Yes.
It all starts as who had more wins (Ham/Alo 2007 or Leclerc/Perez before today or Ham/Max before Abu last year), then highest position. Unsure what happens if they have the same highest position tho.
My guess is, since it's FIA's to choose, they can just create a special event (a Championship Showdown or something like that) and choose the winner of said event as WDC
In fact HAM/ALO 2007 was decided on most 2nd places, not most wins.
It goes like this:
1. Most points
2. Most wins
3. Most 2nd places
4. Most 3rd places
5. Most 4th places
6. Etc.
Yes itās flukey, still impressive from Ocon. Quali battle ended up being Alo 23-Oco 21 which I would guess is also among the better performances from his teammates.
Ocon is immensely underrated I swear.
Yes, Fernando would've got (few) more points than him if they had equal luck in 2022, but redditors use that as an excuse to overlook the fact that they have been quite level matched for two straight years both in quali and race. Also, Ocon had more issues and bad luck in 2021 than Fernando did.
I don't understand in which world Fernando is still rated one of the best drivers in F1 and Esteban isn't rated at all as if he was some MSC or Zhou.
People loved to reference the ānever beaten a teammateā thing without the context of who those were, where everyone heās compared to have teamed with a rookie or a subpar driver at some point.
And if they discredit him having done it, he was the Alonso in 2018.
I think it's unfair on Button to group him together with Massa and Raikkonen as teammates Alonso 'has shown clear dominance' over. I don't think that's true, Button was way closer in performance to Alonso than them.
I didn't realise Alonso got so many more points than Button. Pretty decent since Button outscored Hamilton over the three years they were together at McLaren.
This was easily Ocon's best season so far, so good job done by him, not much to fault. But, as far as Alonso's season is concerned, it's hard to really judge it by points alone.
Ocon has had plenty of unreliability this year and last year his reliability was worse than Alonso's.
As for at McLaren, Alonso had 72% of the McLaren mechanical DNFs of 2017 and 75% of 2018, but that's not a conspiracy apparently...
Alonso was the faster driver in 2017 and 2018 so it makes sense, he put more lateral Gs on the engine and spent more time on the throttle, ergo put more stress on the engine.
When Alonso was signed people in here were saying that Ocon was about to get Vandoorned. But Ocon held pretty well overall. Ocon had more dnfs last year and had his own issues this year as well, heās just not nearly as loud or gets tv coverage like Alonso
I do wonder though. Was Alonso pushing the car more, which meant getting better pace but also occasionally burning it out? While Ocon nursed the car at a slower but more reliable pace.
Doubt any team allows their driver to destroy the engine. We've seen in Mexico he mentioned on the radio how he's nurising until a few laos time the engine alpine'd.
Kinda interesting that aside from Hamilton, Trulli and Ocon were the ones to suffer the least against Alonso.
Guess that strong qualifier + very tough (sometimes too tough) on defense combo is the key to not get demolished by him.
It's not just about skill of particular teammate, It has lot to do with team politics, car characteristics and other things.
In 2003-04 Alonso was young and not as well estabilished, so team and car wasn't built around him way it was in his later career.
Hamilton was Ron Dennis protege and knew Bridgestones way more than Alonso
Button was in McLaren way longer, had strong position within team and his driving style was pretty simillar to Fernando.
Alpine is French team with pretty ego-driven leadership
In fact Trulli wasn't much better than Fisichella, Massa or Vandoorne, but team atmosphere was far better in time he was Alonso teammate. Kimi was better than any of his teammates bar Hamilton but was terribly unlucky to end up in politized and toxic team with car being exact opposite of his driving style.
I don't think saying he showed clear dominance against Button is an accurate representation of what actually happened.
* In 2015, Button was fully motivated and outscored Fernando, but that was mainly down to the car's reliability operating on a "Russian Roulette" type fashion. Both drivers were realistically pretty equal across the season, with Jenson having a fractionally higher average finishing position, and Fernando having a fractionally higher average qualifying position.
* In 2016, Button didn't even want to race - it took a massive pay offer from McLaren to get him to stay, and even then his heart was never in it. Alonso therefore had him easily beaten at a complete canter and he definitely dominated him that year - and since the McLaren was far more competitive, that created the big points disparity that we see in the overall total.
I just hope 5-10 years from now people understand and remember the context of alpine engines being a joke specially with Alonso... Ocon did a great job but it stings how unfair it feels when he should've been fighting with Norris
People tend to never remember that.
Ocon beaten Perez in qualifying and head to head finishes in 2018 but ended behind him in WDC because he got a lot more DNFs, and everyone talks like Checo was easily beating him.
Itās just what people do. Put context on everything they need context for to make their point, and be forgetful when itās convenient. Ocon had several races with a cracked floor last year but weirdly itās NEVER brought up
> Ocon had several races with a cracked floor last year but weirdly itās NEVER brought up
Well yeah, everyone knows that unreliability only counts when it happens to Fernando's car.
Ocon had 5 DNFs to Perez's 2, sure. But Perez's retirements were both caused by technical issues, whereas 3 of Ocon's were due to collisions. In two of which he was arguably at fault (cutting RƤikkƶnen off in Baku, Gasly in France).
Saying he was drastically more unlucky isn't reasonable. And with a points difference of 62 to 49, a single DNF (that wasn't his fault) more wasn't the difference maker there. If you wanna calculate points-per-races he finished, Ocon averaged 3.0625 that season.
Funnily enough, this is an example of you not looking at enough context.
On top of the 6 DNF, Ocon also had one disqualification because of fuel limits in the US.
Let me also play the game of cherry picking statistics to make the point that I want to make:
Ocon qualified ahead of Perez 16-5, average grid position was 10th for Ocon vs 11th for Perez.
On races they both finished, Ocon finished ahead of Perez 9-5, and overall season on laps they were both in race he was ahead 611-411. Average finish position was also lower for Ocon.
It's not cherry-picking stats to point out that there's more to racing than just raw pace both in quali and the race.
Ocon primarily lost that season because he crashed with others more than Perez did.
I did completely miss the US DSQ, tho. But even if you wanna include it, that's only a six-point swing to Ocon. It doesn't close the gap.
Lol no. People right now are looking at Sargeants result sheet and saying he's not good enough for F1.
It's a shame but both Ocon and Alonso are great drivers anyway so it doesn't matter.
They will not, you just know it. Just like with Carlos and Charles in 2021 and George and Lewis this year after Lewis wasted the front half of the season trying extreme setups to gather data. People only look at results sadly.
The winter last season was painful as a Leclerc fan with people saying Sainz was better. I have a feeling that people will do the same to Lewis and George, when its clear Lewis is still a better driver.
Why is it painful? Don't be influenced by biased tweets or Reddit posts.
The unbiased fans know Leclerc last year and Hamilton this year just had more bad luck.
Still Sainz and Russell were very impressive in their first year in the team.
George took the moments but objectively Lewis was slightly faster in races, qualy and had more bad luck. Today was a good example of that and it's hard to say George was "better" when Lewis was stronger in most of the races this year.
I would give it to George, he delivered the pole, wins and was quicker in the 1st 3rd of the year and consistently quick all tracks.
George also is great at calling his strategy compared to Lewis and that's helped him this year.
We'll see next year.
He outscored Hamilton because he himself threw it in Spa and had to start last in Monza. He was only faster in Monza and Brazil than Hamilton.
In total he was maybe quicker in 6 or 7 races total.
"trying extreme setups" seems like pure copium to me tbh.
George was just more prepared to drive a shit box lol, he has a lot of experience in shit boxes.
I'm sure it's a difficult adjustment to go from fighting for a win every weekend to fighting for points, but everyone else does it, so I can only have so much sympathy.
George just quietly and consistently got everything he could have out of the car. Lewis definitely outdrove the car a few times, but George drove at a higher level over the course of the whole season.
Thatās exactly what he was doing though. Lewis was gathering data which was why he was having wild swings in results, especially qualifying. No oneās taking away from George, but Lewis took one for the team early on to push them forward.
"pure copium"
Both Lewis and Toto have acknowledged that Lewis was running experimental set-ups (up to Canada) to advance their understanding of the car overall. George was able to set up the car aimed at getting the best out of the car for each race weekend. Lewis wasn't able to do that until Silverstone. There's no question that compromised him.
Lewis even said publicly if Mercedes wanted to continue to do that, George could take over the responsibility.
So....maybe make conclusions based on facts rather than your feelings.
Ocon beat him by only 11 points where Alonso lost over 60 points because of reliability. He would have easily beaten Lando.
Alonso is still one of the top drivers on the grid.
And if McLaren hadn't had such a terrible car early in the season and at some later tracks like Spa, and Lando hadn't had engine issues in Canada & braking issues in Austria and McLaren hadn't screwed up his strategy several times during a race, losing him points and more than once dropping him behind Alonso, handing Alonso extra points when Lando had been ahead of him all race up until then, and if Alonso hadn't smashed into Gasly in Miami, which then resulted in Gasly taking Lando out of the race, he'd have many more points as well and Alonso likely wouldn't have finished ahead of him still. There were also several races where Ocon had issues in qualifying that then had a knock on effect into his race finishes which you all like to ignore. Also if Bottas hadn't been let down by a terrible run of reliability and if Alfa had done a better job of developing the car through the season, keeping it up where it started,, he could have challenged for best of the rest too. You can't play that game for one driver and not for others. Just because Alonso had more visible or spectacular issues, doesn't mean those he was fighting against didn't have plenty of their own.
The "over 60 points" is the maximum he might have scored, not what he actually would have done if his car hadn't broken down. Because there are other drivers on track who would have challenged him to those points. It never ceases to amaze me how Fernando's bigging up of himself gets taken as gospel by some fans.
And Lando has benefited from Alonso's misfortunes as well. P6 and would finish ahead of Lando in Saudi, wouldve qualified top 3 in australia without issues and couldve scored points in race without bad strategy, imola dnf at P7, wouldnt be knocked off in Q1in spain if the team communicated properly, top 5 finish in canada without engine problem, DNS in sprint and would have finished p6-p7 ahead of lando without pitting twice in 2 laps in austria, 4 points in italy without dnf, p5-p4 in singapore without dnf, would've finished higher in Japan wiithout bad strategy, wouldve finished higher than Lando in US if Stroll didnt try to end him, would finished at P6 ahead of lando without dnf in mexico.
In the end, lando benefited quite a lot from Alonso's misfortunes as well
The 60 points thing always comes up, but I feel that with same reliability for both cars Alonso would have beat Ocon by 20-25 points. Cars break down all the time, just not as much as Alonso's ones did this season.
Whenever Alonso has had to retire the car, he was running ahead of Ocon except for today, while the opposite wasn't true. And you also have to count the reliability issues which didn't necessarily mean a DNF. He would have outscored Ocon by quite a bigger margin than 20 points.
This 60 points is a myth really. It would mean he broke down 6 times from 5th position, which simply didn't happen. He had 6DNF's overall, and 3 times it was for very low/none points. Yes, he had some other problems, but so did Ocon.
If we count out all DNF, he would beat Ocon, but no more than 15 points.
Itās not just the DNFs that cost him. The Australia hydraulics issue in quali and Canada engine issue were not DNFs but cost him probably close to 20 points.
I donāt know how you can count lost points when something happens in quali. Yes he could have qualified much better in Australia and yet score zero point.
He also had an engine issue in during the race in Bahrain, hydraulic issue in Australia qualy, engine issue in Canada, couldn't start the sprint race in Austria while a wheel wasn't properly attached on the race...
His issues were not only the DNF's.
This comes up all the time.. but the vast majority of the lap is in the final sector. Alpine were at least 6 tenths behind the others in that sector. He could have been second or third row.
Alonsoās car would almost always shit the bed when he was in front of Ocon.
Saudi ahead of Ocon
Italy ahead of Ocon
Singapore ahead of Ocon
Mexico ahead of Ocon
as for Ocon he was behind Nando both occasions the car went boom in Singapore and Silverstone.
There we go again. Ocon lost a small fraction of the points that Alonso did and we hear, "But, but! Ocon had reliability issues too!" like they're remotely comparable.
Ocon has won more points from Alonso retirements than what he might have lost for his own reliabilty issues..
Alpine the way has handled Alonsos engines he was not allowed to compete. As simple as that.
In fact Ocons season is pretty average.
Ocon is the most overlooked driver in F1 I swear.
Yes, he did have less issues than Fernando, but that doesn't change that they even on good days they have been always close and swapping quali and race positions.
Esteban can be extremely proud for himself.
This happens in the midfield all the time. Sometimes a quicker driver can just get outpointed by their slower teammate whether thats because of DNFs, strategy or a bit of both. There's been tons of cases of this happening in recent years.
Good for Ocons CV though, he still had to be consistent enough to do it.
It's ridiculous tbh, and dates back to his days against Perez as well. Idk why people are so reluctant to give him his due.
I think Gasly's going to get a shock next year when he goes up against him; and you can bet that if Estaban comes out on top, there will be a load more excuses as to why he's overrated & doesn't deserve it.
A french person in a french team with less mechanical issues than his non french team mate beats him points? HHHMMMMMMM /s obviously for the dumbasses getting wooshed.
You are being quite negative.
People are right to question now the performance from Ocon since he is almost tied with Alonso in a season Alpine had a car to get MINIMUM over 100 points.
No matter how much some ppl dislike Ocon, if he ended the season matched with norris the mayority of ppl would give him massive credit.
In fact, most ppl are praising him in the face to face qualifying with Alonso this 2 years.
Its just the performance over the season's Sundays has been bad and the fact he beat Alonso may overshadow it.
I'm incredibly new to watching the sport and came into it through Drive To Survive. Can you or anyone else fill me in on why people dislike Ocon? He seemed like kind of a sweetheart in the documentary and I've got a bit of a soft spot for him.
He was incredibly liked by fans for a while. Great young prospect, nice, humble, absolutely shouldnāt be off the grid, Mercedes should replace Bottas with him. Was dubbed āOconsistencyā. Then he got into an incident with a popular driver, and suddenly he was hated, useless, arrogant, doesnāt deserve his drive.
I dont really know either. Ofc he has his fans as well.
Alonso is such a powerhouse and the way he prioriced defending over him instead of the rest of the grid annoyed his fans.
Checo is quite loved as well and Ocon had a few problems with him the time they raced togheter.
He also had an incident with Max in the past, where I think Max was the one to blame the most, but at the end of the day his fans also blamed him.
I'm learning that this sport has weird allegiances that are hard to break, and some of them are entirely contradictory lol.
My personal one is that I dislike Red Bull (hangover from my football fandom) and dislike Max, but am very fond of Checo. Don't know where that leaves me.
Alpine A522 becomes the first car to screw Fernando Alonso to the point of him being unable to outscore his teammate. (maybe second, 2015 McHonda comes to mind)
[I knew this post sounded familiar.
](https://twitter.com/rumz3y/status/1594356548683599874?t=r6WM3-WzTLu7tG81X_qCbA&s=19)
Kudos to Ocon for being consistent. But can't deny the fact that Alpine'S reliability screwed Alonso this season.
You are looking in the wrong way.
You don't need to compare Ocon with Alonso.
Alpice car this season was the fastest of the rest overall.
With only 2 DNFs and not many other engine problems during races Ocon should be +100 points and fighting Norris. You may think Ocon is trash, but for the people who value his talent, ask him for +100 points this season was the minimum to praise him, and ending at 125 and beat Norris a season to really be proud of.
Being happy just because he won Alonso who lost +40 points in reliability issues is loser mentality, but ngl, Its something cool to do.
Will Ocon had a broken chassis for 5 races last season and had 3 issues in quali this year (causing Q1 exits), but no one mentions that because those stats don't favour Alonso.
Except today? All of them.
Jeddah - Ahead
Italy - Ahead
Singapore - Ahead
Mexico - Ahead
Add there Canada, where he didn't DNF but engine issues cost him P6 at the very least, and Australia, where a failure compromised his strategy and race when he was on pace for an easy Top 5 in qualy.
I wouldn't call it "bad luck." The winds at Alpine changed since Rossi came on board. First by giving Ocon a long-term contract and Alonso a low-ball offer he knew he wouldn't accept. Rossi went out of his way not only to give Gasly a multi-year deal (which he wouldn't for Alonso), but he paid 8 figures to buy out his Alpha Tauri contract.
That's the thing. Piastri told the Alpine team he signed with McLaren on July 4th, meaning Rossi had 4 weeks to give Alonso a good-faith offer, but he still did not budge. Going out of his way to pay the exit clause for a mediocre driver who also happens to be French shows the decision making of the team with him at the helm.
Tbh this isnt that impressive. Ocon had 2 dnfs, 1 outside of points while Alonso had 6 dnfs all within points + issues in Bahrain, Canada and Austria. On top of that Alonso is 41 at the moment and even with these issues he only finished few points off Ocon. Also wouldnt compare it to Massa,Raikkonen and Button as they had much younger version of Fernando. Ocon is solid midfield driver but nothing more than that
Yeah same.
This doesn't sting anywhere as bad as his loss against Lewis. But then again, that's Lewis Hamilton. This season Alonso was the better driver, but unfortunately had the worst reliability.
This post literally sums up peoplesā psychology. I wonāt be surprised if people just from a year now start chanting Ocon beat Alonso. With 9/22 races having issues, losing 50-60 points and Ocon mostly losing points when he was out of point scoring positions, no this is not impressive at all. Imagine Alonso scoring 130-140, and Ocon at 80. Nobody wouldāve said it was impressive, Ocon clearly underperformed with the reliability he has had throughout the season
But he also got 25 points because Alonso helped him, while the only car that Ocon tried to fight for 2 years was the one of his teammate.
Itās not bad from Ocon but if he doesnāt truly evaluate his performance and he just feels he is better than Alonso because of this year he will never be able to step up
Thatās just a false narrative. Ocon has been fighting with everyone, including his teammate. The reason why they got into so many fights is because they were the only pair of drivers to be close to each other, with maybe russel and hamilton too.
Button had more points than him in 2015, but he ended way behind in 2016.
Trulli had more points than him after Italy 2004 (the race before he was sacked by Renault).
Technically, Hamilton and Marques also ended up in front in WDC in 2007 and 2001, but that was on countback for both of them.
The other two times he finished the championship with the same number of points as his teammate, loosing in other criteria. This is the only he was outscored.
This stat is showing combined years between teammates. Alonso was outscored in 2007 against Hamilton (ahead on count back), button in 2015 and Ocon in 2022.
I believe this is also the first time Esteban has ever outscored his teammate.
Won on countback against Wehrlein technically
Just like Alonso lost on countback to Lewis
What's countback?
The same amount of points (in that case it was zero), but higher best finishing position
Cheers! So P1 (25) and 1 dnf would be more seen as more successful than P3 (15) and P5 (10) despite being equal points?
Yes. It all starts as who had more wins (Ham/Alo 2007 or Leclerc/Perez before today or Ham/Max before Abu last year), then highest position. Unsure what happens if they have the same highest position tho.
then it's the number of P2s, if that's equal, number of P3s, etc
And if all that is the same the FIA can literally just pick whoever they want
it would be hilarious if a championship came down to that because there would be some internal politics and a shitstorm to follow
My guess is, since it's FIA's to choose, they can just create a special event (a Championship Showdown or something like that) and choose the winner of said event as WDC
In fact HAM/ALO 2007 was decided on most 2nd places, not most wins. It goes like this: 1. Most points 2. Most wins 3. Most 2nd places 4. Most 3rd places 5. Most 4th places 6. Etc.
It's a different word for tiebreaker. Going back and comparing some other result when tied - number of wins, highest finishing position in races, etc.
Insane
Not that insane considering he had Alonso, Perez and Ricciardo as teammates so far.
Helps when the teammate has to retire so many races
Alonso and the Alfa Romeo dudes competing for who got bullied by the reliability fairy more this year
Poor Zhou. I think he was quite impressive this year, but due to reliability, his season was trash on paper.
Great job by Ocon this year, but as everyone knows, reliability has been Alonso's biggest rival this year.
You mean Alpine outscored Alonso
El Plan < Al Pine
Al Pain
All Pain
All š„
r/Angryupvote
Yes itās flukey, still impressive from Ocon. Quali battle ended up being Alo 23-Oco 21 which I would guess is also among the better performances from his teammates.
Ocon is immensely underrated I swear. Yes, Fernando would've got (few) more points than him if they had equal luck in 2022, but redditors use that as an excuse to overlook the fact that they have been quite level matched for two straight years both in quali and race. Also, Ocon had more issues and bad luck in 2021 than Fernando did. I don't understand in which world Fernando is still rated one of the best drivers in F1 and Esteban isn't rated at all as if he was some MSC or Zhou.
People loved to reference the ānever beaten a teammateā thing without the context of who those were, where everyone heās compared to have teamed with a rookie or a subpar driver at some point. And if they discredit him having done it, he was the Alonso in 2018.
I think it's unfair on Button to group him together with Massa and Raikkonen as teammates Alonso 'has shown clear dominance' over. I don't think that's true, Button was way closer in performance to Alonso than them.
Button does get a bit screwed here because it counts 2016 where he was retiring and didn't even want to see out the season but had to due to contracts
I didn't realise Alonso got so many more points than Button. Pretty decent since Button outscored Hamilton over the three years they were together at McLaren.
**Mc**Laren
This was easily Ocon's best season so far, so good job done by him, not much to fault. But, as far as Alonso's season is concerned, it's hard to really judge it by points alone.
Alonso was better but Alpine fucked him so many times.
At least in McLaren-Honda both drivers got shitty engines..
Ocon has had plenty of unreliability this year and last year his reliability was worse than Alonso's. As for at McLaren, Alonso had 72% of the McLaren mechanical DNFs of 2017 and 75% of 2018, but that's not a conspiracy apparently...
If I read this bullshit one more time. We have acknowledged that Esteban has had a good season. Don't ruin it ffs.
Ocon had two DNFās one of which when he was running 17th. Alonso had 6ā¦
When Ocon had to retire he was behind Alonso, when Alonso has had to retire he was in front of Ocon more often than not.
Lol what a ridiculous comment
Alonso was the faster driver in 2017 and 2018 so it makes sense, he put more lateral Gs on the engine and spent more time on the throttle, ergo put more stress on the engine.
I don't think it's really impressive when Alonso's car kept shitting the bed all the time.
It's impressive as Fisichella or Massa wouldn't have achieved that even with Alonso having this bad reliability.
When Alonso was signed people in here were saying that Ocon was about to get Vandoorned. But Ocon held pretty well overall. Ocon had more dnfs last year and had his own issues this year as well, heās just not nearly as loud or gets tv coverage like Alonso
>Ocon had more dnfs last year One more DNF than Alonso (3 to 2) >had his own issues this year as well 2 DNFs compared to Alonso's 6 DNFs and one DNS.
Ocon had a broken car for four races last year and didn't score points until Alpine eventually changed all the parts.
I do wonder though. Was Alonso pushing the car more, which meant getting better pace but also occasionally burning it out? While Ocon nursed the car at a slower but more reliable pace.
Alonso was pushing his car last year too but he had zero engine related DNFs.
Doubt any team allows their driver to destroy the engine. We've seen in Mexico he mentioned on the radio how he's nurising until a few laos time the engine alpine'd.
that doesn't really make sense
Kinda interesting that aside from Hamilton, Trulli and Ocon were the ones to suffer the least against Alonso. Guess that strong qualifier + very tough (sometimes too tough) on defense combo is the key to not get demolished by him.
It's not just about skill of particular teammate, It has lot to do with team politics, car characteristics and other things. In 2003-04 Alonso was young and not as well estabilished, so team and car wasn't built around him way it was in his later career. Hamilton was Ron Dennis protege and knew Bridgestones way more than Alonso Button was in McLaren way longer, had strong position within team and his driving style was pretty simillar to Fernando. Alpine is French team with pretty ego-driven leadership In fact Trulli wasn't much better than Fisichella, Massa or Vandoorne, but team atmosphere was far better in time he was Alonso teammate. Kimi was better than any of his teammates bar Hamilton but was terribly unlucky to end up in politized and toxic team with car being exact opposite of his driving style.
I don't think saying he showed clear dominance against Button is an accurate representation of what actually happened. * In 2015, Button was fully motivated and outscored Fernando, but that was mainly down to the car's reliability operating on a "Russian Roulette" type fashion. Both drivers were realistically pretty equal across the season, with Jenson having a fractionally higher average finishing position, and Fernando having a fractionally higher average qualifying position. * In 2016, Button didn't even want to race - it took a massive pay offer from McLaren to get him to stay, and even then his heart was never in it. Alonso therefore had him easily beaten at a complete canter and he definitely dominated him that year - and since the McLaren was far more competitive, that created the big points disparity that we see in the overall total.
I just hope 5-10 years from now people understand and remember the context of alpine engines being a joke specially with Alonso... Ocon did a great job but it stings how unfair it feels when he should've been fighting with Norris
People tend to never remember that. Ocon beaten Perez in qualifying and head to head finishes in 2018 but ended behind him in WDC because he got a lot more DNFs, and everyone talks like Checo was easily beating him.
Itās just what people do. Put context on everything they need context for to make their point, and be forgetful when itās convenient. Ocon had several races with a cracked floor last year but weirdly itās NEVER brought up
> Ocon had several races with a cracked floor last year but weirdly itās NEVER brought up Well yeah, everyone knows that unreliability only counts when it happens to Fernando's car.
Ocon had 5 DNFs to Perez's 2, sure. But Perez's retirements were both caused by technical issues, whereas 3 of Ocon's were due to collisions. In two of which he was arguably at fault (cutting RƤikkƶnen off in Baku, Gasly in France). Saying he was drastically more unlucky isn't reasonable. And with a points difference of 62 to 49, a single DNF (that wasn't his fault) more wasn't the difference maker there. If you wanna calculate points-per-races he finished, Ocon averaged 3.0625 that season. Funnily enough, this is an example of you not looking at enough context.
On top of the 6 DNF, Ocon also had one disqualification because of fuel limits in the US. Let me also play the game of cherry picking statistics to make the point that I want to make: Ocon qualified ahead of Perez 16-5, average grid position was 10th for Ocon vs 11th for Perez. On races they both finished, Ocon finished ahead of Perez 9-5, and overall season on laps they were both in race he was ahead 611-411. Average finish position was also lower for Ocon.
It's not cherry-picking stats to point out that there's more to racing than just raw pace both in quali and the race. Ocon primarily lost that season because he crashed with others more than Perez did. I did completely miss the US DSQ, tho. But even if you wanna include it, that's only a six-point swing to Ocon. It doesn't close the gap.
Also, Ocon had more issues and bad luck than Fernando in 2021, but Redditors won't acknowledge that either.
But he got very lucky with his win in Hungary so kinda evens out.
5-10 years from now nobody will give a shit about Alpine 2022 intra-team battle.
Bold from you to assume this will take that long. Iād say halfway next season.
Lol no. People right now are looking at Sargeants result sheet and saying he's not good enough for F1. It's a shame but both Ocon and Alonso are great drivers anyway so it doesn't matter.
They will not, you just know it. Just like with Carlos and Charles in 2021 and George and Lewis this year after Lewis wasted the front half of the season trying extreme setups to gather data. People only look at results sadly.
Or that Button outscored Hamilton over their 3 years while ignoring his 2012 season and him losing around 100 points because of reliability
The winter last season was painful as a Leclerc fan with people saying Sainz was better. I have a feeling that people will do the same to Lewis and George, when its clear Lewis is still a better driver.
Why is it painful? Don't be influenced by biased tweets or Reddit posts. The unbiased fans know Leclerc last year and Hamilton this year just had more bad luck. Still Sainz and Russell were very impressive in their first year in the team.
I honestly think George was just better this year he even outscored Lewis after summer break and the Mercedes had no mechanical dnfs until today
George took the moments but objectively Lewis was slightly faster in races, qualy and had more bad luck. Today was a good example of that and it's hard to say George was "better" when Lewis was stronger in most of the races this year. I would give it to George, he delivered the pole, wins and was quicker in the 1st 3rd of the year and consistently quick all tracks. George also is great at calling his strategy compared to Lewis and that's helped him this year. We'll see next year.
He outscored Hamilton because he himself threw it in Spa and had to start last in Monza. He was only faster in Monza and Brazil than Hamilton. In total he was maybe quicker in 6 or 7 races total.
Thatās part of racing making mistakes cost you and Hamilton only has himself to blame for Belgium and the engine Penalty in monza.
"trying extreme setups" seems like pure copium to me tbh. George was just more prepared to drive a shit box lol, he has a lot of experience in shit boxes. I'm sure it's a difficult adjustment to go from fighting for a win every weekend to fighting for points, but everyone else does it, so I can only have so much sympathy. George just quietly and consistently got everything he could have out of the car. Lewis definitely outdrove the car a few times, but George drove at a higher level over the course of the whole season.
Thatās exactly what he was doing though. Lewis was gathering data which was why he was having wild swings in results, especially qualifying. No oneās taking away from George, but Lewis took one for the team early on to push them forward.
"pure copium" Both Lewis and Toto have acknowledged that Lewis was running experimental set-ups (up to Canada) to advance their understanding of the car overall. George was able to set up the car aimed at getting the best out of the car for each race weekend. Lewis wasn't able to do that until Silverstone. There's no question that compromised him. Lewis even said publicly if Mercedes wanted to continue to do that, George could take over the responsibility. So....maybe make conclusions based on facts rather than your feelings.
They donāt call him Oconsistency for nothing
Ocon beat him by only 11 points where Alonso lost over 60 points because of reliability. He would have easily beaten Lando. Alonso is still one of the top drivers on the grid.
If you put Alonso in that Red Bull, he'd have been closer in points to Verstappen than to third place.
And if McLaren hadn't had such a terrible car early in the season and at some later tracks like Spa, and Lando hadn't had engine issues in Canada & braking issues in Austria and McLaren hadn't screwed up his strategy several times during a race, losing him points and more than once dropping him behind Alonso, handing Alonso extra points when Lando had been ahead of him all race up until then, and if Alonso hadn't smashed into Gasly in Miami, which then resulted in Gasly taking Lando out of the race, he'd have many more points as well and Alonso likely wouldn't have finished ahead of him still. There were also several races where Ocon had issues in qualifying that then had a knock on effect into his race finishes which you all like to ignore. Also if Bottas hadn't been let down by a terrible run of reliability and if Alfa had done a better job of developing the car through the season, keeping it up where it started,, he could have challenged for best of the rest too. You can't play that game for one driver and not for others. Just because Alonso had more visible or spectacular issues, doesn't mean those he was fighting against didn't have plenty of their own. The "over 60 points" is the maximum he might have scored, not what he actually would have done if his car hadn't broken down. Because there are other drivers on track who would have challenged him to those points. It never ceases to amaze me how Fernando's bigging up of himself gets taken as gospel by some fans.
And Lando has benefited from Alonso's misfortunes as well. P6 and would finish ahead of Lando in Saudi, wouldve qualified top 3 in australia without issues and couldve scored points in race without bad strategy, imola dnf at P7, wouldnt be knocked off in Q1in spain if the team communicated properly, top 5 finish in canada without engine problem, DNS in sprint and would have finished p6-p7 ahead of lando without pitting twice in 2 laps in austria, 4 points in italy without dnf, p5-p4 in singapore without dnf, would've finished higher in Japan wiithout bad strategy, wouldve finished higher than Lando in US if Stroll didnt try to end him, would finished at P6 ahead of lando without dnf in mexico. In the end, lando benefited quite a lot from Alonso's misfortunes as well
The 60 points thing always comes up, but I feel that with same reliability for both cars Alonso would have beat Ocon by 20-25 points. Cars break down all the time, just not as much as Alonso's ones did this season.
If Ocon's car broke down as much as Alonso's, maybe. If it was the other way around, it would've been at least 40 points gap.
Whenever Alonso has had to retire the car, he was running ahead of Ocon except for today, while the opposite wasn't true. And you also have to count the reliability issues which didn't necessarily mean a DNF. He would have outscored Ocon by quite a bigger margin than 20 points.
But because he was ahead at the time of retirement doesnāt mean he would have been ahead at the end of the race.
More than likely he would have finished ahead of him.
This 60 points is a myth really. It would mean he broke down 6 times from 5th position, which simply didn't happen. He had 6DNF's overall, and 3 times it was for very low/none points. Yes, he had some other problems, but so did Ocon. If we count out all DNF, he would beat Ocon, but no more than 15 points.
Itās not just the DNFs that cost him. The Australia hydraulics issue in quali and Canada engine issue were not DNFs but cost him probably close to 20 points.
I donāt know how you can count lost points when something happens in quali. Yes he could have qualified much better in Australia and yet score zero point.
It would be weird as fuck to qualify 3rd at least and not score points based on pace. So thats why people count it.
He also had an engine issue in during the race in Bahrain, hydraulic issue in Australia qualy, engine issue in Canada, couldn't start the sprint race in Austria while a wheel wasn't properly attached on the race... His issues were not only the DNF's.
If it werenāt for bad luck Alonso would have been world champion!!
As if ocon didnāt also lose a LOT of points lol
In comparison to Alonso? He didn't.
Ocon had 2 DNFs where Alonso had 6 . He did lose some points but not nearly as much as Fernando
Most of oconās problems came in quali tho.
Like when Alonso was on for a front row start in Australia but the hydraulics went ?
This comes up all the time.. but the vast majority of the lap is in the final sector. Alpine were at least 6 tenths behind the others in that sector. He could have been second or third row.
Itās not even close to the amount Alonso lost, if you watched all of 2022 itās very easy to see.
Alonsoās car would almost always shit the bed when he was in front of Ocon. Saudi ahead of Ocon Italy ahead of Ocon Singapore ahead of Ocon Mexico ahead of Ocon as for Ocon he was behind Nando both occasions the car went boom in Singapore and Silverstone.
Funny you didn't mentioned Abu Dhabi
The point still stands.
There we go again. Ocon lost a small fraction of the points that Alonso did and we hear, "But, but! Ocon had reliability issues too!" like they're remotely comparable.
Ocon has won more points from Alonso retirements than what he might have lost for his own reliabilty issues.. Alpine the way has handled Alonsos engines he was not allowed to compete. As simple as that. In fact Ocons season is pretty average.
Lmaooooooo
Stop inventing
You chose violence with this one
And the third one to not be outscored by him. Good to you know, Mr.Croft.
With how many DNFs from Alonso's car?
6 in total
And one DNS in the sprint in Austria
Don't forget that engine shitshow in Canada
And the hydraulic failiure during Q3 in Australia
Austria race was also a shit show
Can't believe Alpine refused to pit under SC with like 20 laps to go in that race and decided to pit a few laps later after
It would be easier to count the races it did finish this year.
Ocon is the most overlooked driver in F1 I swear. Yes, he did have less issues than Fernando, but that doesn't change that they even on good days they have been always close and swapping quali and race positions. Esteban can be extremely proud for himself.
This happens in the midfield all the time. Sometimes a quicker driver can just get outpointed by their slower teammate whether thats because of DNFs, strategy or a bit of both. There's been tons of cases of this happening in recent years. Good for Ocons CV though, he still had to be consistent enough to do it.
Maybe next year Fernando's car won't blow up every third race.
Damn, F1 fans can't give Ocon props on literally anything he does. People will always shit on him. Expecting the downvotes.
It's ridiculous tbh, and dates back to his days against Perez as well. Idk why people are so reluctant to give him his due. I think Gasly's going to get a shock next year when he goes up against him; and you can bet that if Estaban comes out on top, there will be a load more excuses as to why he's overrated & doesn't deserve it.
Brazil, the main reason
Sad that people still need to be reminded that one was mostly on Max being a hot head
It's beautiful seeing a Gasly fan saying this. Here's hoping next year's strong for them!
Let's see how this ages! I hope well
People just hate him for whatever reason. Whenever he does anything well it's always "yeah but Alonso...".
A french person in a french team with less mechanical issues than his non french team mate beats him points? HHHMMMMMMM /s obviously for the dumbasses getting wooshed.
The /s is not obvious when some people are saying this unironically in this very thread
You are being quite negative. People are right to question now the performance from Ocon since he is almost tied with Alonso in a season Alpine had a car to get MINIMUM over 100 points. No matter how much some ppl dislike Ocon, if he ended the season matched with norris the mayority of ppl would give him massive credit. In fact, most ppl are praising him in the face to face qualifying with Alonso this 2 years. Its just the performance over the season's Sundays has been bad and the fact he beat Alonso may overshadow it.
I'm incredibly new to watching the sport and came into it through Drive To Survive. Can you or anyone else fill me in on why people dislike Ocon? He seemed like kind of a sweetheart in the documentary and I've got a bit of a soft spot for him.
He was incredibly liked by fans for a while. Great young prospect, nice, humble, absolutely shouldnāt be off the grid, Mercedes should replace Bottas with him. Was dubbed āOconsistencyā. Then he got into an incident with a popular driver, and suddenly he was hated, useless, arrogant, doesnāt deserve his drive.
Crazy it happened 4 years ago and people are still mad about it. Everyone in the F1 world has moved on for a while now. Except some fans
I dont really know either. Ofc he has his fans as well. Alonso is such a powerhouse and the way he prioriced defending over him instead of the rest of the grid annoyed his fans. Checo is quite loved as well and Ocon had a few problems with him the time they raced togheter. He also had an incident with Max in the past, where I think Max was the one to blame the most, but at the end of the day his fans also blamed him.
I'm learning that this sport has weird allegiances that are hard to break, and some of them are entirely contradictory lol. My personal one is that I dislike Red Bull (hangover from my football fandom) and dislike Max, but am very fond of Checo. Don't know where that leaves me.
lol ffs you can't deny that Alpine one way or the other completely screwed Alonso throughout the year
Well done to him, although the ceiling is still higher for Alonso. Hope Alpine can have a better year next year
I can only give my opinion of what I saw, and what I saw was Alonso being clearly the better of the two this year.
"a bit more" bad luck :D
dnf's will do that to you
And races where he finishes P10 instead of top 6 because of mechanical issues.
Alpine A522 becomes the first car to screw Fernando Alonso to the point of him being unable to outscore his teammate. (maybe second, 2015 McHonda comes to mind)
I only needed a 300 DNF from Fernando
Marques beat him on countback. 9th in Brazil and Canada did it
As did Hamilton. But the title says "outscore", so I guess on that basis, it's accurate.
Both Marques and Hamilton beat him on countback but technically did not "outscore" him
Lewis as well. He had 5 P2s whereas Alonso had 4 P2s. They also both had 109 points, not 107.
Estenba
[I knew this post sounded familiar. ](https://twitter.com/rumz3y/status/1594356548683599874?t=r6WM3-WzTLu7tG81X_qCbA&s=19) Kudos to Ocon for being consistent. But can't deny the fact that Alpine'S reliability screwed Alonso this season.
"Bad luck"
This stat makes Ocon look better than he is, Alonso was clearly the superior driver.
How many of his retirements of Alonso came when he was behind Ocon on track? That's also an important factor to consider.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You are looking in the wrong way. You don't need to compare Ocon with Alonso. Alpice car this season was the fastest of the rest overall. With only 2 DNFs and not many other engine problems during races Ocon should be +100 points and fighting Norris. You may think Ocon is trash, but for the people who value his talent, ask him for +100 points this season was the minimum to praise him, and ending at 125 and beat Norris a season to really be proud of. Being happy just because he won Alonso who lost +40 points in reliability issues is loser mentality, but ngl, Its something cool to do.
Will Ocon had a broken chassis for 5 races last season and had 3 issues in quali this year (causing Q1 exits), but no one mentions that because those stats don't favour Alonso.
It only took alonso's car exploding 6 times!
TBF, he was already behind Ocon when his car expired, today.
today
Just out of curiosity, how many times was Alonso running in front of Ocon when his car expired?
Except today? All of them. Jeddah - Ahead Italy - Ahead Singapore - Ahead Mexico - Ahead Add there Canada, where he didn't DNF but engine issues cost him P6 at the very least, and Australia, where a failure compromised his strategy and race when he was on pace for an easy Top 5 in qualy.
Saudi, Singapore, Italy, mexico, Imola. So 5/6
I wouldn't call it "bad luck." The winds at Alpine changed since Rossi came on board. First by giving Ocon a long-term contract and Alonso a low-ball offer he knew he wouldn't accept. Rossi went out of his way not only to give Gasly a multi-year deal (which he wouldn't for Alonso), but he paid 8 figures to buy out his Alpha Tauri contract.
The offer they did of one more year and 2024+ in WEC is ridiculous and made them look like clowns
Forced retirement, which Rossi knew Alonso wouldn't accept. It was his way of getting rid of him while pretending he was a valued member of the team.
What they didn't expected atm was to lose Piastri too 1š¤£
That's the thing. Piastri told the Alpine team he signed with McLaren on July 4th, meaning Rossi had 4 weeks to give Alonso a good-faith offer, but he still did not budge. Going out of his way to pay the exit clause for a mediocre driver who also happens to be French shows the decision making of the team with him at the helm.
Button outscored him 2015
Tbh this isnt that impressive. Ocon had 2 dnfs, 1 outside of points while Alonso had 6 dnfs all within points + issues in Bahrain, Canada and Austria. On top of that Alonso is 41 at the moment and even with these issues he only finished few points off Ocon. Also wouldnt compare it to Massa,Raikkonen and Button as they had much younger version of Fernando. Ocon is solid midfield driver but nothing more than that
A bit like when Kvyat beat Ricciardo. Not really on merit, the more consistent driver simply had (a lot) more bad luck.
Ocon is terrible, Alonso, Checo would know. Good luck to his next teammate. Stroll is right there too. Those two should not be in F1, period.
Man o man, Alonso will demolish Stroll.
Yeah Iāll get over this one
Yeah same. This doesn't sting anywhere as bad as his loss against Lewis. But then again, that's Lewis Hamilton. This season Alonso was the better driver, but unfortunately had the worst reliability.
DNFs hurt more than bad driving apparently.
That must mean Ocon was the better driver than Alonso this season, right?
This post literally sums up peoplesā psychology. I wonāt be surprised if people just from a year now start chanting Ocon beat Alonso. With 9/22 races having issues, losing 50-60 points and Ocon mostly losing points when he was out of point scoring positions, no this is not impressive at all. Imagine Alonso scoring 130-140, and Ocon at 80. Nobody wouldāve said it was impressive, Ocon clearly underperformed with the reliability he has had throughout the season
100% this and the Ocon apologists are out already.
The "apologists"? Give me a fucking break dude. He has fans like every other driver.
paranoia
Thanks to shit reliability in Alonso's car actually. No way Ocon was better than Alonso
Not sure you can count any teammate made to crash as āoutscoringā.
More impressive is the fact that esteban outscored alonso over the 2 years they spent together.
But he also got 25 points because Alonso helped him, while the only car that Ocon tried to fight for 2 years was the one of his teammate. Itās not bad from Ocon but if he doesnāt truly evaluate his performance and he just feels he is better than Alonso because of this year he will never be able to step up
Thatās just a false narrative. Ocon has been fighting with everyone, including his teammate. The reason why they got into so many fights is because they were the only pair of drivers to be close to each other, with maybe russel and hamilton too.
Russe**ll**
This statistic is blatently ignoring the role of Alonso's car š
Lewis actually beat a prime Alonso and it was his rookie seasons says alot about his record
Ocon clearly deserve it.
On the broadcast they said this was only the third time Alonso has ever been beaten by a teammate during a whole seasonā¦. Which one is it
Both, he'd have been beaten by Hamilton and Marques on countback but not outscored.
Beaten by Button in 2015 as well.
But not overall over their time as teammates
Button had more points than him in 2015, but he ended way behind in 2016. Trulli had more points than him after Italy 2004 (the race before he was sacked by Renault). Technically, Hamilton and Marques also ended up in front in WDC in 2007 and 2001, but that was on countback for both of them.
The other two times he finished the championship with the same number of points as his teammate, loosing in other criteria. This is the only he was outscored.
This stat is showing combined years between teammates. Alonso was outscored in 2007 against Hamilton (ahead on count back), button in 2015 and Ocon in 2022.
Marques, Hamilton, and Button have all beaten Fernando Ocon just beat Fernando this season as well
Trulli too, in 2004 (up to and including Monza)
Very good point Still donāt know wtf happened that season between him and Renault
ham and the other tecnically beat him due to positions but with the same points, so both are true
He was beaten twice on a countback, but on equal points.