T O P
Camyx-kun

[He goes on to explain the benefits of F2 in regards to F1](https://twitter.com/callum_ilott/status/1567018408314810373?t=M_2BRc8RBy-AlfTAemv5PQ&s=19) 'Only track knowledge and Pirelli tires, which are very different in f1 as well. But obviously you’re around f1 environment so lots of little things are learned over time.' [He also states he believes Herta should be able to get an SL](https://twitter.com/callum_ilott/status/1567002483767246849?t=4cF1v3GBhFW937WS6zRLEQ&s=19) 'I would give him one. Just because there are rules doesn’t mean they are the best. If a team wants him, he’s earned that. Coming from someone with a superlicence, raced in F2 and now races against the man.'


poopellar

Kinda funny that his statements agree with both sides of the argument. I myself argued that F2 is a better stepping stone to F1, while others said Indy deserves to be the same. I guess Herta kinda throws all that out the window because he's that talented.


Camyx-kun

I guess what Ilott is trying to convey is a bit more of a balance. Sure F2 is a mildly better stepping stone to F1, however speed is above all and that a 'perfect feeder series' to F1 doesn't really exist because of how unique F1 actually is I think Indy deserves more, but specifically less of a drop off. Going into the final race there are 5 drivers still in contention for the championship. The driver who will win the championship will get 40 SL points, enough to drive in F1. The driver in 5th will get 8 SL points, less than P1-4 of FRECA and only 1 more point than 5th in that series. So depending on this final race there is a huge difference between SL points. That's absolutely shocking for such a competitive series


rabbidplatypus21

I don’t even understand why there has to be sides. Indycar can deserve more SL point allocation, Herta can have extenuating circumstances that show he deserves a SL even being a few points shy, *and* F2 can be the best stepping stone to F1 in regards to driver preparedness. All of those things can be true at the same time.


Ereaser

Exactly and I can totally understand that F1 doesn't want Indy to become the main feeder series for F2. But the current amount of points is ridiculous. Especially if you don't become champion.


pheoxs

My argument is rather simple: Many rookie drivers jumped up every year to the next series without issue. Take Piastri for example, he went from a 200hp formula Renault to a 380hp F3 the next year and won the championship. Then he jumped to a 620hp Formula 2 car the next year and won the championship. Professional drivers have spent their entire careers going to new tracks with new car setups. Saying stuff like they’ve never used Pirelli tires is such a ridiculous argument. The Aero is different? F2 doesn’t use ground effects so that’s also a null argument. Indy car is still a 720hp monster of a car, it still laps incredibly it fast. It’s still highly competitive racing. They still compete in pit stops performance to gain advantages. Is it identical? No. But neither if F2. Neither is any feeder series. But that’s the career evolution of any driver is adaptability. Arguing someone from high level Indy isn’t skilled enough while we’ve seen Mazepin on track before and Latifi is still out there is laughable.


poopellar

The thing with guys like Piastri, Norris, Lec, Rus is that they heavily benefited from already being a part of an F1 team. You would be shocked to learn that these guys did a lot of on track testing in similar cars to what they raced, technically different enough to not be considered cheating. Sure their natural talent is what made them attractive to these teams but preparation and experience helps a lot. Natural talent can make these obstacles simple but it is never a guarantee. There are first time F3 champs who've taken a couple of seasons in F2. Heck, even drivers in F1 struggle from switching teams. It is 100% not a guarantee that top drivers from any series would be just as good in F1. Vice versa is also true. Racing is like that.


EndlessHalftime

This is a straw man argument. No one is saying that there is a guarantee that Herta (or anyone else) will be good in F1. They’re saying that Indycar doesn’t give enough SL points and that Herta (or other good Indy drivers) shouldn’t be kept out of F1 because of it.


poopellar

I wasn't arguing against his point that top level Indy drivers deserve to be in F1. Just that his choice of argument about adaptability for it isn't exactly sound. Don't even know which part of my comment was straw man and against what, so if you don't mind telling me.


Alexander92020

Piastri had been apart of an F1 team for less than 2 years when he won f3 and f2 signed january 2020 won f2 December 2021.He won his entry into Renault by winning Formula Renault. He had his prema seat before Renault signed on so their help is highly exaggerated, he would have won f3 and f2 regardless of the F1 team. Piastri actually did nearly no pre season testing in F3 because of covid nor did he do the couple rounds of f2 at the end of the year before f2 like pourchaire and others did.


poopellar

Big assumptions on your part considering he won F3 on the last race, it could have easily gone the other way. Sure he is talented no doubt, but don't see how you can dismiss the benefits of being a part of an F1 team just for the sake of argument. Does it take more than 2 years to reap the benefits?


Alexander92020

I'm not assuming anything? If you wanted to go in to the detail with f3 we can it will be fun? I was stating facts he had his f3 seat with prema before his academy spot and he won f3 that is not assuming anything. Being in an academy has more caused him issues in recent times. But no being in an F1 academy helps you funds wise and prep wise for an F1 seat but not specifically your performance in f2 and f3. Which simulator do you think has more bearing on f2 and f3 Premas or Alpines?.


poopellar

Ah you've edited your previous comment. >Being in an academy has more caused him issues in recent times. That contract saga has zero relation to his performance in F3/F2, it happened after, why bring that up? > But no being in an F1 academy helps you funds wise and prep wise for an F1 seat but not specifically your performance in f2 and f3 How is not being in an academy help you prep wise? Also where did I argue that he didn't get the Prema seat before joining Alpine? Before you edited your comment you said he would have won F3 anyways which is what I argued against. I guess that's why you changed it.


Alexander92020

Edited for spelling mistakes lol or i was unhappy leaving out information so i often add things after I post then read.Why bring it up because I was thinking about Drugovichs comments recently when he said he feels in a better situation not being in an academy due to recent events. Yes he would have won F3 without Renault because the prema seat he had before renault signed him. The prema seat offer came in before the Renault offer did. Its pretty simple the seat was majority funded before Renault came and he won in that F3 prema seat. What changes other than Piastris backers stump up more money thats it he had the seat so i dont understand how you think that Renaults percentage of money affected his performance in f3


poopellar

Drugovich' comment was purely about contractual obligations, not about performance. He is free to talk to any team. You're again just making blind assumptions. By your logic any driver who gets the Prema seat on merit is a guaranteed champion, does not need to improve because he is already the best. Why don't you look watch that whole F3 season and tell me how dominant Piastri was? I'll give you a hint, he wasn't. It was super close till the last race. Also you're suggesting driver programs only give money. Do you know what driver programs even do? Why not look that up to. There is a lot that goes into prepping for open wheel racing and it costs money. Driver programs provide those personal and facilities to help make the driver better. Tell me how providing these advantages does not help a driver.


CornfireDublin

If the FIA granted him a Super License then Alpha Tauri could afford to put him in a FP session in each of the last 6 races. Between Indy and that, and whatever testing RB/AT (or whatever other team but I think AT are the frontrunners right now) give him in the offseason, he'd be more than prepared


SweetVarys

It's better in terms of the car and the tracks, but worse in terms of the competition you face. It's only super inexperienced rookies. Be consistently decent and you win, as you can se this year.


ze_canalha

Ilott did drive F1 cars, F2 cars and Indycars. He knows what he's talking about.


Retsko1

He was also a reserve for a team at some point right?


ze_canalha

He is the reserve driver for Alfa Romeo.


Alfus

*Vasseur in shambles* It's hilarious a bit how Ilott is telling some solid points meanwhile Vasseur is protecting his ART interests.


berkerpeksag

Callum also tries to protect his own interests while trying to make a career in the US and bashing IndyCar and American drivers wouldn't help his cause.


Retsko1

He is? I thought he left them when he went to Indy


ze_canalha

[He covers for Kubika when WEC is racing.](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.motorsport.com/f1/news/ilott-alfa-romeo-f1-miami/10291085/amp/#ip=1)


tekina7

So, reserve driver for the reserve driver?


Retsko1

It says he's es independent but good to see that Alfa rates him


Cobretti18

For Alfa Romeo and he’s had a run in the Ferrari before


oh84s

Keep in mind most drivers will also talk up the skill level in their respective series.


Supahos01

Why on earth is callum ilott trying to be reasonable on Twitter....


Takis12

he did not read the terms and policies....


SirLoremIpsum

Elon's gonna call him a pedo now


FzBtz

So it's not a problem then


ExpertOpposite

I think he’s just trying to say that comparing and projecting a drivers performance between series isn’t simple. However, he still ultimately believes a top Indy driver should be able to transition to F1.


sanyosukotto

I mean they literally have before. No reason to think that's changed as the cars grow more advanced.


Waldier

Just give Hertha a SL and use him as a test case. If he fails we can skip the discussion that Indy is good preparation for F1. If he succeeds award Indy the same SL points as F2.


natus92

a bit ironic that Verstappen kinda was the anti test case. Super young and fast driver rushes into f1, as a result fia more clearly laid out that people like him shouldnt be able to join f1


Mathsforpussy

Kinda funny nothing happened after Kimi even though he was almost just as controversial as Max. Only 23 car races before his first F1 outing. In the end both became world champion so they weren't too bad. Definitely not warranting tightening the rules.


pulianshi

I think, in general, drivers that come in super young or inexperienced tend also to be super talented. Raikkonen and Verstappen both had ridiculously little preparation for F1, yet were competitive and capable from day one because they were just that good. Even though the superlicense rules were more of a reaction to Verstappen, I feel they anticipated people like Stroll. Stroll came in at a ridiculously young age as well, mostly due to his dad's money, but he did first have to win F3 to be able to do that. As a comparison, we can take Mazepin. It was clear that Mazepin's goal from the beginning was to buy an F1 seat at some point. Yet, the super license rules practically kept him out until he could show a minimum modicum of pace (still embarrassingly slow and dangerous to boot, but at least he'd spent time in feeder series and improved from having been far worse a couple years before). Similar can be said for Latifi. He couldn't join F1 until after he finished F2 in 2019 as vice champion, at which point he had shown that he was fast enough to compete on his day, which was the case until he entirely shat the bed during this regulations change.


KingoftheHill63

I think we can equate it to a physical sport. Sure there's gonna be some freaks that will be ready to play at 15/16 but kids safety overall it's good to have a 18+ limit so they don't get snapped in half


pulianshi

Pretty much. Every athlete wants to get into the top flight as fast as possible. In F1, that means 17 year olds with raw speed but hot heads and not much physical training nor consistency. Sure, the one example of a 17 year old we ever had was fine, but it's easy to see how the next one could've been a horrible thing for the sport. The 18 year minimum and the super license rules generally mean that every F1 driver that comes into F1 now has at least 3 years of car racing experience (the very best karters switch to cars with regional F4 at about 15 - the minimum age in turn for those series). They might then go straight to F3 or they could do an in-between series. Then F2. If they don't get the right results they can do another year in F3 or F2. If you're Oscar Piastri, it's 4 years of car racing experience before F1, including 3 rookie championships in a row. That's clearly a much better prepared (and slightly older) driver than Max was (with the F3 Florida winter series and half a season of F3 Euro to speak of)


Mathsforpussy

Completely agree with you that the SL rules do keep a lot of junk out. We don't want someone like Raghunathan on the F1 grid and it definitely got rid of most of the horendous pay drivers (think Galael, Nissany, Sato). Fun fact: F1's arguably worst pay driver to ever hit the grid, Yuji Ide, would probably get the super license. He'd get it based on his 7th, 2nd and 3rd place in Formula Nippon (now Super Formula) which would get him 38 points. He'd only need two FP1s on top of that.


borg_legion

It’s almost like the teams generally know what they’re doing in scouting talent, and some arbitrary system from the FIA isn’t necessary.


innovator97

This. I think it definitely better to have one actual run instead instead of just dicussing hypothetical only. If it work, we'll adapt a new rule. If not, we can just keep quiet about it.


Blapstap

What is the context that he is vocal about this? Does he also have chance? Or does he want hertha to succeed?


Camyx-kun

He was asked about the differences between F2 and Indy regarding Herta drama Also I linked it in another comment but [he also believes Herta should have a superlicense ](https://twitter.com/callum_ilott/status/1567002483767246849?t=4cF1v3GBhFW937WS6zRLEQ&s=19)


Codydw12

Hazel really pissed off a lot of people with those comments including going after a (former?) IndyCar PR person.


Mysterious_Turnip310

She’s an accredited journalist but whenever I see her talking about anything to do with anything other than FE, more often than not she sounds like a young fan who found the sport through DTS & picked up a few talking points via reddit. I know she’s primarily an FE journalist but there are times when her motorsport knowledge is sketchy at best.


l3w1s1234

Even with FE she clearly has her favourites and is willing to bend the truth to put her favourite drivers in a better light. Gio having a broken car in FE was one she insinuated to the point people belived her as though it was fact. However, she never followed that with any facts backing it up. Her main reasoning being that Gio is simply too slow for it to be him or dodgy strategies and she had a gut feeling on it. She didn't even acknowledge questions asking why the team or driver hasnt said that to be the case, or why they would cover it up.


innovator97

Even in FE, I don't like her that much tbh. Something feels off about her way of doing stuff, I guess.


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Mysterious_Turnip310

That‘a a ridiculous false equivalency. ETA: I’ve also read through her tweets and her primary argument is the fact that F3/F2 are the established FIA routes to F1 with the advantages like learning the tracks, working with the Pirellis, being around the F1 environment etc & therefore those drivers should take priority, even in a year like this year where none of the current F2 crop are that promising and we have a promising Indy driver who had a very good albeit brief stint in Euro junior series. She’s failing to take into consideration that a lot of promising racers have to drop out of that ladder for financial reasons, Herta included. Let’s take 2015 MSA Formula Championship. There were three big junior talents just starting out who landed 1-2-3 that year - Lando Norris, Ricky Collard & Colton Herta respectively. All three showed real promise but only one even made it to Euro F3/GP3 let alone F2 because of financial reasons. Despite Collard & Herta having good runs in their respective 2016 championships, they both struggled to get enough funding together for decent drives in the 2017 Euro F3 campaign, so Collard ended up heading to touring cars & then endurance racing and Herta ended up back in the US on the path to Indy Lights. Norris had the talent edge on them both, but they weren’t far behind him at all & could both have been highly competitive at F3 & F2. We’re not talking a Palou here who was thoroughly underwhelming in Euro single seaters. Her other argument is that Herta has never won a single seater championship which is just a ludicrous argument. By that token, neither had Max until last year.


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Mysterious_Turnip310

Yea it absolutely is. Just because both sports are played on a court with a net & a racquet does not mean that they have similar DNA. I honestly can’t figure out if you’re trolling here or really believe what you’re saying.


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Mysterious_Turnip310

Fair enough. Apologies for thinking you were. I still don’t see how you equate this to Indy & F2 though. The equivalence would make more sense to me if you were comparing F1 to NASCAR. The divergence isn’t anywhere near as far between F1 & Indy, especially when we’re talking a driver who excels on the road courses as Herta does. Yes there’s some divergence in driving style required for the different machinery but an adaptable driver who is talented enough will overcome that, especially now they can use a sim. It’s impossible to say how well he’ll actually adapt if he does get granted the exemption, but her arguing he doesn’t deserve it in any way is just disingenuous imo. Especially as her arguments ended up descending into personal insults and a load of factually incorrect statements about Herta’s career.


philleach11

It’s fine if she has an opinion about the super license. But there were a lot of things that she said that were just false. She said that Colton drives for his dad’s Indy team and that his dad bought him the seat. Not sure where that came from? She also went on a rant about engine suppliers that made absolutely no sense at all. And then she attacked an Indycar reporter/PR person for trying to tell her that her argument made no sense. Lastly, Indycar and F1 are a lot closer as disciplines than badminton and tennis imo.


WalkerHuntFlatOut

There are screenshots https://twitter.com/williamsburg_12/status/1567160471249211392?t=NiPNVX_9eGSvr2h8YRbQAQ&s=19


philleach11

Because she was saying things that were objectively false and defending herself to death. It was quite embarrassing


Codydw12

Absolutely, between implying Colton's dad bought him a seat, misspelling Marcus Ericsson as Ericksson and whatever the fuck her Honda or Chevy comment was supposed to be. Ultimately her meltdown read the exact same as F1 elitist here, which I find funny because I just had the same argument over the weekend with someone thinking IndyCar isn't a top series.


SPECTOR99

Is she a journalist though? She looks like ameture wannabe journalist with zero credibility and zero knowledge of motorsports world outside of F1 and few niche categories. She's blabbering about Chevy and Honda engines in Indycar and comparing F2 Mechachromes with them? I mean seriously? She's also saying Indycar isn't a FIA sanctioned category, she can literally search in the internet who sanctioned that category and it'll lead her to ACCUS the FIA arm overseeing Indycar, IMSA and other motorsport categories in NA.


Codydw12

I've previously enjoyed her insights on Formula E's technicals but everything else you said is spot on. There's a reason why me and the rest of the /r/IndyCar Discord were giggling like school girls all last night.


SPECTOR99

Hahaha, it would be nice if you could share what were the reaction of others in the discord.


Codydw12

He was asked on Twitter and is giving his full opinion on the matter.


mightymegson

Rinus Veekay looks decent as well. Most fast drivers struggle for funding in f1 :(


jewnicorn27

What is naturally fast?


BasedTheorem

If you’ve ever sim raced, you see some people just have an inherit talent that makes them better at finding grip and finding lines than others.


MateTheNate

In the context of racing, there are people who may be the fastest around the track but may be accident prone, and people who may not be as fast in a single lap but are good at conserving and strategy. People suppose that fast people like Verstappen can be taught the other stuff but not the other way around as much.


AdamClay2Klbs

Get some IndyCar and NASCAR drivers in to F1! Enough of these teenagers!


philleach11

Definitely not nascar without some proper open wheel experience. However the fact that Jimmie Johnson, who wasn’t even the best road course racer on his own team, would’ve qualified for a super license if the points system had been around back then, tells me everything I need to know about how flawed the system is.


borg_legion

NASCAR maybe a bit more sketchy, might be a good idea to do some kind of intermediate series in between. Stock cars primarily on ovals to open wheelers exclusively on road courses is a helluva transition. Not to mention nascar’s liberal attitude towards contact and track limits. Watching nascar drivers do the handful of road courses is already hilarious.


norrin83

And some MotoGP drivers while we're at it.


DisastrousRegister

Don't get me wrong, they definitely have the reaction times and ability to learn given enough time, but that's like going from being an [all-star basketball player to a professional baseball player.](https://www.mlb.com/news/featured/michael-jordan-the-real-story-of-his-baseball-career)


macaronilover808

Thank you Callum for validating Indycar! It really should get way more credit as a series and as a feeder for F1


han_cholo_thethird

Jimmie Johnson should get an SL if we're having this discussion. He's a seven-time nascar champion and he drives in IndyCar now. Certainly his credentials are comparable to Lewis Hamilton right?


philleach11

He would’ve qualified back in the day if this system had existed, that’s the crazy part. He’s a great driver but wasn’t even the best road racer on his own team… certainly shows how bad the system is, imo


l3w1s1234

Hes pretty poor on the road and street circuits in Indycar. Definitely would flounder in F1.


GT---44

So why is it a problem? "It's a problem........ But it's not a problem" , cool man


JadeNoodlesOfficial

It seems more like he’s replying to someone else, “the problem is that there is no good comparison to F1” but that there isn’t a skill issue, “it would not be a problem (to adjust)”


philleach11

There is a whole thread, this tweet is just a snippet of his comments


Alexander92020

Drivers making F1 form IndyCar is Ilotts way back to F1 when the door seemed closed so any of the IndyCars drivers making it in F1 opens that door back up


Skeeter1020

Illot qualifies for a Super License and was associated with an F1 team.


f1_spelt_as_bot

I**l**o**tt**


Alexander92020

Yes that doesn't change that If IndyCar becomes a better proven avenue into F1 that helps him no?


Skeeter1020

If he was going to get to F1 he'd be there already


Alexander92020

the way the system is now yes that is my point if f1 start to look at indycar success then boom that opens his chance again


Skeeter1020

He qualifies for a Super License now.


Alexander92020

Im not claiming that and never did. If Herta gets into F1 and does well that opens up F1 to keep an eye on IndyCar to bring back successful drivers into F1. That is what I said. If Ilot performs in IndyCar his buzz is more likely to get him a shot in F1 than it would have before. Im not claiming anything about his SL points.


Skeeter1020

Do you think F1 teams don't look at IndyCar already?


Alexander92020

Not as much as Europe or much at all until the last couple years. That is where SL comes into this the more viable it will be if the top talent gets enough points the more likely that is where they will look. Im also explaining why Ilott has interest in this whole thing


Skeeter1020

I'm sorry that's just garbage. F1 talent scouts haven't just accidentally forgotten about IndyCar. What a ridiculous claim.


f1_spelt_as_bot

Ilo**tt**


jorgekorke

I think people are missing the point when we talk about F2 and F3 being skipped. It's not a matter of whether a driver can learn the car or not. The issue is the system. By allowing an outsider to skip the line, you are giving the middle finger to every one of those teams who work in those feeder series, and make even more blatant that those championships doesn't matter.


Lemmealonepl0x

Skip the line? C'mon son. That protectionism mentality is exactly the issue here.


jorgekorke

If you don't value your own product, who else will?


pulianshi

When it's clear that F1 teams are looking elsewhere because they don't believe current F2 drivers have enough talent for F1, for the FIA to block that off in a protectionist fashion would signify the downfall of F1. If the feeder series system isn't producing the best and most promising F1 talent, it needs to be fixed, not protected.


WalkerHuntFlatOut

Why is the product so bad if they value it so highly


SeasonalDisagreement

F1 is the product. F2 is not the product. Having the best drivers in the world, regardless of where they come from, is what is best for their product. It also grows racing as a whole, which grows F1.


Camyx-kun

It *could* be viewed that way, however I counter that if F1 teams are looking outside of the system than the system isn't doing its job properly (which is evident from the pay drivers in F2/F3) And prioritising the feeder series over the raw talent of other drivers is incredibly disrespectful. Also going through Indycar shouldn't be considered skipping the line, talent is above everything.


SeasonalDisagreement

That's like saying Real Madrid should only be filled with players from their youth academy.


BrokeChris

"won't have a problem getting up to speed in an F1 car" yeah sure buddy


Camyx-kun

I mean if anyone knows about Indy, F2, and F1 it's Callum, considering he's driven all 3 cars