[WEC] The pole position of the centenary Le Mans 24h goes to...

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That was no cheapie. Fuoco had traffic and still broke the 3:22 barrier. The 499P is showing itself to be very worthy of the legacy of the P Series. What a monster of a car, amazing drives by Fuoco and Pier Guidi. Now it's to see if they can keep it up for 24 hours.


Never watched Le Mans before other than the movie *Ford vs Ferrari*. How much importance does the pole position carry into the 24 hour race? In F1 for example pole is crucial, especially in street circuits like Monaco where passing is essentially impossible and with just 1-2 hours of race time. But I’d imagine a 24 hour race could really dilute the importance of the pole.


It's important in that it keeps you as far away from start craziness as possible, and it's also a solid sign of one-lap pace. But it's nothing like as critical as it is in the comparatively short races F-1 runs.




It does happen. Last year a prototype’s race was ended within the first 10 seconds as he was sandwiched between 2 other cars at the start. They were middle of the pack and race o ver before turn 1.


Tell that to Lotterer when he shunted the Rebellion right up the ass of one of the Toyotas in 2018 going into the first corner.


The best part of watching Le Mans in the US is you get to hear the commentators early in the morning when it's prime time. I think it was 2017 or so when they got into a twenty minute debate about chicken and waffles. Twenty minutes!


Does LeMans still do the whole "running up to your car, starting the engine and off you go!" deal?


That stopped in the '70s, IIRC.


In fact, there have been more rolling starts at Le Mans than there have been Le Mans starts.


They stoped when jacky icks casually strolled to his car buckeled himself up and drove off to win the race in protest of the danger of driving off unbuckeled which lots of drivers did back then...


> Never watched Le Mans before other than the movie Ford vs Ferrari. How much importance does the pole position carry into the 24 hour race? > > Most important part is that you don't get fucked from whatever insanity happens further down the grid


You would think professional drivers know that a 24-hours race is not won in the first lap, but I guess racing is racing...


While the race is not won on the first lap, it can certainly be lost.


Go home, Buxton. You're drunk and monologuing again.


If you cross the finish line first you win, this sport is about winning


When that chequered flag drops, and you're in second, ever driver knows what that means. Their chance at winning has been taken away from them.


I was bangin seven gram rocks and finishing them because that's how I roll I'm bi-winning - win here, win there, win win everywhere


Oh come now is this not actually a decent applicable saying about patience rather than if you start on pole it means you were quicker than everyone else.


When you cross your house's door... *(dramatic pause)* You are home \- Will Buxton, Drive to Survive season 6


>24-hours race is not won in the first lap some cant even wait for the first lap to end, its not unusual to see dumb stuff from professional drivers on the first few corners of a giant circuit of a 24hr race


Well sometimes it can be won on the first couple of laps. Like in 2021 when Kevin Estre went on an insane rush from p11 to p1 in the first couple of laps of the 24hrs of Nurburing, which his team went on to win. It's risky, but getting through the pack while cars are still fairly close definitely loses you less time. [Here's the video of his first couple of laps, insane performance considering how much race there was left to run.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l49Ehl4Eq6I&t=0s)


wow what a drive, amazing overtaking I'm so used to see Ducati power and DRS overtake, this is on another level I'm on edge of my seat the whole time watching while eating breakfast, lol thanks for sharing this


He’s driving one of the Porsches 963s at Le Mans too! Should be fun to watch…


Good news, Estre did it again at the N24 last month.


Stuff just happens when you have 62 cars all going into turn 1 in a five second window.


Watch the Kevin Estre Nurburgring 24 start. These guys are 9.5/10 despite races being 24 fucking hours.


Professional drivers like Michael Fassbender


Well I mean Fassbender has been in competitions since 2016, now 7 years of experience including multiple Le Mans events including a couple of podiums, not to mention prior experience racing the 24hr last year. Seems pretty professional to me


Like a rich guy that starts late can still end up being an incredibly competent driver amongst people racing pro since their early 20s. As you said, his track record kinda shows that he is at the very least competent.


I can't remember a gentleman driver taking the start stint in recent times.


I'm not an expert, but I have to believe teams don't let their bronze drivers take the first stint.


Pole - depending on by how much - can be ominous for the 24 hours. That's because Le Mans is a race about losing the least speed and time as your cars wear out. By the time you get to the final hours the cars can look quite different to their shiny pristine versions at the start. If a car has higher latent pace then it stands to reason that as the day goes on it will be able to maintain a pace higher than others. However, what qualifying does not reveal is durability. In the 2016 Le Mans 24 hours the No. 5 Toyota started the final lap of the event which it had dominated and led from the start - and then the car suddenly died. After conquering almost the entire 24 hours Toyota had fallen with only minutes left to go. Ed: Someone mentioned that there are times when teams design their Le Mans strategy to win by efficiency rather than speed. This results in unusual hare-versus-tortoise strategic battles which have also happened before.


For Christ sake I had erased that pain from my mind.




> In the 2016 Le Mans 24 hours the No. 5 Toyota started the final lap of the event which it had dominated and led from the start - and then the car suddenly died. *hello darkness my old friend* 2016 felt like Toyota's chance to break their bad luck curse AND beating the established competition of Audi and Porsche who had previously dominated Le Mans (and doing so with a 50 second gap) and then the Radio message came on the TV 5 minutes before the finish *"I GOT NO POWER"*


Better qualy pace does not mean that you have the best package, Audi was slower than Peugeot in 2010 and 2011 but they managed to win due to better strategy and fuel economy. Hopefully AF Corse manages to do a great job.


> Audi was slower than Peugeot in 2010 and 2011 but they managed to win due tot better strategy and fuel economy The R18 TDI was a cheat code for the few years it ran. Didn't have the outright pace of the Peugeots, but Audi's diesel engines were so dramatically more fuel-efficient than their petrol competitors that even after the ACO slowed down the pit stop refueling rate to be *slower than a regular civilian pump*, it still wasn't enough. AFAIK when extrapolated for 24 hours the Audis had to make two pit stops less than every other LMP1. Almost an extra lap per stint.


Peugeot also had diesel engines.


I think your mixing up years before the only year the R18 raced Peugeot, Peugeot were actually the ones slower, but more fuel efficient.


Peugeot had a far superior car in 2010, but they changed parts from 2009 to 2010 that ultimately failed during the race. They all DNF, so Audi didn’t really have to race them to win 2010. And in 2011, it was the opposite, Audi had the faster car and ran faster while using more fuel. Peugeot were saving enough fuel to complete one more lap than Audi each stint.


Yes. But in the TRUTH IN 24 documentary I believe in the build up to their battle Audi had known that Peugeot had an advantage in performance so they had to work around it. I also don't recall if this was the one where 2010 or 2011 was when Villeneuve crashed during the night stint in his Peugeot, in a duel with Tom Kristensen that effectively handed the advantage to Audi in what was a hare-versus-tortoise battle.


AF Corse have great endurance pedigree so I hope they can perform up to their usual level.


2010 was mostly Peugeot breaking down on their own, 4 retirements out of 4 cars.


> Someone mentioned that there are times when teams design their Le Mans strategy to win by efficiency rather than speed. IIRC this is how the legendary Mazda 787B won its race, it was just a tad more reliable than the faster cars it was facing so it became the only non-piston driven engine that has won the LM24.


Yes. I also may be mistaken but that is also I think how the McLaren F1 GTR posted an overall Le Mans victory. The prototypes had weakened to the point that the F1 GTR actually posted an overall victory in 1995. I think this might be the last example of a Non-Prototype scoring the overall Le Mans win.


Real answer is that, at least for LMP1/Hypercar (the top class), its importance is just for headlines and marketing, it has little relevance to race result. Good team managers even usually instruct their drivers not to push hard for pole. Of course that's always at odds with the manufacturers' executives, who want pole for all the Saturday shots of the start of the race. For reference, pole/win conversion rate since 2000 (birth of the modern Prototype era) is 8 out of 23 years, but with arguably 5 or 6 of the 8 being in years where only one team was expected to dominate so the race was just an intra-team battle (Toyota in 2018-21-22, Audi in 2012 +/- 2013, Bentley in 2003), and with one of the 8 being that infamous 2016 year where a Toyota that dominated the race (but that wasn't in pole) broke down with 1 lap to go and thus the pole car (Porsche) inherited the win.


>Never watched Le Mans before other than the movie > >Ford vs Ferrari > >. It's not a very good Le Mans film. Steve McQueen's *Le Mans* from 1971, on the other hand, is probably the best racing movie ever made.


Better than Days of Thunder? Lol


haha just.


It's basically just for the show. It's good to be ar the front because it means that you might be away from the initial problems, but other than that it's not relevante.


Pier Guidi is an endurance beast! I’ll be cheering for him.


I'm not up to date with the current WEC regs, do they still use BOP to artifically make the cars have the same pace?


Yes they still use BOP, it was recently changed for 2023 24h Le Mans


Quite crazy to return there after 50 years and clinch a 1-2 in quali! Still a long long long way to go of course but it would be so cool to see them winning the whole thing. A pity that the F1 department is not as good lol!


Td39 absolutely destroyed their bath tub concept. Only in the last Spanish gp that the team decided to adopt the red bull design. It will be a long year undoubtedly.


Well the F1 department doesn’t benefit from their main rival getting boped


Ferrari got boped too, second biggest weight increase and lowest power output.


Second-biggest weight increase, but Toyota's was 50% bigger.


Ferrari is the second heaviest and least powerful car.


usually it's them getting BoP'd even when they're not winning


What's the meaning of BoP?


"getting BoP'd" is endurance racing fan terms for getting hit with nerfs via Balance of Performance, which is a balancing mechanic intended to keep the field close despite a variety of cars, designs, drivetrains, etc., in order to viabilize multiple concepts. Usually, if a car is too runaway fast, the FIA tweaks BoP to make it heavier or take away some of its power via restrictor plates, etc. I'm making fun of how Ferrari's F1 car got absolutely ruined last year and this one as well by the FIA, as if it was so dominant it absolutely needed a nerf, when it wasn't even that rampant fast


So what's stopping teams from sandbagging the whole time during testing etc. Put out slow times during practice, and once you get less BOP, unleash the full power during the actual race? I'm sure the Le Mans organizers/FIA has ways to prevent that, I'm just curious what those ways are? Thanks!




What type of data? Does the FIA get access to all the teams telemetry? And out of curiosity, what specific data would tell the FIA a particular team is not giving their all? I can think of accelerator pedal data? Anything I am missing?


Funnily enough you could argue Ferrari have been BOPed the heaviest in F1 the past decade or two.


The Ferrari F1 team is already BoPd by the Ferrari F1 team


That’s because both their entries are being managed by AF Corse and not Ferrari themselves.


When you say AF Corse "manages" both entries, does that mean Ferrari does not physically build the cars up? I assume Ferrari engineers are the ones designing the car, right? Does AF Corse "pay" Ferrari for the car design/name?


Ferrari builds/engineers the cars (along with partners like Dallara), AF Corse Is a customer team who practically functions as their official team, they buy the 499Ps from Ferrari and they manage the cars themselves during the weekends without interference from Ferrari.


Let’s hope they have a better pole to win ratio then F1 Ferrari the last few years. At least there is no Max to win after a Ferrari pole.


>Quite crazy to return there after 50 years and clinch a 1-2 in quali! Can someone attempt to explain to me how a pole position is any kind of accomplishment to be celebrated by a team when Balance of Performance is a factor???? Like ok Ferrari got a 1-2 but if WEC decided to tune their car slightly lower Toyota would have gotten pole, or if WEC decided to tune the Toyota slightly higher it would've gotten pole, or if they decided to tune the Cadillacs or Porsches slightly higher they would've gotten pole. Like obviously the drivers are extremely skilled and should be celebrated for their laps, but are we just going to sit here and pretend that BoP is absolutely perfect and all the cars are completely equal, and BoP is infallible. At worst it's really off (like Acura at Daytona), at best we can't be sure that they're really evenly balanced. It's absolutely ludicrous to suggest that the WEC ferrari team is better than the F1 team, when the F1 team is actually responsible for making their car competitively fast, where as the WEC team just gets the performance handed to and predetermined by the WEC themselves. Sorry for the long rant. TL;DR : BoP, doesn't count.


The BoP is nowhere near as helpful as you're suggesting. If it were, other manufacturers would be right up there as well. If the teams were just getting performance handed to them, then the Cadillacs, Porches and Glickenhauses would be challenging the leaders, but they are consistently a good distance behind. If you want to go down that route, then F1 isn't truly competitive either. Teams that are slower have more wind tunnel and CFD time to waste, and heavier cars are aided by the minimum weight limit.


Something something, new car, new project, no experience in endurance vs years of unmatched dominance, similar power/weight ratio to Toyota, i.e. worst power to weight ratio of the whole Hypercar field and still 1-2 in qualy at Le Mans, with a banger fastest lap obtained while getting held up by a GT and a LMP2. TL;DR: wah wah Toyota got bopped, except Ferrari had a similar BoP since Sebring.


What does bop mean?


Balance of Performance. Basically artificially slowing down certain manufacturers cars in order to create "parity". But of course there's no such thing as true parity and its always going to be too much or too little.


Is there a reason for this? It seems weird that teams would have to build the best car and have them be penalized if they do too well


To create closer racing and entice more manufacturers to join so that they don't have spend as much money to be competitive. Basically to create a more entertaining race to watch at the expense of making the end result kind of meaningless imo.


It seems like they want a spec series without actually building the cars themselves


The point is to let the manufacturers show off their design work and build their own components with their logo on it, and be sure it's going to be at least competitive with the rest of the field. Racing is primarily a marketing exercise, after all. AFAIK F1 is literally the only top series on the planet remaining that doesn't do any sort of BoP, and the lack of competitive seasons in the last decade doesn't do that concept any favors. It's maybe *fair*, but fairness doesn't sell cars or race tickets.


> AFAIK F1 is literally the only top series on the planet remaining that doesn't do any sort of BoP Does Indycar and Formula E do BoP? I know they are spec series, so is it that BoP is not needed in that case?


So what's stopping teams from sandbagging the whole time during testing etc. Put out slow times during practice, and once you get less BOP, unleash the full power during the actual race? I'm sure the Le Mans organizers/FIA has ways to prevent that, I'm just curious what those ways are? Thanks!


Spoiler filter doing absolutely nothing to hide the result haha


I was thinking it was McDonald's Racing Team before I clicked on it


Also the link showing as `twitter.com/Ferrar...` Yeah I wonder which brand this is


Ben Keating what a beast, 1,5 second faster than second car


How close was he to the pro driver times?


There is no GTE-Pro anymore, but last year the GTE-Am pople was 3.52.6 and GTE-Pro was 3.49.9.


The dude has been racing sportscars for longer than most of the actual professional drivers on the grid this year. I'm surprised Keating is not rated as a silver driver to be honest.


> I'm surprised Keating is not rated as a silver driver to be honest. Whats a silver driver? Someone who is experienced? If so, how many years racing is the cut-off? Thanks!


Silver driver is a semi-professional driver. They don't have the achievements of gold and platinum drivers but at times they can be as good. Very good silver drivers are extremely valuable to teams in many series because driving time regulations mean that lower rated drivers spend more time in the car and can make a bigger difference. Sometimes they bring some money in, other times they may not, depends on the particular team and driver.


Nicky Catsburg did 3:52.228 in yesterdays qualifying session in the same car, and Keating’s was 3:52.376 so only one and a half tenths over a four minute lap


I am all in on the Ferrari hype train, 499p is a beauty!


Forza Ferrari


No more "NextYear™" anymore, right?


This is Ferrari's first year back in a long time. They nail this on Sunday and it's "Ferrari win Le Man on its first attempt in 50 years" or something like that.


will (and where) they broadcast the whole race, question?


If you’re ok with pirating stuff, latifistreams.com is a good choice. If not, you can buy a pass on WEC’s website


thanks, sometimes I'm on high seas too, I might check it out later then


Enjoy the race matey. Yo ho


I may be wrong but I think back in the 2010's you could see the entire 24 hours uninterrupted on Eurosport 2. YouTube has recaps and highlights of every few hour blocks as well as headline events throughout the day/night.


thanks, I'll guess I'll check YouTube for highlight


In the UK it is shown live (with ad- breaks) on Eurosport 2.


Typically the car that wins in quali gets a disproportionately big BoP nerf before the race and is nowhere near as competitive. So I wouldn't raise my hopes too much.


Ferrari in F1: is it possible to learn this power?


Charles can put a car on pole… we don’t talk about whatever happens next.


Yes, just turn over the F1 team to AF Corse.




Well Maranello still builds the car so there's that


Maranello built the 499P.....




Maranello designed it, Dallara built it.


Just like how Haas "building" it's F1 car every year? ;)


they do know how to build a good car, its Just everything else that doesnt work


Ferrari knows how to build a good car ...It's their incompetence and lack of proper communication that results in shitty efficiency


Yes, you just need to hit Red Bull with balance of performance…


Ferrari F1 team: "We come back to you, we are checking"




I was expecting the 51 car to be ahead this year, but the 50 car especially Fuoco has been killing it so far.


I was really hoping it was the nascar


It was still fastest in its class tho


Well the NASCAR is the only car in it's class.


What was its time


The time of the NASCAR cup car was 3:47.976 this was from Qualifying a few days age didn’t take part in the Hyperpole.


Front row lockout no less. Toyota still probably favorites though.


>Toyota still probably favorites though. Why is that? they have the better race pace or better drivers or just better management in general?


They have more experience running the car, and have shown better race pace so far this season (although it's closer than the results would suggest). I'd say drivers are very evenly matched.


Le Mans is all about experience and some luck, and Toyota has way more of the former. The cars are about level on pace, it's just that they've been here for the past decade and have had this car for 3 years now while Ferrari's been out of it for 50 whole years


Ferrari has, but AF Corse know how to endurance race


More experience in general. The race pace was quite close at Spa, but Ferrari had problem with tire temperature (but at Le Mans we have tire warmers back).




499P vs Toyota for the race, so hype


So yet another ex teammate of Charles who is now closer to winning a race of the triple crown than Charles himself.


Sounds familiar...is that Harry Kane with his ex teammate?


Harry Kane doesn't win anything so he's safe. Specially funny watching West Ham win a major trophy before Kane does


First one in 50 years bby


Well that was a fucking lap thats for sure


They need to band together and play a tortoise and hare plan for the race. If they work together they can beat Toyota


would be nice to have something to be happy about, godspeed


I love that the spoiler blur is still very obvious bc of all the red


Soooo verstappen win?


Where Italian Jesus? And where Yenson?


Italian Jesus is part of the #51 crew but one driver at a time runs quali. Yenson is in a (pretty fucking epic) one off entry in its own class so they didn't do Hyperpole, which is basically Q3 but for 3 separate classes.


Do Garage 56 entries participate in qualifying?


Yes, they did 4 seconds faster than the GT cars haha https://www.theautopian.com/the-nascar-chevy-at-le-mans-is-faster-than-the-ferraris-porsches-aston-martins-and-corvettes/


No BoP for them... Put the GTE in an unrestricted class and the G56 Chevy wouldn't be first ahah


*nods* That's right, Blessing of Protection.


If the NASCAR cup car was unrestricted it would be much faster though. The same engines they use now, used to make just under 900 bhp until 2014. Haven’t heard an exact figure, but it’s rumored to be running the same 670 bhp that cup cars are running these days.


Yeah Spoiler or not you just know the Team that got there came from Italy


Finally Ferrari can win something this year


Where can an American watch this?




you won't see the cars, but I quite like radio le mans https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCa6pF3EwQW-Sj-46DOXWydw/streams


Motortrend pay $5 for one month


Good thing the blur hid the results


Yaaaaaa. Forza Ferrari. Please win Ferrari. I am cheering you on.


Wish they could translate it to F1. Forza Ferrari, congrats


Well it did. They just ignore the sundays.




If the red flag doesn't come out, Yota would be quite a bit closer, old tyres for that last lap


Porsche set the fastest 3rd sector at the end too, wonder where they could’ve been if they didn’t sit in the pits for half the session.


Ferrari got traffic in the last sector on their fastest lap. Fuoco lost at least 0.5 there


[Thanks for the spoiler, I have no idea who could it be!](https://i.imgur.com/ZHj6SQ9.png)


Kind reminder that old.reddit.com is a much better experience than the shitty current default interface.


Man, this BOP is shit


One of the Toyotas, I think it was Kamui, was only a tenth down on the first sector when the red flag dropped, so this result isn't really that close to truth




So? After the red flag their sector 1 times were like +0.4, the conditions were definitely not the best anymore.


Isn't Ferrari actually running the least power?


Yup. At the most power sensitive track on the calendar.


Barely, it’s 509kW vs 512kW between them and Toyota. Weight is 1064kg vs 1080kg which is going to have a larger impact.


It's nonsense to complain about BoP based on qualy results as it's made for having balanced *race* pace... The Ferrari was already the superior qualy car before the BoP change. It was them that got the first pole of the season at Sebring, despite it being a brand new car.


I don't think so my friend. Ferrari is running the lowest power and had the second biggest weight increase. The 499 is faster than Toyota in single lap pace, 24h race is another story of course.


And who had the biggest weight increase? Oh right, Toyota… Also, it’s 509kW vs 512kW between Ferrari and Toyota in power. Barely a difference. 1064kg vs 1080kg in weight, which is a much larger difference. You can pick certain facts to argue a point, but when you actually look at the bigger picture Toyota has been screwed by the BoP. Ferrari doesnt go from being on par with Toyota in qualifying, to 2s quicker for no reason. But you’re right, we’ll have to see how that translates to race pace and reliability, but looking at Spa they were on par there as well.


In what way?


Doesn't let the obviously better and faster car show what it can do. Artificially closes the gap to cars which are slower.


Welcome to WEC my guy. BOP isn't new. Are you mad Toyota didn't take pole? Thats foolish. They are still far and away the biggest favorite. They have a good reliable car and tons of experience. Its a 24 hour race for gods sake.


Yeah, it’s insane that Ferrari got the 2nd biggest weight increase and the biggest power output decrease. They would have ran away with it otherwise. Shame that the WEC feels the need to hold Ferrari back.




Because it's not letting Toyota run away with it ;)


Carefully. There a lot of people who hate Toyota and love Ferrari.




Doesnt the team at the very end of the grid cover more distance though? So assuming they finish last but complete the same number of laps as 1st place. They have technically covered more distance. Or did the rules change? Isnt that what happened when the ford GT crossed the finish line at the very same time.. Never watched the 24h before so im very uneducated on it.. but i want to tune in this weekend to see the camaro.


Well thats technically true for F1 as well so that doesnt really work. The rule is: Who crosses the finish line after the 24 hours with the most amount of laps is the winner. If two or more cars do the same amount of laps, the one who did it first is the winner.


Ahh gotcha... I thought in FvF when they forced the 3 gt40s to cross the line at the same time ken miles didnt win cuz the other started futher back and therefore covered more distance... now again.. i dont know rules.. or if that was done for the movie or if the rules changed... I would assume since pole is a big deal that your correct. Thanks


That was only because it was a dead heat photo finish and they didnt want two winners. I think nowadays its widely accepted that if there is a photo finish and both cars cross the line at the same time by the thousandth, both cars share the place.


Gotcha. Thanks


Is it me or does every time I click a twitter click the tweet drags ass to just load?


Mich Schumacher should have gotten himself involved in this program. I think it would have been better than seeing him sitting next to toto at all the races. And it would be following his father's footsteps in a way.


Tired of Ferrari dominance...


I am happy to see a change in the pecking order but this also pisses me off little bit. The new BOP was a bit too much in my opinion. The Toyota cars are running 13kg heavier than the Ferrari's and that's just ridiculous. Why work your arse off to make the best car when you are going to get nerfed to hell and back anyway?. The piece of shit Peugeot is running almost 50kg lighter thanks to this stupid BOP. How ridiculous is that? Toyota should still be the favourite for the win though. They should have better race pace.


This is always the problem with BoP. I can't remember the last time I watched a BoP series that didn't end with people complaining that the winner only won because of BoP, and a bunch of drivers and teams insinuating that with a better BoP they would've won.


Of course they're gonna say that with the best car they would've won.


So Ferrari CAN get a car right. Interesting, maybe the F1 team should consider to hire a couple of the engineers who worked on the 499P?


It not a coincidence that they started the LMH project after the cost cap came in to effect in F1.


Guess who worked on the 499P. Maranello. The same factory that built the sf23. When will you people understand that Ferrari is stuck with a shit car because of mid season regulation changes last year+the cost cap. You seriously think the engineers that developped the F1-75, the SF70H, the SF71H and the 499P you mentioned suddenly don't know how to build cars anymore?