Sometimes there is evil then there is this
By - VoodooPapi
Evil DM: Counterspells revivify.
Satan DM: Follows it up with animate dead.
Satan's Satan: Reacts Soul Cage, THEN you animate dead.
You don't really need soul cage though, it only lasts 8 hours and it takes the true resurrection spell to revive them anyways.
Yeah, but you can use both the body and the soul of the barbarian on your advantage. Need health? BAM! from your precious friend's soul. Tired of that damn character you keep missing? BAM! Give yourself advantage. Really need to pass a saving throw against the monk? BAM! Now I have advantage on those.
Definitely a good choice for a DM dick move, but in this specific case they were counterspelling revivify so it would already be too late to cast. If you did soul cage instead of counterspell I probably wouldn't bother with animate dead as the 1m casting time makes it a pain to manage and the 8h duration on soul cage is already enough to put some hurt on the party.
That's why all of my Dragons have a traumatized mage from the last party who dared encroach on their territory. Just have him do it while the party is distracted by the bigger threat
I was thinking more along the lines of flying away with the body, or in the case of a non-dragon boss maybe a dimension door or two. It's a risky gambit but if you pull it off your players will hate you forever.
Kinda like running a yeti.
Running Rime of the Frostmaiden and they were up against a yeti. Paladin went down and the Yeti just picked the dude up and ran off to finish the kill as he was about to roll death saves.
My players were pissed but I got to pull the "Yeti was just hungry and a squishy delicious man pulled up" card.
Is this the "it's what my character would do" from the other side of DM screen?
I like it
That's how my first ever TPK happened, the party started infighting. Right in front of the BBEG. A few people started throwing punches, and suddenly it was foggy and there were zombies coming in the front door, and one guy was caught under charm person.
I feel like it's even more fair from the DM side. If the players know this is a possibility they may attempt to avoid even going down in the first place.
Sounds like the perfect opportunity to give the Paladin his Lukr Skywalker moment
You gotta get a minute to cast it in there. Possible, but not easy. Especially if the wizard or similar arcane caster is still up.
That would be pretty cinematic honestly
I'VE LITERALLY DONE ALMOST EXACTLY THIS!!!
Killed a bard, rogue goes to use an item to reanimate them, skeleton rushes the to make sure it doesn't happen, lich casts animate dead. The most brutal PKs are the ones that happen twice.
Damm, that's harsh. Did their wizard counterspell your counterspell?
Hit em with the ol double Uno Reverse!
How can I? I don't have Uno.
You have UNO, it came free with your XBox
Well, mine didn’t have it. I have the oldest Xbox know to man.
YOU HAVE UNO!!!
I DON’T HAVE IT
YOU HAVE UNO YOU FUCKING DICK
I DON’T FUCKING HAVE UNO MOTHER FUCKER
GO ONTO THE XBOX STORE, IT'S FREE! THEY DON'T EVEN CHARGE PEOPLE FOR IT!
YOU HAVE UNO IT CAME FREE WITH YOUR FUCKING XBOX!
No dude, [*Dos!*](https://www.mattelgames.com/en-us/cards/dos)
Not the worlds second best card game!
You don't always drink beer, but when you do it's Dos XX?
**YOU HAVE UNO YOU FUCKING DICK**
Am a fan of a homebrew rule I read somewhere that if a Counterspell counter a Counterspell, a roll on the Wild Magic Table is made, and it affects anyone in the middle point between both casters if not self on both.
Ooo that's spicy I dig it
I used that. Ended up turning both the party member and enemy into plants. The party couldn't kill the monster-turned-plant before it turned back, and then it almost oneshot the whole party. Actually it did oneshot the party, but I had to dial it back a few hp to not tpk.
I’m curious because I really like the sound of this rule. If someone uses counterspell, someone else counterspells the counterspell, and finally someone else counterspells the second counterspell, do you roll twice on the wild magic table and affect the middle guy twice or do you just roll once and it affects all three casters?
I only ask because we had this exact chain of events happen twice in the final battle of my last campaign and I’m curious how it would resolve itself.
Well that's getting stored in the bank for later use.
I ***love*** this idea.
That is fantastic. The sorcerer in my party just grabbed Counterspell so I'm gonna make sure they meet some Mages equipped with it.
"Lets roll for Wild Magic"
"The Ancient Blue Dragon is frightened of his Kobold minion, and the Wizard cast Fireball on himself. Barbarian, How far away you are from him?"
This feels like a silly question as someone who has DMed for a few years, but where does the wild magic come into play with this?
I keep seeing wild magic come up in situations I don’t know why they would RAW. Is this a thing I don’t know about in the meta?
It´s probably homebrew, although I heard it a couple of times: Basicly as you are counterspelling magic, that is a breaking on the rules that conform said spell, so to get in a "normal state" the magic releases as a wild surge. Think of it as throwing a rock into a pond: The rock is counterspell and the splash is a wild surge.
Ahhh okay. That’s kinda what I was picturing it as something along those lines. It makes sense (as much as anything can with magic) but I’ve seen it a lot lately.
Our DM treats counterspelled counterspells as DBZ beam struggles. Something happens to the loser (I dk, I'm the barbarian) and a wild magic surge happens. It's pretty neat.
Omg contested wisdom checks, best of 5 wins, loser takes 1d4 of the appropriate damage type (psionic sounds right but idk what systems actually support that) and a wild magic surge happens
This sounds amazing
Not necessarily Wisdom checks. I’d reckon it would be whatever your casting ability is. For instance, a Bard would use Charisma.
I think concentration checks could work in a cool way!
It's homebrew. We really didn't like Caster's Duels becoming just Counterspell agaisnt Counterspell, a player proposed the Wild Magic rule, it worked and apparently is a pretty wide spread.
Yeah that makes sense to keep it interesting.
Yeah, if you look at their *other* big IP, you’ll quickly learn that WotC just refuse to admit just how quickly counterspells can ruin an entire table’s fun.
Are we talking about mtg?
Yep. You ever play a game where you take half as many turns as everyone else at the table? I have. Control decks are actual, irl evil. The only way to counter them is to also be playing control, otherwise they’re only fun for one player. When everyone else goes to WotC like *nerf this fucking bullshit*, their only response has been to give some wishy-washy bs about remembering to build decks that are fun for everyone. Then they print more cards that make it possible to play single-player magic at a more-than-one person table.
*while playing a mill deck*
*laughs in reanimate*
MTG is a zero sum game. So that means if you aren't having fun, then I'm having *ALL* the fun. (/s)
Nah, best counter to control is dirt cheap 0 strategy rushing, or burn. Banefire was my go to swap in for control decks where I couldn't kill them in 4 turns. So so many control decks killed with just that card.
Tefferi can get fucked forever though
I mean, you can have homebrew rules, but I remember playing a campaign in the 90s that had official wild magic results tables.
There are wild magic tables still, and I'm guessing the person was asking why you would roll on the table in the situation they described. RAW, you wouldn't unless you were a wild magic sorcerer or in a wild magic zone. Since nobody mention either of those, then there must be another rule, official or house, that explained it, since it seemed to be a common occurrence online.
I actually really like that idea
Dragons are usually sorcerers, so he could have subtle spelled it.
I love that
I dont believe they expected it
Never pull your punches at the climax
Never. My current finale is getting setup to be quite the final boss.
I have an epilogue written in case the party wipes which is 50/50 at this point. It's still a happy ending.
> It's still a happy ending.
I definitely would've played paper-based DnD for much longer if our DM gave us happy endings. Shit.
I'd do a lot of things for an intense happy ending
The happiest ending i ever got was “he died, of old age, survived by his 120 something children and numerous grand and great grand children”
I was not the bard. The bard had less kids in the same time period.
> The bard had less kids in the same time period.
I mean, it was (probably) literally a die roll lol
My paladin got murdered by a rug in my last finale.
10/10 would die again.
In this case it may end up with one player sitting out the climax though.
Edit: to everyone saying that it's luck of the draw or that you're happy you sat out a battle because of the heroic way you went out, I'm specifically calling out sitting out a battle because the DM decided to counterspell revivify. Granted, your point may apply if the lead up to that was a sufficiently epic sacrifice, but if it wasn't, it's the DM choosing to exclude a player.
We had the final battle of a 4 year campaign this week. The bbeg threw someone through a prismatic wall.
That's how I want my character to die. Super metal to tell a d&d story that ends with getting thrown through prismatic wall and taking a flobbity-gillion damage.
Oh also the player referred to the incident as "tasting the rainbow"
Become the rainbow! Taste the Rainbow.
Prismatic Wall, the spicy rainbow.
A part of me really hopes he passed enough of his saves to survive, only to be transported to another plane of existence and turned to stone
It almost happened that way but he eventually avoided indigo and violet. But indo took to his 5th save
Craziest part is. He didn't die. Evasion still cut everything in half despite being restrained. Still was down and out slowly getting petrified the entire fight. But basically just laid there shouting obscenities at the bbeg every round and trying to whip darts .
This is epic. I once played a Halfling fighter tank in pathfinder with just piles of AC and HP and feats that let him bolster neighbors AC and take hits for them. Tiamat was brought in at the campaign finale and instead of trying to hit him, she just sat on him and dealt crushing damage. He SURVIVED being sat upon by the dragon god. Interested, a succubus antagonist decided to rescue him off to an alternate plane and nurse him back to health; now he makes guest evil outsider appearances in new adventures when the DM wants to throw a short meaty wall at the players. I was never happier to lose a character.
(His name was essentially Geoffrey Geoffreysonson, wasn’t too bright, but his heart was usually in the right place)
I love d&d
As a barbarian I ran through a prismatic wall once to get to the fight inside after tanking all the damage I only failed 1 save...
the plane shift
I'm planning on breaking my staff of power with 20 charges left in it personally. Right in the middle of all the bad guys.
Real Bartimaeus Trilogy hours.
Can I go out by strong arming the BBEG into a prismatic wall with me? Slowing being burned into infinity to make sure the badguy goes down too?
The caster itself can freely pass through the wall so unfortunately no
Way better than my old dm. He told me at the start of a session "oh, by the way... your character is dead now." He had been running two side quests for part of the party involving my character a d someone else's. He lost interest in what he was doing for mine and just decided to kill my character off then expected me to play his npcs.
What the hell
Not going to lie, as a long suffering DM in a very long campaign, this makes me really happy. At some point the hedges, the nannying, and all the "fairness" needs to just get thrown out the window. The players are max level, have minmaxed their shit to the moon and back, and at the final fucking encounter of the campaign, it's time to just go as hard as you can. The bad guy is evil, so be evil.
I hope the party (almost) TPK'd.
It was intense and they won by the skin of their teeth. They had a blast
Excellent. Congrats to you and your group. I hope to see you on the other side when my own campaign (year 3!) ends sometime in the next year.
That's generally how my DM treats it. We'll have a few close calls most campaigns (including our first session of a new one a few weeks back) but generally nothing *too* crazy. When we get to the end though? He goes hard.
I've been doing the same, the BBEG's Right Hand (Wo)Man has fought the party many times and has been assembling a team of specifically picked counters to them all. And has been slowly implanting magic into them.
The party fought them last night and it was the first time the fight ended into a draw. The counter team is going into the drawing board and letting the right hand woman pick their brains to perfect their plan.
When I **Disintegrate**'d the Paladin I gave him the sheet for an enemy lieutenant. The only direction I gave was near the end: "This battle is turning against The Green Wind's (The silent but deadly Elven Assassin) side. She should probably attempt to escape.
It's D&D, you can include an afterlife scene where they are watching it play out from Mount Celestia. Souls can get trapped in magic items they are attuned to and provide surges buffs or inspiration. They could inhabit the body of a familiar or return as a revenant or an angel or a ghost (some lesser form).
They could commune with their God and plead for assistance. They could fight off a night-thing that preys on the souls of the recently deceased. They could dig their fingers into their corporeal body as the winds of the Ethereal plane try to drag them to oblivion. They could lay in wait for the soul of the dragon to meet them in death and exact some revenge on them.
PC death is inevitable, boredom is inexcusable
Another fun alternative is to give the player with the dead PC the stat-sheet of one of the bad guys, and allow them to have at it.
This is why a good climax should probably include at least *some* NPCs, even if they're in "We'll deal with this while you do the real work." mode. That way if somebody bites it early, they don't have to sit out the entire climax, they can take control of an NPC or two.
That’s just how the dice be bein’
Reminds me of my first threesome.
Did you switch to your porn account just to make that joke?
As someone who has sitted out a climax, if done correctly it can be awesome, but it does feel weird being powerless
I cannot find the thread, but this isn’t just the standalone tweet! It’s a very long story about how the party triumphed AND brought everyone back, despite him playing as hard as possible. The story doesn’t focus on his cruelty; it’s a set-up to how sweet a victory was attained because the party knew it was genuinely earned. :)
[Think this is the “transcript” of said encounter.](https://twitter.com/justicearman/status/1263298747490013191)
I lost it when the bard made the ahead of itself joke
Wow, thank you. That was really good!
>Holy shit please put me back
I love how the paladin thought the bard’s lute got chomped.
100% one of the greatest dnd moments I’ve seen.
That's why to avoid this controversy you always kill the cleric first.
Common sense to aim for the heal source.
While I agree as a whole, getting the raging barbarian the fuck off the field is also pretty important I’d say. But I would probably just use wall of force or force cage to trap them.
Or flying speed if we are playing monsters like they actually have there 19 int
>*there* 19 int
So, the opposite of you
“Hello, is this the burns ward?”
Vicious Mockery on full effect here
> While I agree as a whole, getting the raging barbarian the fuck off the field is also pretty important I’d say.
This is why Barbarians are fantastic tanks. Sure, they can soak damage, but a true tank you ignore at your own peril.
Geek the mage first, cleric is next. A dead tank is bad, but a dominated one is way worse.
Reviving someone in the middle of combat? Alright then.
Against something that has already proven it's ability to take out a class that, depending on subclass, ranges from "vaguely tanky" to "bear totem barbarian tanky"
*laughs in zealot barbarian*
"Yes, we've had first death, but what about second death?"
“Yeah, don’t know ‘er”
BB(EG) don't hurt me
Disintegrate users: "so your body keeps raging after dying? What happens when there is no body?"
It’s just one of the most fun subclasses but I tend to place a large burden on the bearer of revivify when I play it
At least it doesn't cost the diamond though.
Cackles in half-orc zealot barbarian
Yes, but even at one hp the Barb still has DPS and can be further healed once alive.
I’m actually shocked that this is even possible, and that revivify is a standard action. Seems like something that should take at least 10 minutes to cast.
I may not be correct in 5th, but in 3.5 you could only cast it for 1 minute after death.
Edit: 1 minute after death. But thats the reason its so easy to cast. Plus the barbarian is at 1 hp, so hell need healed asap.
In 5th, Revivify is a 3rd level instantaneous spell that can be cast within 1 min of death, only usable by Clerics or Paladins (unless you're taking something feat or class related). Requires touch to work. Sounds like it's pretty similar.
However, what I'm more concerned about is that the party couldn't use Spare the Dying, which means the Dragon was either capable enough to prevent the party from getting within melee until the Barb failed all his saves, took multiple attacks after he went down, or was just straight up one shot. Which makes me think this fight wasn't meant to have the party come out whole (if at all)
As of their debut in Eberron, Artificers also get Revivify, which I always thought was kind of wild.
I always liked to think that when they do it, it's kind of like a magical defibrillator, just shocking the body with enough magic that the soul "starts working" again.
Alchemist Artificers, I figure, have something akin to an adrenaline shot.
>You’re gonna give her an injection of magic straight to her heart. But she’s got a, uh, breastplate— you gotta pierce through that. So what you have to do is, you have to bring the needle down in a, uh, stabbing motion.
**The Rogue, freaking out:**
>I gotta stab her three times?!
I always figured revivify had the one minute limit because the soul hadn't left the body yet by that time. It's literally a defibrillator
This is why you need a grave cleric...
I'm playing a Lizardfolk Grave Cleric for my first character, he had to be instructed *not* to skin and process a guy that started a fight at the club we were guarding after he caught a Toll The Dead to 1HP from overkill.
That was the first time he got to cast Spare The Dying
I'd rather just be a grave robber a few millenia after the battle. Wonder what neat trinkets I can find. Ooh, it's giving me shivers of excitement!
I mean, personally i've always seen that time window of one minute after death as the fantasy version of clinical death vs brain death. Raise dead and resurrect are true necromancy spells that retrieve the soul from the afterlife and bind it to the body once more, as well as fixing the body itself. Revivify is more like a magically hypercharged defibrillator.
Glad I'm not the only one that like to compare Revifiy to a defibrillator.
The time limit can lead to some real interesting situations when you have intelligent enemies about. Intelligent enemied may know what Revifiy is and can try to stop you reaching them in the time. Once had a situation where my character died (reduced to 0 max hp by a vampire) and the rest of the group ended up scrambling to firstly, prevent the vampire running off with the body to stop him raising my sorcerer as a vampire spawn, and secondly figuring out how to get Revifiy to stick with me having 0 max hp (because he liked the idea GM ruled a fresh enough corpse exists in a weird state of both creature and object, so we could use Aid to bump up max hp then Revifiy) all within a minute.
Does cost a diamond worth 500gp. Edit: 300gp. Def. 300gp.
300 for revivify.
If revivify is their only option, it must be used less than a minute after death, so time is of the essence. Otherwise they're dragging around a dead body for a few days/weeks after the fight trying to find a cleric with something better. Depending on the DM, that may not fly. My DM is stingy in reviving spells (rightfully so IMO) and it has to be roleplayed convincingly so as to not be abused.
Yeah, 1 minute (10 rounds).
End the combat, then revive.
Against an ancient dragon, 10 rounds might not be enough, especially if they were in its lair. They're not just deadly, they're cunning, and they have the hit points to be an absolute damage sink, not to mention that iirc blue dragons in particular like to prey on already weakened parties with hit-and-run tactics, trying to draw the battle out and exhaust them. With probably the tankiest member of the party down, they likely would've wiped without him being up and swinging - pulling the body into cover would've been smart, but trying to wait for the end of combat in that situation probably wasn't an option.
Ikr. At least pull the carcass into cover first or something.
The hardest choices require the strongest wills.
*casts disintigrate on the dead body*
Nah, lets them revivify him then casts disintegrate. I know he then gets a chance to dodge it and with danger sense that's even more likely of a dodge, but it's just too funny.
No no. Wait till revivified, then disintegrate the ground under the barbarian so he falls into a 10ft pit and takes 1d6 falling dmg (unless theres something about barbarian that negates this).
I don't think there is something specifically negating fall damage in the barbarian arsenal, but maybe have some spikes at the bottom of the pit to continue dealing damage while unconscious to make him dead again faster.
The DM wasnt evil, the dragon was.
Very good RP
Yeah, i don't understand people in here arguing that the DM is a bad person for doing this.
I think it's due to the fact that as a result the barbarian can't play anymore since they're dead
That isn't true. The party can try to get out of counterspell range and attempt another resurrection spell or they can counterspell the counterspell.
If that doesn't work and the barbarian has died, then the player can act as a monster wrangler and control the dragon and its minions against the party, or roll attacks and damage if the Dm prefers not to hand over the keys to the dragon, so to speak.
So even if a PC dies, that doesn't mean that player has to sit by the sidelines and do nothing. Perhaps an npc ally is participating in the fight, and the player could control the npc's actions. Plenty of ways to keep that player engaged in the fight.
You aren’t getting out of combat with an ancient dragon. You’ve troubled its day, and you will feel pain.
But that's also a different experience than playing your own character. They've gone through the entire campaign to end up in the climactic fight with the big bad only to get sidelined by counterspell that would have allowed them to contribute to the culmination of the campaign. Some people would be fine with taking over monsters others would be fine with NPCs, but if there are no NPCs or they don't like to play NPCs or monsters, then what? They just watch their party finish the boss without them.
Their character's death contributes to the climax of the campaign. It ups the tension, it's dramatic, it makes for a good story. What better way to send off a character than fighting to the death in the final battle, and giving your life to protect your friends?
Give them an rp scene after the fight, where they go into the afterlife. Perhaps a barbarian valiantly ascends towards valhalla, and becomes the champion of a god?
Pc's also usually don't just croak immediately at the start of a fight, so chances are this battle was wrapping up within 1-2 rounds anyways, so it's not like they'll be wrangling monsters for multiple hours at that point. And c'mon, everybody likes rolling dice, that's a given =)
After the finale the DM should then ask the barbarian if they are ready for the next chapter of the campaign. Start up the DOOM soundtrack, the barbarian must escape Hell.
Yeah! Rip and Tear, until it is done!
I mean, yeah, that's what happen when someone dies.
To be fair. Do you realize just how fucking HARD it is to even down a high level barbarian??????
Ignoring the fact that there’s one subclass that literally just can’t die via conventional means.
By the time they’re higher level features come online most barbarians will effectively have, due to resistances, around 400+ HP. Let’s not even get started on if they’re max level and take the tough feat as well.
This. This isnt like the first round one shotting of a character. This is probably balls deep into the fight and at an epic moment the barbarian died, likely as hed want to, against a powerful foe.
Also they could just rez him later.
Exactly. Generally rule of thumb, if the barbarian is gonna die, they wanna die bloody handed and in plenty of company. So I’m pretty sure this kind of death would check that box.
And that's what animate dead is for!
Strategy is key. Get the dragon to burn its reaction, maybe get out of counterspell range/break line of sight or have the wizard counterspell the counterspell. There's a lot of options.
This is a dragon we're talking about, and a blue one, at that. Its smart enough to know "Hey, if they revive that guy, I'm probably fucked."
Because it seems half of all players on D&D subs are absolute crybabies.
*but I just paid a guy 200 bucks to do a portrait of my level 1 hamsterfolk paladin how can u do this*
Honestly so many people on DnD subs seem like they'd be happier playing with story drivem systems like Fatecore, but those games just don't have the mass market appeal of DnD.
Question: If a spell gets counterspelled, would you get your components back or are they gone?
They're gone, as well as the spell slot
Oof. Thanks for the quick answer!
Sometimes the counterspell has to go to something smaller too though.
That's how it goes. If they're evil, they're going to do evil things.
Wow it eats the components too. Brutal.
Thats not an evil DM, thats a good but firm DM playing an evil character.
DM: The hardest choices require the strongest wills. \*Counterspell\*
Bruh...who hurt you
Chaotic suffering lol
Blue will do counterspells and denial, black will use death magic, red will use direct damage, green will use buffs and white will use healing…
*LAUGHS IN [Archaeomancer] [Familiar's Ruse]*
[[Archaeomancer]] [[Familiar's Ruse]]
Why is this bad
Counterspell? Pfft. Let em cast, then hit the 1hp barb AND the cleric with the ol' lightning breath.
I was asked to do a one-off appearance for a friend's game where he had a character betray the party, controlled by Ascerac. It wasn't my usual time and was at 7am, I'm not a morning person. I was told ahead of time they know they aren't safe and could die and to try hard.
Had a hold person on one of the party members, with a TRex or younger dragon attacking them (I can't remember which) in melee range. One of the party members casts freedom of movement on the person I was holding. A small part of me will always regret not using Counterspell to stop it, even though the logical part of my brain realizes we were playing with characters 7 levels higher than I'd ever played before.
What’s this mean? Everyone was talking about uno and I’m trying to learn
Counterspell is a spell that can be used as a reaction which cancels out the spell cast by another character. Revivify is a spell with a high cost that can bring someone who died back to life.
Counterspelling revivify means that a spell slot is wasted, the casting component which is a diamond valued at 300 gold, and the action used to cast the spell are wasted and the person that was being brought back from the dead remains dead.
Easy there, Satan. 😨
Can someone help explain to me what counter spell does?
Someone casts a spell, as a reaction, you can use counterspell.
The spell that you are reacting to then has no effect.
So here, the players tried to revive the barbarian, and the dragon stopped them from doing it.
Say "no" to a spell as a reaction
This reminds me of an awesome flavour text from MTG, might have been from a Counterspell card, or at least something similar to it.
I can't find it right now, but it was something like "the greatest power in magic is the ability to simply say 'no'."
Probably [Negate](https://scryfall.com/card/ori/65/negate) -
*Masters of the arcane savor a delicious irony. Their study of deep and complex arcana leads to such a simple end: the ability to say merely yes or no.*
There are a bunch of counterspells with great flavor text in MtG though, like Last Word - *Someday, someone will best me. But it won’t be today, and it won’t be you.*
Very fucking cool.
I dont wanna be a dick but like my man, it's literally the words of the spell.
Yeah that wouldn't work in my campaign. They fucking counter EVERYTHING. it got to the point where I had to plan out how to bait their reactions with other enemies before a caster used a spell slot.
Might be the time to consider working the terrain to make it harder for casters to get within 60 feet of the boss. Or make said boss mobile enough to get away once they do.
Oh boy, it's one of those memes that turns the comments section into a war between the "the game should be challenging and have the possibility of defeat and death especially at major plot fights rather than have the party be plot armored and never *actually* in danger of dying and/or losing" team and the "the game's about the characters and RP and fun, and dying removes your character and ability to RP and play them and therefore should never/very rarely exist in the game, nobody actually enjoys losing or dying and it serves no purpose but to bum your players out" team
I'm firmly in the former group here, but i think the ideal solution is to not argue about it since both sides' opinions are equally valid and they're two different ways to play where neither is the better or correct philosophies. Having players on opposite sides of the debate in the same campaign rarely works out well and which side the GM wants the campaign to be on should be worked out in session 0 so that problems don't arise because of mismatched expectations lol
I don’t think this is really a dick move. The finale of the campaign against their most formidable foe yet. Gloves are off, you gotta leave it all on the table.