The day my nat 20 misses is the day I step on 100 D4.
By - username_i_suppose
Nat 20. But the creature has displacement and mirror image. You miss because you don't know where it's at.
> mirror image
Even with Mirror Image, you still hit *something,* even if it isn't the actual enemy
wouldn't that at the most just give you disadvantage?
In previous editions displacement and other things like it such as invisible and mirror image didn’t affect the roll or ac instead before you attack you would have to roll a % miss chance to see if you hit the right space basically, probably what the commenter was thinking
Miss percentile is calculated after making the attack, to determine if you would even hit the mirror image or the displacement.
Displacement has a 50% miss chance. Mirror Image has a compounding miss chance.
My group just always did it before you roll attacks to see if there was even a point to rolling the attack
For Mirror Image, a successful attack against the false image destroyed it, increasing the chance that the next attack would hit the real target, so there's always a point to rolling the attack when that was the spell involved. Not so much for Displacement.
You cannot hit what isn't there.
however, what's not there cannot hit you
No mirror image is a completely separate roll, if I roll the correct number your nat 20 is hitting the after image not that character.
Yah, mirror image is opponent rolls to hit, then you roll to pass it off to a duplicate. Which makes me wonder if you can purposely fail it...
By that logic I think the nat 20 still hit lol
Laughs in Invoke Duplicity
I forget that 5e doesn't have miss percentile for mirror image and displacement RAW. I just have always run it that way, and refuse to change that.
Mirror image does have an auto-miss feature in 5e it just doesn't use the percentile die to determine it.
Watch out for mirror image
The displacement would give disadvantage. The mirror image gives a chance that your attack hits an image instead.
So if you rolled 2 20s with disadvantage , they could still roll the chance for it to hit an image.
Mirror image: roll a d20 when you get hit if you roll above the DC based on your numbers of clones the attack hits a clone instead
Even then, you would "hit" the mirror image, destroying it, even if you don't hit the target.
I've been in this sub for a while now, and I have literally *never* seen anyone claim a nat 20 isn't an auto-hit.
Now, for skill checks, on the other hand, a nat 20 is not an automatic success. Unless your DM rules it as such.
I was referencing a recent meme from 6 days ago lol
I presume the fact that shouldn't even be possible is part of the humor of the original meme.
Well I'll be damned
Enemy has invisibility, they move from their original position, player misses the notice check to find their new position and attacks their old position, even if they rolled a Nat 20 their sword doesn't fly 30 feet from their hand to strike the invisible guy.
Ok, see, no extra steps were mentioned, so now I get how it could happen
I love this game, I can learn new things about it every time I play
adamantine armor nullifies crits
so imagine a guy with a +3 adamantine armor +3 shield the shield spell and a warforged
that would be 32 ac withouts crits that would be impossible to match
Maybe I'm too martial to understand how you're even supposed to beat someone like that
He is incorrect, the critical hit and the automatic hit features of a Nat 20 are two separate things. Adamantine Armor says that “any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit”. This doesn’t override the instant hit, just that you don’t get hit with twice as many dice when that hit gets you.
Because I assume people will want evidence that what I am saying is correct, let’s take a look at the PHB, see page 194, “If the d20 roll for an attack is a 20, the attack hits regardless of any modifiers or the target’s AC. This is called a critical hit, which is explained later in this chapter.” Now let’s look at page 196 under critical hits, “When you score a critical hit, you get to roll extra dice for the attack’s damage against the target. Roll all of the attack’s damage dice twice and add them together...” no mention of this being attached to the auto hit.
Looking back at the Adamantine Armor, it states that “any critical hit becomes a normal hit.” This implies that you must have hit because the item doesn’t state something like it becomes “a normal attack roll” in which case it would be very clear that you would add modifiers as normal.
Let’s take the inverse real quick as shown in the Assassinate feature (PHB page 97), it says “any hit you score against a creature that is surprised is a critical hit”. Now I don’t think people would try to claim that you just automatically hit because the ability requires you to make a normal hit against the target already. This implies that a hit is defined in the game as already beating the target’s AC. The same can be seen with the Paralyzed condition on PHB page 291. Based on these rules, we can apply the use of the word “hit” within the PHB to mean having beat the target’s AC. So a Nat 20 on the Adamantine Armor, becomes a normal hit which is still a hit so you will take damage.
Sorry for the rambling, wanted to get as much detail in there to explain the ruling as I could.
oh thanks i assumed otherwise thanks a lot for enlightening me
A player at my table tried the exact same thing, so I have had this discussion before.
Also if you are fighting monsters, their to-hit bonuses go up to +19 which means that they would need to roll at least a 13 to hit, slightly unlikely but still definitely feasible. If you are going the PVP route, a +3 weapon can get you to a +14 to hit which means 15% of the time, you are hit. Much more unlikely, but for a game that prides itself on bounded accuracy, it’s amazing that you have to build a PC with the intent of focusing on AC to compete with the high level to-hit bonuses. Just goes to show that the claim that the game is balanced around a lack of magical items to be complete BS.
i also think that in the very late game most martial classes especially the fighter and barbarian are far weaker than full casters unless you load them with magic items
Oh definitely, the fact that they have to rely on casters to even hurt most monsters after like level 7 without their magic weapons says a lot. Without the Holy Weapon or Magic Weapon spell, martials are completely screwed.
really dislike that honestly...
i tried homebrewing some martial techniques that martials could use in combat but after trying it out although it made melee combat more interesting but it did not help martials compete with spellcasters.
i mean unless your a grappler cause i let them choke spellcasters so they can't vocal component
but i made it balanced by having to use extra checks...so it ended up that my grappler pc can at least get 2 rounds of damage on a spellcaster...
but spellcasters still have the upper hand...i am having a lot of trouble trying to balance spellcasters with martials
Martials and spellcasters have 2 separate goals, martials draw fire so the spellcasters eliminate threats, unless you’re the Paladin in which case you do both. A good solution I have found is granting martial characters feats for training, there are so many feats that help martials such as sentinel, great weapon master, resilient, shield master, and even fighting initiate can make martials much stronger and more varied than they currently are.
Another option is to run more encounters between long rests. Spellcasters benefit from short adventuring days because they can dish out large spells each fight, making the day include a bunch of medium to hard encounters means the casters will have to rely on cantrips at some point which doesn’t do as much damage as most martials can dish out in a turn. This makes the strengths of martials more apparent, they can deal sustained damage all day regardless of how many fights they do; spellcasters can’t, they have to choose which fights to use big spells on and which ones to relegate to cantrips.
The only time our DM told me a Nat 20 missed was because we kinda went out of our way to harass a character way above our “pay grade” we were like level 4 and the character we started fighting was supposed to be (we found out later) someone we took on shortly before bbeg. Aaaaanyway first attack i shoot a guiding bolt and roll a Nat 20 “Yes!” I exclaim, “Nat 20 baby!” *DM straight face* “Plus?” Thats when i knew we fucked up… Our party learned a good lesson in biting off more than you can chew. But hey nobody died
It would have been more correct if it tanked the bolt like a champ so when you hit with a NAT20 and takes a lot of dice damage the DM describe it as it mostly bouncing off him barely scratching it then you realized you are so fucked up.
DM's call overrules the rules as written, so this wasn't technically wrong.
however, the book does actually say that for attack rolls, a nat 20 always hits.
Yeah, the dm just fundamentally altered core mechanics by doing that.
My only problem with this if it was the only time this happened. I like to be consistent and would instead describe little to no damage instead even after crit. If this is normal that a nat 20 gets modifiers then it's ok, even if I hate it.
Adamantine Armor prevents the extra damage of a crit, but doesn't keep it from automatically hitting.
Where in the book can I find this distinction?
PHB page 194 "Rolling a 1 or a 20" as well as the wording of the Adamantine Armor description in the DMG.
Also, not an official ruling, but Jeremy Crawford, lead rules designer for 5e has confirmed over twitter: [https://twitter.com/usmcbears/status/1006012375802183680](https://twitter.com/usmcbears/status/1006012375802183680)
all that said as I mentioned in the original comment, if your DM rules otherwise they are free to do so.
There are quite a few ways to get a nat 20 to miss. Wizards have a few. Rune Knight can redirect the attack onto someone else (I hope you don't mind critting your team mate instead).
My party fought a Rune Knight and the Paladin Smited, their ally didn’t feel so good after that. Then she thought twice before Smiting on a critical hit because she wasn’t sure if the feature was still available to the Rune Knight. It was, but they had already used their reaction.
While others have mentioned Mirror Image, I would like to add that if those d4 are all at once, 100 of them wouldn't hurt. The force on any one point would be quite small, like how laying on a bed of nails works.
You are forgetting that only a few can fit under a foot at once due to their physical size, and those few will really hurt!
Mirror image could cause it to hit a different target, which I guess is kind of a miss?
Armor of Hexes tho.
You still hit you just hit a target that disappears and was a useless target to hit.
That just sounds like "you miss" but more verbose
It's not, though, because you would have used up one of the Mirror Images, making it easier to hit the enemy on subsequent attacks
That's not the point though, the question still is "did you actually hit your actual target with your crit?". Which if you were planning to burn through mirror images and you just so happened to crit, then sure I'll concede to that very specific scenario.
If not then yeah, you missed with a crit
> the question still is "did you actually hit your actual target with your crit?"
If the enemy had a magical shield that completely negated the first three attack that hit them and you got rid of one of those hits, would you say that you missed your target?
I mean, how did the magical shield do that? Is it an automatic miss? Then yes, you did miss the target.
Did it turn the hit into 0 damage? Then yeah, you still hit.
You hit the image taking a resource away. You still hit.
If you miss the Mirror Image still has all the images.
Are you targeting the person or the mirror image of the person?
Are you reducing a resource either hit point or an image? Then it’s a hit because a resource was spent.
You’re being really dense here.
The mirror image is essentially the equivalent of hitting an illusion (there's a reason it's an illusion spell). If I hit the illusion of a person, did I hit the person?
I'm not talking out of game mechanics here, because that's essentially meta-speaking. I'm asking if hitting an fake of a person would count as hitting the person.
Yes because if you didn’t hit the person the image isn’t dispelled and there’s also a chance that the image doesn’t work so you have to have hit to trigger the effect of the spell.
If you don’t hit a resource isn’t lost.
Well no, if the duplicate is destroyed then you hit a duplicate. If you hit the person then you don't destroy a duplicate. If you miss both, them you don't hurt the target nor destroy a duplicate.
"Each time a creature targets you... ...whether the attack instead targets one of your duplicates."
"A duplicate can be destroyed only by an attack that hits it."
Clearly there's explicit differences between hitting an illusion and hitting the person you actually want to hit. If you hit the target then yeah, that's a hit but it won't destroy an illusion.
Again, it's an illusion spell. If I attack and "hit" someone's major image of themselves that's very close to, am I hitting the person? Because the way mirror image is worded, it's clearly implied to be illusory duplicates and not actually "the target", just like how an illusion spell is supposed to work.
what about attacking a Illusion or an invoked Duplicity? You hit jack shit since there is actual only air at the place you miss. But atleast you now know that this is not the real target and can look for the caster.
Doesn’t a NAT 20 autohit no matter what circumstances?
99.99% of the time, yes. But not *always*.
what about that other .01
The main thing I can see is the Armor of Hexes feature from the Hexblade Warlock. If the target of your Hexblade’s Curse hits you, you can use your reaction to roll a d6, 4 or above and the attack misses “regardless of its roll”. This supersedes the general rule of the Nat 20 automatically hitting so the attack would miss.
I’ve seen some contention about Mirror Image and it all depends on what you view missing to mean, you effectively did some damage with the critical hit because the target lost a duplicate, but I won’t weigh in on that debate.
it's just a matter of semantics. literally how you define the word "miss". you "missed" your target, but you hit something else.
Mostly, you are attacking the wrong square, whether your blinded, in darkness, fighting an invisible enemy, or an illusiory one, if you attack a square with no enemy in it, you miss, even with a Nat 20, since there is nothing to hit.
Another example: the enemy uses a major image to send a hologram of themselves to you, you miss the saving throw and think it's really them and attack it. Even with a nat20, you do not hit the enemy. You do not hit, you do not deal damage.
> Even with a nat20, you do not hit the enemy.
In this case, you would hit the Illusion though, likely revealing the nature of it to you.
For major image, maybe, but it doesn't say that in the spell, so it would be a houserule. Here are two more examples:
1. Phantasmal force: if the force us described as a "lightning fast, impossible to hit enemy", a Nat 20 does not break the illusion.
2. Much more common, invisibility. Enemy drinks a potion of invisibility and teleports (or walks) away, you can attack the square they are in as much as you want, you will never hit.
> For major image, maybe, but it doesn't say that in the spell, so it would be a houserule.
> Physical interaction with the image reveals it to be an Illusion, because things can pass through it.
Direct quote from the spell description. Swinging your sword through the illusion would reveal it as such.
Phantasmal Force and Invisibility could both be reasons for missing on a Nat 20, but I was disputing the use of Major Image. It would work for one "hit," but that's it.
It says "physical interaction" breaks the illusion, so a weapon attack does, but not necessarily a spell attack.
Probably depends on the spell and the DM. In this situation, I'd rule that something like Toll the Dead wouldn't reveal the illusion, but Guiding Bolt would.
Also, depending on the spell, it might pass through and hit something behind the illusion, like an arrow would.
My custom monster with a hit box would like to talk with you. You can only hit if you roll a 7-13 and you crit on a natural 10.
Do you hit on an attack roll of 7-13 or is it based only on the number on the d20, regardless of modifiers?
Pure d20. They have a flat chance to hit. That way I can modify the window to make it easier or harder.
Phantasmal force, phantasmal killer, major image, or simply attacking something that isn't there (darkness + misty step), there are lots of reasons you attack but didn't hit anything.
"Nat 20! Lemme roll damage cause Nat 20s always hit!!"
"Nope. Mirror Monster. You crit on a 1."
Yes ! When we play, out nat 20 always succeed. If even a nat 20 is not enough that would mean the action is impossible, so we wouldn't roll it at all
A roll can still influence the gravity of failure, even if the task is impossible.
We roll for gravity of failure after failing at a task with possible grave consequences, not before even trying, and if something is completely impossible we still don't roll at all. Your way of doing it is valid of course, but we don't find it really amusing, it would be extremely unsatisfying to fail with a nat 20
With that mindset, if you haven't tried Genesys I recommend giving it a go. Favorite rolling system for the narratively-minded
I'm referencing attack rolls
I guess the enemy could have adamantine or a passive ability that negates critical hits. Either way, I'd say it's definitely questionable.
Adamantine turns critical hits into normal hits, so the hits don't do double damage, but are still hits
Even if the AC is still higher than 20? Not trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to see what people think about it
Yes, Raw a natural 20 always hits regardless of AC in the same way a natural 1 always misses regardless of modifiers making the total more than the AC.
A hit is a hit. Addy armour reduces a critical hit to a normal hit, meaning it is still a hit regardless of the target's AC
Fair enough! Honestly I've not played in a game where I actually got addy armor and honestly never really thought to look into it. Thanks for the response!
yes by raw nat 20 autohits anything
Fair. Honestly I wouldn't even give an enemy the players are fighting crit immunity.
RAW critical hits and automatic hits are distinct. A Nat 20 is both but things like improved critical mean that a 19 is a hit but not an critical. Since they are distinct features something negating a critical hit wouldn't impact the auto hit
Huh. That's cool. Thanks for the info!
I’d argue it’d still hit you just don’t get the added damage from it being a critical.
But what if the AC was higher than the rolled 20? Would it still hit?
Yes because critical always hits so a Nat 20 automatically hits the target. Adamantine armor doesn’t say “The attack misses” just that the added damage from the critical is negated.
Even if you still run the creatures AC at level 1 you’d have at least a +5 to hit assuming standard array maybe even higher if you roll stats and if you’ve thrown something with an AC of a 26 at a level 1 party you’re a dick.
I mean... I never said I would throw a 26 ac monster at a level 1 party so I don't know where that's coming from, honestly. I only asked because it's something that's never come up in any of the games I've played. I appreciate the comment, though.
Because you’d have to throw at least an AC 26 thing at a level 1 party for the situation to even be relevant because a 20 on the die is hitting anything lower than a 25 AC
It was still only a theoretical question. Please understand that even as a relatively inexperienced dm I understand what a balanced encounter is.
Pathfinder. Roll to confirm. Always thought it was a really meh rule anyways.
The attack still hits on a Nat 20, though, iirc. Roll to confirm was for the critical damage.
Oops, looks like I haven't played pathfinder in a looooong time.
Just about the only time a nat 20 doesn’t succeed is for skill checks and odd circumstances for combat.
this has nothing to do with checks though
A player in my game is cursed to have the next few Nat20s miss. Brought it on himself, really.
for my players one time i made an encounter of which nat 20 not hit
the fear they had on their faces was priceless
and the encounter was super scary because of that
If you specify that you're aiming specifically for an enemy's arm or eye while the target is behind partial cover... A nat 20 wouldn't automatically hit, right?
It's those Nat 19+Bless misses you gotta sweat over.
I always thought those memes were about a net 20 and not a nat 20.
I once made a boss that reversed the die roll. A dark, alien thing where the laws of the world no longer worked.
It drove the players mad
Could be disadvantage
Could be a different system, like P2e
Have I told you the tragedy of the Black Cat? A creature so foul that it turns natural 20s into natural 1s. Our Rogue caught sight of one, and merely laughed as the old woman gave her warning. He made attempts to rob a wealthy noble, and found each of his steps causing more and more noise. He's scheduled to be executed tomorrow at dawn.
For a while I had no idea a nat 20 is an auto hit and a nat 1 is an auto miss, I only knew nat 20s doubled the dice
Sorry to tell you, there doesn't hit,you never could make the DC for the save to see that it was just phantasmal force, so sorry to say, it can hit you, you can't hit it
... I just had an idea, I'm having my players fight a phantasmal force that has a high DC to get past, then they will keep fighting it until they decide to check, it is a low damage output so it would o ly slowly chip away at them, hopefully they will notice in time
as a dm i have a homebrew rule that makes a crit success or fail add or subtract 10 instead of being an auto success
Nat 20 can miss it is equivalent to getting a 40 in the Check if the ac is higher than that it can miss
Not per the rules. Nat 20's on attack rolls always hit, unless there isn't anything there to be hit.
This suit of armor is reinforced with adamantine, one of the hardest substances in existence. While you're wearing it, any critical hit against you becomes a normal hit.
This would work
It's not about a nat 20 always critting though, it's just about landing a hit
I made a cursed magic weapon that neither auto hits on a nat20 nor auto misses on a nat1. It’s called the wild axe, and I based it off of the Great Weapon Master feat. It gives you a -15 to hit but a +30 to damage. It makes it super hard to hit with, but a hit with it does insane damage. Also, a nat20 that hits is still a critical for the weapon.
> -15 to hit
Excuse me what!?
A level 20 Barbarian with 24 Strength would have a +13 to hit (excluding extra stuff from magical weapons), which means they actually have a -2 to hit. Anything with an AC of 19 or higher would be impossible to hit.
At level 10, with 20 Str, you'd have + 9 to hit, which turns into -6, so you can only hit things with an AC of 14 or lower.
This sounds awful, tbh.
Yeah, that’s the point of the curse. It’s supposed to absolutely suck unless you get help from your teammates. It wouldn’t be a primary weapon; it would be a last-ditch “we need to work together to make this work or it’s not gonna work” thing. I mostly made it as a joke.
Edit: Oh, and after looking at it, I gave it an upgrade after certain conditions are met. If you strike the killing blow on an enemy of CR 5 or higher that is wielding the axe, it gains the following benefits:
- When you roll to attack with this weapon with advantage, you can roll 3d20s and pick the highest instead of 2
-When you roll a natural 20 with this weapon, the penalty to hit is reduced to a -7, instead of a -15.
It’s still not an all-time use weapon, but it gets better to the point of more independent usability.
Does a Nat20 -1 hit? I would imagine it wouldn’t
a natural 20 hits regardless of modifiers
imagine a warforged artificer with adamantine armor who casted shield and has a shield .
so 18 + 3 cause its plus 3 armor
2 + 3 cause plus 3 shield
\+5 shield spell
\+1 cause warforged
your 20 ain't a crit cause adamantine armor
assuming max level and strength
20 + 5 + 6 = 31
31<32 there forth you miss
Nat 20. But you are fighting one of the Greater Deities in d&d. So you miss.