T O P
deadMNGO

Not sure if taking money from a friend is ever a good idea, unless it's serious business. Better ask him to do something he's good at for you or treat you to a lunch etc.


_TickleMeElmo_

I wouldn't do programming work for less than 100€/h. Factor in taxes you will have to pay and time for setting up the development environment and testing as well as research if there is something in there you haven't done before and 20-30% buffer for unknowns.


Swedge_Matthews

Sounds good, thank you for the pricing


Jazzer008

Have you ever been paid €100/h? That’s almost €200,000 a year before tax.


Jathulioh

But you definitely don't get this for a whole year freelancing Most freelancers charge more than this too


Jazzer008

Contractors maybe, but freelancers? Where are people getting hired as a freelancer for more than that? I’d love to head over :D


Jathulioh

For this kind of job most certainly


Jazzer008

For a friend? That’s rough.


Jathulioh

Oh yeah, not counting for a friend xD I do stuff for fixed prices or super cheap when it comes to friends. Very much depends on the type of game too, if I'm learning a lot during the project I'll charge less for those hours vs when I know what I'm doing Lots of other variables, but as a general it can be quite expensive as a solo dev freelancing


aspiring_dev1

Sounds like a very simple prototype. What does your friend intend to do with it? Publish it? Improve it? Doesn’t sound like worth much plus it’s your friend.


Swedge_Matthews

Bit of both, wants to put it on the app store. I think he just wants to see what I come up with and then have me work on it (paid also) once we have a rough definition of "game"


MeaningfulChoices

Games like that are surprisingly difficult to monetize correctly, and require a _very_ large ad expenditure to get enough players to earn anything. Normally I would say pick what you work for an hour, estimate the time, multiple by 1.5x, and charge them that. But if your friend is looking to make money from running this game they're not getting penny of their money back, so you might want to be a bit considerate when you give them a price. I personally wouldn't get involved at all, it's not going to end well.


Swedge_Matthews

Yeah he's going in with the expectation that it's not going to make much/any money, he just wants a foot in the door to experience what works and what doesn't I know this goes over the scope of my question but can I PM you about what game aspects work well? I wouldn't want to take money for a game that sinks like a brick But thank you, this answer helped my decision


MeaningfulChoices

You can, but I can probably answer it right here: there is practically nothing in mobile that is worth getting into as an individual unless you _really_ know what you're doing and have a large bankroll. You're talking about hypercasual games here; the sort that can be made in a few days and are based around one simple mechanic and monetized through ads, both interstitial and rewarded. The way these games are made are the studios typically make the ads _first_ and test them by buying a few thousand dollars worth of ads. If any of them do well, they'll make that into an MVP quickly and then test that again, looking to see games that have good metrics (mostly retention and session length for hypercasual). A few dozen might fail for each one that looks good, and then they'll launch it, throw a few hundred thousand at them for user acquisition, run it for a few months, and move onto the next game. Longer term mobile games, on the other hand, typically have large teams and can require months of careful testing and tuning. It's hard to hit the sort of numbers you need to make mobile economics work, and those large games have budgets in the millions. If you're a new developer, there is absolutely no worse place to be than mobile. Game development without a lot of experience is in general a way to spend money, not earn it, but even so it's the most expensive and competitive market out there.


Swedge_Matthews

Ahhhh that makes sense, so they find the winning formula before they make the game, that's clever. In that case I'll probably turn my friend down\do it as a side project then, since it'll be a stress on him financially and most likely me mentally Thank you for your insight


LoopEverything

Wow, so reasonable! This is usually the point where people go, “I *understand*, but this won’t be me, I’m the exception!” Best of luck to you guys, sincerely.


kodiak931156

My suggestion. First make sure he understands the unlikelihood of thre game making money Then so long as you enjoy doing it. Make him the game for free and "charge" him a percentage of the profit.


philsiu02

Whatever you charge, be aware that you’re very unlikely to finish this in your estimated 8 hours unless it’s just an asset flip or extremely simple. You could likely get a basic prototype ready in 8 hours, but to get something ready to be sold (assuming you want at least some chance of success) will be days to weeks depending on the desired quality and features.


Swedge_Matthews

Ahhh my wording was misleading Kind of just a prototype, so we have a visual aid to add stuff onto, so not straight onto the shop floor it'll still be unenjoyable piece of bones


MyNameIsNotDevin

If it's for a friend and he plans on you working on it when it needs updates and fixes, I like the **hours in x 1.5 + (minimum wage hourly)**, and I'd ask for a 50/50 split in revenue after marketing and continue to work with him. (If you're planning on working with him in the future and own half of everything put forth, it's just good to lay down the "you're not going to pay me a lot now bc it will pay off with both of our hard work to get something out there") Having a partner is bad and good but if it's a friend that you can critique back and forth, that's a worth while venture that can form a good company or whatever you're planning to do with it, most start ups are scarce in the funding and you both probably will have to work because of lack of exposure. I've been off and on working on a game and trying to find someone you trust out the gate is hard especially if your friends aren't into that kind of thing (game making). If he's willing to eat the cost of paying you and appstore fees just to get his feet wet in the competitive app making market, it's worth. I sent this on my phone and I tend to have run on sentences lol so oops and sorry in advanced!


ManicMakerStudios

> I like the hours in x 1.5 + (minimum wage hourly), and I'd ask for a 50/50 split in revenue after marketing If you offered that to me I'd tell you to stuff it. You don't get paid up front *and* 50/50 on the back end. I would ask for a straight split on revenue, or any monies paid to you before the game launches is treated as an advance against future revenue. Nobody gets paid for time *and* a massive chunk of the profits. Pick a side.


MyNameIsNotDevin

Happens all the time in start ups, especially between two friends, if it was a random person then I'd have to agree


ManicMakerStudios

It's a dumb way to do business. You're essentially paying someone twice. It creates an imbalance in the payment structure right from the beginning that is hard to reconcile and is the reason why friends should never go into business together. You're better off declaring a revenue split up front and any monies paid to people so they can pay their bills while they work is an advance against that revenue. That way it's equitable for *everyone*, and not just one person.


MyNameIsNotDevin

I don't think you read it correctly, the hourly is to get it up and running.


ManicMakerStudios

I read it correctly. I also explained my point very clearly. I think it's you who is not understanding, else you wouldn't be arguing for why an actual 50/50 split is worse than one based on fuzzy math and "maybe".


MyNameIsNotDevin

You dont have to be rude about not agreeing with someone, just because you've never been in a start up, you don't need to spew negativity. Linus tech tips wan show recently explained their start and it's almost exactly what I said, I'd recommend watching it, two friends that made a company, one ate the cost while paying the other guy, and there were a revenue split, obviously you don't have to 50/50, it's a suggestion.


ManicMakerStudios

Rude is attacking me without even understanding what I said.


MyNameIsNotDevin

lol.


ManicMakerStudios

Explain to me what I said in your own words. You can't, because you have no idea.


kodiak931156

In this scenerio one person is brunging all the skilled labour to the project. Why shouldn't he get paid more? If the other guy is bringing something didnt to rhe take it may be different but thay doesn't sub to be the case here


ManicMakerStudios

Because he doesn't get paid more. If the guy doing the work is getting paid up front, the guy providing the money as ramping his cut to make up for it. Nobody fronts the money to make something happen without quietly making it worth their while on the back end. You're falling into the same trap every employee falls into...thinking a wage is better than a stake.


kodiak931156

You say "he didnt gat paid more" like it's an industry standard or a rule. Which it very much is not. He absolutely can be paid mote Whether or not it's a viable contract would come down to exactly what both parties are providing. Many contacts are made in the real world with both front end and back end payouts


OnYourMomBTW

maybe like 15 - 20 percent but if it's free i would say like 5-10$ for each our you worked on it.


MeaningfulChoices

If you are capable of building a mobile game to a production-ready state (which includes supporting multiple resolutions, meeting all of the platform requirements, properly integrating ads/IAP, and so on) within a few days and would consider charging $5-10 per hour than you are undervaluing your own work by an order of magnitude.


OnYourMomBTW

well maybe it's just me but i would feel bad charging my friends more than 10 bucks but i guess if they cant appreciate the hard work and dedication to the game you're probs right


ManicMakerStudios

Nobody asks their friends to work for free. If a friend is asking you to do something that will be sold for profit, they'd better cut you in somehow or they're taking advantage of you.


ConcealedCarryLemon

https://youtube.com/watch?v=VPLC-AtbeB4


biXeneXib

Charge as much as you want to make it worth your while, as in hours spent that you could use on something else and taking your experience into account (what he would pay from a company for comparison). It's better to say no to something than to sit and struggle with churning something out. (but I think that might just get more and more difficult with age, and could be easy enough if you are young)


Pyxidus_

I’d take the minimum hourly wage for wherever you’re from and see what it comes out to be when you’re done. If it seems unfair to either yourself or your friend, increase or decrease it from there. For example, the minimum wage where I’m from is around $13 an hour. If I spent 10 hours working on the game, the total would be $130. I personally wouldn’t make my friend pay $130, so I would lower it a bit. But it all depends on the time you put in and how much you like/don’t like your friend lol


codethulu

Value your time however you wish.


Swedge_Matthews

Right but this is my first time developing a game as a comission, so I'm looking at what a fair but nice pay would be