So glad I read this. Have been very gradually noticing everything you listed above without knowing why any of it’s been happening.
Have been seeing more and more of your contributions in this sub and I’m particularly glad this advice came from someone who’s opinion I’ve grown to respect.
Thank you for this and all the rest.
I also learned something new from your post. Actually, everything new. I'm about six months into lifting and I kind of did a beginner workout when I first started out in October, but only for a few weeks and not 12-16 like you said. Right now, I am seeing slow growth. Do you think that this is a result of not training like a beginner back in October and that I can somehow fix that right now? Or should I just keep doing what I'm doing and stay consistent until I see results?
Glad you learned something dude.
If you started training in Oct, that's about 12 to 16 weeks ago. I would expect growth to slow down now. But your last sentence makes it sound like you are seeing no growth rather than slow growth
Well, it depends on the time frame we are talking about. Recently, yes I have seen no visual growth. My weight is creeping up ever so slightly. It definitely FEELS like zero growth, but I can't say that if my scale is telling me otherwise. I have been eating more since I noticed the decline, but now I'm starting to wonder if that weight I'm putting on is FAT, and not muscle. Thanks so much for your contributions to this sub by the way.
I appreciate the kind words dude.
> Recently, yes I have seen no visual growth
Visual growth doesn't tend to occur that rapidly. This makes sense. Think about it: imagine 2lbs of ground beef as 2lbs of muscle. Think about if you were to take 2lbs of ground beef and apply it evenly across your body. It would barely spread out. A 2lb gain will not result in any significant visual impact. Observing visual growth will require a large delta between start and finish in order to facilitate the sort of weight gain that causes such growth.
For surefire fixes for stagnation, I'm a big fan of Super Squats and Jon Andersen's Deep Water program.
Good stuff as usual hombre.
I really really enjoyed seeing everyone's progress here on Super Squats - and it's a great beginner program, for the trainee who already has some experience moving their body through space with weight attached. If I were running, say, a high school weight room, I would probably get everyone started on something like [Phrak's Greyskull](https://thefitness.wiki/routines/r-fitness-basic-beginner-routine/) and hand out copies of Super Squats, explaining to everyone that at the beginning of the second marking period, we would switch from the 5x5 program to mandatory eating and squatting time.
Thanks man! I LOVE that idea. I'm a big fan of Jim's approach here as well
https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101085062-2016-help-a-friend-get-stronger
Pavel Tastouline also had a pretty solid beginner program in "Beyond Bodybuilding", and Paul Kelso laid out something solid in "Powerlifting Basics Texas Style". There's really SO many good ways to approach it. It's a shame so many duds out there prey on beginners because they're an easy demographic. They over-complicate the simplest training phase just to make a buck, and the result is a lack of success.
Part of me thinks a great "joining of forces" would be take that 6 month protocol from Jim, then link in Super Squats, then the 6 month gainit plan. Over a full year of training. Magic! Haha.
Definitely. If I had to do it again, I'd definitely do the typical 5x5 program then Super Squats followed by BtM, and pretty much run 5x531 or FSL between both BtM and Super Squats
I'd love if you could expand on
> This means, during the initial phase of training, one is simply not coordinated enough to properly stress muscles to the point of generating the necessary degree of fatigue that would necessitate a caloric surplus to recover from training, nor is it enough to signal to the body a high demand to create more muscle.
For me it's been a while since I was first knocking out shaky quarter reps of squats on my first weeks in the gym, but I certainly recall them causing me a significant level of fatigue and soreness. (Mind you, I was starting at 6'4" and a base of around 130lb or so)
Getting healthier for me would have involved eating a surplus, workout or not, but it's hard for me to imagine training alongside it did not at least tip the scales in favor of muscle growth rather than general accumulation of fat.
I totally agree with this post from the perspective of training looking way different at the beginner stages and not _necessitating_ eating upfront, but for my case it seemed to be very helpful to ramp up eating and training in tandem (I had to get better at both!)
> I was starting at 6'4" and a base of around 130lb or so
I think there's a distinction between
- "bulking" in the context of strength training (especially for someone who does not have any background of physical activity and has generally lived a sedentary existence), and
- eating enough food not to be clinically underweight
The intuitive thing to me would be that whether or not strength training is providing enough stimulus to signal the body to grow muscle as a beginner would be highly individualized - based on your baseline physicality, athletic background, genetics, etc. I'd expect difficult training to provoke the same physiological response in anybody, and based on my own experience I found training difficult from the get-go (in ways that are at least similar to how I experience volume now).
Is there any data out there informing what a caloric surplus does for beginner strength trainers that you know of? Or is your recommendation based on qualitative observations that beginner lifters struggle to train with appropriate volumes and therefore shouldn't worry about eating at the start?
>Is there any data out there informing what a caloric surplus does for beginner strength trainers that you know of?
I honestly have no idea. I don't have any interest in exercise science.
>Or is your recommendation based on qualitative observations that beginner lifters struggle to train with appropriate volumes and therefore shouldn't worry about eating at the start?
It's not about appropriate volumes but about inability to generate enough stress to place a demand on the body to promote a growth response. Fatigue is generated simply out of exhaustion, rather than by stressing the muscles to the point of creating this demand. It's similar to watching a trainee "train to failure" wherein they simply lose the ability to grind through a rep, vs watching an experienced trainee continue grinding reps DEEP into a period of overreaching.
[I go to this as my personal example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19n-SjPQ590)
A young trainee would not be able to grind those last 4 reps in the manner that I did. And, in many cases, can't even hold technique past the first 5, which is why so many beginner programs are based around 5 rep sets.
You're a beast man, that was seriously impressive!
If I can offer some perspective from someone who is a fraction of your size and puts up numbers nowhere close to yours, training to failure has been the lynchpin of my training. I now have a fairly average build (130->210->~185 atm, somewhat lean) that won't impress anyone in the weightroom or at the beach, but I'm much healthier on the whole and aspire to put in the work to get proper big and strong in the next few years (which I hope is in the spirit of /r/gainit).
Having said that, my moderated approach to lifting combined with eating from the get-go seems to have consistently built muscle throughout my journey, even if it's not as fast or as much as it likely could have been. If you showed me a picture of where I'm at now when I started my journey, I'd have been over the moon so I tend to think of other newbies browsing this sub that might be starting off from a similar place as me.
So my perspective is that it seems like here as with most things there are gradients - I do hope some of the folks reading your post are able to follow in your footsteps and gain at their limits!
Appreciate you sharing that my dude. I'm the opposite: I pretty much NEVER go to failure in training. I honestly can't imagine doing that regularly. Squatting along would be exhausting. I'd have to let the bar crash into the pins, take all the weight off, rack the bar, and then reload all the plates for multiple sets. I'd piss off the Mrs, as she's asleep when I train, and be wiped out, haha.
The reason most people don't train until failure on a regular basis is that it's terribly hard on your body. Most people will not be able to recover from that style of training day in and day over a long period of time.
I think I'm terrible at heavy low rep sets and naturally better at grinding lighter high rep sets - I think some people call that fast twitch and slow twitch lifters - but it's definitely a skill one develops with time.
Deep Water Advanced with those amraps was my favorite for developing the ability to dig.
Your various conditioning workouts are also great at teaching that skill.
I think hard gainers here would benefit from having a dedicated conditioning day to learn what it's like to be hungry. Sort of a conditioning party for the whole sub.
> When you hit that stall, it doesn’t matter what number your lifts are at: you’ve demonstrated that you’re as far along as your skill will carry your CURRENT potential. Some trainees will have more potential than other, due to a combination of previous athletic background, genetic predisposition, height, weight, etc.
Amen. Social media has been horrible for people’s mental health in this regard. I’ve seen one too many younger trainee feel inadequate because they can’t bench the plates right away or they’re not ripped within the first 6 months or they don’t immediately have big glutes or thighs. Everybody’s potential is different. That, and far too many people who post their “natty” rapid gains online aren’t being completely honest or transparent. There are a lot of high schoolers at my gym and they tell me it’s a very real problem.
> If you’re going to manipulate nutrition during this time, use it as an opportunity to improve food QUALITY over quantity.
This is great advice especially for younger trainees. Implementing good nutritional habits at an earlier age will pay dividends down the road. I **wish** younger me would’ve known better to eat healthy versus dreamer dirty bulking.
Great post!
If my intention is to gain fat as well as muscle (severely underweight) and I'm at the very beginning of Allpros Beginner routine, should I still load up with the un needed calories?
I'm 31, 5'6" and 106lbs, male. I'm up four pounds from my first attempt at this in December.
Typically, when bulking, one's aim is to gain muscle and they accept the fat that comes with it, rather than aiming to gain fat specifically.
[Here is a case of someone specifically aiming to gain fat](https://www.elitefts.com/education/training/elitefts-classic-so-you-want-to-gain-weight/) alongside muscle.
Absolutely dude! There's so much out there in that regard
https://www.elitefts.com/education/nutrition/efs-classic-captian-of-the-cups/
https://www.elitefts.com/coaching-logs/7-oreo-bulking-tips/
I'm 6'2 160. I was 154 3 months ago but have gained 6 pounds due to working out 5 days a week and eating slightly above my maintenance calories. Would you consider this a bulk then or no? My diet has been relatively clean but not strict at all
I honestly think so, this has been the first time I've been really committed. In the past I have always worked out for 1 or 2 months before quitting because I got lazy. Now I've been the most motivated and its been going well as my lifts continue to increase. I was adding 5 lbs every 1-2 weeks if I was getting the reps easily in for progressive overload. Should I still be doing this progressive overload strategy or should I be going slower with the weight increase?
What if I went to the gym for 3 years continuously for 4 days a week, but took a break for 5 months, and lost some weight and muscle.
I need to put on some pounds before the summer, so i think a quick bulk and then a cut should help speed up some gains by 3 months time.
If you have to ask if advice aimed at beginners is meant for you...
We can play the what if game all day. In the end, this post is not an ultimatum you need adhere to. Assess your situation, make the best decision(s) to achieve your goals and wants, then take the appropriate action(s).
If you don't want to leverage OP's experience, use your own.
I prefer dirty bulking to be honest and then starving myself until I get abs. I really don’t care about progression I just want to bang some hoes this summer and look good with my shirt off
At the risk of taking Mythical's initial analogy too far - it's fun to be able to walk around a beach looking like the sand-kicker in the old Atlas advertisements as a general side effect of long-term effort, rather than having to do things like eat four McDoubles a day for two months and then nothing for a month to have a mediocre physique.
I'm pushing back on this a bit for the benefit of the subreddit audience - you do you man. I suspect that this is a process that won't seem nearly as attractive as you get older (and I'm going to venture a guess that you're in your 20s or early 30s now, ha ha).
Sounds like a reasonable take. I think by bulking hard right away you're putting your short term goals above the long term. When I was 145 lbs at almost 6'2" I basically just wanted to be bigger in general and didn't care if some of it was fat. I'd eat like 600 calories of cake for breakfast and stuff. But I was starting out with an okay layer of muscle compared to some people here - I could already do pull ups and bench press like 135 and stuff. In hindsight now at 195 lbs I sometimes wish I'd taken it a little slower on the bulking because I do have probably an extra 20 lbs of fat or so. (I think I'd be an absolutely ripped 175lbs with the muscle mass I have).
So yeah, I think you're right, but it also sucks to weigh 145 lbs at 6'2" so I don't really blame my past self or new people for trying to pack on the pounds right away.
Appreciate that sentiment dude! There's nothing wrong with wanting to put weight on quick: but I feel there's a distinction between "bulking" and "overfeeding", in terms of intention.
Great post but some of the comments seem to be overlooking one point.
You will still gain muscle starting off even if you’re not eating at a surplus. Everyone has protein in their daily diet and most of it is going to waste because they aren’t working out. Once you start working out your body will divert that unused protein into muscle growth.
You won’t gain weight, but you will start developing your muscles which will be visually apparent to a degree.
Op’s post doesn’t mean you won’t gain muscle (albeit small amounts compared to bulking later on), you just need to focus on your foundation before you can start adding bricks.
Specifically, I'm speaking to the idea of forcing muscular growth via overfeeding (bulking). There's no need to manipulate nutrition that early in the training process: that comes when one can no longer process ABSENT said manipulation.
This just seems like you're looking to redefine things based on your own experience? While I agree most newbies likely benefit more from recomping than bulking, bulking is literally people expecting to gain fat and muscle with the intent of being able to gain more strength or muscle more quickly. This can be experienced lifters or newbie lightweights. Your labelling of it as basically over-eating doesn't seem any different from this. It also presumes that fat gain is always bad - it's not over eating if the person does not have enough fat to maintain essential functions (ex. amenorrhea) or prefers this aesthetically. I feel like recomping is the word you're looking for for billing and you're calling bulking over eating. Can you explain?
(Basically bulking is by definition over eating, eating beyond caloric expandicture, for the purpose of muscle or strength gain, so your definitions seem redundant. ETA I do agree with the main point that bulking is not ideal for most beginners given most are looking for fat loss or recomposition.)
I actually don't feel beginners should recomp. For those 12-16 weeks I'm discussing, I feel the focus should just be on learning HOW to train. I like improving food quality during that time, but I wouldn't anticipate any significant physique changes.
I've written on MANY occasions about fat gain not being bad.
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/10y2uwl/stop_eating_like_a_bodybuilder_start_eating_like/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/yhlhc7/dont_worry_about_overeating_worry_about/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/wpz9xn/fear_of_getting_fat_is_admitting_that_you_do_not/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/vxfney/the_holy_text_and_patron_saints_of_rgainit_3/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/t5vgee/oh_my_god_you_arent_getting_fat_a_discussion/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/rrac8x/physical_transformation_is_an_uncomfortable/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/r0mr9s/tnations_the_cure_for_skinny_roundtable/
https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/qg85zd/minimizing_fat_gain_is_sabotaging_your_muscle/
Hopefully that helps clarify my position!
Ahh I see! I figure form first and recomp typically comes with that, all other lifestyle variables being the same. Thanks for explaining, I think I misunderstood your original point.
(ETA: Not huge changes, but anyone going from sedentary to regular lifting with good form and consistency is likely to see some positive changes.)
Cheers! Is your point that physique shouldn't be the goal or that it can't improve in that timeline? (And thanks for your clarifying on all this! I'm a bit dense and appreciate it, my last question/comment ha.)
Always happy to discuss dude.
Physique can absolutely be the goal, but expectations must be managed. When one is in a state of physical learning, I would not expect much in the way of physical change. If it happens: outstanding. If it doesn't" no matter. We've been out of shape our whole lives up to this point: 12-16 more weeks of it won't be bad.
This completely reflects my personal experience. I didn't know what "training hard" truly meant until I was months in. The large amounts of food I was eating in those first few months were probably not being put to good use and likely why I gained more fat than intended. Overall, not the worst thing to happen, but if I were to go back in time I'd focus more on the actual training.
I know I’ll probably catch some flak for mentioning this but, these reasons you listed are the very reason I bought a smart home gym, it slowly progressed me up to a good heavy lifting cycle
I love the "use it as an opportunity to improve food QUALITY over quantity". Anyway, I never really understood why anyone would do bulking/cutting, and not try to maintain a balanced diet through the whole journey. Maybe I don't see the whole picture because I have always been skinny, but still, it seems to make sense to form a habit of eating the right amount of food, and stick with it. What am I missing?
Glad you enjoyed it dude.
The reason for bulking and cutting is because, when training hard, one NEEDS calories to recover from the hard training. This results in muscular gains. This hard training cannot be sustained indefinitely, so in periods of time where the training intensity is reduced, one needs less food, which results in a cut.
Training is periodizaed, and with it, so is nutrition.
Some good reading on training periodization
https://www.elitefts.com/education/training/efs-classic-the-periodization-bible/
https://www.t-nation.com/training/training-clarity-one-goal-at-a-time/
You are quoting things I have written but not explaining where the contradiction is. You must forgive me, but I see these as complimentary posts. Would you be willing to discuss?
That's quite an accusation there my dude. I'm wanting to have a discussion with you.
Now that you have blocked me, you must forgive me if I perceive this interaction to mean you never approached it with an honest attempt to want to have a dialog or reach an understanding.
> trolling
This is pretty silly. He gives an extraordinary amount of free time actively trying to help people. What you are interpreting as his attempts to waste your time are actual invitations to engage, or genuine disagreement with your premise.
There's no requirement that you agree with someone. Getting upset at their refusal to argue isn't going to bring you to a consensus.
This is extremely helpful. Thank you for preventing me from diving headfirst into a bad nutrition plan when I’m very early in my journey.
I’ve also never considered the fact that I’m not yet coordinated enough to properly work my muscles, and I think I’ve forgotten that the POINT of exercise is to be fatigued at the end of it, rather than simply checking off however many reps at however much weight. Much to think about, thanks!
Happy to hear it dude! That "human" aspect of exercise is often overlooked. People get so caught up in reps and sets that they forget that those are simply a prescription for hard work.
I disagree because I feel like most underweight newbies will prefer the look of some fluff with the new muscle gains, myself included. And there isn’t a large skill gap for most assistance exercises in my opinion.
>And there isn’t a large skill gap for most assistance exercises in my opinion.
If you're part of the target audience, low skill assistance work should be so far down your list of priorities that it's debatable if it should even be on your list of things to train. Time spent curling, leg pressing, or doing single joint/machine movements etc. is taking time from learning the pushup, press, squat, bench, dead, row, pullup, etc. A trainee that can't execute a proper pushup or goblet squat has no business trying to accelerate weight gain and train high volume. While I agree that being willing to accept fluff can be exactly what a trainee needs when they do gain, trying to add two separate stressors isn't going to contribute positively to their outcomes. They need to gain the skill in the moneymakers first.
It's awesome to disagree dude: that's what makes the world interesting :) If this doesn't apply to you, don't apply it. But I've seen enough trainees that got disappointing from this approach that I felt it was worth explaining.
I don't find assistance exercises good drivers for muscle growth myself.
definitely see the point in saying that for a while, progress on big compound lifts will be mostly neurological gains and may not benefit as much from a massive caloric surplus.
my question would be if that still holds true if you backfill your sessions with "dumber" isolation/hypertrophy work. ie. a beginner doing their basic 5x5 and then going to town on leg presses, chest supported rows, hamstring curls, machine chest presses, lateral raises etc
I wouldn't see a need to eat a caloric surplus to support a bunch of assistance work like that. Typically, that backilling of volume approach is something I'd do during periods of weight LOSS rather than gain, primarily BECAUSE I'm not able to muster enough energy to push the main work hard enough to grow. In that instance, I'm just signaling a demand tot he body to maintain as much muscle as possible.
As someone who has been a hard gainer all of my life and has began to crack through it over the last year I couldn’t agree more. Also seen other stuff you’ve posted on here and I really appreciate seeing stuff from someone who I look up to
I’m a beginner and I’ve been running a PPL split for about 8 weeks. My bench press feels like I’m reaching a plateau now. I started by just barely managing 45lb and I added 5lb every session. Now I’m stuck at 80lb Does this mean it’s time to deload or am I doing something else wrong (like eating or sleeping)
Sorry for bad formatting, I’m on mobile.
6ft 0 inch. Started at 130lb, now weighing 140lb. The split I’m on is Pull Push Legs Rest - Repeat (so the rest days are different every week). On each day I have one compound followed by accessories. For example push day could be:
Bench Press - 5 x 6 - 8 reps
Incline DB Press - 3 x 8 - 12 reps
DB Lateral Raise - 3 x 8 - 12 reps
DB overhead press - 3 x 8 - 12 reps (usually have no juice in the tank for this tho, feels way too difficult sometimes I just leave it out)
Tricep rope pushdown - 3 x 8 - 12 reps
Skullcrushers - 3 x 8 - 12 reps
And for mind muscle connection, a couple reps of light cable chest flies if I have extra time
I don't see any need for a beginner to train like that. Or most folks in general. If just starting, I like the plan Jim Wendler laid out here
https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101085062-2016-help-a-friend-get-stronger
Do you know how to perform the barbell squat, deadlift and press overhead?
I know how to perform the squat and deadlift but I’m too weak to do more than 3 reps on the barbell overhead press. May I ask what specifically is not great about this split (is it inefficient, or overtraining etc). I’ve been running it for about 8 weeks and I’m worried about just suddenly changing to a different split, but I’ll give the link a look still. Maybe if it’s overtraining that’s why my bench press has stalled at 80? Occasionally, (like once a month) I forgo the rest day and train every day in a 7 day period.
True that it’s not as effective anymore. Do you have any idea why this could be the case though (I’m just curious). Should I still be expecting linear progression at this stage?
I feel like Chase Karnes outlines some good critiques here
https://www.elitefts.com/education/novice/how-to-stay-small-and-weak/
>Because your base of strength is so low as a beginner, we want to make sure we are doing enough volume that you are forced to use even lighter weight. We don’t want any adaption response from the body getting bigger or stronger; we just want to burn a ton of calories and get a sweet pump. We want to do stuff like hit failure on incline dumbbell presses on our drop sets that start with 30-pound dumbbells and end with 15-pound dumbbells. Why train three days a week if you can train six days a week? We don’t want to have time to rest and recover, and we want to keep burning maximum calories, because burning calories is trendy.
Is it fair to say that as a beginner, basically just eat when you're hungry and eat just enough to satisfy that hunger as your body will naturally crave the amount of food that you need to repair your muscles and grow?
I would not say it's fair to say that, because I find hunger to vary by individual.
I am always hungry. I have a voracious appetite. I have been full 3 times in my life. If I eat based on hunger, I will be VERY overweight. Others can have so little appetite that they never eat.
Ha, I definitely fall in the latter camp. I tend to feel full pretty quick when eating, so it's hard to know if i'm eating enough. I've only just started, but I do feel like i'm a bit hungrier than normal so i've been trying to basically just eat enough to satiate that without having to force down food.
From the OP it seems like this is an okay approach?
From the OP, for the first 12-16 weeks of training, I'd focus on improving food QUALITY while getting in the regular training. I'd make it a goal to go a full 12 weeks without skipping a single workout and meeting 90% of my meals.
I remember reading a study that supported this! There is a big difference between single and multi joint movements though. A new trainee will become more efficient on a preacher curl than on a barbell squat given the same amount of time. The logical conclusion is that simpler movements are going to start building muscle faster.
This doesn't just apply to brand new trainees either, it applies to any new movements or old exercises you haven't done in a long time. The so-called *stabilizers* are just motor neurons learning, no different than doing a new exercise, or going back to an exercise after a long break. As with all skill based things, it's a lot quicker to pick it back up than pick it up for the first time.
Thanks for the read, I happen to think about this whenever I decide to learn new exercises.
You can learn how to jab in an afternoon? You can maybe learn what a jab is in an afternoon lol, but it takes months or even years of practice to develop a good jab.
Just being nit picky, good post.
Man, I even already have a monk vs barbarian one too. It helps to remember that boxing is the art of hitting someone while not getting it. People sometimes forget that, haha.
What if you have an extremely high metabolism? I work out 4 nights a week, for about 1.5-2 hours, and consume (or attempt to) about 3.5k calories a day. I still am struggling to gain weight. I’m nearly 5’8”, and weight about 145 lbs. I have two bartending/serving jobs, and work about 8 6 hour shifts a week that I am on my feet for nearly the whole time.
I mean I started in January and trained consistently for maybe a month and a half but I haven’t been active for the majority of March and the second half of February
In your own post above you acknowledge that you attempt to eat 3500 calories. I suspect that if you start logging your intake you will find that you are not hitting that consistently.
I mean I eat three meals a day and I always do my best to make or order things with the most protein/calories possible, plus a 1250 cal protein shake at the end of the day after my workout. I have to consistently be hitting AT LEAST 3k a day.
> I have to
Beats me - impossible to truly know without tracking.
But, even if you do have a really, unusually fast metabolism, the trick is the same as for anyone else: put more food in your face hole.
It does not matter what you do as a pure beginner in the gym, if you are in a caloric surplus you will gain muscle assuming you are generating some minute level of mechanical tension.
This advice just leaves noobs wishing they would have eaten. Instead wasting their first few months spinning their wheels working on 'form and skills'.
Like you said, muscle needs fuel to be created. What happens when these new guys energy expenditure goes through the roof and their body is screaming for caloric intake?
Sorry but this thread is a 4/10 at best, whilst it has niche application, its not overreaching advice.
I've coached around 40 absolute beginners and the ones who see the most success strength and physique wise are those who eat.
The exception is morbidly obese 140kg+
This is my experiencem
So I've been pretty active throughout most of my life. I did all sorts of sports before high school and then swam all through high school and also took lifting classes where I learned the very basics of weight lifting. I'm 20 now. Last year, my first year in college, myself and some friends got into going to the campus gym and I intentionally ate a calorie surplus and noticed pretty quick growth. Maybe 10-15 pounds of mostly muscle in 2-3 weeks.
I lost motivation because of a situation with a girl and stopped working out for almost a year, but now my roommate and I are starting to get into it. He's a complete beginner and wants to learn a bit from me.
I'm 5'10" and like 140 and overall still pretty muscular. Would you say intentionally bulking is a bad decision for me right now? And would you say my bulk last year was also a poor decision?
I mean I think my bulking had an overall positive effect. I liked the muscle I gained and was feeling more confident.
But the reason why I asked is because I would normally consider myself a beginner and you seem to be more experienced. Though after typing out my comment, I suppose I do have a good bit of experience
I already read a lot of gym info but thats the first time I read something like this.
So maybe I am not crazy, I gained mostly fat with my bulk. In one year of gym my strength stopped progressing maybe 4 or 5 months ago. And that was just my mind/body conection growing, I probably didnt even gained muscle after this period of adaptation because I didnt get more strength.
To be honest I gained a bit of strength but not the 5lbs every week I see on internet
But the additional calories shouldnt make me gain more strenght ?
Anyway my routine was basically what people call on internet "bro split". It is 4 days a week. It have 8 exercises a day, 4x10 repetitions each. Then my gym Instructor change to 5x8 repetitions.
The gym Instructor gave me this routine so I thougth she knew was she was doing.
Additional calories don't make you gain more strength: they facilitate strength gains. YOU have to make you gain more strength, and this comes from consistently pushing beyond your current abilities.
It sounds like that trainer gave you a routine, but you need a program.
A routine is something you do every day. You brush your teeth as part of your daily routine. A program builds up to something.
You went to school every day as part of a routine, but your school had you enrolled in an academic program. When you were done with the program, you had achieved the goal of a higher educaiton.
A lifting program is similar. It will have a routine element to it (something you do frequently), but ALSO include a model of progression so that you build to something.
On top of food quality, if you have any suspicions of stomach problems sort them out ASAP. Bulking felt impossible to me before I figured out I shouldn’t eat dairy or gluten. Malabsorption hindered me along with pain and discomfort from eating foods my body did not like. Once these issues were sorted I’ve bulked up 17 pounds with relative ease and comfort.
Also for me, just eating when I was hungry would NOT be enough to be in a caloric surplus. I have a naturally small appetite and can easily ignore/forget to eat. I just did not feel very hungry very often. I HAD to pre make and weigh snacks, and eat when I wasn’t hungry just to hit calories. Yes overall I was hungrier, but not nearly hungry enough to see significant progress. Now I’m finally at the point where eating my 3,150 cals a day feels normal and comfortable, but it took a long time to get there.
Great post I enjoyed reading it, well done!
This was an amazing read (as a bit of a beginner myself--on week 8 of my current program, finally taking things seriously). Halfway to the 16 week mark!
Can agree from experience with this post: started stronglifts with the bar for all lifts, did half GOMAD, gained 17kgs in a year but also just got fat. Really took some time doing more holistic programming lime 531 to understand what training hard and putting in effort is, and also that you need to earn those calories
Well, I'm in a kinda complicated situation. See, I don't have any equipment, No barbell, no dumbbells, no pull-up bar.
Also, I have no money for a gym and it's too cold for outside workout.
All I'm saying is, does anyone have a callisthenics(I think that's what it calls) routine, please?
P.s.: I tried to start building muscles 2 years ago and few times before that, but my mental state didn't allow that happening.
What about if you’re fairly comfortable with the techniques but are physiologically untrained. E.g. if a relatively trained individual was coming back after a long layoff due to injury
I don't see why such an individual would need to eat a surplus of calories to Progress at that point. Growth should occur rapidly as they body relearns the movements
In a way, I have to disagree
For me, I JUST started training (will also be boxing soon too) at the gym, and I want to gain weight and get to 140-144 (currently 128). Ever since I started going to the gym, I’ve been hungrier than before, I’m craving food. So, as a beginner, I do have that same sensation.
I mean, I feel like reason that you could be way hungrier is just because your activity levels are higher. Whether or not you worked out hard enough to tear up your muscle fibers, and thus create an opportunity for anabolism, going from a lifestyle of not exercising, and hitting the gym, to a lifestyle of exercising and hitting the gym, is going to guarantee to translate into a higher total daily energy expenditure. This, of course will make you hungrier.
It would be no different than if you spent the whole day loading boxes into a moving truck to help your friend move to a new apartment, or if you played soccer all day, or if you went on a hike with your friends in the hills. Physical activity costs calories
Earlier this week I had this realization, although I had not formulated it. Today I formulated it. And then this evening, I found this post, which basically confirms all of my reasoning as sound.
Basically, I ran a linear progression strength program (GZCLP - r/GZCLP) a few months ago, for 50 days in a row without rest days, and my lifts all doubled, but I plateaued, and then my lifts started to get harder and harder. I realized something was wrong - I wasn’t taking rest days. Eventually I got injured, and then I stopped GZCLP, and it took me a while to regain my habit of hitting the gym frequently. Several months passed.
Recently, I hired a personal trainer and told him about my past experience with GZCLP as well as a trainer from years ago (hired a PT to teach me to squat, deadlift, OHP and bench correctly; worked w/ him for 2 months), and I told him I wanted to focus on body building and just learning how to actually make my muscles grow. So far working with this trainer has been a success; I actually leave the gym pumped and sore where I’m supposed to be, every time now. And I now have the skills to reflect on my workouts and plan what to tackle the hardest in each upcoming one.
And then earlier this week I realized, I’m never going to get big if I don’t eat big. But at the same time, I thought, if I eat big, I better damn well be lifting weights correctly, or all it’ll do is make me fat. And, as of a few days ago, I just decided, “I know how to lift weights good enough now”. So I put some trust in myself and started my first bulk ever.
I lifted weights in high school like many teenage boys do. And I lifted off and on in college but without any idea what I was doing. Years later as an adult I would go to the gym for months at a time but again, had no idea what I was doing. It was only half a year ago or so that I tried an actual program (GZCLP), for which I saw massive strength (but not size, because I wasn’t resting enough nor eating enough) gains. And it was only a month or two ago that I started push pull legs (PPL).
In all my “years” of lifting, whether it be off and on, with a trainer, winging it or following a program, I’ve never felt like I’ve gotten more out of my gym sessions than I do now. And I feel like they get better every week too, thanks to my constant learning and self reflection. So it’s only now that I’ve finally gained enough trust in myself to do something “crazy” like bulking.
It’s really nice to see you put down everything I’ve been thinking into words! I totally agree with you. In my opinion (and yours too I believe), bulking is like playing with fire. If you don’t know what you’re doing, you’ll get burned / fat. But if you know what you’re doing… Well, just about every “mythos of mankind” story starts with “man harnessed the power of fire”
So glad I read this. Have been very gradually noticing everything you listed above without knowing why any of it’s been happening. Have been seeing more and more of your contributions in this sub and I’m particularly glad this advice came from someone who’s opinion I’ve grown to respect. Thank you for this and all the rest.
Hey thanks for much for saying all that dude! Hope you're on a solid path forward.
I also learned something new from your post. Actually, everything new. I'm about six months into lifting and I kind of did a beginner workout when I first started out in October, but only for a few weeks and not 12-16 like you said. Right now, I am seeing slow growth. Do you think that this is a result of not training like a beginner back in October and that I can somehow fix that right now? Or should I just keep doing what I'm doing and stay consistent until I see results?
Glad you learned something dude. If you started training in Oct, that's about 12 to 16 weeks ago. I would expect growth to slow down now. But your last sentence makes it sound like you are seeing no growth rather than slow growth
Well, it depends on the time frame we are talking about. Recently, yes I have seen no visual growth. My weight is creeping up ever so slightly. It definitely FEELS like zero growth, but I can't say that if my scale is telling me otherwise. I have been eating more since I noticed the decline, but now I'm starting to wonder if that weight I'm putting on is FAT, and not muscle. Thanks so much for your contributions to this sub by the way.
I appreciate the kind words dude. > Recently, yes I have seen no visual growth Visual growth doesn't tend to occur that rapidly. This makes sense. Think about it: imagine 2lbs of ground beef as 2lbs of muscle. Think about if you were to take 2lbs of ground beef and apply it evenly across your body. It would barely spread out. A 2lb gain will not result in any significant visual impact. Observing visual growth will require a large delta between start and finish in order to facilitate the sort of weight gain that causes such growth. For surefire fixes for stagnation, I'm a big fan of Super Squats and Jon Andersen's Deep Water program.
Thanks again.
Good stuff as usual hombre. I really really enjoyed seeing everyone's progress here on Super Squats - and it's a great beginner program, for the trainee who already has some experience moving their body through space with weight attached. If I were running, say, a high school weight room, I would probably get everyone started on something like [Phrak's Greyskull](https://thefitness.wiki/routines/r-fitness-basic-beginner-routine/) and hand out copies of Super Squats, explaining to everyone that at the beginning of the second marking period, we would switch from the 5x5 program to mandatory eating and squatting time.
Thanks man! I LOVE that idea. I'm a big fan of Jim's approach here as well https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101085062-2016-help-a-friend-get-stronger Pavel Tastouline also had a pretty solid beginner program in "Beyond Bodybuilding", and Paul Kelso laid out something solid in "Powerlifting Basics Texas Style". There's really SO many good ways to approach it. It's a shame so many duds out there prey on beginners because they're an easy demographic. They over-complicate the simplest training phase just to make a buck, and the result is a lack of success. Part of me thinks a great "joining of forces" would be take that 6 month protocol from Jim, then link in Super Squats, then the 6 month gainit plan. Over a full year of training. Magic! Haha.
Definitely. If I had to do it again, I'd definitely do the typical 5x5 program then Super Squats followed by BtM, and pretty much run 5x531 or FSL between both BtM and Super Squats
> we would switch from the 5x5 program to mandatory eating and squatting time Meaning... they would eat between sets? Or am I just reading that wrong
It's going to be at an agricultural school. Go lie under a cow after breathing squats and get fresh milk. I'm gonna be famous.
GOMAS - gallon of milk a set
Add to that Milo calf carries for extra growth
I'd love if you could expand on > This means, during the initial phase of training, one is simply not coordinated enough to properly stress muscles to the point of generating the necessary degree of fatigue that would necessitate a caloric surplus to recover from training, nor is it enough to signal to the body a high demand to create more muscle. For me it's been a while since I was first knocking out shaky quarter reps of squats on my first weeks in the gym, but I certainly recall them causing me a significant level of fatigue and soreness. (Mind you, I was starting at 6'4" and a base of around 130lb or so) Getting healthier for me would have involved eating a surplus, workout or not, but it's hard for me to imagine training alongside it did not at least tip the scales in favor of muscle growth rather than general accumulation of fat. I totally agree with this post from the perspective of training looking way different at the beginner stages and not _necessitating_ eating upfront, but for my case it seemed to be very helpful to ramp up eating and training in tandem (I had to get better at both!)
> I was starting at 6'4" and a base of around 130lb or so I think there's a distinction between - "bulking" in the context of strength training (especially for someone who does not have any background of physical activity and has generally lived a sedentary existence), and - eating enough food not to be clinically underweight
I'd love to expand on it my dude. What would you like be to discuss?
The intuitive thing to me would be that whether or not strength training is providing enough stimulus to signal the body to grow muscle as a beginner would be highly individualized - based on your baseline physicality, athletic background, genetics, etc. I'd expect difficult training to provoke the same physiological response in anybody, and based on my own experience I found training difficult from the get-go (in ways that are at least similar to how I experience volume now). Is there any data out there informing what a caloric surplus does for beginner strength trainers that you know of? Or is your recommendation based on qualitative observations that beginner lifters struggle to train with appropriate volumes and therefore shouldn't worry about eating at the start?
>Is there any data out there informing what a caloric surplus does for beginner strength trainers that you know of? I honestly have no idea. I don't have any interest in exercise science. >Or is your recommendation based on qualitative observations that beginner lifters struggle to train with appropriate volumes and therefore shouldn't worry about eating at the start? It's not about appropriate volumes but about inability to generate enough stress to place a demand on the body to promote a growth response. Fatigue is generated simply out of exhaustion, rather than by stressing the muscles to the point of creating this demand. It's similar to watching a trainee "train to failure" wherein they simply lose the ability to grind through a rep, vs watching an experienced trainee continue grinding reps DEEP into a period of overreaching. [I go to this as my personal example](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19n-SjPQ590) A young trainee would not be able to grind those last 4 reps in the manner that I did. And, in many cases, can't even hold technique past the first 5, which is why so many beginner programs are based around 5 rep sets.
You're a beast man, that was seriously impressive! If I can offer some perspective from someone who is a fraction of your size and puts up numbers nowhere close to yours, training to failure has been the lynchpin of my training. I now have a fairly average build (130->210->~185 atm, somewhat lean) that won't impress anyone in the weightroom or at the beach, but I'm much healthier on the whole and aspire to put in the work to get proper big and strong in the next few years (which I hope is in the spirit of /r/gainit). Having said that, my moderated approach to lifting combined with eating from the get-go seems to have consistently built muscle throughout my journey, even if it's not as fast or as much as it likely could have been. If you showed me a picture of where I'm at now when I started my journey, I'd have been over the moon so I tend to think of other newbies browsing this sub that might be starting off from a similar place as me. So my perspective is that it seems like here as with most things there are gradients - I do hope some of the folks reading your post are able to follow in your footsteps and gain at their limits!
Appreciate you sharing that my dude. I'm the opposite: I pretty much NEVER go to failure in training. I honestly can't imagine doing that regularly. Squatting along would be exhausting. I'd have to let the bar crash into the pins, take all the weight off, rack the bar, and then reload all the plates for multiple sets. I'd piss off the Mrs, as she's asleep when I train, and be wiped out, haha.
The reason most people don't train until failure on a regular basis is that it's terribly hard on your body. Most people will not be able to recover from that style of training day in and day over a long period of time.
I think I'm terrible at heavy low rep sets and naturally better at grinding lighter high rep sets - I think some people call that fast twitch and slow twitch lifters - but it's definitely a skill one develops with time. Deep Water Advanced with those amraps was my favorite for developing the ability to dig. Your various conditioning workouts are also great at teaching that skill. I think hard gainers here would benefit from having a dedicated conditioning day to learn what it's like to be hungry. Sort of a conditioning party for the whole sub.
Fantastic idea. Perhaps "Mass Made Simple" with it's built in complexes would answer the mail there.
> When you hit that stall, it doesn’t matter what number your lifts are at: you’ve demonstrated that you’re as far along as your skill will carry your CURRENT potential. Some trainees will have more potential than other, due to a combination of previous athletic background, genetic predisposition, height, weight, etc. Amen. Social media has been horrible for people’s mental health in this regard. I’ve seen one too many younger trainee feel inadequate because they can’t bench the plates right away or they’re not ripped within the first 6 months or they don’t immediately have big glutes or thighs. Everybody’s potential is different. That, and far too many people who post their “natty” rapid gains online aren’t being completely honest or transparent. There are a lot of high schoolers at my gym and they tell me it’s a very real problem. > If you’re going to manipulate nutrition during this time, use it as an opportunity to improve food QUALITY over quantity. This is great advice especially for younger trainees. Implementing good nutritional habits at an earlier age will pay dividends down the road. I **wish** younger me would’ve known better to eat healthy versus dreamer dirty bulking. Great post!
Hey thanks man! I'm with you: I'm always trying to share those things I wish I could have known/done at the start.
If my intention is to gain fat as well as muscle (severely underweight) and I'm at the very beginning of Allpros Beginner routine, should I still load up with the un needed calories? I'm 31, 5'6" and 106lbs, male. I'm up four pounds from my first attempt at this in December.
If your intention is to gain fat, I would not call what you are doing "bulking" but simply "overeating". There's not too many wrong ways to do that.
My intention is both, always assumed it fell under the 'bulking' umbrella.
Typically, when bulking, one's aim is to gain muscle and they accept the fat that comes with it, rather than aiming to gain fat specifically. [Here is a case of someone specifically aiming to gain fat](https://www.elitefts.com/education/training/elitefts-classic-so-you-want-to-gain-weight/) alongside muscle.
Thanks for this, that was a fun read lol
Absolutely dude! There's so much out there in that regard https://www.elitefts.com/education/nutrition/efs-classic-captian-of-the-cups/ https://www.elitefts.com/coaching-logs/7-oreo-bulking-tips/
Typically. But OP laid out their unique situation and you just ignored it.
But I AM the op...
My bad, I meant the OP in the sense of the comment tree but i guess nobody really uses it that way🙄
Ah. I do not feel I ignored him
Unless you are super skinny and you want to get bigger. everything you eat is a win. I’m not attempting to over eat I’m just trying to eat enough.
If someone is super skinny and just wants to get bigger, I would say that what they are doing is not bulking.
I'm 6'2 160. I was 154 3 months ago but have gained 6 pounds due to working out 5 days a week and eating slightly above my maintenance calories. Would you consider this a bulk then or no? My diet has been relatively clean but not strict at all
Were you struggling to Progress in the gym prior to upping the calories?
I honestly think so, this has been the first time I've been really committed. In the past I have always worked out for 1 or 2 months before quitting because I got lazy. Now I've been the most motivated and its been going well as my lifts continue to increase. I was adding 5 lbs every 1-2 weeks if I was getting the reps easily in for progressive overload. Should I still be doing this progressive overload strategy or should I be going slower with the weight increase?
I don't see a reason to change something that is working
What if I went to the gym for 3 years continuously for 4 days a week, but took a break for 5 months, and lost some weight and muscle. I need to put on some pounds before the summer, so i think a quick bulk and then a cut should help speed up some gains by 3 months time.
If you have to ask if advice aimed at beginners is meant for you... We can play the what if game all day. In the end, this post is not an ultimatum you need adhere to. Assess your situation, make the best decision(s) to achieve your goals and wants, then take the appropriate action(s). If you don't want to leverage OP's experience, use your own.
> I need to put on some pounds before the summer This sort of short-term thinking leads to silly bulk and cut cycles rather than continuous progress
I prefer dirty bulking to be honest and then starving myself until I get abs. I really don’t care about progression I just want to bang some hoes this summer and look good with my shirt off
At the risk of taking Mythical's initial analogy too far - it's fun to be able to walk around a beach looking like the sand-kicker in the old Atlas advertisements as a general side effect of long-term effort, rather than having to do things like eat four McDoubles a day for two months and then nothing for a month to have a mediocre physique. I'm pushing back on this a bit for the benefit of the subreddit audience - you do you man. I suspect that this is a process that won't seem nearly as attractive as you get older (and I'm going to venture a guess that you're in your 20s or early 30s now, ha ha).
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Hah you're not wrong. Guess you saw it before I edited it out!
Deleted. Ha
I don't know the answer to that one my dude: you'll have to find what works best for you.
Sounds like a reasonable take. I think by bulking hard right away you're putting your short term goals above the long term. When I was 145 lbs at almost 6'2" I basically just wanted to be bigger in general and didn't care if some of it was fat. I'd eat like 600 calories of cake for breakfast and stuff. But I was starting out with an okay layer of muscle compared to some people here - I could already do pull ups and bench press like 135 and stuff. In hindsight now at 195 lbs I sometimes wish I'd taken it a little slower on the bulking because I do have probably an extra 20 lbs of fat or so. (I think I'd be an absolutely ripped 175lbs with the muscle mass I have). So yeah, I think you're right, but it also sucks to weigh 145 lbs at 6'2" so I don't really blame my past self or new people for trying to pack on the pounds right away.
Appreciate that sentiment dude! There's nothing wrong with wanting to put weight on quick: but I feel there's a distinction between "bulking" and "overfeeding", in terms of intention.
Great post but some of the comments seem to be overlooking one point. You will still gain muscle starting off even if you’re not eating at a surplus. Everyone has protein in their daily diet and most of it is going to waste because they aren’t working out. Once you start working out your body will divert that unused protein into muscle growth. You won’t gain weight, but you will start developing your muscles which will be visually apparent to a degree. Op’s post doesn’t mean you won’t gain muscle (albeit small amounts compared to bulking later on), you just need to focus on your foundation before you can start adding bricks.
Specifically, I'm speaking to the idea of forcing muscular growth via overfeeding (bulking). There's no need to manipulate nutrition that early in the training process: that comes when one can no longer process ABSENT said manipulation.
Tl;dr starting GOMAD for the gainz today
Outstanding dude: hope it goes well for you! Everyone should try that for 6 weeks at least once.
This just seems like you're looking to redefine things based on your own experience? While I agree most newbies likely benefit more from recomping than bulking, bulking is literally people expecting to gain fat and muscle with the intent of being able to gain more strength or muscle more quickly. This can be experienced lifters or newbie lightweights. Your labelling of it as basically over-eating doesn't seem any different from this. It also presumes that fat gain is always bad - it's not over eating if the person does not have enough fat to maintain essential functions (ex. amenorrhea) or prefers this aesthetically. I feel like recomping is the word you're looking for for billing and you're calling bulking over eating. Can you explain? (Basically bulking is by definition over eating, eating beyond caloric expandicture, for the purpose of muscle or strength gain, so your definitions seem redundant. ETA I do agree with the main point that bulking is not ideal for most beginners given most are looking for fat loss or recomposition.)
I actually don't feel beginners should recomp. For those 12-16 weeks I'm discussing, I feel the focus should just be on learning HOW to train. I like improving food quality during that time, but I wouldn't anticipate any significant physique changes. I've written on MANY occasions about fat gain not being bad. https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/10y2uwl/stop_eating_like_a_bodybuilder_start_eating_like/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/yhlhc7/dont_worry_about_overeating_worry_about/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/wpz9xn/fear_of_getting_fat_is_admitting_that_you_do_not/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/vxfney/the_holy_text_and_patron_saints_of_rgainit_3/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/t5vgee/oh_my_god_you_arent_getting_fat_a_discussion/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/rrac8x/physical_transformation_is_an_uncomfortable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/r0mr9s/tnations_the_cure_for_skinny_roundtable/ https://www.reddit.com/r/gainit/comments/qg85zd/minimizing_fat_gain_is_sabotaging_your_muscle/ Hopefully that helps clarify my position!
Ahh I see! I figure form first and recomp typically comes with that, all other lifestyle variables being the same. Thanks for explaining, I think I misunderstood your original point. (ETA: Not huge changes, but anyone going from sedentary to regular lifting with good form and consistency is likely to see some positive changes.)
> consistency is likely to see some positive changes After those first 12-16 weeks, I absolutely agree!
Cheers! Is your point that physique shouldn't be the goal or that it can't improve in that timeline? (And thanks for your clarifying on all this! I'm a bit dense and appreciate it, my last question/comment ha.)
Always happy to discuss dude. Physique can absolutely be the goal, but expectations must be managed. When one is in a state of physical learning, I would not expect much in the way of physical change. If it happens: outstanding. If it doesn't" no matter. We've been out of shape our whole lives up to this point: 12-16 more weeks of it won't be bad.
Thanks! Great backlog btw
Also really enjoying your backlog of writeups!
Thanks man! I get a headful of steam every few months and have to let it out, haha.
This completely reflects my personal experience. I didn't know what "training hard" truly meant until I was months in. The large amounts of food I was eating in those first few months were probably not being put to good use and likely why I gained more fat than intended. Overall, not the worst thing to happen, but if I were to go back in time I'd focus more on the actual training.
Appreciate you sharing your experience there my dude. Good to know I'm not making this up, haha. These are valuable lessons to learn.
I know I’ll probably catch some flak for mentioning this but, these reasons you listed are the very reason I bought a smart home gym, it slowly progressed me up to a good heavy lifting cycle
I don't see any reason to create flak over that: I love home gyms!
I love the "use it as an opportunity to improve food QUALITY over quantity". Anyway, I never really understood why anyone would do bulking/cutting, and not try to maintain a balanced diet through the whole journey. Maybe I don't see the whole picture because I have always been skinny, but still, it seems to make sense to form a habit of eating the right amount of food, and stick with it. What am I missing?
Glad you enjoyed it dude. The reason for bulking and cutting is because, when training hard, one NEEDS calories to recover from the hard training. This results in muscular gains. This hard training cannot be sustained indefinitely, so in periods of time where the training intensity is reduced, one needs less food, which results in a cut. Training is periodizaed, and with it, so is nutrition. Some good reading on training periodization https://www.elitefts.com/education/training/efs-classic-the-periodization-bible/ https://www.t-nation.com/training/training-clarity-one-goal-at-a-time/
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I feel we will have to agree to disagree
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I'd be curious to know how you feel it contradicts them. I feel it compliments them personally.
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You are quoting things I have written but not explaining where the contradiction is. You must forgive me, but I see these as complimentary posts. Would you be willing to discuss?
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I am sorry you feel that way my dude.
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That's quite an accusation there my dude. I'm wanting to have a discussion with you. Now that you have blocked me, you must forgive me if I perceive this interaction to mean you never approached it with an honest attempt to want to have a dialog or reach an understanding.
>Now that you have blocked me, Ah, that's too bad. This is not how we do things in this room.
> trolling This is pretty silly. He gives an extraordinary amount of free time actively trying to help people. What you are interpreting as his attempts to waste your time are actual invitations to engage, or genuine disagreement with your premise. There's no requirement that you agree with someone. Getting upset at their refusal to argue isn't going to bring you to a consensus.
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I don't understand how this is a contradiction. Can you explain?
This is extremely helpful. Thank you for preventing me from diving headfirst into a bad nutrition plan when I’m very early in my journey. I’ve also never considered the fact that I’m not yet coordinated enough to properly work my muscles, and I think I’ve forgotten that the POINT of exercise is to be fatigued at the end of it, rather than simply checking off however many reps at however much weight. Much to think about, thanks!
Happy to hear it dude! That "human" aspect of exercise is often overlooked. People get so caught up in reps and sets that they forget that those are simply a prescription for hard work.
I disagree because I feel like most underweight newbies will prefer the look of some fluff with the new muscle gains, myself included. And there isn’t a large skill gap for most assistance exercises in my opinion.
>And there isn’t a large skill gap for most assistance exercises in my opinion. If you're part of the target audience, low skill assistance work should be so far down your list of priorities that it's debatable if it should even be on your list of things to train. Time spent curling, leg pressing, or doing single joint/machine movements etc. is taking time from learning the pushup, press, squat, bench, dead, row, pullup, etc. A trainee that can't execute a proper pushup or goblet squat has no business trying to accelerate weight gain and train high volume. While I agree that being willing to accept fluff can be exactly what a trainee needs when they do gain, trying to add two separate stressors isn't going to contribute positively to their outcomes. They need to gain the skill in the moneymakers first.
It's awesome to disagree dude: that's what makes the world interesting :) If this doesn't apply to you, don't apply it. But I've seen enough trainees that got disappointing from this approach that I felt it was worth explaining. I don't find assistance exercises good drivers for muscle growth myself.
definitely see the point in saying that for a while, progress on big compound lifts will be mostly neurological gains and may not benefit as much from a massive caloric surplus. my question would be if that still holds true if you backfill your sessions with "dumber" isolation/hypertrophy work. ie. a beginner doing their basic 5x5 and then going to town on leg presses, chest supported rows, hamstring curls, machine chest presses, lateral raises etc
I wouldn't see a need to eat a caloric surplus to support a bunch of assistance work like that. Typically, that backilling of volume approach is something I'd do during periods of weight LOSS rather than gain, primarily BECAUSE I'm not able to muster enough energy to push the main work hard enough to grow. In that instance, I'm just signaling a demand tot he body to maintain as much muscle as possible.
As someone who has been a hard gainer all of my life and has began to crack through it over the last year I couldn’t agree more. Also seen other stuff you’ve posted on here and I really appreciate seeing stuff from someone who I look up to
Hey thanks for that man! Happy it's been helpful.
Could not agree more, wish I understood this when I started lifting.
Thanks man!
I’m a beginner and I’ve been running a PPL split for about 8 weeks. My bench press feels like I’m reaching a plateau now. I started by just barely managing 45lb and I added 5lb every session. Now I’m stuck at 80lb Does this mean it’s time to deload or am I doing something else wrong (like eating or sleeping)
I wouldn't do PPL personally. What is your height and weight?
Sorry for bad formatting, I’m on mobile. 6ft 0 inch. Started at 130lb, now weighing 140lb. The split I’m on is Pull Push Legs Rest - Repeat (so the rest days are different every week). On each day I have one compound followed by accessories. For example push day could be: Bench Press - 5 x 6 - 8 reps Incline DB Press - 3 x 8 - 12 reps DB Lateral Raise - 3 x 8 - 12 reps DB overhead press - 3 x 8 - 12 reps (usually have no juice in the tank for this tho, feels way too difficult sometimes I just leave it out) Tricep rope pushdown - 3 x 8 - 12 reps Skullcrushers - 3 x 8 - 12 reps And for mind muscle connection, a couple reps of light cable chest flies if I have extra time
I don't see any need for a beginner to train like that. Or most folks in general. If just starting, I like the plan Jim Wendler laid out here https://www.jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101085062-2016-help-a-friend-get-stronger Do you know how to perform the barbell squat, deadlift and press overhead?
I know how to perform the squat and deadlift but I’m too weak to do more than 3 reps on the barbell overhead press. May I ask what specifically is not great about this split (is it inefficient, or overtraining etc). I’ve been running it for about 8 weeks and I’m worried about just suddenly changing to a different split, but I’ll give the link a look still. Maybe if it’s overtraining that’s why my bench press has stalled at 80? Occasionally, (like once a month) I forgo the rest day and train every day in a 7 day period.
By your own admission it is not very effective no? You have stalled at an 80lb bench
True that it’s not as effective anymore. Do you have any idea why this could be the case though (I’m just curious). Should I still be expecting linear progression at this stage?
I do not find that to be an effective programming style. I do not recall seeing many trainees succeed with it
Maybe it’s not effective because there’s too many days of going to the gym? I’ll probably be switching to 5/3/1 as per the article
I feel like Chase Karnes outlines some good critiques here https://www.elitefts.com/education/novice/how-to-stay-small-and-weak/ >Because your base of strength is so low as a beginner, we want to make sure we are doing enough volume that you are forced to use even lighter weight. We don’t want any adaption response from the body getting bigger or stronger; we just want to burn a ton of calories and get a sweet pump. We want to do stuff like hit failure on incline dumbbell presses on our drop sets that start with 30-pound dumbbells and end with 15-pound dumbbells. Why train three days a week if you can train six days a week? We don’t want to have time to rest and recover, and we want to keep burning maximum calories, because burning calories is trendy.
Amazing, thanks for this
Absolutely dude!
Is it fair to say that as a beginner, basically just eat when you're hungry and eat just enough to satisfy that hunger as your body will naturally crave the amount of food that you need to repair your muscles and grow?
I would not say it's fair to say that, because I find hunger to vary by individual. I am always hungry. I have a voracious appetite. I have been full 3 times in my life. If I eat based on hunger, I will be VERY overweight. Others can have so little appetite that they never eat.
Ha, I definitely fall in the latter camp. I tend to feel full pretty quick when eating, so it's hard to know if i'm eating enough. I've only just started, but I do feel like i'm a bit hungrier than normal so i've been trying to basically just eat enough to satiate that without having to force down food. From the OP it seems like this is an okay approach?
From the OP, for the first 12-16 weeks of training, I'd focus on improving food QUALITY while getting in the regular training. I'd make it a goal to go a full 12 weeks without skipping a single workout and meeting 90% of my meals.
I remember reading a study that supported this! There is a big difference between single and multi joint movements though. A new trainee will become more efficient on a preacher curl than on a barbell squat given the same amount of time. The logical conclusion is that simpler movements are going to start building muscle faster. This doesn't just apply to brand new trainees either, it applies to any new movements or old exercises you haven't done in a long time. The so-called *stabilizers* are just motor neurons learning, no different than doing a new exercise, or going back to an exercise after a long break. As with all skill based things, it's a lot quicker to pick it back up than pick it up for the first time. Thanks for the read, I happen to think about this whenever I decide to learn new exercises.
Glad you enjoyed it dude! Speaks to the value of variation.
Very insightful. Thanks for reminding me about a few stuff!!
Absolutely dude!
This is an amazing post. If I read this when I was starting out it would have saved me a lot of frustration from figuring it out on my own.
Hey thanks so much for saying that dude! Glad you found it helpful.
You can learn how to jab in an afternoon? You can maybe learn what a jab is in an afternoon lol, but it takes months or even years of practice to develop a good jab. Just being nit picky, good post.
It only took me an afternoon...maybe I'm just gifted, haha. But thanks!
There's a good fighter vs barbarian comparison right there. If you hadn't already written that blog post I'd say that should be the next one.
Man, I even already have a monk vs barbarian one too. It helps to remember that boxing is the art of hitting someone while not getting it. People sometimes forget that, haha.
Let me guess, you "learned the footwork" within a day too? I'd like to see some bag or pad work.
Nah, footwork took forever. Was never too good at it. Flat, long plodding feet. Here is some bag work https://youtu.be/gGx7f9Qv5GQ
What if you have an extremely high metabolism? I work out 4 nights a week, for about 1.5-2 hours, and consume (or attempt to) about 3.5k calories a day. I still am struggling to gain weight. I’m nearly 5’8”, and weight about 145 lbs. I have two bartending/serving jobs, and work about 8 6 hour shifts a week that I am on my feet for nearly the whole time.
It doesn't sound like you just started training...
I mean I started in January and trained consistently for maybe a month and a half but I haven’t been active for the majority of March and the second half of February
I would focus on consistency before attempting to tackle any other variables.
> an extremely high metabolism The "extremely high metabolism" is a myth. Get out of that mindset, because it is not going to do you any good
Then why am I eating ridiculous amounts of food and struggling to gain any weight?
In your own post above you acknowledge that you attempt to eat 3500 calories. I suspect that if you start logging your intake you will find that you are not hitting that consistently.
I mean I eat three meals a day and I always do my best to make or order things with the most protein/calories possible, plus a 1250 cal protein shake at the end of the day after my workout. I have to consistently be hitting AT LEAST 3k a day.
> I have to Beats me - impossible to truly know without tracking. But, even if you do have a really, unusually fast metabolism, the trick is the same as for anyone else: put more food in your face hole.
I’ve struggled with appetite for a while now; the amount I’m eating now is already a big struggle
So get used to the amount of food you're eating now and make gradual changes over time. You're actively altering habit: it's tough!
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It does not matter what you do as a pure beginner in the gym, if you are in a caloric surplus you will gain muscle assuming you are generating some minute level of mechanical tension. This advice just leaves noobs wishing they would have eaten. Instead wasting their first few months spinning their wheels working on 'form and skills'. Like you said, muscle needs fuel to be created. What happens when these new guys energy expenditure goes through the roof and their body is screaming for caloric intake? Sorry but this thread is a 4/10 at best, whilst it has niche application, its not overreaching advice.
I am sorry to hear that you feel that way my dude
I've coached around 40 absolute beginners and the ones who see the most success strength and physique wise are those who eat. The exception is morbidly obese 140kg+ This is my experiencem
Thanks for sharing that dude!
So I've been pretty active throughout most of my life. I did all sorts of sports before high school and then swam all through high school and also took lifting classes where I learned the very basics of weight lifting. I'm 20 now. Last year, my first year in college, myself and some friends got into going to the campus gym and I intentionally ate a calorie surplus and noticed pretty quick growth. Maybe 10-15 pounds of mostly muscle in 2-3 weeks. I lost motivation because of a situation with a girl and stopped working out for almost a year, but now my roommate and I are starting to get into it. He's a complete beginner and wants to learn a bit from me. I'm 5'10" and like 140 and overall still pretty muscular. Would you say intentionally bulking is a bad decision for me right now? And would you say my bulk last year was also a poor decision?
I don't feel it's my place to rate people's decisions. That's a personal matter. Are you happy with your decision?
I mean I think my bulking had an overall positive effect. I liked the muscle I gained and was feeling more confident. But the reason why I asked is because I would normally consider myself a beginner and you seem to be more experienced. Though after typing out my comment, I suppose I do have a good bit of experience
I already read a lot of gym info but thats the first time I read something like this. So maybe I am not crazy, I gained mostly fat with my bulk. In one year of gym my strength stopped progressing maybe 4 or 5 months ago. And that was just my mind/body conection growing, I probably didnt even gained muscle after this period of adaptation because I didnt get more strength. To be honest I gained a bit of strength but not the 5lbs every week I see on internet
Upping calories without upping gym performance is a surefire way to just put on fat vs muscle. How were you training during that time?
But the additional calories shouldnt make me gain more strenght ? Anyway my routine was basically what people call on internet "bro split". It is 4 days a week. It have 8 exercises a day, 4x10 repetitions each. Then my gym Instructor change to 5x8 repetitions. The gym Instructor gave me this routine so I thougth she knew was she was doing.
Additional calories don't make you gain more strength: they facilitate strength gains. YOU have to make you gain more strength, and this comes from consistently pushing beyond your current abilities. It sounds like that trainer gave you a routine, but you need a program.
What is the difference between routine and program ? The routine have scheduled weight I need to increase in my lift ?
A routine is something you do every day. You brush your teeth as part of your daily routine. A program builds up to something. You went to school every day as part of a routine, but your school had you enrolled in an academic program. When you were done with the program, you had achieved the goal of a higher educaiton. A lifting program is similar. It will have a routine element to it (something you do frequently), but ALSO include a model of progression so that you build to something.
On top of food quality, if you have any suspicions of stomach problems sort them out ASAP. Bulking felt impossible to me before I figured out I shouldn’t eat dairy or gluten. Malabsorption hindered me along with pain and discomfort from eating foods my body did not like. Once these issues were sorted I’ve bulked up 17 pounds with relative ease and comfort. Also for me, just eating when I was hungry would NOT be enough to be in a caloric surplus. I have a naturally small appetite and can easily ignore/forget to eat. I just did not feel very hungry very often. I HAD to pre make and weigh snacks, and eat when I wasn’t hungry just to hit calories. Yes overall I was hungrier, but not nearly hungry enough to see significant progress. Now I’m finally at the point where eating my 3,150 cals a day feels normal and comfortable, but it took a long time to get there. Great post I enjoyed reading it, well done!
Hey thanks for that man! Glad you dug it.
This was an amazing read (as a bit of a beginner myself--on week 8 of my current program, finally taking things seriously). Halfway to the 16 week mark!
Glad it was helpful dude. 12-16 weeks is just a range. If you can hold form earlier, you can move on to other programming too.
Can agree from experience with this post: started stronglifts with the bar for all lifts, did half GOMAD, gained 17kgs in a year but also just got fat. Really took some time doing more holistic programming lime 531 to understand what training hard and putting in effort is, and also that you need to earn those calories
Hell yeah dude! Appreciate you sharing that. We've all been there.
Honestly, pretty solid explanation to everything. But can I ask a question about a workout routine?
Thanks man. You can always ask questions. Can't always say I will have answers
Well, I'm in a kinda complicated situation. See, I don't have any equipment, No barbell, no dumbbells, no pull-up bar. Also, I have no money for a gym and it's too cold for outside workout. All I'm saying is, does anyone have a callisthenics(I think that's what it calls) routine, please? P.s.: I tried to start building muscles 2 years ago and few times before that, but my mental state didn't allow that happening.
I would wait until finances improved
Damn. Well, thank you
Wish I would've seen this 6 months and 15 pounds of fat ago!
Lots of learning happening at least!
What about if you’re fairly comfortable with the techniques but are physiologically untrained. E.g. if a relatively trained individual was coming back after a long layoff due to injury
I don't see why such an individual would need to eat a surplus of calories to Progress at that point. Growth should occur rapidly as they body relearns the movements
Thank you! I guess I will eat around maintenance until strength stalls, and then up the calories a little?
Food is recovery for training. So long as I am recovering, I am eating enough
In a way, I have to disagree For me, I JUST started training (will also be boxing soon too) at the gym, and I want to gain weight and get to 140-144 (currently 128). Ever since I started going to the gym, I’ve been hungrier than before, I’m craving food. So, as a beginner, I do have that same sensation.
I find many new trainees disagree with me :)
I mean, I feel like reason that you could be way hungrier is just because your activity levels are higher. Whether or not you worked out hard enough to tear up your muscle fibers, and thus create an opportunity for anabolism, going from a lifestyle of not exercising, and hitting the gym, to a lifestyle of exercising and hitting the gym, is going to guarantee to translate into a higher total daily energy expenditure. This, of course will make you hungrier. It would be no different than if you spent the whole day loading boxes into a moving truck to help your friend move to a new apartment, or if you played soccer all day, or if you went on a hike with your friends in the hills. Physical activity costs calories
Earlier this week I had this realization, although I had not formulated it. Today I formulated it. And then this evening, I found this post, which basically confirms all of my reasoning as sound. Basically, I ran a linear progression strength program (GZCLP - r/GZCLP) a few months ago, for 50 days in a row without rest days, and my lifts all doubled, but I plateaued, and then my lifts started to get harder and harder. I realized something was wrong - I wasn’t taking rest days. Eventually I got injured, and then I stopped GZCLP, and it took me a while to regain my habit of hitting the gym frequently. Several months passed. Recently, I hired a personal trainer and told him about my past experience with GZCLP as well as a trainer from years ago (hired a PT to teach me to squat, deadlift, OHP and bench correctly; worked w/ him for 2 months), and I told him I wanted to focus on body building and just learning how to actually make my muscles grow. So far working with this trainer has been a success; I actually leave the gym pumped and sore where I’m supposed to be, every time now. And I now have the skills to reflect on my workouts and plan what to tackle the hardest in each upcoming one. And then earlier this week I realized, I’m never going to get big if I don’t eat big. But at the same time, I thought, if I eat big, I better damn well be lifting weights correctly, or all it’ll do is make me fat. And, as of a few days ago, I just decided, “I know how to lift weights good enough now”. So I put some trust in myself and started my first bulk ever. I lifted weights in high school like many teenage boys do. And I lifted off and on in college but without any idea what I was doing. Years later as an adult I would go to the gym for months at a time but again, had no idea what I was doing. It was only half a year ago or so that I tried an actual program (GZCLP), for which I saw massive strength (but not size, because I wasn’t resting enough nor eating enough) gains. And it was only a month or two ago that I started push pull legs (PPL). In all my “years” of lifting, whether it be off and on, with a trainer, winging it or following a program, I’ve never felt like I’ve gotten more out of my gym sessions than I do now. And I feel like they get better every week too, thanks to my constant learning and self reflection. So it’s only now that I’ve finally gained enough trust in myself to do something “crazy” like bulking. It’s really nice to see you put down everything I’ve been thinking into words! I totally agree with you. In my opinion (and yours too I believe), bulking is like playing with fire. If you don’t know what you’re doing, you’ll get burned / fat. But if you know what you’re doing… Well, just about every “mythos of mankind” story starts with “man harnessed the power of fire”
Outstanding to hear dude! Glad you're finding success.