Correct, Red Bull use pull rods in the front and push rod in the rear. Ferrari use push rod in the front and pull rod in the back. In theory both performs similar, but I have read that pull rods is better for packaging (lower in the car).
pull rods are better for the car because most of the heavy parts are lower and thus the center of gravity sits lower and the car is more responsive and well balanced. On the other end push rods have most of their part sitting higher and the trade off is in the ease of setup/repair
Generally speaking. Push rod in the front makes packaging simpler and allows you to make the car lighter. Pull rod is better for center of gravity, but also heavier.
The opposite is true in the back. Pull rod allows for easy packaging as you can place the gearbox over the suspension. Push rod allows you to place the gearbox lower but it's also a lot trickier to make it fit under the suspension.
That's why Alfa's design is so impressive. They went for pull in front and push in back while while also managing to stay at minimum weight.
Check out the diagonal component of the suspension setup. From the wheel to the body it goes bottom to top for Ferrari and opposite for Red Bull. So when the wheel moves up it the diagonal rod pushes in on the Ferrari whereas it pulls out for Red Bull. Both are connected to a resistance mechanism within the body.
It’s amazing how different the cars are, and yet they are trading blows for fastest from weekend to weekend. Two teams with clean sheet regs managed to come out that close to each other in performance. What a time to be a race fan.
[Jordan did it first.](https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/118615172_181991263336510_9174712684527061467_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-6&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=da2zlDZNnBgAX94CP9X&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=00_AT84CWHu6f7SjUuYAYcWmBD-DZIutJoXCgM_LuqJMuIaGg&oe=629C4557)
> the Prancing Bull
I mean that's basically their [DTM entry](https://files.gpblog.com/news/2021/04/08/v2_large_1ac873b29469e6d26ec80d2ef1673da1bfa5fab6.jpg)
It's even weirder now that they once used Ferrari engines in F1 too, but I guess in 2006 nobody was taking Red Bull seriously yet, so they could ask for any pu they wanted, as long as they paid for it.
Seb got the first win in Minardi/Toro Rosso history in 2008 and the first win in Red Bull history (not counting Herbert’s win for Stewart) in 2009. Since then Red Bull has won 76 more races, and Toro Rosso has won 1 more (as AlphaTauri with Gasly).
Some teams will evolve their own cars if they still see potentials. Building a new car is one thing, but understand how it works is another. That's also why teams can't copy every part from other cars, unless it works on their own car too.
Even for racing point they suffered greatly from last year due to not understanding the car they copied. The little triangle cut out in the back of the floor really fucked them much more than it fucked the W12.
The only true case of copying working out really well was tbe Williams FW07. But that was a unique case and more a testament to Patrick Head and his ability to understand how the Lotus 79 worked better than Lotus.
Racing point copied Mercedes' 2019 car and it worked well for 2020. But with the rule changes in 2021 the lack of fully understanding the car's philosophy was probably the main reason for Aston Martin's struggles to adapt.
Teams will try to do their own thing if there isn't a large difference in pace. 1 second seems a lot but not enough to scrap your not fully developed car to work on something new.
1 second per lap? That’s an eternity. That’s being in a different class basically. I’d say it’s reason to scrap your designs.
As long as you’re certain the cars at fault and not the drivers.
They won't actually try to build a car like Ferrari. There will be right things and some wrong things and when you take what other teams are doing right and implement that is when cars start to look alike. Racing Point in 2020 was and probably will be an outlier.
I own a Honda RC51 and a Ducati 999, which traded wins and championships in wsbk in the early 2000s. Both are V-twins and both built under the same regulations, and it is fascinating how entirely different they are both on the outside and when you take them apart.
Technical regulations keep things relatively similar. These are all basically different versions of the same car, they’re not 100% unique by any means.
Horsepower and weight really play into it. The other stuff matters too, but for shaving time more than for setting the foundations.
The cars may be different, but they stick to very similar dimensions, power, weight and tires. So unless someone finds some black magic to shave tenths, they will all perform very similar.
When the bootleggers used to run from the cops lol. I think the very early days of racing there was no rules, but I honestly don’t know. I know they had requirements extremely early on in organized racing but not sure if the very begging had any or not.
Remember when IndyCar allowed Honda and Chevrolet to develop their own aero kits for their teams on the DW12? The cars looked massively different. By the next year both sides learnt from their own and each other's mistakes and developed kits that looked completely identical. For the third year IndyCar scrapped the idea.
Same for me. Before the start of the season i was worried because i thought that the cars would look all the same. Fortunately i was wrong and the cars are really different one from another
People who make these mashup photos always seem to prioritize making the ends of each car meet up visually even though they may be different sizes and width.
The tires and wheels are the same. They are just saying that the Ferrari image is zoomed in closer than the Red Bull image.
This means the scale of the two cars doesn't match, so the sizes cannot really be compared.
Is it also to do with airflow over the top? Those deep side pod bowls will guide the attached air much lower so the rear wing needs to go deep to scoop it up again
I am not an aerodynamicist it just made sense to me this way
I actually believe the sidepods are directing more airflow to the beam wing, rather than the floor (like Red Bull) or the rear wing. Also doesn't hurt that it also helps to extract the hot air coming out of the louvers.
The area underneath the sidepods of the Red Bull is significantly larger than that of the Ferrari. This means the extraction of air through the side of the floor (basically acts like a 2nd diffuser) is further back and therefore, the aero balance of the car is further rearwards. This, along with the slimmer front wing (increases clean airflow to the floor intakes) should give them more underbody downforce but can also result in a car with a weak front end.
My thoughts:
(1) Different aero setups.
(2) Generally better starts from Ferrari than Red Bull this year.
(3) Haas and Alfa Romeo doing better than Alpha Tauri.
Well they are meant to have an edge over the bulls in slower corners whereas the bulls are faster in a straight line. Makes sense too given the lower drag on bull’s side pods vs likely better downforce generated by those bathtubs on the Ferrari.
Counterintuitively the Ferrari side pods are actually less draggy than the RedBull. It’s the front loaded floor design where Ferrari get their downforce/slow speed pace from.
Two different designs can have a similar performance when it comes to aerodynamics. At least that's what I have learned from [Kyle.Engineers (ex-Mercedes engineer) on YT.](https://www.youtube.com/c/KYLEDRIVES/videos)
They also have a lot in common. For example: both use 4 wheels, a front and rear wing, steering wheel (and gloves probably) and they also have sidepots. Not so different after all /s
Silly question here, but do the cars need to be symmetrical? I'm wondering if they can make minor aerodynamic adjustments across the width of the car to better suit certain tracks that may have more left hand turns for example, or faster turns in one direction but tighter turns in the other.
In theory they could. It would depend on the circuit, and whether the advantage they gained would offset the time lost elsewhere. I know Nascar has designs heavily biased to help the left-turn-only nature of the tracks.
Its quite a lot of differences from such a prescriptive rule set, pre season lots of news outlets were telling us that we would have a grid of 20 near identical cars .
As someone who doesn't get to watch a lot of the races, but follows F1 because you guys have some ridiculous memes, it's really nice to see the differences in design and solutions that teams come up with side by side like this.
As a new fan, this has been the most eye opening picture for me. All the cars *do* look the same…when I don’t know how to look for the differences. Fascinating.
On the aerodynamic front Ferrari are basically still running the same car they brought to the Bahrain Test. The Red Bull has been upgraded heavily, with the last updates brought at Imola.
Pretty much all teams have brought some significant upgrade to their cars since february *but Ferrari*. Red Bull got the spec 2 sidepods in Bahrain that literally put them back on top (they were kinda meh before that), and Mercedes literally shed itself down, to mixed results.
Ferrari on the other hand brought very few, circuit specific upgrades, and it's still the car to beat. Only now they have unlocked a bit more power to their P.U, which is already thought to be the best of the field.
If Ferrari gets their updates right (and that's a big if - see 2018), and keeps that methodical approach they've had so far, things could be over sooner rather than later.
I wonder how a half-half car would actually drive. Keep all the insides so it runs of course, but having this many differences on the exterior would be interesting to watch!
Red Bull’s uglier but looks like it has more advanced design. Also the rear axel sits back further on the red Bull kart. That’s gotta create some major handling differences.
Wow the steering arms / suspension are incredibly different
Correct, Red Bull use pull rods in the front and push rod in the rear. Ferrari use push rod in the front and pull rod in the back. In theory both performs similar, but I have read that pull rods is better for packaging (lower in the car).
pull rods are better for the car because most of the heavy parts are lower and thus the center of gravity sits lower and the car is more responsive and well balanced. On the other end push rods have most of their part sitting higher and the trade off is in the ease of setup/repair
Opposite is true for the back. Push rod allows you to package the gear box under the suspension which lowers the center of gravity.
I haven't considered that, I was mostly thinking about the front while typing my comment. Thanks for the insight
Very interesting looking into this now myself - so fun to keep finding aspects of these cars to learn about
Generally speaking. Push rod in the front makes packaging simpler and allows you to make the car lighter. Pull rod is better for center of gravity, but also heavier. The opposite is true in the back. Pull rod allows for easy packaging as you can place the gearbox over the suspension. Push rod allows you to place the gearbox lower but it's also a lot trickier to make it fit under the suspension. That's why Alfa's design is so impressive. They went for pull in front and push in back while while also managing to stay at minimum weight.
Though when high noses arrived push rods became the only option. Aero benefit was worth it.
Push rod for Ferrari vs pull rod for Red Bull
Ah yes yes I totally understand mhmm
Check out F1 YT channel from Imola, two engineers talk about it in a video with pros and cons
The rod pushes and the other rod pulls
Check out the diagonal component of the suspension setup. From the wheel to the body it goes bottom to top for Ferrari and opposite for Red Bull. So when the wheel moves up it the diagonal rod pushes in on the Ferrari whereas it pulls out for Red Bull. Both are connected to a resistance mechanism within the body.
It’s amazing how different the cars are, and yet they are trading blows for fastest from weekend to weekend. Two teams with clean sheet regs managed to come out that close to each other in performance. What a time to be a race fan.
And they look so fantastic as well. These are genuinely some of the most beautiful beasts ever in F1. The aesthetics are just fantastic.
Its crazy, both cars are incredibly different on so many aspects yet also extremely close in terms of performance
Ah yes, the Prancing Bull.
A Lamborghini, basically
Would make a pretty good tractor actually, plough through the fields real quick with those front spoilers.
[Jordan did it first.](https://scontent-atl3-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.6435-9/118615172_181991263336510_9174712684527061467_n.jpg?_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-6&_nc_sid=8bfeb9&_nc_ohc=da2zlDZNnBgAX94CP9X&_nc_ht=scontent-atl3-2.xx&oh=00_AT84CWHu6f7SjUuYAYcWmBD-DZIutJoXCgM_LuqJMuIaGg&oe=629C4557)
> Jordan did it first. Almost an uncannily-good fit, that is.
Never stuck in the gravel trap
> the Prancing Bull I mean that's basically their [DTM entry](https://files.gpblog.com/news/2021/04/08/v2_large_1ac873b29469e6d26ec80d2ef1673da1bfa5fab6.jpg)
Always feels weird to be reminded of their DTM collaboration.
It's even weirder now that they once used Ferrari engines in F1 too, but I guess in 2006 nobody was taking Red Bull seriously yet, so they could ask for any pu they wanted, as long as they paid for it.
Vettel won in a toro rosso one
that was the only win for Ferrari powered customer team so far right?
Yes.
Seb got the first win in Minardi/Toro Rosso history in 2008 and the first win in Red Bull history (not counting Herbert’s win for Stewart) in 2009. Since then Red Bull has won 76 more races, and Toro Rosso has won 1 more (as AlphaTauri with Gasly).
I completely forgot about that! And that was the season when Doornbos got to drive it too!
It’s definitely a Red Bull
You mean the Red Horse?
Ohh, [the beer?](http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0298/6531/2316/products/RedHorseStallionGroupShot_e198daf1-2530-4b27-9fcd-8eebbbe4fe0a_1200x1200.jpg)
I love how they don’t all look basically the same now
They probably will next year or in 24, all the cars are gonna probably start looking like either the ferrari or red bull
Some teams will evolve their own cars if they still see potentials. Building a new car is one thing, but understand how it works is another. That's also why teams can't copy every part from other cars, unless it works on their own car too.
>That's also why teams can't copy every part from other cars, unless it works on their own car too. Racing Point engineers disagree
Even for racing point they suffered greatly from last year due to not understanding the car they copied. The little triangle cut out in the back of the floor really fucked them much more than it fucked the W12.
The only true case of copying working out really well was tbe Williams FW07. But that was a unique case and more a testament to Patrick Head and his ability to understand how the Lotus 79 worked better than Lotus.
"Tracing Point"
Racing point copied Mercedes' 2019 car and it worked well for 2020. But with the rule changes in 2021 the lack of fully understanding the car's philosophy was probably the main reason for Aston Martin's struggles to adapt. Teams will try to do their own thing if there isn't a large difference in pace. 1 second seems a lot but not enough to scrap your not fully developed car to work on something new.
The fact that they also had a Mercedes engine might have helped.
Williams had the same engine.
Err, 1 second per lap is huge
1 second per lap? That’s an eternity. That’s being in a different class basically. I’d say it’s reason to scrap your designs. As long as you’re certain the cars at fault and not the drivers.
1 sec per lap is how you end up getting lapped
At Monaco, almost double! But at Spa you'd be less than a lap down...
They won't actually try to build a car like Ferrari. There will be right things and some wrong things and when you take what other teams are doing right and implement that is when cars start to look alike. Racing Point in 2020 was and probably will be an outlier.
Why is that? I thought in previous years teams were copying Mercedes?
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Didn’t they win 2021?
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I don’t think I’ll ever understand how two teams build two completely different cars and they end up being within a second of each other
Second? More like a tenth.
Near the end of Q3 last night it was closer to thousandths at one point
Yeah, these cars aren't Mercedes. *KAPOW!*
I own a Honda RC51 and a Ducati 999, which traded wins and championships in wsbk in the early 2000s. Both are V-twins and both built under the same regulations, and it is fascinating how entirely different they are both on the outside and when you take them apart.
Technical regulations keep things relatively similar. These are all basically different versions of the same car, they’re not 100% unique by any means.
Visually they are very different which is the point being made. Despite the technical regulations, these two examples look vastly different.
You make it sound like these brilliant designers are all just following a formula or something.
Horsepower and weight really play into it. The other stuff matters too, but for shaving time more than for setting the foundations. The cars may be different, but they stick to very similar dimensions, power, weight and tires. So unless someone finds some black magic to shave tenths, they will all perform very similar.
Black magic isn't technically illegal by FIA standards you know. Maybe there'll be a team that actually does occult shit with their car.
Ferrari will complain and black magic will be banned in 2023.
Honestly I see Horner doing that more than I do Ferrari.
Was there a time when it was anything goes? Just bring whatever you want and Race?
Engine size has always been regulated, so no. Formula basically refers to having a set of regulations.
When the bootleggers used to run from the cops lol. I think the very early days of racing there was no rules, but I honestly don’t know. I know they had requirements extremely early on in organized racing but not sure if the very begging had any or not.
It's not like they can do anything they want. They're all built within very specific parameters.
Remember when IndyCar allowed Honda and Chevrolet to develop their own aero kits for their teams on the DW12? The cars looked massively different. By the next year both sides learnt from their own and each other's mistakes and developed kits that looked completely identical. For the third year IndyCar scrapped the idea.
Same for me. Before the start of the season i was worried because i thought that the cars would look all the same. Fortunately i was wrong and the cars are really different one from another
They never did
Take the livery off last year's cars and they're much more similar
What a difference in the rear wings lol
Due to Ferrari's sidepod design their car is much more front loaded. They need a bigger rear wing to balance the tyre loads.
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very good catch
People who make these mashup photos always seem to prioritize making the ends of each car meet up visually even though they may be different sizes and width.
I thought the wheels were all the same. Are they just the same compound?
They are the same, but in the picture they are not meaning that the camera angles are different
Thank you for the clarification.
The tires and wheels are the same. They are just saying that the Ferrari image is zoomed in closer than the Red Bull image. This means the scale of the two cars doesn't match, so the sizes cannot really be compared.
I see. Thank you.
Is it also to do with airflow over the top? Those deep side pod bowls will guide the attached air much lower so the rear wing needs to go deep to scoop it up again I am not an aerodynamicist it just made sense to me this way
I actually believe the sidepods are directing more airflow to the beam wing, rather than the floor (like Red Bull) or the rear wing. Also doesn't hurt that it also helps to extract the hot air coming out of the louvers.
The area underneath the sidepods of the Red Bull is significantly larger than that of the Ferrari. This means the extraction of air through the side of the floor (basically acts like a 2nd diffuser) is further back and therefore, the aero balance of the car is further rearwards. This, along with the slimmer front wing (increases clean airflow to the floor intakes) should give them more underbody downforce but can also result in a car with a weak front end.
Yeah, that's how they should always be compared. It's so hard to see the differences when the pictures are just side by side
Front wings are also very different, more loaded on the f1-75
It's the steering assembly that seems so different to me.
Oh my god is that the legendary Formula 1 driver Charles Verstappen?
Its actually Chax Leclappen
More like Cheeks Leclappin’
Not a surprise that when you weld 2 cars together down the middle, the porpoising is pretty bad
What would be faster: mazepin or Charles leclerc surgically connected to a porpoise?
Ayooo
That’s what I assume porpoising feels like.
That's how Toto describes Mercedes early season issues off camera
Cheex Leclappen is now my official racing name.
I’m so happy for you
Thank you, Dr. Long Schlong.
Perfect
Cheeks BeClappin
Writing this down for my human f1 driver centipede story I’m writing over on r/fanf1ction
> Leclappen This sounds like something you pray you don't wake up with...
Ah, the Monegasque disease! Even worst than the French pox, though not quite as bad as the Welsh warts.
Le Clap!
Marles Verlerc
Marles Verclerc
Nah, it’s Charles Perez
Chargio Lecrez?
Is it too late for me to name my teenage son Chargio?
Of course not, just make up some story about how the whole family has to go into witness protection and he needs a new identity. Easy peasy
Ah yes and looking at the flag on the helmet he is from Monaxco
Ah, my bad.
Pretty sure that's Charles Perez
Cargo Painz
Serlos Perinz
No, it's Maximillian Leglergd
No, that’s his teammate Max Leclerc
Chuck Verstappen
Love how they're so different while the performance is so close.
Well they have different engines too. That Ferrari engine seems to be the best on the grid now.
Sorta depends on what you mean by best. Performance is probably still Max’s but literally everything else is Ferrari’s.
Absolutely has to be. Look at all that downforce it has to combat.
Is that why red bull absolutely drops the ferrari on straights?
My thoughts: (1) Different aero setups. (2) Generally better starts from Ferrari than Red Bull this year. (3) Haas and Alfa Romeo doing better than Alpha Tauri.
Ferrari is thicc at all the right places
It seems so strange that those wide side pods on the Ferrari are aerodynamically efficient, when you see them next to the Red Bull.
Well they are meant to have an edge over the bulls in slower corners whereas the bulls are faster in a straight line. Makes sense too given the lower drag on bull’s side pods vs likely better downforce generated by those bathtubs on the Ferrari.
Perhaps. I don’t have the necessary understanding of aerodynamics to make any such conclusions.
Counterintuitively the Ferrari side pods are actually less draggy than the RedBull. It’s the front loaded floor design where Ferrari get their downforce/slow speed pace from.
Two different designs can have a similar performance when it comes to aerodynamics. At least that's what I have learned from [Kyle.Engineers (ex-Mercedes engineer) on YT.](https://www.youtube.com/c/KYLEDRIVES/videos)
Definitely, It just doesn’t look very aerodynamic.
It directs air outward around the rear tires which are the draggiest part of the car, so it is efficient but indirectly so.
It also allows their engine cover area to be much smaller
Nice to see they kept Checo on as driver after the team merger, still driving the #11 car!
Both cars are absolutely beautiful! So different, but also so near each other performance level. I love this sport!
As you can see from this picture, the Ferrari is red, while the Red Bull car is blue
This is because the Ferrari is moving away from us but the Red Bull is approaching
Red Bull fucked up. Everyone knows red goes faster by design.
Found the Ork
Astute observation skills you have there.
I love how everyone feared this would become a spec series and all the cars would look the same. There's so much differenc between two very close cars
They also have a lot in common. For example: both use 4 wheels, a front and rear wing, steering wheel (and gloves probably) and they also have sidepots. Not so different after all /s
They're also both driven by humans
That's debatable tbf
Completely different cars. Most people wouldn’t be able to tell just by looking at these on Tele. Amazing pic.
Lerez!
Best of both worlds, let's do an asymmetrical design.
Build this and see how it doesn't perform? 😛
Just need F1 to start running ovals again
Say what you want but finally Ferrari made a fucking sexy car again.
Now do the Ferrari and the Mercedes… I want to see the drastic sidepod difference.
You vs. the guy she tells you not to worry about.
Oh Lewis that's just my friend Charles
Lewis: I want Ferrari sidepods! Toto: we have sidepods at home Sidepods at home: [w13.png]
The 2 best looking cars on the grid IMO. Edge goes to the Ferrari for looks.
What is this, a crossover episode?
The Ferrari is just chef kiss
That Ferrari pods reminds me to Lotus Racing's T127 one, but if you punch it from top and bend it.
It's incredible how two cars that look so different can be so equal in performance, without BOP.
Toto’s worst nightmare. Call race control immediately
The Red Bull one feels like it's at least 5 or 6 kilos lighter than the F1-75.
That's not what the journalists said. Red Bull was one of the heaviest car on the grid, not sure about now though.
Still is, they dropped three kg in Imola, but where like 10-15 kg overweight at the start of the season. 7 more kg should be dropped at Barcelona.
We might see a carbon RB18 without any paint /s
The front suspension is what caught my eye! Wow!
Silly question here, but do the cars need to be symmetrical? I'm wondering if they can make minor aerodynamic adjustments across the width of the car to better suit certain tracks that may have more left hand turns for example, or faster turns in one direction but tighter turns in the other.
In theory they could. It would depend on the circuit, and whether the advantage they gained would offset the time lost elsewhere. I know Nascar has designs heavily biased to help the left-turn-only nature of the tracks.
Its quite a lot of differences from such a prescriptive rule set, pre season lots of news outlets were telling us that we would have a grid of 20 near identical cars .
Weird car checo is driving
Holy smokes how ferrari car looks agressive
Didn't know the Ferrari beside the tire's was a wide boi
#W I D E
2 beauties!😍
Seeing this makes me appreciate their pace being so close even more.
Honestly if you tell me they were from completely different regulations i'd believe you lol
That Ferrari t h i c c
My powertrain don't want none unless you got buns hun
Are both cars actually the same length?
Remember the BAR car that had a different livery on each side?
As someone who doesn't get to watch a lot of the races, but follows F1 because you guys have some ridiculous memes, it's really nice to see the differences in design and solutions that teams come up with side by side like this.
I believe this is called sexual dimorphism.
That Ferrari is thicc
It’s crazy to me that they look like nothing alike. Like all the details that are so different but they both are running top of the grid
The Ferrari sidepods are almost as wide as the whole car.
This car either wins every race or dnfs every race
As a new fan, this has been the most eye opening picture for me. All the cars *do* look the same…when I don’t know how to look for the differences. Fascinating.
So no redbull upgrades this week and Ferrari already has them?
On the aerodynamic front Ferrari are basically still running the same car they brought to the Bahrain Test. The Red Bull has been upgraded heavily, with the last updates brought at Imola.
Pretty much all teams have brought some significant upgrade to their cars since february *but Ferrari*. Red Bull got the spec 2 sidepods in Bahrain that literally put them back on top (they were kinda meh before that), and Mercedes literally shed itself down, to mixed results. Ferrari on the other hand brought very few, circuit specific upgrades, and it's still the car to beat. Only now they have unlocked a bit more power to their P.U, which is already thought to be the best of the field. If Ferrari gets their updates right (and that's a big if - see 2018), and keeps that methodical approach they've had so far, things could be over sooner rather than later.
The package Max got at Imola its now en Perez car too
I'm still amazed how two totally different concepts turn out to be so comparable and similar when it comes to speed. Just amazing
I wonder how a half-half car would actually drive. Keep all the insides so it runs of course, but having this many differences on the exterior would be interesting to watch!
Could you do one with Mercedes? Please.
Yeah but compare them with their competition, a Haas or Alpine.
Sad but true
It appears to me they have a different aero philosophy 👍🏻
Red Bull’s uglier but looks like it has more advanced design. Also the rear axel sits back further on the red Bull kart. That’s gotta create some major handling differences.