[@ErikvHaren] Significantly for Verstappen: Red Bull initially did not even want him to do second run in Q3, but he himself wanted to. Was thus also faster on the road, but still broke off lap at team's request.

I really wanted to see Max in 1.11, to bad he broke off that lap


I really wanted to see Max in 1.11, to bad he broke off that lap


Max back on an actual race track is just scary.


he just enters a different level in the European leg of races.


Max 1^(st)appen


Haha yes. Very lovely that.


Yes boys






Honestly right now it's easier to believe Max is going to retire as the best driver ever rather than not. He is pure superhuman talent. He reminds me of Messi when he started to accumulate Ballon dOrs at a young age and people were questioning his status as the GOAT very early, which seems consensual nowadays by most players, managers and fans


I followed him in karting. Read all the news. I could not really see how much talent he had because I know jack shit about karting, but i could see he was fast. Very fast. Then came the F3 season and I really started noticing him. People rave about the Norisring in the wet but i could see he was special at Spa, winning all 3 races in a weekend with some bold overtakes. Then he came into F1 and Spain 2016 blahblah, but if you want to see a foreshadowing of what was to come, watch Mexico 2017. The Red Bull was the fastest car on that track and Max just absolutely, convincingly, positively, completely dominated that race. Then i knew if he ever got into a dominant car, he would be unstoppable. I just know that if you put him in the right cars, he would smash every record there is. There is not a single doubt in my mind we are witnessing the fastest driver ever in F1 right now. And it's scary to think he might even get a little bit better even. He truly is the real deal.


Don’t forget Brazil 2016. That drive in those conditions was truly amazing


Max really is inevitable at this point, it's like watching prime Sebastian Vettel go out there and do it race in race out, year in year out. In 2011, he would just take pole and bolt off at the start of a race with nobody even close to challenge him. At some things he's even better than what Vettel used to be. Even as a Seb fan, I have to admit that he had his weaknesses (mostly mental), especially during the late Ferrari years you couldn't really rely on him to bring it home every single race. The ability was clearly still there because he was able to do it at a few races but at the others he would just make mistakes while trying to overdrive the car. After a certain point, unfortunately something happened in that mind of his. He didn't have that unshakeable belief in his ability like Lewis, Fernando and Max have.


> He didn't have that unshakeable belief in his ability like Lewis, Fernando and Max have. he never had the driving ability of Max, Fernando or Lewis either.


Hurts me to say it as he is my favourite driver of all time, but yes he’s a notch below these 3 drivers in ultimate ability. But as a person, he’s probably the best there has been in F1 and his evolution from brash youngster to a genuinely great human was wonderful to see


Yes I wasn’t trying to discredit his ability, only wanted to say that he’s a notch below GOAT level. I also welcomed his personal evolution, he was sort of an acquired taste when he was younger.


True I would’ve refused to believe it until 2015, but 2017 onwards, it was very painfully evident that he wasn’t in the absolute top tier of drivers. Still never stopped me from wishing for a Seb win every single time😀


That's fair, we can agree on that.


The amount of Renault engines that died that race was insane.


What would be, top 10 races from Max?


In no particular order, for me it would be: 2015 US GP 2016 Chinese GP 2016 Spanish GP 2016 Brazilian GP 2018 US GP 2019 Brazilian GP 2020 70th Anniversary GP 2021 US GP 2022 Hungarian GP 2023 Miami GP There are definitely some others that deserve credit, like Germany 2019 and some of his more dominant weekends like Austria 2021 and of course Spa last year, but these are all races where he had to work for an incredible finishing position, not all of them victories.


> In no particular order I dunno, they look particularly chronological.


Been said about every stand out talent from the era. Fangio, Jim, Senna, Schumacher, Hamilton, Verstappen


Yeah a “GOAT” is hard just due to how much the sport has changed. I do think that max will be remembered in that list of the 10 or so greatest drivers.


The best you can really do is point to the best driver of a decade or period in F1. We've had the Schumacher years, Vettel years, Hamilton years and are now living in the Verstappen years.


Absolutely. He's got the next 2 or 3 WDC's easily barring any acts of God. And if he does go to other series and gets championships wins in them, it'll cement it further. He is a special talent


I agree with you, it’s just tricky to compare drivers now to drivers 60 years ago going 140mph in a metal cigar with zero safety.


They were fucking mad. No other words, just absolutely nuts to be racing cars in that era. Like, "yea I'll probably die in a horrendous fireball, but fuck it, let's go". Insanity.


The fact that deaths each year were the norm rather than the exception is crazy


It was a different time in all ways. Saying that we still have the Isle of Mann TT for the adrenaline suicidal junkies (jokes, but not. That shit is also just nuts on a fucking motorbike)


When i look at rally, i think thats crazy but at least those cars have lots of safety built in. The isle of Mann you make one mistake and you get sliced in half by someone's fence. That race is pure insanity to me


In fairness, 60 years ago the talent of the field was generally kinda garbage. F1 back then was really just a place for rich people to drive really fast cars. Hell, even in the 80s, the talent in the field was generally not very good. Mario Andretti was quoted as saying, "It is amazing how many drivers, even at the Formula 1 level, think that brakes are for slowing the car down." This was in reference to using the brakes to transfer weight during trailbraking, a technique which is prevalent even in amateur racing these days. In the last decade? If you weren't scouted before you hit puberty, your odds of getting into Formula 1 were not very high. These days, any of the top 5 - 10 drivers would have been considered generational talents compared to the drivers from before the 2000s. To me, the fact that Verstappen is clearly performing head-and-shoulders above everyone else in such a strong field is incredible, and I think based on that alone, I would consider him one of the greatest of all time.


> To me, the fact that Verstappen is clearly performing head-and-shoulders above everyone else in such a strong field is incredible, and I think based on that alone, I would consider him one of the greatest of all time. Unless all drivers were driving the same car, this is impossible to say. The guy has crazy talent as shown throughout his career so far and that's why he'll be one with the others, it isn't because he has by far the best car right now "beating" everyone.


People are not judging Verstappen by this season alone. He has been consistently faster than all his team mates, with the exception of the time when he took to many risks (and had some bad luck as well). And even then, in raw performance he was superior. He brought the fight to Mercedes when Mercedes seemed to be unbeatable. When he is in a position where he can dominate, that is exactly what he does. Similar to Schumacher and Hamilton. There are other great drivers, but Schumacher, Hamilton, and Verstappen can consistently make the most of a superior car. Part of this is talent, but it’s also an attitude. It’s not just that he’s better than all his team mates, it’s that he consistently is much better and keeps bouncing back after setbacks. Last race he had that crazy last qualifying session, and the rain interfered with his strategy. Yes, he had the fastest car, but so did Perez. Verstappen could have played it safe, or he could have made a few mistakes and given Alonso a real chance of winning. But he just dominated.


The guy I replied to is judging him based on his performance right now so in a way, yes people are. The rest of your comment is a nothing burger. Beating your above average driver teammate doesn't make you a god.


We will not have that problem with Fernando when he's driving in 2060.


I for one fully support robo-nando


They only did 140, because their balls were so large and heavy.


I don't think you can say that with the fact that Red Bull simply has the best car by FAR. Unless you think they will stay that far ahead of the pack, i don't think he has the next couple seasons in the bag.


Realistically, when he’s done, people very well may be saying the three best all time are Senna, Schumacher, and Verstappen (no, not that one. The other one) Edit: I am very dumb and forgot Hamilton since the gut reaction is always Senna, Schumacher, X. Realistically, those four will be the ones shuffled around for top three if Max keeps up his current form for another few years


I feel youre forgetting another 7x champ


This man omitted Alonso from the list, and thought we wouldn’t notice.


Y’a forgot mick Schumacher


I agree. My question who is going to He His Ronaldo?


Will be really hard for anyone to be his Ronaldo, Messi and Ronaldo stood out because of how great they were/are, Max's Ronaldo could probably be Charles but Ferrari are not serious at all, Russell is too busy either crashing into other drivers or getting shat on by his team-mate and Lando drives for Mclaren


Charles could be his Ronaldo, but he's playing for "Maranello Sportiva" instead of Real Madrid unfortunately.


*be not he


No way to know for sure until everyone is in equal cars. F1 is simply to car dependent.


I'm terrified and loving it


Barcelona is also a big track to differentiate the aero quality of the car. It was predicted RBR would crush everyone here and there it is.


There is a RB that did not get to Q3...


And another 1s ahead. I kinda trust the faster one is the real performance….


When was the last time in dry conditions and no extraordinary circumstance that a driver could just chill and not do a final run for pole ? Must have been quite some time.


Verstappen last year in Spa and was still 6 tenths up (though he didn't actually start from pole as he had a penalty)


That weekend was absolute annihilation. One lap per qualifying session then chilling in the pits. Got pole by 6 tenths regardless. Got demoted to P14? with engine penalties but back in the lead by lap 12.


I sure love to see the peak of humanity on display. Both in terms of the best development of a machine (under regulations) and the peak performance of a person in highest bracket of competition


Still wish they would have started him from the back just to see the domination


Lewis in Interlagos, P20 to P1. With a sprint race though


P25 not P20 P20 to P5 in sprint P10 to P1 in race


P25 is the same as P20


No, it's not because 5 place grid penalty was applied after the sprint result.


But on the other hand, he switched losing places after the sprint for all the advantage Max had at that point as well. I honestly think the sprint robbed us of an even more spectacular story. He would be the first one to win starting from last. I know Perez was last after lap one on his first win, but saying someone won starting from last just looks cooler.


It bugged me he said it was a 25 place penalty. p1 to p25 would be a 24 place penalty it was 19 + 5




Thats hungary


360 was in Silverstone with the rain and Hungary in the dry, not Spa.


Max did that in Spa last year I think? His first Q3 time was good enough for pole but he didn't get it because he was taking engine penalties there - Q1 one run on new softs - Q2 one run on used softs - Q3 one run on new softs


Nothing will top Vettel in Singapore getting out of the car after his first lap.


There was still 2 minutes left and the team was like "Nah good enough they can't touch you." and called it.


His face when the other drivers were doing purple sectors on their second runs was golden.


True, and I was a bit annoyed when his team did not pick up the steering wheel from him when he was exiting the car, dented the moment a little bit. Also, to note, Rosberg lost pole by only 0.091s in the end. Edit: The [video](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KjzWynz4hMI&feature=youtu.be)


Damn I miss Rosberg's strong qualis


Didn't Max do same in Spa last year?


Quite possibly, I was there though and am somewhat hazy on the details


Drivers getting out of their cars before the end of qualy used to happen a lot more frequently, I don't know what changed.


Track evolution appears to be stronger


Didn't Charles also do that once at Imola?


dont think so


I think to remember one race where his first Q3 lap was so good he parked the car. Might not have been for pole though, or might only have happened in my head.


I think it was Sakhir 2020 for 4th, he drove basically a perfect lap and said there was no point doing another as there was no more to get. Ferrari was such a tractor that year he ended up 4th with the perfect lap.


Thanks man!! I was worried I was day dreaming F1 stuff


https://youtu.be/SU8o5aHDKVQ look at Lando’s face lol


Last year at Spa.


Happened a bunch in the Hamilton Bottas era.


Did it? I can't offhand think of any. Bottas was always in Q3 (I think literally every single time at Merc) and always on the same strategy (timing-wise) as Lewis, with very similar pace. The team certainly had dominant years, but rare was it one of the Merc drivers didn't make Q3 to give the other pressure for pole (that holds true for Rosberg and Lewis too)


Bottas had a 104 gp Q3 streak going when he got to Alfa and it took him a couple of races to lose it


Bottas could definitely challenge Hamilton in qualifying. In terms of pole positions, Hamilton 'only' got twice as many (41 vs 20)


Ok Max, it’s time to turn up the ai


“Perez was making our car look competitive, and I took that personally. I didn’t want anyone to think they could compete with our car.” - Verstappen 2023


Reminds me of Vettel during the quali for the 2013 Singapore GP


Or himself at Spa last year


No need to show the true delta with the rest of the grid.... That's just more trouble than anything else.


It was more about saving tyres and engine wear. Everyone knows the *true delta* Max is carrying.


Ikr. There's zero benefit to completing the lap but minor downsides so it's only logical to pit. But some people online will say it's part of a conspiracy where Red Bull are 3 seconds faster than everyone else and are trying to hide it.


> There's zero benefit to completing the lap but minor downsides so it's only logical to pit. Zero racing or logical reason to complete... But Max wants it haha. Little morale boost, he enjoys it. I mean FK it. Let the man do what he likes at this point. Need fresher tyres? Win w a set of hards or something.


I mean, its literally what has happened already with merc. Its not so far fetched


Merc were turning down their engine which is illegal now.


It's not illegal to turn your engine down. You just have to run the same settings you run in quali throughout the race. So if they wanted to they could turn down the engine for all of quali and the race. Since I'm locked now and that guy blocked me here's some easy reading. https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.qualifying-engine-modes-what-are-the-proposed-changes-and-why-do-they-matter.OI3cSGqWS6mONcBHUFncL.html


It is illegal to turn down your engine now. If you don't turn it down, then obviously you're not breaking the rules... And they turned it down knowing they could turn it back up if needed, Red Bull can't do that. Do some research on the sport and educate yourself, you clearly don't properly understand what you're talking about.


Party modes were banned. It’s not illegal to turn down your engine.


It's not even illegal to turn down your engine. If you provide data that it's a saftey concern you can turn it down mid race if you have to.




We do know. Max's last lap would have been anywhere from a 12.1 to an 11.9. Around 7-8 tenths ahead of Sainz. 1.5 seconds is a ridiculous exaggeration.


No it's not haha, if it was anything close to that Perez would be P2 easily.


Perez doesn’t even know the true speed of the Red Bull.


That is absolutely true


If it was actually *that* much faster Perez would've made it to Q3. Verstappen was improving and he may have gotten another 2 or 3 tenths but no more.


The car doesnt drive itself, the driver is a big component. If you look at Schumi/Rubens-Irvine, Lewis/Nico-Bottas or Seb/Mark, one driver is able to extract a bit more of the car - mostly because said driver is just a faster driver. Max is faster than Sergio. Today, Max was driving fast but I dont think he is at the limit or even flat out. Look at the onboard camera, all the drivers are fighting with the cars, Max is too but way way less. That's the car being better, but that's also because they dont have to go to the limit.


> The car doesnt drive itself, the driver is a big component. No shit but it's not that big a gap. If the Red Bull had 1-1.5s on the field they'd be 1-2 in qualy. The gap between Perez and Verstappen is not that big. > Look at the onboard camera, all the drivers are fighting with the cars, Max is too but way way less Well yeah, the Red Bull is incredibly stable and reliable in medium and high speed corners. The really fast laps are rarely if ever ones where they're fighting the car. Max is on the limit but still smooth.


Why say 1.5s when you can say 10s?


The biggest reason to stop the lap is it wasn't worth dumping the car into the gravel in sector 3 if he made a mistake or something. Horner even mentioned as much to Max over the radio.


That has nothing to do with aborting the last run. The sector times bar the last few corners were there so there was nothing to hide. Only about saving tyres.


Ok, that's straight Mercedes 2014-2016 shit.


Merc did a better job at hiding their true pace tho.


I love how the people complaining about “unprecedented” RB dominance ruining F1 are forgetting almost a decade of Merc running unopposed.


Zero people have said RB domination is "unprecedented", stop inventing. They just don't want to go back to 2014, especially when there is no Rosberg to spice things up a little.


Definitely not zero people.


I’m not inventing lol, there are a lot of people with short memories acting like this has never happened before.


You are literally answering a guy comparing it to Mercedes dominance. Maybe try no to be off topic next time.


Staying on topic doesnt mean blindly agreeing lmao


Yes, I was agreeing with that person’s point while calling out a recent phenomenon in the discourse. What part of this is hard to grasp?


At least Merc had the decency to sandbag a bit and give people hope. RB and Max are just steamrolling everyone.


He wasn't even pushing the limits on 1st q3 run. Jos knew it was enough for pole and Max had more time on the table when they showed him nodding after the lap.


That was after his lap in q2 though


I didn’t see the jos moment but you can just see how smooth his steering inputs are on his first q3 run. It didn’t seem like he was near the limit.


They should request he start in the pitlane at spa just for the vibes


They should give teams an option to choose to start from the back but get double points for a podium finish or something.


For max’s sake, that would be borderline cheating


He could have got pole by a second or could have got pole from the garage but he chose the boring option exactly in between. We got robbed of an inconic moment lol.


If you are going to be dominant, show your dominance and put in some amazing laps for the ages. Not this dumb shit


I wonder if we’ll ever get to see what this RB is actually capable of


Man, I hope so. At least once.


You saw it in Baku and Jeddah.


We would if Perez could at least put his car in q3


Yes, have checco on pole, have max have some sort of disaster, and have checco run one of the best races of his career and you can have your race


So it’s never gonna happen


Until another team starts stealing wins it's not going to happen. They don't even have their engines turned all the way up.


I'm not a fan and also don't dislike him. This dude is working on his legend status at the moment. This kind of dominance you have seen in recent years with Hamilton, Vettel and Schumacher and those guys are in the legend club.


I genuinely believed that as the track evolved we would see something similar to Q1 with drivers posting times in the 1:11s towards the end of quali and Max would end up 2nd. Pole would go to whoever finished just before Max and they would have gotten a nice slip stream from the Haas/Alpine. Suddenly everyone just started to fall off, even Lewis/Norris/Carlos who got into the 12s failed to improve more than a tenth, while somehow Max pulled 5-tenths out of his butt. On his final lap I thought Max had a yellow sector one but made it back in S2 and was 2+ tenths up from his previous time (could be wrong here). It’s a shame we didn’t get to see what could have come from him.


That yellow sector was misleading, it was only 0.025 seconds slower than his best, still nearly a tenth faster than anyone else did.


You’re right about Max’s second lap. RB are just trying to hide how good they really are for fear of getting nerfed by some rule change.


Redbull really have ptsd from 2021 and went all out


No one on the current grid is strong enough to challenge Max for the WDC, and that's just sad for the rest of the grid


If no competition appears nor anything unusual happens to Max he will likely win every race from now until Singapore (the next street circuit).


Why would he have a problem with street circuits? He won Monaco again just last Week?


Never forget Checo, the king of the steets Sarcasm off


> steets I fucking love it that people are still using this!


Because some people apparently still believe street circuits are actually Max's weakness, and Perez's strength.


No, because a screw up in Qualifying is harder to recover from


It’s more that on a track like this he can overcome a fuckup by himself or his team in qualy. But in Singapore that’s a lot harder (as last year showed)


True, just a bit more uncertainty than permanent circuits. Btw Canada is the next street circuit, even though it doesn't feel like it


He tends to be better on race circuits compared to street circuits. And Monaco might just happend because AM fucked up with their tire choice.


Monaco happened cause Max was fucking flawless that day. He told mediums they were hards and did a 55 lap stint with the best pace out of anyone.


Yeah he was flawless, but so was Alonso. And if they didnt fuck up his tire choice he might have taken the win.


And even then, he might still win, the only reason he didn’t start on pole last year was that fuel thingy, nevertheless it would be quite the achievement to get to singapore without any DNF’s or second places


God that was possibly the maddest I’ve ever heard him at his own team!


I think that’s the biggest fuck up RB have done regarding Max, at least as far as I recall


Is agree


Sergio Perez the "king" of streets, so kind and gracious to allow Max to lap him in Monaco and beat him on older tyres in Miami.


Shows how far that rb in hus hands are ahead. Could have done .8 to 1sec faster than sainz in p2.


Red Bull sandbagging in Q3 Nice


Max has been sandbagging all season up to that moment /s


They probably didn't want to show their true speed. I am getting 2014 Merc vibes from all this.


They gotta sandbag a little. If they showed their true pace, F1 stewards might just do another rule change for next year to close the gap behind them. Just like they did last year, raising the minimum floor level up 10mm thinking it would slow down the rb. Its the same with the Mercs later in the hybrid era. They rarely showed their full potential, but when they did, Lewis and Bottas could easily pull a 1 sec gap per lap on the next team. F1 wants close competitve racing at the top. Most, non-hardcore race fans don't want to watch a race where the winner isnt close to being challenged. No exciting moments, no drama means less views, less money and sponsors. F1 reaped the rewards from the 2021 Max/Lewis battle.


I think one of the big problems is and you can see it everywhere. People call Schumacher/Hamilton the best F1 driver ever. Commonly, especially for Hamilton, they'll bring up the 7 titles. So if the titles are used as a measurement and if you want a fair competition other drivers should also be able to compete for those titles right? But as soon as a car/driver becomes dominant people cry about boredom, dominance and lack of challenge.


Interesting to sees them re-learn to sandbag (it's been a while since Vettel). For a true racer like Max it must be awkward to be told to go slow. Wonder if Red Bull thinks FIA might clip the RB wing (RB floor) like they did to Merc in 2021, but targeting the RB floor.


The intention in 2021 wasn't to slow down merc. It was just an unexpected side effect.


If Max wins 8 championships total and gets the triple crown then he is certified F1 goat in my books!!!


Why do you have to win Le Mans and Indy to be an F1 goat?


I man Hamilton already won the first one per the actual rulebooks.