T O P
Noiz2144

>Ferrari has urged to FIA to ensure that Formula 1’s budget cap is properly policed this year to prevent teams finding ways around the system for game changing upgrades.


Snappy0

Says the team totally not having conversations with Haas over what they’ve found in the wind tunnel and CFD.


Ashbones15

And yet funny that AT and RB share the exact same concept of the sidepods. There are no other cars that are as similar as those 2


ashyjay

It's pretty much commonly accepted that AT is all the slightly less good bits from RB, as like hell would they be allow Faenza to directly compete with them.


seahoodie

Which is why we need to get my man Pierre OUTTA there. He deserves a truly competitive car


Lionh34rt

Pierre needs to keep his head down at AT and show his skills and hopefully something opens up at Merc or McLaren soon...


seahoodie

To that point, if I had money, I would put it on either Lewis retiring bc of no longer being competitive or Daniel getting dropped for continuing to get outperformed by Lando. One of the two.


Eddiexx

I don’t think anyone would want to race in McPain at the moment.


seahoodie

A lot of drivers would be happy to drive for any team just to drive in F1. Mick Schumacher won the F2 Championship and then joined Haas knowing they were THE backmarker. There are thousands of people who would kill for ANY seat, let alone one on one of the most legendary teams in the sport that just happens to be hitting a bad run


eatawholebison

If McLaren improves and Daniel doesn’t then Pierre could look like an interesting move


SSJZoli

As much as I love Danny Ric as a person and a driver I just don’t think it’s a good fit for him


seahoodie

I think he's past this prime


No_Detective_1139

I don't know if he'd want to go to Mclaren right now


SSJZoli

Gasly and Norris in a decent car ooo eeee


Ts_Patriarca

I am once again reminding F1 fans that the 2019 season happened


seahoodie

He wasn't prepared for it then, but the setback made him work harder than ever and he's come a long way. He deserves a 2nd chance. One the RBR will never give him


zr0th

What team do you think he has a chance of going to that would be an upward trajectory? Honest question.


ashyjay

I want him in a good car he deserves better, I’m also conflicted as I wouldn’t want him as a rival for Max, even though he looks to be the best choice to replace Lewis atm.


Challenge_Tough

Pfft, rival. As good as Pierre is, Max would destroy Pierre even after all the progress he made


seahoodie

I could see him being more a #2 to Russell


Snappy0

Oh don’t get me wrong. They’re all at it apart from perhaps Alpine and maybe Williams.


Codydw12

Alpine don't exact have anyone to share with


Levo117

What are you saying, we have always been a team famous for integrity…


DeltaBlitz

My favorite Renault story is when they stole the J-damper idea from Mclaren after spygate and the FIA didn't even fine them because they couldn't figure out to make it work. Just peak renault


seahoodie

I've been low-key hoping after the suffering all the Mercedes run cars are having this year that maybe one of their customers decides to become a Renault customer


Snappy0

Sure. At best they could perhaps game the system by having Renault in France add something to their other developments to gain extra time. I doubt it though.


Codydw12

They might just grab the prospective Andretti team to work with. But I don't exactly have faith in them to get even that right.


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Tyr64

Didn’t they already announce that’s who they’ve chosen for their engines?


stillusesAOL

You bet!


snoring_pig

McLaren seems fairly independent too since Seidl brought up his concerns over some B teams copying too much from the works team which would hurt independent teams like themselves. I’d even add Alfa Romeo as they’re taking steps to be more independent from Ferrari by designing their gearbox even if it might be hurting their race starts


AceMKV

Alfa don't have links with Ferrari anymore apart from being a customer team. Haas and AT are the two teams everyone will look closely at.


omg_im_redditor

I was going to write that Alfa and Ferrari are parts of Fiat, but apparently it's not true anymore: Ferrari is independent since 2016. TIL


AceMKV

Alfa is owned by Stellantis now afaik and the F1 team is essentially Sauber with Alfa as the title sponsor. Also, just checked, a large part of Ferrari is owned by a holding company based in the Netherlands lol.


Dark_shadow15

Yeah, Exor the Holding company of the Agnelli Family is the biggest shareholder of Ferrari and Stellantis. That's why John Elkann is the Chairman of both Ferrari and Stellantis.


Serinanda

It's exor which is Agnellis families company. They just moved around their assets. Although Ferrari family still owns around 15% while Exor owns 20% and the rwdt is public.


omg_im_redditor

> Stellantis I've read it like Stellaris - the game, lol


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snoring_pig

Ah thanks for clarifying I thought I heard the commentators mention Alfa switched to their own gearbox


Adi347

My bad, you are completely right. Not sure where I thought I read that they only used the casing!


tankplanker

Who are Merc sharing development with?


dimaxi6

Williams and AM


tankplanker

Which bits other than PU related are they sharing? As they seem to have quite different aero philosophy, for example AM is closer to Ferrari with its long side pods than the zero sized pods on the Merc


QuiksLE

Merc can learn what NOT to do from AM.


tankplanker

I think that they learned that already, as they seem to be doing most things differently


dimaxi6

The italian sky crew told that they have an agreement to share the wind tunnel data and other things, like ferrari&haas and a bit sauber i think, red bull&alphatauri. Soo the only team who plays fairly is Renault


tankplanker

How's that work when the cars have a very different aero philosophy?


dimaxi6

I think just the data is enough, so they know what work and what don't.


thounotouchthyself

Mclaren nor Mercedes-Benz have anyone to share with. So it appears the front runners are gaining from having sister teams.


neverspeakofme

There is absolutely no way Mercedes doesn't get data from AM and Williams and likely also Mclaren. The customer teams benefit greatly from feedback given about the shared engine and the shared need to build a chassis around that same engine, and Mercedes benefits from their input. Engine data and aero data is not the same but is still highly relevant, since the structure of the car is meant to bring out the best of the engine. The one team that is properly alone is Alpine.


thounotouchthyself

We are talking about wind tunnel here.


neverspeakofme

My point is about wind tunnel data. The chassis design is inseparable from the engine design. Horner made that pretty clear in his little feud with Renault.


KeenanJF

And mclaren with honda.


f1_spelt_as_bot

M**c**Laren


Snappy0

Sort of. Merc and Aston share the same wind tunnel for now until Aston has their own up and running. Although admittedly their concepts are very opposite it appears.


Germshroom

I mean part of it is going to be packaging. They are the only two with RBPT(Honda) engine.


big_cock_lach

Compared to Haas, Sauber and Ferrari? They’re all guilty, Red Bull’s sidepods are just as much of a development of AlphaTauri’s as Ferrari’s is of Haas’ and Sauber’s. It seems only Alpine is completely guilt free, and given the way McLaren is bringing it up and determined not to go that route I’d give them benefit of the doubt. Im interested to see how the Aston develops tho.


Ashbones15

What. The Sauber is nothing like the Ferrari. The Haas has it's similarities yes.


Moudy90

Doesn't Haas buy every part legally possible from Ferrari to help keep their costs down?


Ashbones15

Yes they do. Them and AT are true costumer teams


thspimpolds

Don’t forget, Ferrari let part of their staff move to Haas. Even if they don’t share any data (per the rules) they still came from the Ferrari way of thinking… I wouldn’t expect anything radically different


No_Seaweed285

If you’re putting Sauber in that group, then you clearly have no idea what you’re talking about.


[deleted]

In a potential fight between Ferrari and Red Bull you’re really going to suggest that Ferrari is the team that benefits most from having ties with other teams?


Snappy0

I didn’t say anything of the sort. It’s widely accepted there is likely a lot of open conversations as it were between RB and AT. Proving it is harder of course. But I doubt the fence separating Ferrari and Haas is a steel fortress. Both are probably on level footing in terms of the extra boost they could gain from effectively a junior team.


Tough-Relationship-4

And I’m sure Resta has had no input at Ferarri over design.


f1_spelt_as_bot

Fe**rr**a**r**i


GopSome

We are lucky we have Ferrari in the sport, if we didn’t we would never find out this type of issues. It’s not like Mercedes literally passed their car to a competitor or Red Bull has been running two different teams for a decade.


thspimpolds

Well when they get in trouble at least we will know why…. Oh wait


Somewhere_Direct

Ehm that's some revisionist view, doesn't Ferrari have Haas this year


GopSome

So when Mercedes and Red Bull factually do it it's fine but when someone expresses doubts over what is at this point just a conspiracy it's revisionist? Like don't get me wrong, I'm not in favour whatsoever but its definitely funny how some people turn it on Ferrari every time.


funky_bandersnatch

How did Merc "pass their car to a competitor"? I hope you're not talking about the racing point?   Edit: for the people that want to downvote me: Here's a quote from [the Irish times](https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/racing-point-punished-for-illegally-copying-2019-mercedes-car-1.4324670): > The FIA ruling concluded the rear brake ducts were “designed in large part by Mercedes”. Mercedes had admitted they supplied information on their 2019 brake ducts because at the time they were not listed parts. However, a subsequent rule change for 2020 meant brake ducts were required to be designed from scratch. Ok so Racing Point copied a "listed part" from information they were supplied by Merc in 2019. Key point: when Merc supplied that information, it was perfectly legal to do so. Do you have any sources to disprove what I quoted, or to prove that Merc actually broke a rule to assist Racing Point?


BambooShanks

>I hope you're not talking about the ~~racing point~~? Tracing point


GopSome

It's exactly what I'm talking about. We can play dumb and pretend nothing happened if you want though.


funky_bandersnatch

I never heard of anything that Merc did to pass the car to them... What I remember was that Racing Point used 3D cameras to scan and then make an exact copy of the 2019 Merc. It's a relatively straightforward process and doesn't require Mercs' involvement. Do you have a source indicating that Merc assisted them with the process? Merc did provide them the engine, gearbox and whatever else it was that engine constructors typically provide, but nowhere close to what you're saying which is that Merc cheated to help Racing Point. Unless you have some evidence, I'm just going to say you're a conspiracy theorist, and you're trying to paint Merc in a bad light because you want to protect Ferrari.


GopSome

Racing point was literally penalised for copying parts that weren't visible with a camera. Again dude let's play dumb if you want but it's funny how we are saying that Ferrari definitely colluded with Haas but in the case of Merc and Racing point when there is evidence I'm trying to paint them in a bad light.


eggplantsforall

Pasting this comment I made before, because I am sick of people constantly claiming this bullshit about RP: Their penalty was because in 2019 they purchased (legally) the Mercedes front and rear brake duct designs. However, they only ran the front ones during the 2019 season. In 2020, it was no longer allowed to purchase those parts from another team, as brake ducts became listed parts in 2020. Because RP had actually run the front ducts on their car in 2019, they rightfully argued that the 2020 ducts were an "internally designed evolution" of the 2019 ducts they bought from Mercedes. But because they never ran the 2019 rear ducts on their car in 2019, FIA did not consider those to be an internally designed part when they ran them (or slightly evolved versions of them) in 2020. They didn't need to see the rear brake design with a camera because **they legally purchased the design in 2019.** This issue of carrying over non-listed parts to listed parts had never really come up before, as the reclassification of brake ducts to become listed parts in 2020 created this odd backdoor for parts purchased legally in the previous season. RP was technically guilty according to how FIA interpreted the regs, but I think the interpretation could have gone either way - as the FIA did in fact rule the other way for the front brake ducts. I think the penalty was harsh. They legally bought the designs for the brake ducts in 2019. I think they legitimately believed they had the right to run those designs or variations thereof in 2020. They just couldn't buy the 2020 brake duct designs from anyone. You have absolutely no source or evidence that Merc was in any way complicit with illegally providing RP with designs. You just don't. Talking out your goddamn ass.


LogicalDrinks

They were penalised for using brake duct designs that they legally bought from Merc the previous year. They were penalised over a technicality because they didn't use them the previous year before they became a listed part. If they had used them before, like their other brake ducts from Merc, then nothing would have happened.


funky_bandersnatch

No worries I'm pretty sure I found the "not visible with a camera" thing you're talking about.   Here's a quote from [the Irish times](https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-sports/racing-point-punished-for-illegally-copying-2019-mercedes-car-1.4324670): > The FIA ruling concluded the rear brake ducts were “designed in large part by Mercedes”. Mercedes had admitted they supplied information on their 2019 brake ducts because at the time they were not listed parts. However, a subsequent rule change for 2020 meant brake ducts were required to be designed from scratch. Ok so Racing Point copied a "listed part" from information they were supplied by Merc in 2019. Key point: when Merc supplied that information, it was perfectly legal to do so. Do you have any sources to disprove what I quoted, or to prove that Merc actually broke a rule to assist Racing Point?


funky_bandersnatch

Why do you keep saying "play dumb if you want". I'm not playing dumb, I'm asking you for a source. If some other person says "Ferrari has an illegal floor" do you expect me just to believe that person without evidence? If you don't want to provide any proof you're free to tell me "look it up yourself" but stop saying I'm playing dumb just because I don't immediately believe everything someone says when that person isn't showing proof.


BigMangalhit

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/articles/single-seaters/f1/what-racing-point-did-wrong-brake-duct-penalty-explained Just because you didn't hear doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A really easy Google search has dozens of articles about it. There was even ruling decisions on this. Weird you haven't heard about it judging by your confidence. Now I want to see you apply the same standards you demand of others to your claims that the Haas and Ferrari team are sharing info please. Any source to your claim?


funky_bandersnatch

> Now I want to see you apply the same standards you demand of others to your claims that the Haas and Ferrari team are sharing info please. Any source to your claim? Lollll, I never made that claim brother. Put it back in your pants.


Somewhere_Direct

Where did I bring about RB and Merc into this? How is it lucky when Ferrari literally has had a B team - Alfa and then now Haas


GopSome

>Where did I bring about RB and Merc into this? You did when you answered my comment and called me revisionist. >How is it lucky when Ferrari literally has had a B team - Alfa and then now Haas Being an engine supplier now is having B teams? Like I can understand the argument for Haas given that they literally exchanged personnel but what does Alfa have to do here?


Somewhere_Direct

It is revisionist of you to say Ferrari doesn't have a B team. I never said other teams don't have one. Wasn't Gio Ferrari's reserve driver placed into an Alfa seat? He is still their sim driver. If you can call Williams a B team for Merc because of Russell, I'm not sure how you can overlook this


GopSome

I don't consider Williams Merc's B team in the slightest. As for Ferrari I'm not being revisionist, I'm saying that is funny that people turn this on Ferrari because of Haas but not for RB with Alpha Tauri or Merc with Aston. I think they all should be checked but its still funny to see finger pointing form RB or Merc fans.


Somewhere_Direct

You said in your original comment that it is lucky Ferrari is in F1 to point out this issue, when the paddock has been complaining about Haas' similarities to the F-75


BigMangalhit

What about when toto Wolff still owned part of Williams while being mercedes team principal?


Somewhere_Direct

Where did I bring Mercedes into this, why the whataboutism. The discussion with the initial commenter is that Ferrari is the paragon where not having B teams is considered.


Dahnhilla

Literally?


Somewhere_Direct

You would prefer figuratively?


BigMangalhit

Arguably


marahute85

Ferrari does not, Ferrari had to let go a bunch of staff because of cost cap that moved over to Haas, and they developed an incredible car, and they’ve got a Ferrari junior academy member in a seat but they are a full on junior team


XsStreamMonsterX

This is so they know exactly how much they can share without being called out for doing something "illegal."


ajr901

Now that they appear to be on top they’re like “ok let’s make sure we keep things the way they are!!!” I get it tho. Fair play


stay_fr0sty

I’m winning the vote! Stop the count!


Sm0g3R

Good move actually. I'm sure Mercedes is all over that rulebook now them being on the wrong foot.


SecuredStealth

Hahaha so hypocrital of them considering the 2019 cover up


[deleted]

I was scared this would happen when this rule was introduced. I really hope it doesn't become a battle of creative accounting. I am dreading the day the post race analysis has a suit from the top 4 explaining what an SPV is. The accusations of cheating are going to be arduous and rife.


k2_jackal

That’s aimed at the other teams run by auto manufacturers that could potentially hide development work within other divisions of the company.


oaklandriot

This is the correct answer.


Correct_Answer

okay


giudasvelto

Good... mmm bot?


Correct_Answer

nah, just got lucky with username available.


Snule

This is the correct answer.


touch26

okay


XsStreamMonsterX

You mean they're the correct answer.


pistonfire

Christian Horner raised similar concerns when the cost cap was first announced. Ferrari keeps all their budgets in one portfolio and Horner stated it will be extremely difficult to paint a clear picture of how much the team is spending in Formula 1


Alexlam24

Mercedes could very easily use the AMG One as a test bench for 2022/23 power unit development too


No_Seaweed285

Power unit dev isn’t under the cost cap so it doesn’t matter.


KazranSardick

Not really disagreeing with you, but I do feel like it should be pointed out that Ferrari is an auto manufacturer, albeit low volume, but they focus exclusively on very high performance cars. I'd assume the wall between the F1 team, the other racing development programs, and their road cars is "porous," just like I assume it is for the others.


karreerose

Yeah but Mercedes for example is so huge. My company is making about 15 mil eur per year revenue with software services to mercedes, they could easily hide like 5 mil herr. And that’s just one contractor among thousands.


itsrj158

Is your company a minor contractor or a major global IT partner for the entire parent company?


karreerose

A minor contractor that is not even on the TOP 100 IT Firms in Austria. You wouldn't know our software - especially since most of our services are custom made business solutions.


itsrj158

Are you supplying to mainly the commercial business or for the Formula 1 team? I've also been super intrigued with how regular businesses and F1 teams use a multitude of diff. software's for different purposes.


karreerose

We only interact with MB Commercial, absolutely nothing with F1. I just wanted to point out that there are so many ways of diluding money.


Sarcastic_Pedant

Thanks for the insight


scammersarecunts

DCCS?


LincolnshireSausage

Didn't Ferrari slap their F1 hybrid engine in a La Ferrari to test it in 2013?


WoodyWoodsta

Anything with the word “slap” in it is an immediate trigger for me at the moment.


marahute85

Chris Rock are you doing okay?


LegendRazgriz

Not afaik (the LaFerrari has a V12), although the data from the FXX-K program was definitely taken into account when developing the hybrid system later in the turbo hybrid regulations.


LincolnshireSausage

Here’s the post from 2013 https://reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/1rp6dr/rumorferrari_testing_16l_v6_for_f1_in_laferrari/


LegendRazgriz

Oh, as a mule, then yeah.


KazranSardick

Can't even think of something sarcastic today, which is strange for me. Just odd to think of a LaFerrari as a test mule, but when you are testing an F1 engine you've got to have a pretty special mule.


Tough-Relationship-4

Ok and? Massive corporation has more resources than boutique manufacturer. Not really a surprise. Red Bull isn’t an auto manufacturer and seem to do just fine on the design, aero front. Of course their PU is designed by a mega corp but that’s not the total package.


LegendRazgriz

They're talking about Mercedes and (to a lesser degree) Alpine. It would be extremely easy for those to circumvent the cost cap by outsourcing bits to other divisions in the conglomerate in a way that's not detectable. Ferrari themselves are fully capable of this, considering they have loose tethers to the Fiat/Chrysler/Peugeot supertitan that Elkann is also CEO of, but they have gone so far as to start up a Le Mans Hypercar project to accomodate all the people at the factory that needed to be trimmed down to fit under the budget cap.


marahute85

Mercedes racing and Mercedes the car manufacturers are completely separate entities as far as I know


Serinanda

I don't think it's possible anymore. Ferrari is technically indépendant today. Stellantis owns Alfa, peugot opel, etc but they are under a different umbrella so to say. Not sure shareholder's of Stellantis would be happy helping ferrari anymore.


Moondust0

What happens if a team is caught spending over the cost cap?


TheMaverick13589

Just like technical infringements, there are sporting penalties that go from reprimands, to fines and reduction of WCC/WDC points, to reduction of the Cost Cap or exclusion from the Championship. Depends on why and by how much they passed the limit. From page 24 if you are interested: https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/formula_1_-_financial_regulations_-_iss_9_-_2022-02-18.pdf


themistermango

It should be treated like the NFL salary cap. There is no going over. You can’t play if you’re over the cap. Put on a part that puts you over the cap? Take it off or don’t race.


Samuel7899

Haha. The NFL spending cap is probably not a good example of "there is no going over".


DrVonD

There are a few teams (looking at NO specifically) that have been treating the cap like it’s imaginary for the last few years and literally nothing has happened.


Isolat_or

No, you just don’t understand the NFL cap. Teams do not ignore it, do you really some general managers just cannot figure out how to restructure and change contracts like others? Please don’t start this nonsense.


egg_mugg23

that's not true, they've just been lucky to have players that are willing to restructure. it'll hit them eventually


MilesDaMonster

Wouldn’t of Red Bull been out of engines if that was the case last year?


ShamrockStudios

Engines aren't included in the cap


MilesDaMonster

Good to know 👌


jamminjoenapo

This still makes no sense to me. Add a cost that hits cap space regardless of the actual cost to a team, eg works teams take the same hit as customer teams. And let them make the decision on how many engines they want to blow through in the season without penalty. The cost cap is a good start but there’s things like this I don’t feel they looked into enough to allow more diversity in how the teams use the cost cap. I just don’t want to see Merc going through 6+ engines because they can take the 5 place penalty and just replace the engine later where other teams are struggling just to get to the cap.


gudakesha

Or Mercedes?


Playful-Dragonfruit8

Then "or else" happens


_kossak_

So, a 5 sec penalty?


i_am_the_punisher

Toto happens


burner5287

No pumpernickel for them


HufflepuffEdwards

Don't go over budget or the headset gets it!


i9srpeg

The start of Formula Accounting.


drop_table_uname

We pay our accountant 40 million €, but he's worth it, he got our two main rivals disqualified last year. Thank god accountants aren't included in the cost cap.


ancientemblem

Just pay your engineers 10% less and pay a driver more, then the drivers gift the engineers a Richard Mille or Rolex to make up the difference as driver salaries aren't counted in the cap.


CharcasticC

You: \* HAHA funny witty comment \* team bosses reading this : Holy fuckin SHIT !!!


gcracks96

5Head plays out here. Whole team garages gonna be iced out here pretty soon


ThatWolf

Audit to Survive premiers when?


CrowbarDepot

Begun, the accounting wars have.


jcfac

> Begun, the accounting wars have. Finally... my number has been called and I'm ready to serve.


bro_bro_ch

I feel like the cap should be adjusted for inflation. Especially with the sharp increase in costs around the world since covid and the Ukraine invasion, supply chain issues, etc


Coops27

It's actually 2 separate issues. Logistics and Personnel Travel & Accommodation is exempt from the cost cap, but that money is still a required payment for all teams. So that rise in travel costs means that the smaller teams won't be able to spend as much on developing their car. I agree that inflation needs to be considered, however if you also give the big teams extra cap space that's a double advantage for them right when F1 is trying to level the playing field.


bosoneando

The cost cap includes an indexation > in respect of the Full Year Reporting Periods ending on 31 December 2022 and 31 December 2023, the higher of zero and the amount by which the average annual inflation rate as published on the International Monetary Fund website for the G7 countries for September of the preceding Full Year Reporting Period exceeds 3.0%


flip217

What exactly are the penalties for exceeding the cap?


gfkxchy

I'd laugh if it was just a fine.


flip217

I just found [this](https://racingnews365.com/how-f1s-budget-cap-could-shake-up-the-pecking-order) article which is a bit vague about penalties but says “…These range from reprimands through monetary fines, time penalties and race suspensions to exclusion from the championship, with nominated executive(s) potentially in line for bans.” Hmmmm…..


siav8

Someone has to fuck around and find out.


stay_fr0sty

I think that’s what it is in baseball. You can go over but you pay like 1/3rd the amount you go over as a fine I think.


it_diedinhermouth

Does red bull have double the cost cap having two teams?


itsrj158

no. for legal and sporting purposes they are 'independent' there should be oversight of what they share with each other tho, its ridiculous to think that RB could technically double its R&D budget and just pass down a cheaper and lower performance version of their car down to AT to race with


it_diedinhermouth

Somebody at the top of red bull has knowledge of what all four cars are made of.


itsrj158

Not really, contrary to popular belief RBR doesn't operate AT. It's just all owned by the RB energy drink company. In reality, Christian doesn't need to oversee AT's performance or what they're doing. He or his top engineers are not involved in running the team and vice versa for AT. I would garner that the parent company (energy drinks one) would be privy to all knowledge but there's nothing that they would really care about because they're not engineers or technicians - they're corporate executives. However, that's from a face value perspective of what the partnership that they claim they have should look like. I believe its nowhere near as uninvolved as I have stated. I think that the personnel in both teams (while located in different factories and even countries) are very open in discussions with their chosen design philosophy if not super specific discussions, and even run technical and testing programmes together to share data - which I think is wrong even for Ferrari and Mercedes with their customer teams and definitely needs oversight


AgeOfReverence

Each individual team has their own cost cap, yes.


Altacco16

It's extremely strange that an F1 team is allowed to participate under two names.


TimedogGAF

Every team that can get away with cheating is doing so. I just assume Ferrari is cheating, and so are Red Bull and Mercedes.


[deleted]

Well, for one the cost cap needs to be adjusted for inflation every year.. fuck.... it should be adjusted for inflation every month.


_Forsen

Surprised Mercedes just doesnt want to buy off some team, then use them as their sister team so they can share some knowledge and get helped in the race if needed, and then later sell it to someone else as there should be people interested in joining F1.


[deleted]

Now only if the Mercedes customer teams weren't all backmarkers.


qp0n

I think the penalties of getting caught subverting the cost cap need to be severe. Like a 1 year ban for an offense.


itsrj158

That's too harsh and not good for the sport as well. If its a little bit I imagine there's a financial and minor sporting penalty (constructors points). If its in the tens of millions, then there's a problem and they'll probably get disqualified from that years championship standings or lose a portion of the prize money at the end of the year


qp0n

It has to be harsh to be a deterrent because policing it is so difficult. A deterrent encourages self policing.


itsrj158

Right but if a team goes 1-2 million over the budget because of repair damages from other cars hitting each other (a popular discussion with Hamilton and Verstappen at Silverstone), should they really be DQ'd for an entire year? That will literally put hundreds of livelihoods at risk because if the team can't earn money for a whole year, best believe its going to leave the sport and its employees without jobs - not to mention that in the long run such an authoritarian approach to policing will deter new teams from entering if they can face such large financial loss over a year for a minor violation


qijl

There should be a proportionate scale but absolutely at one end the penalties need to include a ban and/or disqualification. The cost cap is part of the rules now and breaking it is cheating. If at the end of the season the FIA just shrugs and says "wouldn't want to disrupt the title race" then why even bother having a cap at all? Clearly there's a big difference between unforeseen repair costs (though teams ought to budget for this) and actively circumventing the cap through hidden spending, but fundamentally they're both against the rules and it's important those rules are policed if the cap is to do what's desired - which includes making F1 more attractive to potential new teams.


ConnotationalKappa

What??? How the fuck is cheating around cost cap good for the sport when other teams are maybe trying to follow the rules? Do you also think that athletes who dope don't deserve a ban because it harms the sport?


dvwinn

At the least any amount spent over the cost cap should then be deducted from the next year, to try and even out the transgression


Akash10201

You think ferrari can ever be banned from F1? Ferrari is F1! There is no F1 without ferrari.


Diegobyte

I think a spending floor an a luxury tax would have worked better than a cost cap


DCNY214

Says the team seemingly with the most competitive package thus far. If Ferrari were languishing in 3rd or 5th place, they would be pleading to raise the cost cap.


SwimminginMercury

Totally not projecting; because we all know Ferrari is nothing if not judicious with their money and following rules


LumberghFactor

Of course I know him, he’s me!


Wh1sk3yt4ng0f0xtr0t

Im sure burning off a bit of extra oil won't have much of an effect on the team budgets...


stillusesAOL

Huh…?


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zberry7

Actually it was about fuel flow rates, the oil burning saga was something separate. There’s a couple credible theories I’ve heard, not sure if any are substantiated yet. But they all revolve around gaming the fuel flow sensor to allow short bursts of extra power. One idea was using electromagnetic interference to trick the sensor, another was to pump extra fuel in between the cycles where the fuel flow was measured, and a third was to have long and flexible fuel lines (after the sensor) to basically fill and stretch with excess fuel during off-throttle, then using it during full-throttle. Oil burning was being done by all engine manufacturers, especially Ferrari and Mercedes. The idea was a leaky turbo seal to allow flammable oil into the charged air. But again that was something separate and the FIA clamped down on it publicly.