’s so fucking hard to get it zeroed (because it’s shifting with every shot) There is a lot of stuff out there that really isn’t “good enough” that’s advertising itself as a good option. Then you get all the fudds that are constantly “WOULD YOU TRUST YOUR LIFE TO THAT YA DUMB LIBROL” on every single gun you own because apparently owning any gun comes with the expectation that just owning it WILL put you in a situation where you have to defend your loved ones or whatever. Bro, it’s a range toy. They’re almost all range toys. Funnily enough, the worst firearm advice I see people getting is from former military and law enforcement guys. Military guys know small unit tactics and how to clean their issues firearms, but a lot of them don’t really understand firearm basics (I’ve been told by a guy that he could convert my airsoft M4A1 in to a working rifle “easily” lol)
I think partially it’s hopefully education one what level of parts/firearms to buy to trust your life to. The other part is this is an enthusiast group, and enthusiasts want to see cool stuff. Car analogy: no one is gonna be excited for your stock 2013 Prius.
I’ve got buddies that insist on HK, Surefire, have comms systems, night vision, body armor and just about anything top tier that a civilian can get. We are all vets and none of us will be running teams anymore. When we were active duty, I am the only one who was actually on a fire team (and it was a long time ago). I want something reliable for that “just in case” situation. These guys are acting like they’re tier 1 operators. That’s expensive, and unnecessary.