T O P

Hiruzen's greatest enemy: Old age.

Hiruzen's greatest enemy: Old age.

1RonnieMund

I know this is a joke but Hiruzen sealed away the first 2 Hokages not just Orochimaru's hands. What is crazy is this old man fought defensively and passively against 3 Kage level opponents and once he gets his resolve he takes out all 3...as a 70 year old man. This is Hiruzen at his absolute worst state and he manages to save the village anyway.


nobatpuns

I suppose the main difference is that, Minato at that point was still in his prime Vs Hiruzen who was very well past his prime at this point. The man did deserve more screen time to show how awesome he was in his prime as he tends to put at the bottom when comparing the kages. That being said he was written to be the best foster parent


1RonnieMund

Not only that but Hiruzen is a known softy. It was hard fighting his once beloved student. I think once he came to grips with his obligations he turned it up a notch and he still cried for Orochimaru...so sad. I think if Minato knew that was Obito he may have struggled a little more idk.


plumbus94

good point, Minato might have at least hesitated


TyrionGoldenLion

He almost got his ass beat by a truth orb by former student.


Adorable_Notice5427

Orochimaru said If he was 10 years younger (just coming out of retirement, still 60 years old) he would’ve won the fight


nobatpuns

That's why I feel we could have easily gotten a Naruto previous Kage show instead or even along with Bouto. Would have been a lot more interesting


Deathbringer2048

yeah man, like a show about the sannin in their prime, or a show on hashirama would have been amazing


nobatpuns

Imagine if filler was past stories of how each the Kage became the person they are or was chosen. This would tell us fans some stories that could determine why the Kage had come to make the decision that will shape Naruto and current leaf village future. And it could tell stories of the various Kage around the Narutoverse.


Deathbringer2048

Yeah man, i for one would love to see the 3rd tsuchikage in his prime or mini arc on the blood mist village. (


nobatpuns

Such a great pick. There are so many l legends that it could easily run for a few years with break. 1 can only dream for good content like this xD


TyrionGoldenLion

Not on Hashirama, he's not interesting enough on his own. More of an ensemble for that era.


Deathbringer2048

Yeah like a show on the God of shinobi and the strongest Uchiha with an ensemble cast of the Shinobu of the time + A young tsunade and jonin hiruzen


TyrionGoldenLion

I'd rather Hashirama and Madara be in the background tbh. They're way too much like Naruto and Sasuke but less interesting. Tobirama, Toka, Hikaku, Mito, etc should be the leads.


Dr_Nice_is_a_dick

Just a show on the senju, uzumaki and Sarutobi or maybe a show based on Sasuke Sarutobi who was a fucking beast in his day


es-em-deek69

RELEASE THE PREVIOUS KAGE CUT


LikeRealityDislike

a 100%! I wouldve also loved more about the warring states era with the different clans. I would've also loved a much more elaborate storyline with the SO6P, Indra and Ashura, I think there's tons of potential in their characters, environment etc, I quite liked the filler about Indra and Ashura (it had some problems but was overall pretty good). It would've also been really cool to see more of Shisui's upbringing and story (not the anime filler itachi arc). Why did he have mangekyo, who did he lose? His ancestor was Kagami who Tobirama said was one of the good Uchiha. How did Shisui develop his body flicker, etc etc. Even Minato and Jiraiya would've been really cool to delve into more thoroughly. Also I would've loved Naruto leading his own genin squad, that's what Shikamaru alluded to after Jiraiya had died and Shikamaru said it was time the students prepared for the next generation. I wouldve loved to see what the konoha 11 would be up to, who would lead a genin squad, who would become part of some special squad like Asuma was a Guardian Twelve, who would join the Anbu, what types of missions they'd go on etc!


nobatpuns

Exactly what I mean, there is no much untouched end content and what do we get filler that doesn't lead to anything or Boruto lol


Maanavdv

Yeah, instead we got boruto


nobatpuns

Honestly, I don't get it. I haven't watched and can't comment on it but us Naruto and Shippuden fans deserved a more deep dive in the Kages of the past


Captainprice101

Minato was like 24 and Hiruzen was damn near 70.


sir_vile

We should've got Monkey Sage Mode.


MoogleSan

Also, Hiruzen vs Orochimaru was written way earlier when Kishimoto hadnt made everyone basically overpowered, compared to how they are in early Naruto.


Bear1375

Power ceiling was terrible in naruto. I don’t blame him, to keep things interesting he had to constantly introduce stronger enemies but at one point it made all other side characters very weak.


C0UNT3RP01NT

Yeah it really got out of hand once Madara got revived.


bazhvn

Unironically the Hiruzen vs Orochimaru was much better written, more interesting than whichever big fights later in the series.


Brodimere

Meny earlier fights was better, before dbz power scaling started, more clever tactics and resource management in those fights, since nobody had limitless charkra and stamina.


KappaKingKame

Gonna have to hard disagree. I hear this argument a lot, but raising power never took away from the strategy elements, it only added to them. The later fights are all much more strategic than the earlier ones. Kakashi vs Obito, Naruto vsSasuke part 2, Madara vs the five kage, Danzo vs Sasuke, Team 7 vs Kaguya, are all more full of high quality strategy than any fight from part one Naruto.


Brodimere

Madara vs 5 kages, is just them doing basic team work and Madara just spamming whatever jutsu he wants. No attempt at any strategy, beside that. Same for most of those other fight. Danzo vs Sasuke especially have no strategy, Sasuke is litterally just using Susannoo, until Danzos gimmick runs out. Were as Neji vs Naruto, is about him having to use every trick, to outwit neji. Same for Shikamaru vs Temari or Kakashi vs Zabuza. Where they had to lure their opponent, into a false sense of security, so they would let down their guard. None of that is in later naruto. Not to mention resource management. They just start having, as much charkra andcweapons, as the plot needed. Like how Kakashi used to be bedridden for days, after just using sharigan in a single fight, to him using it almost nonstop during the war-arc.


gcz77

Naruto VS Sauske at the very end of the series. Itachi VS Sauske Sauske vs Danzo Kakashi VS Kakazu


nhansieu1

First 2 hokages who only had fraction of their power.


knam_mt

Considering his fucking demi god level, a fraction of Hashirama's strength would be still mad strong.


DisneyPrincessDVorah

Oh yeah, before they retconned power levels, Hiruzen was OP. Orochimaru knew that if Hiruzen got brought back as a young man, no one would be safe. Hiruzen got played dirty once they expanded stuff.


mgzaun

Hiruzen was supposed to have became Hokage when he was still a child/teen according to the flashback during orochimaru fight. It was retconned later however


AkatsukiSaix

What exactly was retconned? The flashback in Shippuden show exactly that Hiruzen was rather young when he became Hokage


mgzaun

[This was the OG series flashback](https://youtu.be/09Qz_JW7ELY?t=1017). On shippuden he was already a young adult. And the situation was totally different.


AkatsukiSaix

Ah ok, my bad


thedavo810

>3 Kage level opponents He fought the doodoo versions of both Hashirama and Tobirama.


1RonnieMund

You are acting like Orochimaru summoned two gennin level Tentens or something...they were still very strong or Orochimaru wouldn't have even bothered summoning them.


Logical_301

Nah they were pretty doo doo in that fight


1RonnieMund

Makes sense Orochimaru would summon them in order to take over a village then. Sure makes a lot of sense logical301.


Logical_301

Bro it’s not Orochimarus logic I’m looking at, it’s the fact that they were literally weak asf compared to their actual power which we’ve seen. They were factually ass in this fight compared to what they can actually do


Adorable_Notice5427

But still kage level


Chalaka

You're saying it based on everything we know now. That fight happened before everyone's strength was changed later in the series. They weren't "shit versions" of Hashirama and Tobirama. They were as strong as they were meant to be at the time.


Logical_301

I’m just saying that hiruzen couldn’t take them down if they were at their full power and we all know that


DarkDonut75

Yeah, but we were comparing Hiruzen to Minato. In which case, do you think Minato would be able to take down the Senju brothers at their full power?


Logical_301

He’s have a better shot than hiruzen


codeklutch

Actually, Hiruzen is considered to be as strong, if not stronger. There's a reason his students became known as the sannin.


[deleted]

You should watch the fight again,between the fight hiruzen does say that they are as strong as he remembers them.Plus there was orochimaru too,also Hashirama used deep forest immergence jutsu which is one of the best jutsu in his arsenal.And tobirama was using his water release and genjutsu.....so they were still op as hell. The most important thing is Hiruzen was in his oldage while the senju bros were in their mediocre state. Edit:- In the OG naruto, Hiruzen was known as the god of shinobi and also hiruzen was the only one among the hokage's to be revived by Orochimaru at his weak state. The old man is underrated as hell.


Logical_301

What about hashiramas buddha statue or tobiramas flying raijin or shadow clone jutsu? I’m just saying, they were hella nerfed


scarecrow1023

Still a jerk


GoodboyGotter

Hashirama did like 2 things while fighting hiru


ArgoNoots

How could Sarutobi "Foster Parent of the Century" Hiruzen possibly win against Orochimaru's almighty Roof Tile Jutsu


rockinherlife234

"I cannot let you or a clan adopt naruto because it might show favouritism" "So letting orochimaru go or not executing danzo isn't favouritism?" "I tried to stop orochimaru but my back was acting up and danzo was just getting a bit overexcited" "....."


TyrionGoldenLion

Meanwhile he did nothing to help Orochimaru when he was an increasingly unstable child. Oro needed a betyer sensei.


rockinherlife234

It's almost universally agreed that hiruzen was a fucking moron.


TyrionGoldenLion

If he were actually soft and kind, he would have helped Orochimaru. If he were firm, he would have put an end to him. Hiruzen was neither here or there. The god of half-measures, only rivaled by Hashirama.


IAmYoDaddyDuh

Right Hiruzen and Hashirama are the worse Hokages


normaldude1324

At least hashirama actually killed madara


TyrionGoldenLion

Too late.


Explodingsun136k

Not letting a clan adopt naruto might show favoritism? What fanfiction did you stumble out of?


rockinherlife234

The shit ones obviously


Explodingsun136k

Ha. I'm more of a crack fic person myself


rockinherlife234

Don't blame you, it's hard to go wrong with crack fics.


lemonylol

Don't forget he did it while he was impaled for like 30 minutes.


Cow_Other

Several hours*, those episodes of standing still went on for what felt like friggin forever ahaha


YFN-YungBoy

And summon gamabunta which naruto had to use the 9 tails chakra for


Primal_Zacama

Only for his first time summoning....as a fucking kid.


codeklutch

Fighting against a dude who literally became a fucking demon in front of him and had almost killed 2 of his friends at this point right?


YFN-YungBoy

Talking about the first time he summoned him


Shantotto11

He didn’t need Kurama’s chakra for that summoning…


YFN-YungBoy

The point is that it takes a large amount of chakra to summon him


death4life12

That dude fought Hashirama and Tobirama give him some credit


-firstinlastout-

Hashirama and Tobirama weren't on their original powerlevel when Orochimaru summoned them.


[deleted]

The ass pull Kishimito pulled.


SicWik

Also the fact that Monkey Enma was never used again was really fucking disappointing too My favorite summoning and it was only used once


bc524

My only hope for Boruto was that Konohamaru would have inherited Enma. Sigh


SicWik

Yeah he gone forever, lost in Kishimotos vast mind


hxcheyo

Remind me who was Kishimoto again?


tayterbrah

It's a kind of motorcycle or something


OrthopedicDishonesty

konohamuru got a monke but just not enma monke


hxcheyo

Wait he did?!


Soul_Ripper

A lame baby monkey IIRC


death4life12

How is that? How are their power levels different from the level in the war?


-firstinlastout-

IIRC, Orochimaru couldn't perform the reanimation jutsu perfectly, so the Hashirama and Tobirama he summoned were sub-par clones of the originals.


death4life12

Says who


Primal_Zacama

Says Kabuto. Iirc, he directly says that his version of Edo Tensei is better than Orochimaru’s. Fuck he was able to control a fuck load of shinobi and Orochimaru I only managed 2


not_some_username

Did you watch last war ? They were beast, hiruzen wouldnt do shit and also orochimaru would not be able to control them


Conscious-News-4433

The man that could destroy the village in a second was fighting on a fucking rooftop


Maanavdv

Not to mention he could literally seal away tailed beasts, and the only thing he was doing in that fight was making little trees


death4life12

Cause he wasn't trying to destroy the village


Ilivoor99

He was under Orochimaru's control. He has no choice.


Conscious-News-4433

Wasn't that exactly the plan of Orochimaru?


Demonking42069

I don't think this needs to be explained dude.


TPJchief87

I think it had something to do with using Zetsu as the base body. Orochimaru couldn’t control the 1st the second time he summoned him because he was too powerful. Or Orochi got better at the technique…I can’t remember exactly


thefreshscent

I think Kabuto perfected it for the war


TPJchief87

But I remember Orochi couldn’t stop the 1st from moving so his summon was definitely stronger the second time


thefreshscent

Did Orochimaru even do the summoning the second time? I thought that was all Kabuto.


kowski101

All the others were kabuto, but orochimaru did the first 4 hokages


ulfred500

Orochimaru did the summoning of the Hokages for Sasuke so Sasuke could hear their side. Everyone else was Kabuto


thefreshscent

Ah okay, thanks for clarifying


Ilivoor99

I think he and Kabuto perfected the jutsu during the timeskip


TyrionGoldenLion

Even then they were still weaker. Only Madars came back stronger.


tjd317

Ay, sorry People are downvoting you for asking a simple question.


Maanavdv

I mean it's a pretty obvious answer


catastrophe1224

Also hiruzen: hey I know you're starving and all naruto, but those 2 fish ya caught look pretty good so ima take one of them.


IAmYoDaddyDuh

Classic Hiruzen


sheaiscool12e4

Minato was 24 when he died, Hiruzen was nearly 70 and still managed to take down the first 2 hokage (in weakened edo). Hiruzen in his prime was considered the god of shinobi and was the strongest of the kage.


hxcheyo

Yep. Mins to was strong but so inexperienced compared to Hiruzen.


sheaiscool12e4

Experience comes with age, although Minato is a prodigy he is not as experienced as Hiruzen. Although they both fought in war(s), Hiruzen trained under the 2nd Hokage, who was a formidable shinobi.


SSj3Rambo

Sht I thought he was in his thirties, this man is an absolute legend


sheaiscool12e4

Nah bro, he was 24, he became kage at around 21 years old and died at 24 during the nine tails attack.


SSj3Rambo

Damn the dude mastered fuinjutsu, learnt flying raijin and perfected it, invented rasengan, got by far the record of chunin exams, killed 1000 men in the ninja war and got a wife all in his teenage years


sheaiscool12e4

Mans was mad, even in the 4th war: Minato: "Im not very good at sage mode" Also Minato: \*Goes into sage mode within a second"


SSj3Rambo

I think this kind of character is so ahead of their time that they speedrun their life


IAmYoDaddyDuh

So I've read all the comments and between the Uchiha fanlords, Hiruzen apologist and Minato haters. I think in all fairness Hiruzen was way past his prime against Orochimaru and Minato never reached his prime. All in all this is a would if scenario. If Hiruzen was in his prime he would have stopped Orochimaru completely, but could he have stopped Kurama? If Minato never died the Leaf village would have halted a couple of invasions. Minato taking on Orochimaru during the Chunnin exams would have ended instantly i.e if we take in to account this is after the 9tails attack, he would have half of Kurama in him. I think each Hokage is unique and besides Tsunade, Danzo, Kakashi each can give each other a run for their money


RedShankyMan

you're underestimating Hokage Kakashi, he's far surpassed prime Hiruzen and can contend with Tobi for 4th strongest kage


IAmYoDaddyDuh

We never saw prime Hiruzen. And Hokage Kakashi does not have both Sharingans, so idk how he's beating Hiruzen let alone contending with Tobirama


RedShankyMan

He can do everything Hirzuen can do, has much much more chakra, much much better chakra control, much much more speed, is much much much more intelligent, is way better at Taijutsu and genjutsu and medical Jutsu. He’s basically Hirzuen 3.0 In both scaling and feats Hokage Kakashi surpasses Hiruzen to a massive degree


IAmYoDaddyDuh

Where has Kakashi shown or been said to have more chakra than Hiruzen? Where has the same been proven for chakra control? In scaling Hiruzen outweighs Kakashi. Like i said are we talking about Hokage Kakashi? Because Prime Hiruzen is stated far above almost all the Hokages.


RedShankyMan

He shows he has more chakra than Hiruzen when he puts up a 1 day mud wall around the whole village, a chakra feat thought to be impossible for anyone but a Jinchuriki. He shows he has more chakra control than anybody to ever live save Hagoromo when he uses the quartz wall. That statement for Hiruzen was from part 1, and has been retconned. Kakashi’s growth post Shippuden is so massive that he can slap the shit out of any part 1 character using a shadow clone honestly, and nobody is going to believe a statement that says Hirzuen is stronger than Hashirama


gok2hu

>He shows he has more chakra control than anybody to ever live save Hagoromo WTF I nearly burst out laughing😂😂 Kakashi has more chakra than anyone save Hagoromo? Are you on crack? Have you heard of characters like, Rinne-Sharingan Madara? Juubito? Or most importantly.... NARUTO?! literally stated by characters in the show and the author to have near unlimited chakra? We are talking about Hokage Kakashi dude. Face it. Without any sharingan, he falls short in power scaling department of the Hokages. I really like the character, but you idiots just wank the shit out of Kakashi sometimes.


RedShankyMan

I didn’t say he had more chakra, he had better chakra control. Did you even read the statement? He’s stronger without that sharingan than he was with it. The sharingan was like a massive weight to him. It drained 75% of the dude’s chakra. In exchange for the use of 1 op Jutsu. Power scaling wise he is literally stated by kishimoto to have gotten stronger without sharingan than he was in war arc.


gok2hu

>I didn’t say he had more chakra, he had better chakra control. You do realize that characters that have Yin-Yang release have the pinnacle of Chakra control regardless of how large their reserves are? Naruto, Madara, Juubito all have access to Yin-Yang release and This Kekkei Genkai is one of the reasons Hagoromo was so OP. And Hokage Kakashi has.... Regular ass Chakra and some new techniques in his arsenal soo.... What's your fucking point? You all like to brag around that Prime Hiruzen is just Hypothetical and it isn't shown how powerful he is. Well, so is Hokage Kakashi. He has gotten stronger according to the light novels but were not told how strong. So it's a bit tough for us to believe from such a vague statement that Kakashi made the jump from just below KCM2 Naruto to Fucking Hagoromo level. I'm sorry just raising large mud walls isn't enough to propell him up to the Higher level kages. Mud walls? Well Hashirama summoned up a One thousands armed Wooden buddha statue that can easily destroy a susanoo armored Kyuubi. So i guess that makes Hashirama SSJ Goku level right?😑 come on man.....


RedShankyMan

just read the novels man. Kakashi’s chakra control is stated to be so high that it was thought fictional. He also has Ying Yang release as well. And the way you dismiss chakra feats is stupid: ‘It’s just a big windball, rasenshuriken is nothing special’


RedShankyMan

Almost all kage? You telling me prime Hirzuen is stronger than Minato and Tobirama? Name me 1 feat that shows that. It’s stupid wank. Prime Hiruzen is a hypothetical character that at best would be just above the 3rd Raikage in terms of fighting ability


IAmYoDaddyDuh

I'd say Prime Hiruzen over all except Naruto, Hashi, Tobi, Minato. And remember power scale and who'd actually win are two different things. I mean Kisame had a hell of a lot of chakra but he's definitely not beating Kakashi.


RedShankyMan

Prime Hiruzen falls under Hokage Kakashi though. There is not a single thing that Hiruzen can do that Kakashi cannot do better, more proficiently and faster. And Kakashi as Hokage has Jutsu that Hiruzen can not perform, hell that no one can preform, because they are so advanced. I don’t think Hiruzen ever goes above Tobirama either. Knowing a bunch of Jutsu and how to counter techniques well doesn’t give an edge over FTG


Lancaster1719

Imagine memeing on someone who pretty much pulled a DKO against three Kage level opponents while old as shit and a fraction of his strength in his prime.


thedavo810

The hokage summoned weren´t even near their prime tho.


Lancaster1719

Doesn’t matter. They were still very much S-Class Shinobi even without their full strength. Want me to throw out a little tidbit? That feat doesn’t get surpassed until Naruto beats Pain. And Sage Naruto was capable of slapping around Kurama and doing a PKO on the strongest Raikage of history. Hell, Edo Hiruzen knocked back Guru Guru, who was using the 1000 Armed Kan’on, making him a Bijuu level threat. And this is a weakened version of Old Hiruzen, when we’re directly told that Old Hiruzen was a shadow of his former strength


tjd317

👏 well said


TyrionGoldenLion

Hiruzen had more feats than Minato who is way too overhyped


Lancaster1719

The only thing Living Minato has on Old Hiruzen is youth and Flying Raijin. Prime Hiruzen would absolutely smack any Hokage except for that obvious two just based on scaling. Orochimaru outright says that if Hiruzen were as strong as he was when Oro left the village during the Chuunin Exams, Hiruzen would’ve slapped him and his Edos. And this is almost 5 years *after* Hiruzen originally stepped down due to losing too much of his strength to age. The scaling on Prime Hiruzen boggles the mind.


TyrionGoldenLion

Hiruzen was said to be familiar with every Konoha jutsu so he probably can think of a counter especially as his own sensei came up with it. Minato isn't that special tbh. He's just type. Dare I say, in living primes, he's the weakest Hokage.


AkatsukiSaix

The issue with comparison in strength is that they each have something to counteract the other. Hashirama has the best healing and overall power strength and chakra, but Tobirama had the biggest collection of Jutsus, since he created like 80% of the jutsus the village knows, Hiruzen, well we don't actually see or get told where his strength lies in, but it probably has to do with knowing all the jutsus and quick thinking and his summon, while Minato has the fastest reflexes, speed, and overall understanding of his fights, and then knowing some top tier sealing jutsus only helps. Minato is basically a glass canon, since his chakra reserves aren't as busted as the previous 3, and his speed is what gave him the edge against everyone else. Also, Hiruzen did raise the Sanin as his student squad, so he gets some credit for that, even if they gained more feats from other sources. Its like how Kakashi clearly gets outranked by his students, but he's still seen as powerful because he was their teacher (and his own feats obviously)


Soul_Ripper

The real issue with comparing strength is that Naruto's power scaling is terrible and it has powercreep out the wazoo


AkatsukiSaix

It wasn't as bad pre Shippuden


TyrionGoldenLion

>Minato has the fastest reflexes, speed, and overall understanding of his fights, Tobirama's SHADOW CLONE outdid Minato in terms of reactions and speed. Even EMS Sasuke had better reflexes. Minato is highly overhyped.


Lancaster1719

I wouldn’t say that. He’s clearly on top of Kakashi or Tsunade, unless we mean DMS, and I’d edge him against Living Tobirama


GreenOOFChicken

I think living Tobirama is stronger based mostly on the scaling of the eras, the warring clans era was fucking insane and I dont think Tobirama couldve survived around Madara without being at least stronger than Minato, shame that we dont have a lot of information on either.


Rikuddo

It would've been absolutely awesome to have a full show focused on that warring era. The politics, power levels and colorful casts of characters would've made it an amazing show.


TyrionGoldenLion

Would have been a seinin show or at least a shonen of FMA calibre.


RedShankyMan

Saying he's on top of Hokage Kakashi is just plain bullshit. The only Hokage weaker than Hiruzen is Tsunade. All the Hokage are strong but Hashi, Naruto, Minato and Kakashi are busted due to scaling and hax


Lancaster1719

Does Hokage Kakashi actually have any feats?


RedShankyMan

Yes actually. They are all in novels, and the feats are absolutely insane. 1. Purple lightning 2. Flame bird 3. Reaction so fast that Jonin level opponents did not believe he actually lost the sharingan 4. Held a mud wall for over 24 hours that encompassed all of Konica. Nobody believed that anything over half a day that could cover only 3 shinobi was even humanly possible. 5. Quartz wall. The most difficult Jutsu in existence. This Jutsu is so advanced it makes rasenshuriken look like a genie technique. 6.Defeating like 50 chunin with fryinpan Jutsu


RedShankyMan

Kakashi also has base feats (from Shippuden) that show his speed is actually insanely high, faster than the 4th Raikage and KCM1 Naruto. (Also purple lightning gives a speed buff that would put him above the speed of SoSPM, a speed which he has already shown in the fight against Kaguya using Kamui raikiri)


RedShankyMan

I nearly forgot how much this sub wanks Hiruzen


shittaco1991

Hilarious


metal_zero

As much as I disliked Hiruzen as a Hokage, as a fighter he was beast in his prime, mastered all chakra nature.but here he was old and also was not in active combat for long time


amrak_karma

old age is a bad argument, ohnoki is quite a bit older and yte his feats completely shits on hiruzen....


Eyebrowchild

Yep, ohnoki is definitely capable despite his age


bigflokac

Minato in a league of his own


fwopples

This post is severely underrating hiruzen and his accomplishments that fight lmao.


islandman101

Hiruzen would’ve given Orochimaru’s soul to the reaper if he was 10 years younger.


Abhimanyu_Uchiha

Hiruzen is definitely stronger than kakashi and tsunade, arguably tobirama and minato, in his prime. It's only Hashi and Naruto above him.


Mephiles343

I also hate how some give tobirama shit,I like tobirama,Dude was neat


tjd317

Sure was, I love water release. His severing wave is one of my favorite jutsu in the series.


IAmYoDaddyDuh

Tobirama was not racist. He's actually one of the top 3 best Hokages.


TyrionGoldenLion

Only biased Uchiha stans give him shit. Smart people know Tobirama is awesome.


GreenOOFChicken

I recognise your name in every comment section as a fellow Tobirama fan


Explodingsun136k

Ah yes being a racist piece of shit makes him so awesome


SSj3Rambo

He wasn't racist lmao, you can't understand his feelings when he lost his siblings and all in a long war against historical enemies. He still wasn't biased because of it since he admitted himself that the Uchihas were good people with strong emotions but that a grief can make them unstable. It's hilarious how people treat Tobirama like a piece of shit but Madara who betrayed Hashirama several times is "badass" bla bla bla. Tobirama even made the Uchiahs the police of Konoha so that they are more integrated and feel respected in the village.


Brodimere

That is true, to some extent. But he also pushed them to the outside of the village and didnt give them much political power. Do to his distrust/sligt bias against Uchihas. Which given his upbringing, is an insane level of selv-control. He was raised to hate them and kill on sight, lost countless friends and family to Uchiha, still agreed to work with them.


TyrionGoldenLion

Danzo was the one [who pushed out the Uchiha and only after Kyuubi's attack.](https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-3f2c9d92d293cafeee15dbc25ceedbc3) It was decades after Tobirama's death and had nothing to do with him.


Brodimere

Damn, havent read naruto in a long time, thought for sure, that was tobirama, that had pushed them aside, since he didnt fully trust. Do to theim loving their clan and members more than the village. Well then, he had even better selvcontrol, than I thought.


SSj3Rambo

Tobirama is a really misunderstood guy. He didn't even hate Uchihas anymore, he was just on his guard which was legitimate, just look at all the mess Madara and Obito created for stupid reasons, only two Uchihas with MS did all that shit. It was also legitimate to frame the Uchiha clan in the police department, so that they feel integrated and can be supervised as well.


Explodingsun136k

He wasn't just racist he was hilariously racist. Did you forget how he made them incharge of the police only so that it would remove them from the actual power structure of the village? And yes the Uchiha did kill his siblings but so did the senju kill madara's family. And madara was willing to put in the honest effort to attain peace alongside Hashirama, even though Hashirama's brother killed his brother. He bailed later on only after realising what a mistake he had made and a mistake it was indeed seeing how uchiha ended up. Also we call madara cool and badass becuase he is. So is Tobirama. That said, both are trash human beings.


Familiar_Pay_3933

Tobirama did say that uchihas with sharingan have a high chance of going mad when they see a loved one being killed, if you see the anime. It wouldn't make any reason to keep potential madmen in the village beside innocents, especially in times of war when loved ones die left and right


Explodingsun136k

Here's the bullshit justification now. Pooh.


Familiar_Pay_3933

Now really, you call him racist when all of them descended from otsusuki hagoromo. And orochimaru is the one who accuses tobirama, the same orochimaru who tricked sunagakure and konoha, and also did off with the kazekage and hokage. And people choose to believe him rather than tobirama when tobirama even says that he has no prejudice towards uchihas. It's danzo who exploited tobirama's deeds. Tobirama did it for the village while danzo did it for himself.


SSj3Rambo

Yeah that was also the point, putting the Uchihas in an appropriate environment to make them feel well in the village, all while supervising them and not having unstable Uchihas scattered. If he was really racist, he'd be the one ordering the Uchiha massacre, but he never did. >And yes the Uchiha did kill his siblings but so did the senju kill madara's family. That's why he wasn't biased and considered it as a story in the past. >And madara was willing to put in the honest effort to attain peace alongside Hashirama, even though Hashirama's brother killed his brother. Then after finally getting peace and building the village, Madara started betraying again. But I guess Tobirama is racist piece of shit and Madara is badass respectable character, amirite.


Explodingsun136k

Ah yes, putting the undesirable and according to him "unstables" in one spot isn't terribly racist at all no. Only when you murder yhem all do you get pasted with that label. Maybe you're forgetting but the Leaf village was the Village of both the Senjus and the Uchihas. It was not the senjus' to lord themselves over the uchiha and not for tobirama to impose his racist beliefs over them. Madara left after he realised what would happen to the uchiha. How tobirama would become hokage after Hashirama and that the Uchihas would always be under them. And was he right or was he wrong considering how the village drove the Uchihas to the point of rebellion and then massacred them? Also maybe read the last paragraph from my post.


SSj3Rambo

It's not racist because that's the truth, and it's not like Tobirama was doing a "bad discrimination", all he did was founding departments of the village and assigning one clan for the police. The Uchihas were very proud of their job and things were going all well until the Kyuubi attack and Danzo spreading rumors. If anyone was racist to the Uchihas, it was Danzo. And Madara didn't just leave, he literally betrayed the village, fought Hashirama then plotted the rest of his life against Konoha. He didn't give two shits and the other Uchiha he hired was creating the same mess over a girl. Madara's only motivation was to create infinite tsukiyomi, both threatened to destroy the world over stupid reasons. That's just 2 Uchihas being the cause of nearly everything bad that happened in Naruto.


TyrionGoldenLion

Madara was a power hungry bastard and the reason Uchiha were doomed. Try harder.


Explodingsun136k

I'm sure it had nothing to do with notoriously racist tobirama who's own brother berated him for his treatment of the uchiha


Familiar_Pay_3933

Yea sure if he was racist you actually think he would have an uchiha as his subordinate?


Explodingsun136k

??? Did you REALLY just say that? This black/brown person isn't like the others. Sound familiar?


TyrionGoldenLion

Did you just compare black/brown people to a clan of batshit assholes? Get help.


Explodingsun136k

You want to talk like a retarded trash bag? Keep talking like that loser. If you can't argue without crying like a bitch and insulting people you're the one who needs help. Batshit by who's definition? The racist cunt who had sown the seeds leading to all of them getting segregated and then annihilated?


TyrionGoldenLion

Not kissing Uchiha's asses doesn't make him racist.


Explodingsun136k

Treating them like trash does


RedShankyMan

no way at all is he stronger than Hokage Kakashi or Minato. Hiruzen is the 6th strongest hokage. There is no possible method of scaling or hype that could put him over Kakashi as hokage, but he was definitely stronger than Tsunade.


Abhimanyu_Uchiha

Hokage Kakashi doesn’t have the sharingan, so no kamui, and the chidori is an incomplete jutsu once again. He’s weaker than any other version of Kakashi. Hiruzen is definitely stronger than hokage Kakashi. Living Minato is debateable, sage Minato is stronger than hiruzen.


hedahero

Hiruzen was 70..


Explodingsun136k

Minato didn't need to die at all. None of the other nine tails jinchurikis had the beast sealed in them using the reaper death seal. He could have used a regular ass jutsu and sealed it up but noooooooo. At least hiruzen didn't die by getting literally NAILED to death. Jeez


Brodimere

Well being a single dad, with a baby is a drag, can we really blame him from nopeing out of that and Boruto? Bigger question, who raised naruto as a baby?


TyrionGoldenLion

>who raised naruto as a baby? Naruto


IAmYoDaddyDuh

I mean Hiruzen had the sword in him that almost ended him if it weren't for Monkey King...


Captainprice101

Hiruzen actually did a lot of damage to Orochimaru. He sealed away his arms that didn’t allow him to do jutsu. If he didn’t do this and Orochimaru won, no one would stop Orochimaru from destroying the village (except maybe Jiraiya). Orochimaru didn’t get his arms back until the war arc when he reanimated the 4 Hokage


Monoshi

Meanwhile villains still ready to end the world over one hashirama cell


existential_dread467

A good joke on this sub? Nani!!


Anakiris

To be fair he did get stabbed in the chest


brick_bones

The reason I like Hiruzen? He was hand picked and trained by Tobirama and Hashirama to become Hokage one day because they saw the genius and potential he had, he surpassed Tobirama at a young age and when he said that he was the strongest of them all so he would be the decoy nobody including Tobirama denied it, and Tobirama decided to make him the next Hokage. Only Danzo’s jealous ass tried to argue. Hiruzen didn’t have KKG, Senjutsu, or a tailed beast and he wasn’t a Senju, Uzumaki or Otsutsuki yet he earned the title God of Shinobi and The Professor based off his power, skill and intellect. Only two others have had the God of Shinobi title.. Hagoromo and Hashirama. Hiruzen was just cursed with horrendous aging genes. In his prime he was a monster, though he was a compassionate one and that’s why Danzo and Orochimaru got away with the bullshit they did. Now if only Konohamaru could have inherited his power and skill..


Cow_Other

To be fair, Hiruzen was holding back in that fight because he still cared for his student, still impressive to hold back and achieve that against Orochimaru of all people