By - South-Wolverine-1912
The Franco-Franco border basically.
Its funny that the nationalistic dictator of Spain had the name Frenchy French.
A sad element of Spanish history that isn't spoken about enough in Europe.
Is the *benefit* of being allied of the US since the 50s while being on a dictadure, some things are *washed* but dont worry, we have a constant carpet bombing about how bad the dictadure was and this incident and the Blue Division incident wasnt washed from out history classes.
Our school in Germany had teachers and children who escaped from the Pinochet regime. It was mentioned once and only because one of my classmates was one of them.
At the time the very influential PM of Bavaria, Franz Josef Strauß, was a buddy of Pinochet, which made it a very delicate political issue, not to be officially discussed in schools.
Would really you expect much there to be enough time in german schools to talk about people like Pinochet?
Back when I was in school we really just spend most of our time for modern history on nazi related topics. And thats with electing history classes all the way until Abitur. We barely even had any time to discuss the cold war, so im not sure where there would even be time to talk about dictatorships that are pretty far away.
Remember that Obama refused to apologize for US's involvement in Picochet rise.
Nor does it explain much how the rest of the European governments abandoned a democratic regime that was fighting a fascist coup d'état and how the Spanish were the first international victims of the Nazi weapons that came to try out here in support of Franco, and how the Spaniards who tried to take refuge in France were locked up in internment camps where many died of malnutrition, disease or were tortured and killed
Or how the first "french resistance" were spaniards and poles who knew they were going to be executed if handed of to the nazis by Vichy France .
Not just that. We then spent decades in a fucking dictatorship and no country bat an eye. Rich Europeans came to Spain ON HOLIDAYS because we have nice beaches, not caring at all about the dictatorship, just about getting a tan.
Lol no Spain was considered a real backwater here that no one wanted to visit. Also Spain in 2022 breaks international laws on human rights, and if that is your standard for judging people then I will hereby judge all Spaniards for paying taxes to a regime that does that.
>Lol no Spain was considered a real backwater here that no one wanted to visit.
We were one of the countries that received more tourist during the 60-70s but OK.
>Also Spain in 2022 breaks international laws on human rights, and if that is your standard for judging people then I will hereby judge all Spaniards for paying taxes to a regime that does that.
LOL what? Are you 12? Amazing logic. First: I don't know what international law is breaking (can you point me to the especific law? Only Spain?), but you must be braindead to judge Spaniards for paying MANDATORY TAXES PER RISK OF GOING TO PRISON that are directly deductible from their savings. Really. I don't even know why I'm even answering to such a clown.
Ley de Amnistía grants impunity to war criminals and have done so since the 1970's democratic reform. Granting war criminals impunity is against international law on human rights set forth by the UN.
Also a reminder that you have a literal fascist monument hosted by your state, Valle de los Caídos.
You are free to move away and it is not in the least difficult as an EU citizen. Live up to your own standards for other people maybe? Also you could drop your little radical cunty attitude. Read and learn before moaning.
''You should move' LOL Bye, clown.
No one cared because the Spanish supported it.
The fascist regime supported it, doesn't mean the common Spaniard did.
Or when they did, for the money, I'm sure at least some (most adults I know) believed tourists from the North were sick bastards for not caring at all.
I feel the same about people vacationing in Dubai, for sure.
The "Republican" Government was barely a democracy to put it generously. Attempted coups and political violence were rife. No one in power had an interest in democracy at the time.
If Germany can be forced to forever be shunned for Hitler, why can't Spain be constantly shunned for Cortez, Franco or Pizarro?
Because what we had with Franco was a civil war. We didn't invade countries and we only killed our own people.
And Cortez and Pizarro? Really? You're comparing something like the Holocaust where victims are still alive today with something that happened 500 before?
God, Germans are something else.
Congratulations, every single Spanish person is an idiot, just because you are.
I hope you're a teen because your answers and conclusions don't make any sense.
First of all, Germans aren't shunned. For God's sake, during the crisis, fucking Merkel was for sure the most powerful polititian in Europe, and her relation with the European troika destroyed most South European countries.
How can Germans we shunned when they still the most powerful country in the EU?
And btw, I wasn't saying Germans deserve to be shunned or whatever, just that Franco and Hitler are very different dictators as per the consequences they had in Europe. Franco killed his own people, our dictatorship didn't directly impact other countries.
Maybe you should calm yourself and not read into it so much. Just to state that Germans as a whole are something else to a random person on internet just because you don’t agree with their comment is hilarious. Funniest thing with your essay is that I don’t even agree with the original comment.
God. I should have written 'some Germans are something else'. Sorry.
It's a way of talking, I'm sure most of us have said something similar before, most Europeans I read on Reddit have a 'americans are' in their post history. And I'm sure we all know we aren't talking about all Americans. This is like having a #notallmen argument.
God, now it’s #notallmen? You women are something else, god
And 100 years from now there will be no Holocaust survivor alive and Holocaust will be viewed in the same way you view Spanish treatment of Natives.
You don't know anything about how I view Spanish treatment of Natives.
I just said that you can punish a country for what happened 500 years before.
Portugal and Spain finessed the Nazi regime by staying neutral while being friendly at best with them, which made Hitler focus on the Eastern side of the war and not in a invasion of Spain and Portugal.
Had Hitler invaded Spain and Portugal first, WW2 could have taken a whole different turn.
So it wasn't that bad in the end, it actually might have had an impact on how the war developed.
Doesn't Portugal sold a shit ton of tungsten to Nazi Germany, getting in return looted gold as payment?
Do you know where it was exactly ? I'd guess somewhere like Irun/ Hendaye ?
>After the occupation of France, a German and a Spanish general greet each other on the Hendaye-Irún International Bridge on the Franco-Spanish border.
[Source for OPs pic](https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en-US/noartistknown/greeting-at-the-french-spanish-border-1940-b-w-photo/photograph/asset/7138626)
OP themselves is a karma farming submission bot so I'm answering on their behalf.
i am not a bot.
I am 99.942069% sure that notabot175 is not a bot.
^(I am not a neural network being trained to detect spammers | Don't summon me with !isbot |) ^(/r/spambotdetector |) [^(Optout)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ) ^(|) [^(Original Github)](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ)
Yeah you would say that, wouldn't you?
That sounds like something a bot would say.
Hendaye, Hitler never put a foot on Spain, although Himmler did in 1940.
I detect some schadenfreude by the Spanish that the country that [invaded and occupied Spain](https://www.andalucia.com/history/french-occupation) and put a Bonaparte on the throne in the 1808 Peninsular War, has now been taken over by its neighbor invaded and occupied.
Probably less schadenfreude and more the whole thing with extensive german support during the civil war making them allies.
With allies like that, you'll fight your wars alone.
I'm sorry if I'm wrong but your sentence implies that Spain allied itself with the Nazis. The Nazis supported the coup plotters who violently imposed a fascist regime, not the democratic government which only had the help of volunteers from all over Europe
Oh, yeah. There totally weren't any links to the USSR, comrade
The Spanish Civil War was a complete shitshow all around
Except one side was a democratic government and the other side were fascists allied with the Nazis so there was definitely a good guy
The enemy of your enemy does not have to be your friend. Don't blindly believe Russian propaganda that say their allies were somehow good people
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Málaga-Almería road massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%A1laga%E2%80%93Almer%C3%ADa_road_massacre)
Not only were the Nationalists significantly more brutal and bloodthirsty than the Republicans, they were also fascists whose allies were Nazi Germany fighting against a democratic government, there is definitely a good guy in the Spanish Civil War
I'm not the one here defending any sides, buddy
One was a democratic regime, the other a fascist militar coup, you fucking moron.
Of course people were killed in both sides, but ones where defending democracy and the others were fascist supporters that should have rotten in prison.
Go fuck yourself, you fascist apologist.
I didn't say you were?
Resisting Napoleon was a mistake, so many lives lost just to get Fernando VII in power.
People forget how much of an asshole Fernando VII was. And he was a really big asshole.
And Napoleon brought back slavery.
History is not black and white. One man's hero is another man's villain.
If you are cynical then every historical political leader was a big asshole. The real life is not LOTR.
But Fernando VII really was an asshole. He tried to coup his father, abolished the Constitution, suppressed, exiled and executed liberals and intellectuals (even those who fought for him) and lost the continental American colonies. A pretty rounded villain, if you ask me.
And from British point of view, George Washington was a villain.
What is good and what is evil is subjective, not objective. NIetzsche figured it out long before you were conceived.
Is it fair to punish innocent Russians for what Putin does?
> And from British point of view, George Washington was a villain.
I think you are going to be hard pressed to find someone who likes Fernando VII.
> Is it fair to punish innocent Russians for what Putin does?
Don't know what does have to do with my comment, but no, I don't think so. However, it is fair to say that Putin is an asshole.
I have many friends in Spain who like Fernando VII and think he was a good guy.
Your argument is invalid.
> I have many friends in Spain who like Fernando VII and think he was a good guy.
I find that hard to believe, unless they are absolutists, Latin Americans (they got their independence thanks to him, after all) or just don't know history. What do they like about him?
> Your argument is invalid.
My argument was that he really was a bad person and ruler. That some people (presumably) like him does not make him a better person, it just speaks badly of his supporters.
I belive that there is nothing wrong with being bad.
Plenty of bad people achieved success.
Really hard to believe. I’ve never seen someone, in my life, say “That Fernando VII, what a nice guy”. Even absolutists were pissed of at him because he ended up giving the throne to her daughter (starting the carlism)
Ideal outcome would have been to keep Joseph as king but ruling in accordance to the 1812 Constitution instead of the Bayonne Statute.
At least we fought until the end.
I've been told that basque republicans surrendered to national navarrans pretty quickly
I know, truly pathetic, even more cowards than the Italians. We got the requetés to make up for.
With the help of international brigades. The only country who ever sent a helping unit of volunteers to France was Italy in 1871 with Garibaldi ending up commanding the Vosges Army for the IIIrd Republic
Spain single-handedly caused the ruin of Napoleon, eroding its elite troops. What Spaniards will never forgive is the stabbing in the back (because an obvious invasion would have been met with the full force of the colonial power).
Elite troops? Are you sure about that? What I recall is the contrary and probably some troops were transferred for the russia campaign
I'm spanish btw
Lol no. Russian campaign was a biggest failure, and the peninsula war was won thanks to the brittish.
Another spanish naZionalist detected. Without the Russian disaster, Napoleon troops would have wiped out all the Spanish resistance.
Britain was overall winning the Peninsular War even without the Russian disaster which put a nail in the coffin. Napoleon couldn't afford to send more troops to Spain because the rest of Europe was prepared to declare war again the moment they sensed weakness.
Spain during the revolutionary wars sided against France and with the agressors. So why would they be revengeful about that when they were part of the agressors?
The revolutionary wars ended in 1802, France invaded and occupied Spain in 1808 in the **Peninsular War**.
Ofc, but the Peninsular war didn't happen in isolation just like that, it was in part a consequence of Spain's involvement in the revolutionary wars when it sided with a plethora of other nations to wage war against France.
Either way this photo is just two allied states celebrating a victory over an old common enemy. Obviously both being facists aswell, but I guess for many people here, beating France is the only thing that matters than what they represented.
the Roman salute was only made mandatory in the military after the July '44 assasination attempt by Stauffenberg on Hitler. Until then it was quite en vogue for Wehrmacht soldiers to use their traditional military salute to distance themselves from the ideological part of the 3^rd Reich because the German officer corps had a hundreds of year strong history, much stronger than the nazi party's made up stuff. They also saw the nazis as a threat to the army because nazis pushed for paramiliaries like the SS which of course diverted resources from the military. Not just recruits but also production capacity for tanks and so on.
Mostly just SS, SA and other nazi party members and Hitler fanboys used the Roman/Nazi party salute back when it was not mandatory.
> Until then it was quite en vogue for Wehrmacht soldiers to use their traditional military salute to distance themselves from the ideological part of the 3rd Reich because the German officer corps had a hundreds of year strong history, much stronger than the nazi party's made up stuff.
An example of this (usually from old Prussian aristocracy) would be general von Saucken who regularly wore both a sword and a monocle, and despised the brown mob as he and others of his class called it.
From Wikipedia: When he was ordered to take command of the Second Army on 12 March 1945, he came to Hitler's headquarters with his left hand resting casually on his cavalry sabre, his monocle in his eye, . . . [and then] gave a military salute and gave a slight bow. These were three 'outrages' at once. He had not given the Nazi salute with raised arm and the words 'Heil Hitler', as had been regulation since 20 July 1944, he had not surrendered his weapon on entering....and had kept his monocle in his eye when saluting Hitler.
When Hitler told him that he must take his orders from Albert Forster, the Gauleiter (Nazi governor, or "District Leader") of Danzig, Saucken returned Hitler's gaze....and striking the marble slab of the map table with the flat of his hand, he said, 'I have no intention, Herr Hitler, of placing myself under the orders of a Gauleiter'. In doing this he had bluntly contradicted Hitler and not addressed him as Mein Führer.
To the surprise of everyone who was present, Hitler capitulated and replied, "All right, Saucken, keep the command yourself." Hitler dismissed the General without shaking his hand and Saucken left the room with only the merest hint of a bow.
this was one of the reasons why Hitler despised the old class of generals
> none of them is giving the fascist/hitler salute in this picture
^the ^picture ^where ^they ^dance ^the ^Funky ^Chicken ^got ^censored
Why not call them Germans?
Or call the Spanish officer Francoist.
People get mad when WWII soldiers are referred to as “German” because they think people are dodging the Nazi label. Others get mad when they are referred to as “Nazis” because they feel like Germany is trying to disassociate itself from the Nazi era.
Properly, it should probably be “Nazi German forces,” but now we’re in danger of creating a word salad.
Basically, I don’t think anyone meant harm by calling them Nazis, so its fine to cut them some slack.
I'm German and in a German documentary they would be named as "Wehrmacht soldiers". Calling them simply Nazis would be factually wrong since there's no causality between being a Wehrmacht member and being a Nazi party member. Calling them Germans would indeed often be right but there were soo many nationalities inside the German army at the time. If you look at SS, it's even more extreme, with some units being majority non-German. Historians go really deep into this on a unit by unit basis. But I guess for non-Germans those distinctions are all not too relevant. I still cringe when (presumably Americans) say stuff like "Nazi tank". When Bush Jr. invaded Iraq no one said republican tanks. Everyone said American tanks. Nazi is not a country name, it's a party name.
I appreciate the insight! American (and I would assume other) historians use "Wehrmacht" for the same reasons, but people who haven't studied the WWII period usually aren't going to know or remember what that means.
Popularly though, I think "Nazi" and "1930s/40s Germany" are essentially synonymous to most Americans. Quite unfair to the Germans who objected to the Nazis, but you're right that the distinctions don't matter very much to people who don't have to deal with the history of it.
In regards to Americans knowing the country only as Nazi Germany:
I once had a similar discussion on Reddit about this in regards to cold war Germany. We found that in Germany, the cold war countries were called the Federal Republic of Germany and the German Democratic Republic, but Americans knew the countries as West Germany and East Germany and even today think that this were the country names. One former US soldier even responded that he had an official medal from the army for his time in "West Germany". Funny how that stuff is simplified
Because they may have been Austrians.
Or even West Ukrainians/Czech.
This is before the invasion of the USSR, were there west Ukrainians in the Wehrmacht at that time?
Carpatho-Ukrainians from Hungary?
But wouldn't they still serve in the Hungarian army if conscripted?
The only Czech military force in German occupied Czechoslovakia was Goverment Army, which was sort of an internal police and never saw fighting
So no. IIRC u had to be German-Czech/Czech-German if you actually volunatrily wanted to join the german army and even that had stipulations
Austrians are still Germans. Just because they ended up living under a different political entity, doesn't negate them being the same people. Same as claiming the speakers of Meänkieli in northern Sweden aren't Finnish. The distinction is political, not ethnographical.
I welcome you to explain this logic in person to some drunk Balkanites, after their football team lost a match to a neighboring country of Balkanites that speak the same language as them with a funny accent.
On the same logic, Ukrainians are still [Malorussians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Russia), not sure what the OP was on about.
At least Portuguese and Spanish dictators were reasonable enough not to trust Hitler's rants about winning the war.
Hitler could be a great con man or Ponzi schemer, compared to a politician and statesman.
Funny that both countries got to stay dictatorships just because they didn’t get involved in WWII
Funny maybe to you. The dictatorship left deep wounds in Portugal, at least.
Not a single person in my family even got a college degree (other than me) and my grandparents didn't even learn how to read or write. They had to start working at 8 yo. In fact, practically no one has a secondary education (most people just have the 9th grade). Salazar was against educating the population.
Portugal's not youth are all super uneducated which leads to our current economic situation compared to other EU countries. Being the western-eastern European country isn't funny at all.
Whilst other countries were enjoying democracy and economic development, Portuguese people were doing menial work and getting shipped off to the African colonies to die in senseless wars.
In fact, at least in France, Portuguese people tend to be seen as cleaning ladies or construction workers because that's the only thing the uneducated emigrants could do when the big emigration waves happened.
The English word “Funny” is not always used in the term “ha ha ha” or humorous. In this case I meant it more like the word “strange” or “weird”.
Apologies for the confusion.
No worries! I knew that. It's actually the same way in portuguese. I just wanted an excuse to talk about the topic tbh :P
Well it’s worthwhile to hear. I know a tiny bit about Francoist Spain but absolutely nothing about the Estado Novo, other than its name and what you just told me
Correction: Did not join the Axis in WW2.
Stalin was a major WW2 dictator and stayed in power until his death from natural causes.
Franco was a ruthless dictator who deserved the worst, but contrary to Hitler, he was a general (and sadly, quite a good one. He became the youngest Spanish general at age 33), he understood war.
In a weird twist, I regard Franco more similar to Stalin than Hitler. A shrewd and ruthless dictator, not a dreaming dictator on drugs.
As a general, Franco was daring to be honest. He volunteered to fight in Africa, where he rose the ranks quickly, at a very young age. His military skills were maybe better than other Spanish generals, but 1910's Spanish military education had been lagging behind.
Note: Understanding war better than Hitler did was a very low limit. In 1945, Hitler appointed Himmler to lead an Army Group facing Zhukov himself. As expected, Zhukov easily won those engagements.
\>>Nazi and Spanish officers shaking hands at the Franco -Spanish border<<
Looks like relations beetwen this Nazi Nation and Spain were cordial at that time.
Well both of them were a dictatorship with close ideology. The tittle is a bit misleading, It should say Nazi and Francoist officers or German and Spanish officers.
Fuck 'em both!
No. More. nazi. children.
Why is it so hard for some people *not* to fuck Nazis?
Funniest German joke.
and yet it’s sad how conservatism in the Army leads to the fact that the most powerful army on the planet at that time was preparing for a war 20 years ago.
They aren’t talking about conservatism in the political sense, but military sense. They are right largely, the French army was preparing to fight ww1 2.0, and not the much more mobile war ww2 would turn out to be.
Conservatives when they forgot the actual meaning of "conservativism" and think it just means "whiny bigotry" lol
Just to confirm, is Franco dead?
Died in the 70s, democracy got introduced about a year later
Franco was born in 1892....
I'm making a joke about when Franco died. All of the newspapers were confirming and re-confirming his dead for several weeks.
Are you joking?
Yes. Francos death was confirmed and unconfirmed many times. Alot of jokes have been made about it.
no, and the worst part is that he is still making movies
French and Nazis shaking hands, too: [Photographs of Petain meeting Hitler, 1940
](https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/petain-meeting-hitler-1940/), in the same year.
Remember that Spain never apologized for what they did to Native Americans.
What does has to do with anything?
Why doesn't EU honour victims of Native American genocide as much as they honour victims of Holocaust?
For several reasons, some more obscure, some totally logical: the Holocaust is very recent. There are still people alive that where on concentrations camps, the children of a whole generational trauma are very much alive, children who grow up with absent figures in their families, silences, and traumatized parents and grandparents.
The same happens in Spain with the dictatorship. I'm 34 years old and my grandparents suffered tremendously during the war and they are very much alive. Two of my grandparents lost siblings to abject povery, my grandma saw her older brother being murdered.
I'm not saying the Native American genocide was less important. But it happened 500 years ago. You can expect people to react in the same way as with something that happened half a millennium ago as to what happened to their grandparents.