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CrystalClod343

Did anyone else expect clerics to be in the last sentence too?


LogicBobomb

To be fair Clerics are the most OP class


FortRhein

And they have been since 1e. Not the flashiest by any means though so they fly under the radar


LogicBobomb

They didn't use to be, that's for sure. 5e Tempest Clerics on the other hand... Those Lightning Bois are pretty damn flash


07gur

Ah yes sorcerers are neglected yet again, even in the pro-caster paragraphs


Laser_3

Warlocks as well, sadly.


DuntadaMan

You can't even animate dead warlock trash!


The_25th_Baam

Bony McFingies, no!


ElVampiroIluminati

Haha nice reference


dvirpick

Thanks to Tasha's Warlocks can cast Animate Dead once per long rest with an invocation without consuming a spell slot. Compared to Wizards, Clerics and Spore Druids, Warlocks can only do it once per long rest so they can't sacrifice spell slots for more minions. And since it doesn't cost a spell slot they cannot upcast the spell to get more minions so it doesn't scale.


Merc9819

I’ve seen double-posting, but holy shit FIVE IDENTICAL POSTS?!


dvirpick

The app said the posting failed. Again and again.


82Caff

That's because, dead or alive,... (•_•) ( •_•)>⌐■-■ (⌐■_■) Warlocks aren't trash. (I have dozens of other pleasant lies for you, too, for the low price of... Not your soul, geez, how tacky! I was gonna say for tree fiddy #PactOfTheFathomless)


Thanos2ndSnap

Damn Loch Ness Monster. Get off my Reddit.


TTOF_JB

And Rangers. ☹️🏹


Laser_3

They’re half casters, so I think that- Wait, they put paladins in there. Okay, nevermind, rangers should’ve been in there.


DuntadaMan

That's because we're talking about helping the party. /s


Son_of_Eris

Hey man. Rangers really come in handy that one time in the campaign when you need to track a skeleton across the coast for whatever fucking reason. And those times when your cleric, paladin, and druid are all dead. Probably because they teamed up with a ranger. Or when literally every Fighter/Druid in the realms dies both unexpectedly and simultaneously. ...I never realized I had such strong opinions about rangers. I think I'm gonna write an entire campaign where a circle of multiclass Fighter/Druids attempts to exterminate all Rangers for failure to justify their existence.


Bruc3w4yn3

Rangers also come in handy if your campaign has any emphasis on resource management and travel at all. Additionally, a good DM knows how to give their players a chance to shine and should plan on incorporating challenges and puzzles that involve survival checks and navigating difficult terrain. Can you imagine how awful it would be to play as a rogue in a campaign where there were no traps or locked doors and the DM gave everyone extra damage for sneak attacks? or as a barbarian or fighter in a mystery based campaign where you just resolved the fighting with a single roll against a difficulty rating?


thePsuedoanon

Except that if someone's playing an outlander background they kinda beat out rangers in terms of food finding and not getting lost. Rangers can still be useful of course, it just sucks that a background can take so much wind out of their sails


DuntadaMan

Druid fighters: Life is struggle. Only those that are fit to survive will. Prove your worth, or face extinction like all else.


Son_of_Eris

It's not genocide, it's just Class Warfare ^TM


Dark_Storm_98

I used to just play Ranger (multiclassed with Sorcerer) But now instead of Ranger I've devised a build of a Fighter 6 / Druid 10 / Rogue 4 multiclass Still gets Fighting Style at Level 1, Spellcasting at level 2, Extra Attack comes one level late at Level 6, then it gets Expertise at Level 10 instead of Hide in Plain Sight, probably would pick Stealth and Survival, then it gets Cunning Action at Level 14 instead of the Ranger's Vanish Feature And it has the same number of Ability Score Improvements thanks to Fighter getting one at Level 6


Chris_W7

Yes!


123kingme

Yeah but rangers aren’t overpowered like the other casters. Edit: eh I wouldn’t actually say the full casters are overpowered, not in 5e at least. There’s an abundance of broken builds but I feel like in general 5e is relatively balanced if you don’t min max too hard. Ranger did seem like a slightly weaker class to me when I played it though, especially compared to the full casters and paladin.


NaturalCard

Pass without trace go brrrr


patojuega

more like go Shhhh


Mind_on_Idle

Lol


ICastPunch

~~lol~~


StayPuffGoomba

TIE fighters still make sounds.


Sgt_Sarcastic

Druids were already mentioned. No need to talk about second place


BraveOthello

That burned almost as much as the wizard's fireball


TKBarbus

So are warlocks full casters? WotC: No Oh so they’re 1/2 casters? WotC: Also no 1/3rd casters then? WotC: Still No Well then what the hell are they?! WotC: Warlocks


CalebthePitFiend

Can they cast 9th level spells? WotC: technically So they can upcast something like fireball to 9th level? WotC: haha no, for multiple reasons


Lorechaser1

Imagine being able to cast Wish and you waste it for 24 extra damage


gsfgf

> Well then what the hell are they?! Eldrich blasters


iama_bad_person

I actively avoid having to cast eldritch blast whenever I can, about 6 months into the homebrew the DM gave us all a chance to respec our charactor without changing the class and I instantly picked Hexblade. Not the best but at least I can last a session without hearing fucking Eldritch Blast, and when I do use it it's basically a meme because everyone knows I hate it 😂


FremanBloodglaive

Warlocks are weird. Cool, but weird. If you took Pact of the Tome, with Book of Ancient Secrets, invested heavily in ritual spells, and took as many invocations that give on demand spells as possible, you would be a really weird caster class, but not necessarily a bad one. Tiefling or Drow for the racial spells would probably be my racial pick. Fiend pact, or Efreeti Genie if you want Wish.


CptOconn

I think k its because they are talking about playing support heal buff. They want to tell that playing those rolls are needed. Because every body wants to be dps. Don't think it was talking about what classes could be but what they where designed to be.


DuntadaMan

>every body wants to be dps Buff/healer bot gang rise up!


MillorTime

You'll have to pry my life domain cleric character sheet out of my cold dead hands. Being able to do 70 points of aoe healing in back to back rounds at lvl 6 was incredible


terrendos

Same with my Twilight Domain Cleric. AOE THP, plus Spirit Guardians, plus Spiritual Weapon, plus getting to make my regular attacks every round... there is no comparison.


Ender16

Joke: dps magic Broke: Buff/healer magic Woke: Control magic


zeirodeadlock

Damn he even aoe attacked the comments


Nevermort21

Well, as much as we sorcerers wish it were different, it aint sorcerers of the coast. There are some subclasses that make them better. But that just makes it feel worse to play the less loved ones.


07gur

my poor shadow sorcerer


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skrapsan

I imagine you could make crazy level 20 builds for everything. But, that's kinda missing the point. ​ People complain about these classes because the base version of them are being outperformed at every role on lower levels. Very few people actually reach level 20. I have been playing since 2004 and I have had one campaign get past level 10... I don't really want perfect balance between classes. I want each class to have one thing in each pillar of the game that makes them useful in some way. Range for example is plenty useful if you do a lot of wilderness exploration. But if that's a part the DM skips all the time well then he should have something else to contribute with in combat and social settings. And it should be easy to obtain for the player and not punish them for making a well rounded character.


teball3

spirit shroud scorching ray is pretty good, scales well, but for spirit shroud's effect to add damage you have to be in 10 feet of the target. That and quickened spell doesn't let you cast 2 scorching rays in a turn, the regular rules for not casting 2 leveled spells in a single turn prevents this. that said, the best I can see is if you use the 9th level spell slot on spirit shroud, then a 8th level scorching ray on the next turn, you can smack something for 225 damage on average. (4d8(18)+2d6(7))X9. That's a 2 turn combo, that you have to be within 10 feet for. Also, I didn't even mention that's 9 attacks that have to hit first. Meteor swarm does an average 140 damage in a giant area at range. pretty good combo, far from OP. Also, wizards can use the same combo, but without needing to have a certain subclass. Basically this is only a thing if your DM let's you ignore the rule about only 1 leveled spell per turn, and if they're doing that, then Sorcs are already OP in every way regardless.


The-Senate-Palpy

Sorcerers are very good if you have a tashas subclass, and Metamagic adept is also so good for them its one of maybe 4 feats worth taking over a primary ASI. But 2 good subclasses and a feat is not enough to make a class. Multiclassing and items dont count toward the class. Sorcerers are always going to be my favorite class, but they need a slight buff. Theyre still better than all the martials + ranger and artificer by virtue of a diacount wizard still being strong as fuck, but they just dont have enough of an identity


MRoad

>Using the Eldritch feat from Tasha’s, a DS sorc can dip one level into hexblade to have a beefed up Eldritch Blast as a reliable and consistent source of damage. RAW you can't take agonizing blast without having warlock levels. Because it has a prerequisite, only warlocks can take that invocation.


Jfischer335

As a barbarian i think magic is scary and dont touch me with your scary unexplainable magic


Tzemiee

Even if i cast haste on you?


NaturalCard

I have ptsd from a wildmagic sorcerer causing a tpk with a twin haste into fireball. So definitely not.


SectorSpark

Sounds fun


Jfischer335

I mean i still dont like it but i do like hitting things ohhh my head hurts im not smart enough for this


DuntadaMan

Take out anger for cognitive dissonance and large words on the enemy.


Gralgrathor

Has nobody explained it to you? I got you. I ask my god "hey, my friend has an ouchie, can you kiss it and make it better?" and then they do. The tingle you feel is the tiny kiss. Now, wizards and what they do is some bullshit. Never trust a wizard.


DuntadaMan

Am wizard, can confirm. We get up to some shit.


Akuuntus

Ironic considering almost every Barb subclass is magical


Wormcoil

I wish there ~~were more~~ was a second non magical barbarian subclass. Battleragers log off you know you don’t count.


kingdogethe42nd

You gave me a character idea, a wizard who doesn't believe in magic. It's just unexplained science.


aRandomFox-I

Science is the study of the universe and natural phenomena. If magic is a part of the universe, then the study of arcana is a science as much as physics and biology. But for some reason, many people insist that they are mututally exclusive. Science being science, magic being not-science hocus pocus. They forget what the definition of science is in the first place.


Aramirtheranger

It's worse than you realize. Science isn't a body of knowledge or even a field of work. It's a method, which is ultimately a *philosophical argument* of how we can learn true information about the universe. So, if a wizard has to observe, hypothesize, experiment, observe again, and write it all down to learn new spells...


BaffledPlato

I've always wanted to try a wizard like Rincewind from Discworld. A wizard who can't wizard.


nadrjones

As long as you get a Deus ex Machina like he had to get you out of and into dire situations. Instead of part of the one spell, maybe possession by a small god, who is hiding from the other gods inside you. Otherwise you may as well be a barkeep with a funny hat.


FieldMarshalFry_II

So… Ponder Stibbon’s? Do they work in a High Energy Magic building?


TruffelTroll666

Princess bubblegum


col-fancypants

As a ranger, anything that is not a vine or a stick is heresy.


Xshadowx32HD

The Wizards of the Coast vs The Barbarians of the beach. Who would win?


OFTHEHILLPEOPLE

*WHO WINS?* **YOU DECIDE!**


DMThyrsus

EPIC! ... CLASS BAAAAATTLES OF MODERNITYYYYY!


Tofulord

The wizards would win, but those barbarians have more fun for sure.


cricri3007

The Warriors of the Waves


RobotJake

Time to start a company called "Fighters of the Jungle" and make a Martial-focused competitor to D&D. Call it "Swords & Satyrs".


OhThatNick

It's rather unfortunate that Mazes & Monsters has boggarted probably the best alternate title for D&D.


Ol_JanxSpirit

Adventures & Axes?


Princess_Moon_Butt

Ogres and Oubliettes


Cyaxjen

That pesky Squizard holding princess Shmarity hostage...


EridonMan

People of culture here...


hazeyindahead

Oh you KNOW you would react just like the ponies did when they came home to IRL D&D.


cookiesncognac

[Mazes & Minotaurs](http://mazesandminotaurs.free.fr/revised.html) is a perfectly playable old-school-style ruleset. It's written as alt-history parody (what if D&D had been written with a classical greek thematic focus instead of generic tolkeinish fantasy?), but it works.


endyrr

Been playing a 35 year campaign of Offices and Oligarchs. Brewing a health potion for my coffee mug as we speak.


bolxrex

Catacombs and Cockatrice


Rampasta

Tunnels and Trolls is the oldest version of this, a contemporary reaction to original D&D. There's also the stranger Watership Down inspired Bunnies and Buroughs


DuntadaMan

Always here to upvote tunnels and Trolls. Just because it is rare to see in the wild.


HaraldRedbeard

Spears & Spelunking


DapperApples

Lances & Looting


Public_Swing_3090

Claymores and cobolds


TheBrickBrain

Maces and Mimics


TheDeadlySpaceman

Orcs and Orreries


Rantroper

Flails and Faeries


Calumkincaid

Heroes and Hydras


Belteshazzar98

Axis & Allies


KingNarwhalTheFirst

Wait a minute


Scapp

Adventures in Middle Earth is essentially all martial focused


sirhobbles

And that's why magic items intended for martial characters are generally stronger than those for casters


Defiant_Lavishness69

That, and there are generally more of them. The Items that are Caster Only are really Bonkers, though. raising Spell DC is a big Boon.


lumberzach316

And most of them essentially just give the caster extra spell slots


Hero_of_Hyrule

Either extra spell slots or extra known/prepared spells. Occasionally both.


SomeGuyTM

A warlock with 1 extra spellslot for the day, when he normally has 2 or 4 max, aint nothing to scoff at if they're smart / crit with eldritch smite.


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SilverBeech

Any DM that awards items that increase a player's spell casting DC deserves what they get. These items are uniformly a bad idea. Boost spell damage? give extra spells? Boost spell attack modifier? All good. Boost spell DC and your game gets harder and harder to keep on track. Those include spell casting stat boosters too, like the librams and ioun stones.


potsticker17

Monks don't really get shit for magic items


rekcilthis1

Except for that one magic item that flips them the other direction and turns them into a god. Gloves of Soul Catching, deal an extra 2d10 force damage on unarmed strikes and heal the same amount, and makes your con 20. They're legendary, but any monk that gets them is damn near invincible.


imariaprime

What the. That's basically a 2nd level 20 capstone, but better.


scatterbrain-d

Yeah those are insane. And if you don't need the healing, you can choose to get advantage on your next attack as well. It's like they had three monk items ready to go but ran out of page space so they crammed them all into one item that is essentially the Fists of God.


ZacTheLit

Monks don’t get shit period the entire class has been bad since 5e was released (I still enjoy playing them tho cause I’m not a power-gamer)


JumpyLiving

Yeah, monks just need a redesign some time in the future. Just completely redo the class (and all the subclasses to bring them in line with the new main class and each other). Especially Ki, everything uses it and you never have enough, and make the bonus action dash/dodge/disengage free like for the rogue


JDirichlet

Last time I played a monk, I rpd that most monks don’t have this problem, and it’s just mine that doesn’t have enough ki — I later “unlocked” a bunch more ki by developing mastery. Also I stand my sincere belief that kobold monk best monk.


Cha_94

Kobold anything is best anything


Tossawayaccountyo

Old Kobold with no negatives do. New Mordenkainens book kobolds lose out on pack tactics (for good reason)


ZacTheLit

Yeah they need more ki-free actions and then just more ki in general, as well as D10 hit-di Those changes alone would do a lot for the class lol


supercalifragilism

I think they should polish off the psychic focus mechanic from the psionics playtest stuff they had, and potentially have passive/free abilities keyed to how much ki they have in their pool. Both fit the "well of inner power" vibe the class has, and gives it something to do that doesn't need to expend resources to contribute. And neither of those will add too much in terms of mechanical complexity as they're already extant, allow for level gating of abilities and rely on existing mechanics.


Shotagonist

Monks, with the exception of 4e, have always been a dumpster fire. The entire concept is "A Martial's martial" - its the idea of "a fighter is better than a wizard without spells" applied in the way of "a monk is better than a fighter without equipment" - but conceptionally, everything Monk gets just makes him fight at a disadvantage without really anything to make up for it.


Lampmonster

I recently read that monks were based on Remo Williams from the movie and The Destroyer series and now the class makes sense to me. Conceptually at least.


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ZenMonkey47

Honestly I'd say they were a bit of a mess in 4e as well. They were classified as a striker, but really they were more of a melee range controller with a bit of strikery elements. Add to that their lack of a melee basic attack for the non-STR builds.


080087

Monk being bad stems from two innate problems with 5e as a whole: * The only thing melee attacks are good for is damage. Shoving/Grappling are almost always strictly inferior to trying to hit something. So Monk's advantage in being able to attack the most times per turn does nothing, since other classes just do more damage. * Speed is generally worthless. Once you get into melee, you can't avoid the enemy attacking you by dipping in and out of range because opportunity attacks exist. Even if you take a feat (Mobile) to allow you to kite enemies, unless you literally double the enemies speed, they can still walk up and hit you anyway. So Monk's other big thing in having massive amounts of speed is also not noteworthy.


PlacidPlatypus

> Even if you take a feat (Mobile) to allow you to kite enemies, unless you literally double the enemies speed, they can still walk up and hit you anyway. That part's not necessarily true in the context of a full party. I played a Drunken Master Monk alongside a tanky barbarian and I definitely got some use out of the free Disengage that subclass gets. It's not a lot to be the class's main identity but it's not nothing.


SteelCode

To comment on this - the *biggest problem* with monks is the simplest one: unarmed strikes were never counted officially as *weapons* so **many** things straight up can’t work with the way monks were built. The “meditate to make 1 weapon count as a monk weapon” feature was added as a cop-out to basically making fists not work with things like smite or various spells that imbue weapon attacks. Monks were built to be thematic, but the game had very explicit limitations around using weapons… it’s the same flaw that makes unarmed fighting style or improvised weapons so weak and unable to scale into higher levels without a lot of homebrew/DM accommodation.


Taliesin_

I think the biggest problem with monk is that stunning strike is just objectively the most powerful use of their ki, so they're super disincentivized to spend it on their other ki features. And when they do use stunning strike, one of two things happens: - It works, and now the DM isn't having fun. Or... - More likely, it doesn't. And now the monk isn't having fun. Hard CC sucks, especially when it can't be undone by disrupting someone's concentration. It's why forcecage is such a problem spell. Imo, monks would be a lot healthier if they took some of the class's power budget out of stunning strike and spread it around their other features.


Richybabes

Which is probably either the #1 or #2 reason that monks tend to fall behind unless the DM takes pity on you and makes wristwrap versions of powerful magical weapons.


potsticker17

Basically what I had to do in my campaign. Created some wrist wraps and headbands just to improve the monkness. Eventually just retired the character and made an artificer.


hitchinpost

Whenever this comes up, I bring up that Neverwinter Nights had a cool way of addressing this: gloves/gauntlets that served as stand ins for magical weapons for monks. They were awesome, and bringing that into 5e would work so well, really even better than it did in NWN.


Bloka2au

Can I interest you in some tattoos?


potsticker17

Not really. I have a hard time making a permanent commitment.


ghtuy

I gave my party's Monk some +1 brass knuckles for unarmed strikes. It's not huge but it helps him be just a little more effective in a party of 3 other casters and a barbarian.


Albireookami

they "can" use a magic weapon. But the easiest fix is to just make magical handwraps.


Haboobalub

Dragonhide belt is nutty


imariaprime

Just gave one to our monk, we'll see how it goes. Ki points everywhere.


Vecingettorix

Apart from the robes and staff of the arch magi which add another wizard to your wizard


Aramirtheranger

WotC: We're not balancing D&D around the assumption that you'll have magic items anymore. Also WotC: *\*does that\**


TheBrazenPhlegmatic

You should check out some of the staffs that wizards and sorcerers can get their hands on. Truly gamebreaking.


Covo375

I'm just more surprised cleric isn't listed a third time...


liger03

The healing magic of clerics and paladins, the uplifting magical support of clerics and bards, the sheer magical power and versatility of clerics and wizards, the lasting magical potency of clerics and warlocks, the cleric magic of clerics and clerics... uh...


Octopusapult

I'm sure this is what they meant to put. Must have been a clerical error.


tchaik_psych

This is sorcerer erasure and I won't stand for it


NaturalCard

Keep in mind this is phb, back then you got the epic choice between wildmagic and draconic bloodline. Now we have divine, clockwork and aberrant mind, I'd totally add them onto the wizard section.


dragonlord7012

Make Mage Slayer a default rule if you want to relive 3e rules. Makes having a melee screen WAY more important.


Hannabal_96

Me and my dm basically just decided to give the first point of mage slayer to fighter/barb/monk and change it to "when the enemy *attempts* to cast a spell" so it doesn't get instantly countered by teleports


NoobSabatical

What is mage slayer?


blackrainraven

Mage Slayer 5e: * When a creature within 5 feet of you casts a spell, you can use your reaction to make a melee weapon attack against that creature. * When you damage a creature that is concentrating on a spell, that creature has disadvantage on the saving throw it makes to maintain its concentration. * You have advantage on saving throws against spells cast by creatures within 5 feet of you. Or in short: if a caster has let you into melee range he has goofed up and gets the bonk


Fl1pSide208

Yeah this really needs to be just a default part of a character kit... Coupled with concentration checks to actually cast a spell if you get hit and the power gap would be a little better.


Joxytheinhaler

How would it work with combat mage builds that rely on a mix of melee and magic?


Master__Swish

Most of them grab war caster right? Tbh i think alot of them would negate part of this trait. For the first point though perhaps allow certain spella to ignore the reaction attack, perhaps cantrips and reaction spells are allowed.


PaladinNorth

Wait you are telling me this is a feat? I’ve played 5e from release and we just did this as a normal thing! Well from months of play testing I can in fact tell you it’s likely the best way to go about a magic heavy party or stupid casters who forget about having something to take the hits for them.


Necronomicon82

Without Twilight Clerics, Bladesinger Wizards, Swords Bards, and Moon Druids, how will the 4 Elements Monk survive? Wait, why do we have a Monk in the party? Let’s ditch Aangie and get a Conquest Paladin with kick-ass auras.


NaturalCard

I want to upvote this twice.


Cthulhu3141

Remove your upvote, open this page in multiple tabs,then upvote it in all of the tabs. I don't know if that actually works, but it very much looks like it works.


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Cement4Brains

That's super cool, thanks for sharing that. I'd love to try being a DM and tools like this would make it much easier to play out a pre-written campaign book if things weren't going smoothly for whatever reason


RoyYourBoyToy

For the dodge roll, do you mean once per round? I'm curious about the details


alkonium

Fighters of the Jungle could be a good name for a third party publisher. Though I've sometimes considered Lizards of the Toast.


Duedelzz

Boutta roll up with a party of fighters, barbarians, and rogues, all multiclassed into weird builds, and start fucking shit up


Xshadowx32HD

Winning a fantasy game without using magic would be the most manly, honorable thing ever


AnonymousAscendant

Don't forget monk, punch em.


Jarfulous

How it's supposed to be, I think, is that the martials rely on the casters for their aid and the casters rely on the martials to keep the enemies off their backs. How it is, however, is that a party of casters can do everything by themselves.


ReisenBnuuy

Martials have neither the durability nor the area control to consistently protect spellcasters, so they need to invest in their own defenses. Which is barely an opportunity cost so most of them will be as durable - or moreso - than regular martials.


Taliesin_

The best way to protect a spellcaster is... spells. Spirit guardians, wall of force, fly, dimension door, shield, etc. Martial features just don't compare in this department.


Ridgetop18

Ironically one of the few/easiest way to actually screen for you spellcasters is…conquest paladin lmao another caster.


BoogieOrBogey

Yeah it's a bit of a cluster fuck for the class designs in 5e. Feats don't help the balance either, since Castors can gain some of the best Martial aspects while the reverse isn't possible. At this point I'd love a 5.5e release to address the Martial versus Castors disparity. Along with updating various other rules that games like Pathfinder 2e have found better ideas.


gorgewall

How do you make a caster into a martial gish? Give it Extra Attack, or something that accomplishes pretty much the same. They already have the means of getting similar AC, defenses, and *more* damage mitigation. How do you make the martial into a caster gish? Better hope you're on one of the two classes that each have one archetype that gives spells, and even then, it sucks and you wind up spending your spells on improvements to your martial-ness rather than duplicating caster stuff. Martials in 5E are "two attacks". Casters in 5E are "look at *all these fucking spells*". One of these is a lot easier to just hand out.


Waggles_

Yup. Bladesinger is miles better than Eldritch Knight in it's ability to be a gish. I'd say the other big contender would be a Battle Smith (or if you're allowing homebrew, a Forge Adept Artificer) because they get the INT-to-attack-with-magic-items thing and the fact that they can make their own magic items. Between Bladesinger and Battle Smith, I do prefer the Battle Smith because they are *extremely* SAD because you can just slap on some heavy armor and use your INT for everything else. Attack rolls? INT with a magic weapon. Saving throws? Add your INT up to 5 times a day. Is your friend making a saving throw? You can add your INT for that too. Artificer also has a better hit dice.


NinofanTOG

My Fighter with 18 AC sure will be there to protect them. What do you mean the Cleric has 20 AC and the Wizard can get 24 AC?


NaturalCard

The +1/2 hp per level totally makes up for them being twice as hard to hit. Really.


Tempest_Barbarian

problem with casters is they are too good at everything, at a certain point of the game they can do a lot of damage, negate damage, heal, utility spells for non combat situations. Its been discussed here before that martials should feel more like superheroes than just dudes holding weapons. A dude with 20 strength has inhuman levels of strength, but in game it doesnt really feels like that. Also, martials are combat focused, but they are more limited in what they can do than casters combat wise. So, in my opinion, remebering I am not a game designer so this could be a dumb idea, I think casters should be more specific with what they want to do. They will be really good at that one kind of magic instead of having tons of spells that do a bunch of different stuff. Its just an idea anyway.


DrCampos

This, it feels so bad that you reach the Max Posible raw streght with a Barbarian at Level 20, in theory you are fucking Hercules, but a that level every enemy is gonna be stronger than your graple or be able to teleport away while the wizard is desintegranting enemys at a touch, Or my personal favorite, The Dm Beefing swarms of enemies so they can survive the tactical nukes of Aoe of the Spellcasters, but we are still fighting goblins...at level 20, cuz a Single enemy just dont last


sarded

They fixed it last edition, then broke it again because casters and grognards complained. "It's too much like an MMO!" OK. MMOs successfully implemented balance in a fantasy game. Nothing wrong with copying them, they copied you first! 5e suffers hard from the loss of the warlord class - a nonmagical leader/healer who got you back up on your feet by drill-sergeanting at you.


ErgonomicCat

Yup! Casters were more limited and martials were more complicated. The rules were far more explicit on how often you could do things per fight. And everyone said it was too much of a game because martials had too many powers and casters were too restricted and having to pick only 2 encounter powers was too limiting. Hell D&D Next was more like that at the beginning until fab feedback turned it back towards 3.x style gaming.


Eubeen_Hadd

HOLY SHIT PRIVATE PYLE, IF YOU DON'T GET UP AND BEAT THAT OGRE IN THE FACE I'M GOING TO SKULLFUCK YOU. YOU BLOCK LIKE OLD PEOPLE FUCK. WERE YOU BORN A FAT, SLIMY, SCUMBAG PUKE PIECE OF SHIT, OR DID YOU HAVE TO WORK AT IT‽ YOU BEST UNFUCK YOURSELF OR I WILL UNSCREW YOUR HEAD AND SHIT DOWN YOUR NECK.


Shotagonist

Player who defend martials as a necessity tend to forget that large bunguses with multiattack are very standard monsters to fight and very easy to beat because of their lack of tricks to use. Even with monsters, the dangerous ones are the ones with magic.


braves_fan21

Old school D&d was more about dungeon crawling and survival, new d&d is all about combat so of course in this system the people with super human ability are more effective.


NaturalCard

But I still ban high level fighters from making 4 attacks cause its unrealistic you can shoot a longbow 4 times in 6 seconds. Please ignore the meteor conjuring wizard behind me.


ReisenBnuuy

Does the handbook say anything about the role of martial warriors? I'd assume they'd at least say something along the lines of casters needing their protection.


NaturalCard

If it does, I haven't found it so far. Its certainly not in the same section (titled 'role of magic'), or anywhere in that same first part.


FenDrawgon

Except they don't really. The only squishy casters are actually the wizard and sorcerer and both can get pretty good at negating damage or downright making enemies unable to attack. A cleric with spirit guardians, plate, a shield and spiritual weapon can just use the dodge action every turn without to be nigh unhittable while still dealing a lot of damage (some Subclasses or feats can add Shield on top of that if an enemy manages to hit a 20 with disadvantage)


Tofulord

About to finish Curse of Strahd with a party of 3 casters (necro wizard, druid, and bardlock). We sure as hell don't need any martial protecting us.


HaraldRedbeard

Yes but Cleric is by far the single most OP class. They can pretty much do anything given the right subclass. A party of all Clerics would just steamroll most peoples campaigns. Honestly the only thing stopping it half the time is peoples expectations of the cleric to be a 'heal-bot'. Paladin is potentially the only class that comes close. IN conclusion, Wizards of the Coast should really be called Religions of the Coast.


gorgewall

According to 5E's design philosophy and most of what I read on its various forums, the role of martials is "to be classes that baby-brained simpletons who can't handle the complexity of casters can play instead". All martials. Can't have a complex martial, we reserved this whole non-caster paradigm solely for simple, boring classes and that's A Good Thing, supposedly.


Xero0911

Healing magic is what my dm takes in consideration when it comes to picking our enemies. We have like 2.5 healers. Therefore, gotta make it tougher!


Pharmazak

Clerics are mentioned twice and rangers warlocks not even once :(


CommanderCheddar

Time to start up Lairs & Leviathans, the Martial-focused TTRPG that entails a world of oppressed civilization, demented gods, grandiose creatures of multiplicative magnitude in size or numbers, and weapons. The weapons themselves forged through absolute weapon mastery. Those who toil in the realm of weaving metal through means of the igneous organs of volcanoes are titled Weapon Lords. The weapons are crafted from the ores and flesh of the realm, the only things of natural and worldly creation. They are the only things to sing true when striking the Leviathans. The “gods” were once mortals who delved into the dark realms beyond space and time, trapped by the ethereal grip of magic, had their minds, bodies, and souls twisted into lamenting gods. Now, corrupt beings driven by their own madness, the gods lust for the defamation of natural creation. The Leviathans themselves, crafted meticulously by the “gods” of hellish planes who live only as machinations of the wicked magic. They drive forth seeking the destruction of all natural life in order to end all life.


Antonio_Malochio

Yeah, let's see how well your level 5 wizard does when *they* have to tank 40hp in a single round. This is just the PHB's way of saying "seriously, bring a healer".


ForestSmurf

Healer being: someone who can cast healing word or otherwise restore you from deaths door.


Shotagonist

Wall of Stone is 180 HP per panel.


[deleted]

Wall of Stone is also a 5th level spell.


gorgewall

The days of squishy casters are gone. The HP disparity between even Wizards and martials isn't as large as it's been, and spells allow for the negation or shaving of more damage than, say, Fighter features. Your Wizard can legitimately be a much better tank than a Fighter without even needing some bizzaro 3.5-style munchkin build. Shit, *Rogues* wind up better tanks than Fighters.


Albireookami

you mean those spells that suck absolute balls in 5e, and can't even out heal 1 round of incoming damage? Healing is awful in 5e, uses your action, and doesn't even give you any room to breath.


Slight_Acanthaceae50

Shield and mage armor. and good luck hitting that AC at level 5. Wizards and sorcs are the "actually important" characters in a party, rest are to make thsoe classes survive or protect them.


DontHateLikeAMoron

Imagine having to tank damage This was brought to you by Cleric gang


Wiztonne

A well-played wizard doesn't need to tank the same damage a martial would.


PUB4thewin

I usually just give Martials magic items that are meant for them. I homerule it that martial magic items are far easier to craft and less dangerous in creating than, let’s say, a staff of power. One screw up, and the local Wizard blows himself up along with his Tower because he didn’t get the right materials for the staff to properly function. The Rod of Lordly Might is particularly interesting as it adds a level of versatility to any martial class. Link: https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Rod%20of%20Lordly%20Might#content


DeepTakeGuitar

I didn't think it was ever a secret


Maskedbandit63

The fact that people argue that they aren’t is mine boggling


[deleted]

[удалено]


orangesheepdog

Notice that clerics are mentioned twice


Crunchy_Biscuit

BUt a BarBarIaN cAn oNe PunCH a WiZaRd. Say that to a level 8 feeblemind, plane shift, hold person etc. Let's not forget Shapechage or true polymorph into a dragon.


Akul_Tesla

Me and my friends were talking about a past campaign that's paused at the moment and we decided to actively discuss what happened on one of the occasions where the wizard was separated from the rest of the party The time they fought Shia LaBeouf The parties combat power we had debated was either at 20% or 10% with the wizard absence Now in the party's defense that particular wizard is an absurd powerhouse But still you think two clerics, a paladin and a fighter would be more than 10% of a wizard's strength That said the DM has specifically refused to tell the wizard the volume of the ocean out of fear he will evaporate it