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Very messy session for Sainz. Disappointingly he seems to have dropped back to where he was at the beginning of last year, not very quick and doesn't look comfortable in the car
It's not an issue that he's slower than LEC. It's that he's making mistakes while doing it and makes the problem worse. If he kept things together and was 2-3 tenths slower it would be fine.
The problem is that carlos apparently thinks he can challenge charles if he pushes hard enough.
Everyone should have accepted this already. Charles is a top level driver, and there are only 4 or 5 that come under that bracket. If he can produce his form from the last 2/3 of last season over a season then he and Charles would make a very good partnership were Ferrari ever in a position to challenge for a WDC/WCC
Is literally the biggest sponsor, at the same level of Shell and VGW Play. You can see it on the Ferrari webpage. Bigger than AWS or Philip Morris
Also, Estrella Galicia as tier 2 sponsor is linked to Sainz
It wouldn’t be that far fetched to think that about 20% of sponsor money comes from Santander + Estrella (sponsors brought because Sainz being there).
I’m all for giving priority to Charles if he is faster, and last year the team made stupid decisions sometimes giving Carlos more chances that he deserved, but I think Ferrari is eyeing that sponsor money and trying to balance things, not treat Sainz as a Checo
I genuinely don't think Ferrari desperately needs those sponsors because they are the goddamn Ferrari.
They will have no where to hide if he keeps dunking on terrible performances. imho Sainz could be the worst driver Scuderia had in the past 20 years.
Yeah, but I think some time ago they switched to the thinking of “if we can get more money, the better”. This team is not the Ferrari of Enzo or even the Ferrari of FIAT, is a publicly traded company with shareholders that expect growth and dividends. About 67% of Ferrari is traded, 23% Agnelli family and 10% Piero Ferrari.
This new path of Ferrari begins on 2016 when the company started its new “standalone” journey, completing its separation from FIAT (FCA).
So, I don’t think the Ferrari of today is a company that would say “we don’t need more money” or “we don’t care about sponsors money”.
Now, first, they need to be profitable as in they don’t have anyone backing them (FIAT Group), and need to grow and generate the biggest profit possible so their shareholders are happy.
Santander started again sponsoring because Sainz is Spanish, it’s that simple. IDK if Sainz already started to film ads or being the face of Santander in Spain, but it’s usual there to make this kind of deal
For example, Alonso in his Renault years was sponsored by Telefonica (biggest sponsor, you can see it on the 2005-2006 Renault car) and he was their “face” in ads
About Santander in previous years, if I remember correctly, Santander sponsored Ferrari when Alonso was there, and because whatever reason (contracts?) stick around 1-2 more years after he left
He clearly has a bad weekend. At Bahrain he was 0.15 off. Also everyone says Leclerc is the best qualifier on the grid and then talks shit on sainz for being behind
Not a shame for a humble man, but Sainz just has that arrogance in his speech which triggered a lot of Ferrari over the past seasons. Such a gap won't go down well with the fanbase
Well I mean thats subjective, I perceive it like at. Arrogance masked as professional and pseudo humble statements.
To be fair, english isn't my first language nor is it his, so ofc there are cultural differences and so on, but I don't perceive many drivers like that.
Can you share news reports (from reliable sources) where his family steered shit up?
Also, can you respond to my question if you downvoted? When is he arrogant? He is literally saying 'I messed up in the first sector', idk what else do you expect the guy to do, cry and say Leclerc is unreachable?
[here is an article about the Ferrari pit crew not wanting to attends sainz win ](https://amp.focus.de/thema/formel-1/dicke-luft-bei-der-scuderia-ferrari-crew-plante-boykott-gegen-carlos-sainz_id_112504891.html) there is something foul. If you get deeper into it the more you learn. The most obvious is probably Oñoro Carlos who seems to be in the Ferrari box constantly.
No one forced Carlos to waste two sets in Q2, had he not used the extra set he would've qualified outside of top 10.
It's time to treat Carlos as what he is and always will be, a solid number 2. Hopefully Fred is more sensible than Binotto. If Charles survives the first lap and if his bad luck doesn't strike again, he will catch up to Sainz quite easily. And when he's behind Sainz, order Sainz to move over.
I still can't get over the fact they fired Vettel for this guy. He is objectively worse in every aspect. He was a fine driver at McLaren, but he is not fit to be a Ferrari driver fighting for championships. Leclerc has embarrassed him the last 2 seasons.
Leclerc had 2 DNF in races where he would realistically get second and maybe hope for a win. If he gets 2 2nd places there I think he would've end up above Perez.
I can and I will. Sainz’s race pace vs Leclerc in 2021 was embarrassing. Just because he got rewarded with podiums when he crashed in quali while Leclerc was punished with DNS does not make his 2021 season better than Leclerc’s. In quali, H2H and race pace, Leclerc absolutely owned him in 2021.
No if else or buts, if you have more points you did better. If hypothetically Hamilton beats Max on last race in 2021, it is embarrassing if you make this same argument and say Max absolutely owned Hamilton because Max's pace is overall better, but got punished by some DNFs such as Silverstone and Baku.
Disagree. If Ham beat Ver at AD 2021, I would not say that he did not deserve the WDC, but yes, I would say that Max outperformed him over the entire season.
Charles ***absolutely*** outperformed Carlos over the 2021 season. That is not in dispute at all. It's not even just race pace. But in every way aside from luck, Charles was superior to Carlos in 2021 - head to head in race, qualifying, front row starts, just absolutely everywhere.
Leclerc performed better overall because he is better driver overall, but in no world did Leclerc embarrassed Sainz that year, or even in 2022.
If what Leclerc did in 21 and 22 embarrassed Sainz, then what Perez did is sackable offence because he's even further behind Max.
what? No it’s not. If Hamilton won Abu Dhabi any right in the head fan would’ve realizes the better driver lost.
Same with Sainz and Leclerc. Everyone realizes Leclerc destroyed Sainz
So is ocon better than alonso last year? Points isnt everything if you dont know the context. Other than points. Leclerc won every head2head he had with sainz in 2021
I'm not sure I'd say he deserved to win in Monaco as he crashed out of quali. He either doesn't start or he has a gearbox penalty and starts not on pole. He did however deserve Silverstone and would have won it if not for engine issues.
Explain how Leclerc "embarrassed him" in 2021 please? He did what he could with that relatively shit car and helped get Ferrari to P3 in the constructors.
Now, fighting for championship wins is a slightly different story.
Leclerc was consistently faster in almost every Q3 session, had superior race pace and better tyre management. Sainz ended up ahead in the points simply because Leclerc was unlucky. Sainz was never impressive in his last 2 years at Ferrari. Consistency kinda saved him in 2021, but 2022 showed he is very mediocre overall.
“embarrassed him” is still a huge overstatement with regards to 2021. Does it paint a somewhat misleading picture that Sainz outscored Leclerc? Of course it does but Sainz still had a very good year that year. As he did in his two years at McLaren. He’s not as fast as Leclerc but that doesn’t make him a mediocre driver, that’s a ridiculous thing to say.
guys the gaps were under 0.15 seconds iirc. Sainz benefitted from the stable rear end, which wasn't present in 2022 until mid way (which coincidentally saw the gap drop again to around 0.15-0.2 seconds). He is slower than charles, but not by much. It's clearly a stability/confidence issue in the car. We gave Vettel the same excuse for 4 years at Ferrari against geriatric Kimi. Who knows how well Sainz would've done then, when he was considered a top 5-6 talent on the grid from 2019 to 2021.
Neither can I even though I felt Vettel was making quite a few slip ups. Yeah it’s just regular Ferrari suffering. They don’t seem to have anyone coming up from the junior ranks either.
Vettel didn't had the heart to drive for Ferrari anymore and it looks like Binotto played a big part in it. There was something going on inside Ferrari during 2019 and 2020. Maybe Binotto thought Vettel was the problem, but 2022 showed it was much more than that. I'm glad Vettel moved to AM and showed he can still drive, these clowns at Ferrari management are sabotaging themselves. And it looks like Binotto followed their path. Maybe Vasseur can improve the team, he is a more appropriate person for the role of TP than an engineer.
Vettel should be praised to even come reasonably close to battling goat combination of Hamilton and Mercedes, not being bashed for eventually losing to Hamilton and Mercedes. A driver making mistakes here and there is a natural thing to happen. Put anyone else on Vettel's position in 17/18 they will probably be further behind Hamilton.
? Wym they don’t have anyone coming up…..bearman is literally in f2 and moreover most current drivers would jump at the chance to sign if Ferrari wanted to replace Carlos
It IS perfectly fine. But what I don't like is how ferrari give in when he get outspoken on the radio like he is the no.1.
Example: British grand prix - ferrari should have swapped them ages ago but sainz kept suggesting to stay ahead and that he will go faster
That's bound to change. Binotto's management was very passive. He didn't want to choose a clear number one. This year's different. I can totally see them favoring Leclerc more.
there is no point in picking one this year. they are not fighting for the championship. it was supposed to be last year the moment RB pulled team orders in Spain. They didn't and paid for it.
Ferrari had the wrong strategy that day and he was 100% correct in arguing against it. That the narrative has turned into him doing that to sabotage Leclerc makes no sense. It was Ferrari that fucked up Leclerc’s race, not Sainz.
He is talking about the middle of the races when Sainz was 1st but slower than Leclerc and was holding him up. He was begging for more laps iirc and saying shit like it doesen't change anything who's ahead because the drs would give back the time lost in the dirty air. After the swap he kept up for a couple laps and then started losing time when he was asked to save fuel.
people wouldn't mid him if he actually gave us anything to be proud of, even perez has AB21 for RB fans to love him for, sainz has no great races for us and everyytime we need him to perform he drops the biggest pile of dogshit.
If anything Charles should learn from Carlos and sometimes be more assertive on the radio because Ferrari can’t always be trusted with their own strategy calls.
Just look at last season’s British Grand Prix for example. Charles could’ve still won if they pitted him immediately for softs as he was already in the lead when the safety car came out. But somehow Ferrari were unable to make that decision for him within the 4-5 seconds he had before he went past the pit entry. Sure it’s only a few seconds to react but considering the situation in the race it was a no-brainer to tell him to pit immediately. Instead they either panicked or somehow decided to split the strategy because they stupidly thought that staying out on used hards for a sprint near the end is as good as having new softs on.
Charles asked if he can pit but Xavi told him pit is closed, thats why u see him slow down near the pit entrance before going. It was afaik open tho so bad communication. But if Charles pitted and it was indeed close he wouldve been penalized so he cant do anything about it.
Thanks for mentioning that I wasn’t aware of what the radio communications were like. I don’t fault Charles for being more assertive on radio I just think he needs that sometimes to counteract Ferrari’s own mistakes. Looking aside from Silverstone, Carlos also argued against the strategists in Monaco, and his own insistence on staying out on the wets ended up being a better strategy in track position than what Ferrari gave Charles.
I do think Charles said they were working on fixing their mistakes after Hungary last season and I’ve noticed that his engineer seeks his input more often on the radio so hopefully these strategic mistakes can be rectified.
Him counteracting monaco was the reason they lost tho. Had he pitted to cover checo, he wouldve still be infront of him and maybe net p1.
The winning strategy was Checo's inter to slicks, not the wet to slicks.
Charles had 5 seconds to sainz who had 2 seconds to checo, had he covered Checo, he had a 2second gap to initially cover him, he didnt and Ferrari made Charles do the covering because checo was too fast. Being on inters was also the reason they botched the pitstop and made them double pit.
Ferrari didnt anticipate Charles being so fast in the inters that they couldnt doublestack them, had they let charles go for another lap, he wouldve been ahead of Sainz because the track was wet enough for the inters to work.
And charles was also saying he wanted to go to slicks from the wets. You just didnt hear it from the main feed.
Yeah without all the access to their onboards and radio I can only judge what I see and hear from the main feed. When exactly did Ferrari tell Carlos to pit for inters? If it was after Checo already pitted for inters then it would’ve been too late to cover the undercut anyways so I feel staying out on wets would’ve been better.
And even if Charles also asked for wets, he eventually listened to the team anyways while Carlos was able to overrule them. So I still think it goes back to my point that Charles can try to be more assertive in certain situations. It’s really unfortunate for him to have to put up with it but for his own benefit I feel he needs to trust his own instincts more instead of relenting to whatever Ferrari say.
I think some of the criticism (atleast for me) comes because of his camp. The cousin, and the father constantly hyping him up against Charles + the spanish media.
Lando was in a similar situation before racing Ricciardo, with a lot of hype from the British media. But he went ahead and proved himself, and he's got overwhelming support from most fans.
Every driver’s own national media is going to be biased in their favor. We see Sky constantly hype up Mercedes and the Dutch media openly cheer for Max too. Same goes for the closest ppl around the driver himself.
Don’t see why that has to be a reason for anyone to dislike Carlos. Of course he’d want an opportunity to prove himself in a front running car, and Ferrari gave that to him. The order naturally sorts itself over time if Carlos is constantly slower than Charles so it’s no big deal.
If people want to blame anyone here then I guess blame Ferrari upper management which is probably Binotto for bringing Carlos in. But even if Binotto decided to keep Seb I doubt Seb would be happy settling as the second driver behind Charles. Him and Charles could possibly continue to clash on track just like we saw a few times in 2019.
So I really don’t see that alternative being any better for Charles himself. The only issue Charles needs to deal with is making sure Ferrari build him a good enough car to compete for the championship with and make sure they are sharp enough to avoid operational mistakes like they did last season.
I don't see Charles' entourage stirring things up in the garage, now do i? But I can always bet to see someone from Sainz's camp to be right there. And on DTS. and in the media.
Very different approaches.
Yup, last week everyone was quiet and now everyone crawls out their caves. He clearly has bad weekend and considering Charles is the best qualifier on the grid, its fair to be 2, 3 tenths off
It is only because some people claim (without solid sources) that Sainz Sr is politic against Leclerc. So thats why. Meanwhile they forget that Charles also has strong political background.
Helmut Marko was the first one to call the Sainz family out on that and thats one strong source. You can think of Marko whatever you want, but he was never bullshitting around such topics.
Also internal Ferrari sources seem to have the same opinion in that regard. You won't get more "evidence" than that in F1.
By the way it isn't Sainz Sr alone. Its the senior, Carlos and his cousin.
Literally no evidence of any kind to back this up other than conspiracy theories. Santander doesn't give a shit about Carlos and Estrella Galicia is a **minor** sponsor. Blame Ferrari racing operations if you want, but this has always been nonsense.
You say like you work for the team. Not everything has to be simple or complicated, there is a chance either of the statements could be true.
But we have Marko's statements to support Sainz's political influence.
He's usually like 2 tenths off Charles I'm not concerned - everyone has a bad session occasionally. If he was consistently half a second off like Danny Ric than there would be a problem but it's not even close to that point yet
I think it'll look worse this year, compared to last, because the field is MUCH closer (except RB). Aston stepped up, and so did Merc (They were out in Q2 last year this time). Every tenth counts.
Bad luck and the bad strategy calls went to Charles last year, I hate that. Hopefully Fred does better and realizes he needs to make Charles the priority. I'm so tired of Sainz' excuses and his team.
Yes, same shit strat yet Leclerc had 3 DNFs while leading (2 completely on team). Got taken victories in Silverstone, Monaco and Hungary and each of these went to Sainz direction even if he was miles of...
Sainz was nowhere near Leclerc last season, he started even worse this one.
> Same shit strategy as Leclerc
When has been Sainz robbed off a race win on pure pace?
Three times, might i add.
> 4 DNFS
Assuming you are excluding his 2 mechanical failures (Same as Leclerc), i'll agree on that.
> 5 second pitstops
A Ferrari classic. Nothing surprising here
> 3 wheels on pitstops
Leclerc was left with inters on dry.
if he doesn't improve and gives stinkers one after another, it's not out of the realm that he would be bought out of contract.
Italian media, his politicking pissing off people in team and him being former management's hire all go against him in Ferrari at the moment. Only thing he can do is to perform on track.
Bearman, Pourchaire, Shwartzman all are licking their chops thinking of that Ferrari 2nd seat everytime Sainz underperforms. Now maybe even Lewis and Lando from the current grid too.
It's a seat in one of the Big 3 Carlos, and you don't have the luxury of RB19 so much so that the management doesn't care about how far behind Checo is as long as they get the 1-2. Can't keep being so much behind Charles and expect to keep that seat forever.
I am just not sure where Ferrari can put the junior in. Sauber is no longer an option, and Haas claims they do not want rookies. Even Charles was not in a Ferrari in his rookie season
>Bearman, Pourchaire, Shwartzman all are licking their chops thinking of that Ferrari 2nd seat everytime Sainz underperforms. Now maybe even Lewis and Lando from the current grid too.
Reading is hard apparently.
Also OP edited his message to look like he only mentioned Ferrari academy drivers, even though he said before that "None of those are better than Sainz currently"
The thing is though Checo is against the fastest guy in F1, and he's been really close to Max as of the current 2023 season thus far unlike Sainz who's way off the pace in both quali and race when compared to Leclerc
Yeah, no excuses really. Russell did screw him slightly, but Sainz should’ve been fast enough to save that extra set for Q3. He only has himself to blame for getting caught out on his only fresh set.
Why every time Carlos explains what went wrong everyone is saying 'excuses'? Are you guys that dumb or you are just bored? He literally says that he messed it up in the first sector lol.
Also please, show me one time were Carlos said 'I am better than Leclerc'.
Everyone thinks they are the best, or have potential to be the best, you can’t race any other way. These aren’t excuses, he’s telling he messed up in several places
Yeah, but after all the data he's got access to, I'm sure there's a tiny voice in the back of his head that lets him know the situation. Even a bit of awareness does the job.
It is confirmed they tried to pull of some sort of shitty political moves at Toro Rosso back in 2015 against Max. But that doesn't mean that has to be the case now at Ferrari, I wouldn't be so angry atleast, not for something that isn't confirmed.
Honestly, I do believe it might be true, but just might be. It's not a threat anyway to Charles, nothing can beat being ca 0,3 faster.
I wish the second Ferrari driver was an exciting prospect. This is just sad to watch. Gives me Bottas vibes.
Having someone like Lando would be great to watch beside Leclerc (or even Lewis lmao, although I'd expect him to implode because of Ferrari)
It's telling that in both years they were together, every single TP ranked Norris above Sainz in their driver rankings. Norris showed far more potential and he's only improved in the intervening years.
Norris closed the gap in both the years, meanwhile Sainz nearly peaked. You can't ignore how Norris stepped up his game since 2021 though. He's been a different driver.
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Very messy session for Sainz. Disappointingly he seems to have dropped back to where he was at the beginning of last year, not very quick and doesn't look comfortable in the car
At some point people need to accept he is not that quick as Leclerc I guess. Would be better for everyone.
It's not an issue that he's slower than LEC. It's that he's making mistakes while doing it and makes the problem worse. If he kept things together and was 2-3 tenths slower it would be fine. The problem is that carlos apparently thinks he can challenge charles if he pushes hard enough.
Everyone should have accepted this already. Charles is a top level driver, and there are only 4 or 5 that come under that bracket. If he can produce his form from the last 2/3 of last season over a season then he and Charles would make a very good partnership were Ferrari ever in a position to challenge for a WDC/WCC
Half a second behind Charles. That’s not a good look.
Number 2's tend to be slower than Number 1's. Carlos ain't in Charles's level, never was and never will be.
Absolutely. Although there is one thing Sainz is better than Leclerc....making up reasons for being slow behind Charles.
No. Sainz is better at knowing when to not follow Ferrari's stupid decisions.
Those things arent mutually exclusive. He is both for sure
we will see if ferrari puts him to his place this season. he cost Charles 1 race and 1 sprint win last year.
Will Santander allow that ?
Santander isn't that big of a sponsor as the things stand in current team.
Is literally the biggest sponsor, at the same level of Shell and VGW Play. You can see it on the Ferrari webpage. Bigger than AWS or Philip Morris Also, Estrella Galicia as tier 2 sponsor is linked to Sainz It wouldn’t be that far fetched to think that about 20% of sponsor money comes from Santander + Estrella (sponsors brought because Sainz being there). I’m all for giving priority to Charles if he is faster, and last year the team made stupid decisions sometimes giving Carlos more chances that he deserved, but I think Ferrari is eyeing that sponsor money and trying to balance things, not treat Sainz as a Checo
I genuinely don't think Ferrari desperately needs those sponsors because they are the goddamn Ferrari. They will have no where to hide if he keeps dunking on terrible performances. imho Sainz could be the worst driver Scuderia had in the past 20 years.
> imho Sainz could be the worst driver Scuderia had in the past 20 years. Lmao, what an idiotic thing to say.
Yep, ridiculous take.
Yeah, but I think some time ago they switched to the thinking of “if we can get more money, the better”. This team is not the Ferrari of Enzo or even the Ferrari of FIAT, is a publicly traded company with shareholders that expect growth and dividends. About 67% of Ferrari is traded, 23% Agnelli family and 10% Piero Ferrari. This new path of Ferrari begins on 2016 when the company started its new “standalone” journey, completing its separation from FIAT (FCA). So, I don’t think the Ferrari of today is a company that would say “we don’t need more money” or “we don’t care about sponsors money”. Now, first, they need to be profitable as in they don’t have anyone backing them (FIAT Group), and need to grow and generate the biggest profit possible so their shareholders are happy.
Is Santander Sainz's sponsor? Why did they sponsor Ferrari in 2017 pre-Sainz?
Santander started again sponsoring because Sainz is Spanish, it’s that simple. IDK if Sainz already started to film ads or being the face of Santander in Spain, but it’s usual there to make this kind of deal For example, Alonso in his Renault years was sponsored by Telefonica (biggest sponsor, you can see it on the 2005-2006 Renault car) and he was their “face” in ads About Santander in previous years, if I remember correctly, Santander sponsored Ferrari when Alonso was there, and because whatever reason (contracts?) stick around 1-2 more years after he left
Makes sense, probably contract length from Alonso's time.
He should be kicked off, he's mediocre
It's Leclerc, with a clean 1st sector he would have been like 3 tenths off him, that is no shame tbh.
He clearly has a bad weekend. At Bahrain he was 0.15 off. Also everyone says Leclerc is the best qualifier on the grid and then talks shit on sainz for being behind
I agree, just a small correction though, he was 0,3 behind Leclerc in last weekends quali. Leclerc just didn't do a 2nd q3 run.
Not a shame for a humble man, but Sainz just has that arrogance in his speech which triggered a lot of Ferrari over the past seasons. Such a gap won't go down well with the fanbase
You’re reaching with that arrogance statement
And I will be honest Ferrari does have a lot of clowns in their fanbase who overreact a lot.
Well I mean thats subjective, I perceive it like at. Arrogance masked as professional and pseudo humble statements. To be fair, english isn't my first language nor is it his, so ofc there are cultural differences and so on, but I don't perceive many drivers like that.
Arrogance? lmao
Also his family trying to stir up shit in the Ferrari garage when Leclerc is treated better than sainz
Can you share news reports (from reliable sources) where his family steered shit up? Also, can you respond to my question if you downvoted? When is he arrogant? He is literally saying 'I messed up in the first sector', idk what else do you expect the guy to do, cry and say Leclerc is unreachable?
[here is an article about the Ferrari pit crew not wanting to attends sainz win ](https://amp.focus.de/thema/formel-1/dicke-luft-bei-der-scuderia-ferrari-crew-plante-boykott-gegen-carlos-sainz_id_112504891.html) there is something foul. If you get deeper into it the more you learn. The most obvious is probably Oñoro Carlos who seems to be in the Ferrari box constantly.
\- Can I see an article of his family steering shit up? \- Sure, here is an article about the pit crew. Very good buddy
Hamilton was 4 tenths off Russell also
Come on Carlos, I like you but you have to step it up. Let’s hope you at least try to challenge Checo tomorrow
No way he’s challenging Checo… I think his race is with George, Lance, and Lewis. Fernando and even Max from 15 will be able to easily keep him off.
Never had the pace anyway. Charles is just a level above we've known that.
No one forced Carlos to waste two sets in Q2, had he not used the extra set he would've qualified outside of top 10. It's time to treat Carlos as what he is and always will be, a solid number 2. Hopefully Fred is more sensible than Binotto. If Charles survives the first lap and if his bad luck doesn't strike again, he will catch up to Sainz quite easily. And when he's behind Sainz, order Sainz to move over.
Bit harsh calling him a hard turd
Solid number 2? Solid 3.
I still can't get over the fact they fired Vettel for this guy. He is objectively worse in every aspect. He was a fine driver at McLaren, but he is not fit to be a Ferrari driver fighting for championships. Leclerc has embarrassed him the last 2 seasons.
Didn't Sainz outscore Leclerc in 2021?
Leclerc had 2 DNF in races where he would realistically get second and maybe hope for a win. If he gets 2 2nd places there I think he would've end up above Perez.
Yes but Sainz finished above Leclerc regardless. You can't call that Leclerc embarrassed Sainz in both 2021 and 2022.
I can and I will. Sainz’s race pace vs Leclerc in 2021 was embarrassing. Just because he got rewarded with podiums when he crashed in quali while Leclerc was punished with DNS does not make his 2021 season better than Leclerc’s. In quali, H2H and race pace, Leclerc absolutely owned him in 2021.
No if else or buts, if you have more points you did better. If hypothetically Hamilton beats Max on last race in 2021, it is embarrassing if you make this same argument and say Max absolutely owned Hamilton because Max's pace is overall better, but got punished by some DNFs such as Silverstone and Baku.
Disagree. If Ham beat Ver at AD 2021, I would not say that he did not deserve the WDC, but yes, I would say that Max outperformed him over the entire season. Charles ***absolutely*** outperformed Carlos over the 2021 season. That is not in dispute at all. It's not even just race pace. But in every way aside from luck, Charles was superior to Carlos in 2021 - head to head in race, qualifying, front row starts, just absolutely everywhere.
Leclerc performed better overall because he is better driver overall, but in no world did Leclerc embarrassed Sainz that year, or even in 2022. If what Leclerc did in 21 and 22 embarrassed Sainz, then what Perez did is sackable offence because he's even further behind Max.
what? No it’s not. If Hamilton won Abu Dhabi any right in the head fan would’ve realizes the better driver lost. Same with Sainz and Leclerc. Everyone realizes Leclerc destroyed Sainz
So is ocon better than alonso last year? Points isnt everything if you dont know the context. Other than points. Leclerc won every head2head he had with sainz in 2021
I'm not sure I'd say he deserved to win in Monaco as he crashed out of quali. He either doesn't start or he has a gearbox penalty and starts not on pole. He did however deserve Silverstone and would have won it if not for engine issues.
Explain how Leclerc "embarrassed him" in 2021 please? He did what he could with that relatively shit car and helped get Ferrari to P3 in the constructors. Now, fighting for championship wins is a slightly different story.
Leclerc was consistently faster in almost every Q3 session, had superior race pace and better tyre management. Sainz ended up ahead in the points simply because Leclerc was unlucky. Sainz was never impressive in his last 2 years at Ferrari. Consistency kinda saved him in 2021, but 2022 showed he is very mediocre overall.
“embarrassed him” is still a huge overstatement with regards to 2021. Does it paint a somewhat misleading picture that Sainz outscored Leclerc? Of course it does but Sainz still had a very good year that year. As he did in his two years at McLaren. He’s not as fast as Leclerc but that doesn’t make him a mediocre driver, that’s a ridiculous thing to say.
guys the gaps were under 0.15 seconds iirc. Sainz benefitted from the stable rear end, which wasn't present in 2022 until mid way (which coincidentally saw the gap drop again to around 0.15-0.2 seconds). He is slower than charles, but not by much. It's clearly a stability/confidence issue in the car. We gave Vettel the same excuse for 4 years at Ferrari against geriatric Kimi. Who knows how well Sainz would've done then, when he was considered a top 5-6 talent on the grid from 2019 to 2021.
Neither can I even though I felt Vettel was making quite a few slip ups. Yeah it’s just regular Ferrari suffering. They don’t seem to have anyone coming up from the junior ranks either.
Vettel didn't had the heart to drive for Ferrari anymore and it looks like Binotto played a big part in it. There was something going on inside Ferrari during 2019 and 2020. Maybe Binotto thought Vettel was the problem, but 2022 showed it was much more than that. I'm glad Vettel moved to AM and showed he can still drive, these clowns at Ferrari management are sabotaging themselves. And it looks like Binotto followed their path. Maybe Vasseur can improve the team, he is a more appropriate person for the role of TP than an engineer.
Vettel should be praised to even come reasonably close to battling goat combination of Hamilton and Mercedes, not being bashed for eventually losing to Hamilton and Mercedes. A driver making mistakes here and there is a natural thing to happen. Put anyone else on Vettel's position in 17/18 they will probably be further behind Hamilton.
Vettel was quite good in those years, the slip ups i mentioned was mostly 2020 where he was up against Leclerc. 2020 was the year why he was dropped.
Well, everyone had poor year here and there.
? Wym they don’t have anyone coming up…..bearman is literally in f2 and moreover most current drivers would jump at the chance to sign if Ferrari wanted to replace Carlos
I don’t even like the guy that much but people are overdoing it with the criticism. He’s not on charles’ level and that’s ok.
It IS perfectly fine. But what I don't like is how ferrari give in when he get outspoken on the radio like he is the no.1. Example: British grand prix - ferrari should have swapped them ages ago but sainz kept suggesting to stay ahead and that he will go faster
That's bound to change. Binotto's management was very passive. He didn't want to choose a clear number one. This year's different. I can totally see them favoring Leclerc more.
there is no point in picking one this year. they are not fighting for the championship. it was supposed to be last year the moment RB pulled team orders in Spain. They didn't and paid for it.
You still need to be quick with decisions for maximum points which we weren't last year.
British GP isn't Sainz's fault that Leclerc didn't pit. Sainz knew Ferrari's strategy was stupid and decided to say stop inventing.
Ferrari had the wrong strategy that day and he was 100% correct in arguing against it. That the narrative has turned into him doing that to sabotage Leclerc makes no sense. It was Ferrari that fucked up Leclerc’s race, not Sainz.
He is talking about the middle of the races when Sainz was 1st but slower than Leclerc and was holding him up. He was begging for more laps iirc and saying shit like it doesen't change anything who's ahead because the drs would give back the time lost in the dirty air. After the swap he kept up for a couple laps and then started losing time when he was asked to save fuel.
people wouldn't mid him if he actually gave us anything to be proud of, even perez has AB21 for RB fans to love him for, sainz has no great races for us and everyytime we need him to perform he drops the biggest pile of dogshit.
And then his family blames Ferrari and Charles
Really? Could you give your source for that? Not some made up feelz.
If anything Charles should learn from Carlos and sometimes be more assertive on the radio because Ferrari can’t always be trusted with their own strategy calls. Just look at last season’s British Grand Prix for example. Charles could’ve still won if they pitted him immediately for softs as he was already in the lead when the safety car came out. But somehow Ferrari were unable to make that decision for him within the 4-5 seconds he had before he went past the pit entry. Sure it’s only a few seconds to react but considering the situation in the race it was a no-brainer to tell him to pit immediately. Instead they either panicked or somehow decided to split the strategy because they stupidly thought that staying out on used hards for a sprint near the end is as good as having new softs on.
Sainz's ability to not follow shitty strategy is actually necessary skill to master.
Charles asked if he can pit but Xavi told him pit is closed, thats why u see him slow down near the pit entrance before going. It was afaik open tho so bad communication. But if Charles pitted and it was indeed close he wouldve been penalized so he cant do anything about it.
Thanks for mentioning that I wasn’t aware of what the radio communications were like. I don’t fault Charles for being more assertive on radio I just think he needs that sometimes to counteract Ferrari’s own mistakes. Looking aside from Silverstone, Carlos also argued against the strategists in Monaco, and his own insistence on staying out on the wets ended up being a better strategy in track position than what Ferrari gave Charles. I do think Charles said they were working on fixing their mistakes after Hungary last season and I’ve noticed that his engineer seeks his input more often on the radio so hopefully these strategic mistakes can be rectified.
Him counteracting monaco was the reason they lost tho. Had he pitted to cover checo, he wouldve still be infront of him and maybe net p1. The winning strategy was Checo's inter to slicks, not the wet to slicks. Charles had 5 seconds to sainz who had 2 seconds to checo, had he covered Checo, he had a 2second gap to initially cover him, he didnt and Ferrari made Charles do the covering because checo was too fast. Being on inters was also the reason they botched the pitstop and made them double pit. Ferrari didnt anticipate Charles being so fast in the inters that they couldnt doublestack them, had they let charles go for another lap, he wouldve been ahead of Sainz because the track was wet enough for the inters to work. And charles was also saying he wanted to go to slicks from the wets. You just didnt hear it from the main feed.
Yeah without all the access to their onboards and radio I can only judge what I see and hear from the main feed. When exactly did Ferrari tell Carlos to pit for inters? If it was after Checo already pitted for inters then it would’ve been too late to cover the undercut anyways so I feel staying out on wets would’ve been better. And even if Charles also asked for wets, he eventually listened to the team anyways while Carlos was able to overrule them. So I still think it goes back to my point that Charles can try to be more assertive in certain situations. It’s really unfortunate for him to have to put up with it but for his own benefit I feel he needs to trust his own instincts more instead of relenting to whatever Ferrari say.
I think some of the criticism (atleast for me) comes because of his camp. The cousin, and the father constantly hyping him up against Charles + the spanish media. Lando was in a similar situation before racing Ricciardo, with a lot of hype from the British media. But he went ahead and proved himself, and he's got overwhelming support from most fans.
Every driver’s own national media is going to be biased in their favor. We see Sky constantly hype up Mercedes and the Dutch media openly cheer for Max too. Same goes for the closest ppl around the driver himself. Don’t see why that has to be a reason for anyone to dislike Carlos. Of course he’d want an opportunity to prove himself in a front running car, and Ferrari gave that to him. The order naturally sorts itself over time if Carlos is constantly slower than Charles so it’s no big deal. If people want to blame anyone here then I guess blame Ferrari upper management which is probably Binotto for bringing Carlos in. But even if Binotto decided to keep Seb I doubt Seb would be happy settling as the second driver behind Charles. Him and Charles could possibly continue to clash on track just like we saw a few times in 2019. So I really don’t see that alternative being any better for Charles himself. The only issue Charles needs to deal with is making sure Ferrari build him a good enough car to compete for the championship with and make sure they are sharp enough to avoid operational mistakes like they did last season.
Marca hyping up Sainz as the number one driver after Bahrain was peak comedy.
You mean his family likes him more than Charles? Damn that's crazy, who would've thought.
I don't see Charles' entourage stirring things up in the garage, now do i? But I can always bet to see someone from Sainz's camp to be right there. And on DTS. and in the media. Very different approaches.
Yeah, that’s understandable. I will enjoy Charles humbling him I’m not gonna lie.
honestly everyone's so reactive , watch sainz qualify better the next race and everyone would be like vamos !! or something
Yup, last week everyone was quiet and now everyone crawls out their caves. He clearly has bad weekend and considering Charles is the best qualifier on the grid, its fair to be 2, 3 tenths off
I’m in the same boat and I’m someone who REALLY doesn’t care for Sainz lmao
It is only because some people claim (without solid sources) that Sainz Sr is politic against Leclerc. So thats why. Meanwhile they forget that Charles also has strong political background.
Helmut Marko was the first one to call the Sainz family out on that and thats one strong source. You can think of Marko whatever you want, but he was never bullshitting around such topics. Also internal Ferrari sources seem to have the same opinion in that regard. You won't get more "evidence" than that in F1. By the way it isn't Sainz Sr alone. Its the senior, Carlos and his cousin.
So Carlos, Carlos and Carlos?
If he accepts that it won’t be a problem. But he brings a lot of sponsors which demands equal driver status. That is what triggers lot of people
Literally no evidence of any kind to back this up other than conspiracy theories. Santander doesn't give a shit about Carlos and Estrella Galicia is a **minor** sponsor. Blame Ferrari racing operations if you want, but this has always been nonsense.
The amount of hoops these toxic fans go through to blame Sainz just because ferrari's race operations are shit is unbelievable.
You say like you work for the team. Not everything has to be simple or complicated, there is a chance either of the statements could be true. But we have Marko's statements to support Sainz's political influence.
He's usually like 2 tenths off Charles I'm not concerned - everyone has a bad session occasionally. If he was consistently half a second off like Danny Ric than there would be a problem but it's not even close to that point yet
I think it'll look worse this year, compared to last, because the field is MUCH closer (except RB). Aston stepped up, and so did Merc (They were out in Q2 last year this time). Every tenth counts.
words followed by other words that fail to create any possible excuse for his teammate dunking half a second on his head
Bad luck and the bad strategy calls went to Charles last year, I hate that. Hopefully Fred does better and realizes he needs to make Charles the priority. I'm so tired of Sainz' excuses and his team.
Sainz had way more bad luck last year
Amm...no.
In what way, exactly?
4 dnfs, 3 tyres at pitstop, 5+ second pitstops, same shit strategy as leclerc,...
Yes, same shit strat yet Leclerc had 3 DNFs while leading (2 completely on team). Got taken victories in Silverstone, Monaco and Hungary and each of these went to Sainz direction even if he was miles of... Sainz was nowhere near Leclerc last season, he started even worse this one.
> Same shit strategy as Leclerc When has been Sainz robbed off a race win on pure pace? Three times, might i add. > 4 DNFS Assuming you are excluding his 2 mechanical failures (Same as Leclerc), i'll agree on that. > 5 second pitstops A Ferrari classic. Nothing surprising here > 3 wheels on pitstops Leclerc was left with inters on dry.
4 times, I actually think Charles wins Brazil is he allowed to have a normal quali
He’s always got excuses when he’s slower than Charles. He only says “I did good finally” when Charles has a mistake or bad luck.
Carlos will have to up the politicking at ferrari to be considered no.1 there
if he doesn't improve and gives stinkers one after another, it's not out of the realm that he would be bought out of contract. Italian media, his politicking pissing off people in team and him being former management's hire all go against him in Ferrari at the moment. Only thing he can do is to perform on track.
Who do you think they could replace him with, that would be willing to be Charles' wingman?
This is Ferrari, they don't necessarily need a wingman, they needs someone who is not mid. Grid is full of talent.
I think that Bottas might be perfect.
I could see them looking at Lando to take that seat over if they were to move away from Carlos
Yes, we know Charles is much faster than Sainz. He needs to accept his role as #2, and it will be fine.
Bearman, Pourchaire, Shwartzman all are licking their chops thinking of that Ferrari 2nd seat everytime Sainz underperforms. Now maybe even Lewis and Lando from the current grid too. It's a seat in one of the Big 3 Carlos, and you don't have the luxury of RB19 so much so that the management doesn't care about how far behind Checo is as long as they get the 1-2. Can't keep being so much behind Charles and expect to keep that seat forever.
I am just not sure where Ferrari can put the junior in. Sauber is no longer an option, and Haas claims they do not want rookies. Even Charles was not in a Ferrari in his rookie season
I'm sure ferrari can convince haas to take a rookie if they really want. But first, they need to actually have a generational talent
Shwartzman 🤣🤣🤣
None of the Ferrari academists are better than Sainz currently.
Really? Lewis and Lando aren't?
TIL Lando and Lewis are from the Ferrari Academy
>Bearman, Pourchaire, Shwartzman all are licking their chops thinking of that Ferrari 2nd seat everytime Sainz underperforms. Now maybe even Lewis and Lando from the current grid too. Reading is hard apparently. Also OP edited his message to look like he only mentioned Ferrari academy drivers, even though he said before that "None of those are better than Sainz currently"
For you maybe. The guy said none of the ferrari academists
Ok.
https://i.imgur.com/DIWs5Me.png I got you, u/swapan_99
Lol thanks man. Weird how unlike YouTube Reddit never puts an (edited) sign on comments.
😆
The thing is though Checo is against the fastest guy in F1, and he's been really close to Max as of the current 2023 season thus far unlike Sainz who's way off the pace in both quali and race when compared to Leclerc
I've defend Sainz last season but he really needs to step up this year. If he continues to be so off pace his Ferrari career is finished
Everytime there is an excuse.. when was the last time he was good in Qualifying?
Yeah, no excuses really. Russell did screw him slightly, but Sainz should’ve been fast enough to save that extra set for Q3. He only has himself to blame for getting caught out on his only fresh set.
Lads, It's Sainz.
I've defended Sainz last season but he really needs to step up this year. If he continues to be so off pace his Ferrari career is finished
And tomorrow: what pace?
always just excuses, this guy claims he's better than Charles :-)
Why every time Carlos explains what went wrong everyone is saying 'excuses'? Are you guys that dumb or you are just bored? He literally says that he messed it up in the first sector lol. Also please, show me one time were Carlos said 'I am better than Leclerc'.
I agree with you and I support Carlos. Hope he can pull it together tomorrow!
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I"m so mad I can't even type straight.....
He has never claimed that - stop inventing.
Everyone thinks they are the best, or have potential to be the best, you can’t race any other way. These aren’t excuses, he’s telling he messed up in several places
Yeah, but after all the data he's got access to, I'm sure there's a tiny voice in the back of his head that lets him know the situation. Even a bit of awareness does the job.
how is saying "I made a mistake" an excuse? He has never said he is better than Charles btw, just that he wants to win
I don’t think he does, to be fair
Calling it, Carlos will not finish top 5 tomorrow
top 5 will be max, checo, leclerc alonso rusel
Lmao no wonder he didn't stay in RB for long, let's see how long him and his family can manage the politics here in Ferrari.
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Are the rumours about Sainz and his entourage playing politics actually true?
His entourage is known for playing political games. So, there's definitely an element of truth to that.
Helmut Marko called it out in Toro Rosso, and Helmut is many things, but he shoots straight arrows.
It is confirmed they tried to pull of some sort of shitty political moves at Toro Rosso back in 2015 against Max. But that doesn't mean that has to be the case now at Ferrari, I wouldn't be so angry atleast, not for something that isn't confirmed. Honestly, I do believe it might be true, but just might be. It's not a threat anyway to Charles, nothing can beat being ca 0,3 faster.
I wish the second Ferrari driver was an exciting prospect. This is just sad to watch. Gives me Bottas vibes. Having someone like Lando would be great to watch beside Leclerc (or even Lewis lmao, although I'd expect him to implode because of Ferrari)
Considering he was better than Norris, i doubt anything would change.
It's telling that in both years they were together, every single TP ranked Norris above Sainz in their driver rankings. Norris showed far more potential and he's only improved in the intervening years.
better than a rookie norris by like 4 points, there is a whole 5 years age gap between them.
He beat him 2 years in a row.
Norris closed the gap in both the years, meanwhile Sainz nearly peaked. You can't ignore how Norris stepped up his game since 2021 though. He's been a different driver.
Sainz was much quicker, the point differences don't tell the whole story
norris was 20/21 while sainz was 26 in like his 5th year in f1 idk why people think a rookie should beat a driver entering his prime years.
Carlos Excusez, ladies and gentlemen.
Worst Ferrari driver since Badoer. Fucking patheric man