Damn, 10 degree of kinship sound harsh AF. Not that it is uniquely chinese, vietnam which is in sinosphere also have this kind of execution. Anyway I am not well versed of chinese history, but beside Zhang He expedition, what unique characteristic of Yongle reign would you think you make it into his leader ability?
Yeah you are right, executing 10 degrees of kinship is horrendous and Yongle is very severely criticised by historians even in his own time. And it wasn't like these innocent people were simply beheaded or hanged, the method of execution was absolutely brutal - lots of them were sliced to pieces alive. That's why, despite Yongle's achievements in running the country, I am really not a fan of him. And that's kinda true for many of the leaders in civ as well - great leader but horrible person. Elimination of one's entire lineage definitely exists in all countries within the sinosphere as well, including Korea and Japan.
Hmm great question about his potential abilities, I sort of anticipate the devs going for the naval and trade bonuses as those are the ones most familiar with the international audience. Besides that, he could also be a wonder and cultural powerhouse like Qin Shi Huang, as he built loads of things in addition to the Forbidden City, like the Porcelain Tower, and also renovated the Great Canal. The other unique angle would be diplomacy and espionage, as Zheng He's expeditions were actually diplomatic efforts (mostly showcasing Ming's power to the surrounding countries), so I can see him getting some sort of diplomatic favour / envoy bonuses. And spies are obvious, but I suspect Wu Zetian might get spy bonuses as well. There could also be an emphasis on domestic trade routes, as the renovation of the Canal was an effort to facilitate tax collection and food distribution, so like Tokugawa but perhaps getting more production and food bonuses, instead of culture and science.
Wow, thank you. you definitely passionate about writting your answer. Any chance historian or just histort fan haha.
A famous case of linage execution in vietnam was back in the later Le dynasty. After the successful Lam Sơn rebellion against the Ming dynasty, Lê Lợi (leader of said rebellion) was crowded king and paid a visit to his close confidant, the writer and politician, Nguyễn Trãi, who had already retire from court matter. Anyway the king died (the current attribution is assumed to be the stroke), but the his successor immedietly assume that Nguyễn Trãi concubine, lady Lộ, whom some historian suspect the king has some affair with, poisoned him. 3 lines was executed, although later the court issued a formal vindication and allow a surviving member to work inside the court. Regardless, the case is still consider to be a mystery. Some historian assume that the successor take advantage of this to kill Trãi, who had gained a lot of admiration for his contribution toward the rebellion. Some assume lady Lộ was the victim of the king consort. Some think lady Lộ was actually the killer, while Trãi was not. We might never know for sure.
At this rate I think Qin will be conqueror, Wu tie religion and espionage and Yongle possible culture and diplomatic. Well we will se soon enough.
Haha thank you! I’m not a historian, just a history enthusiast - although my profession is in geology and you can argue that geology is the study of the Earth’s history too lol. The example of lineage execution in Vietnam is very interesting to read - I believe I saw a very brief account of the same incident on Wikipedia but not in such details. My knowledge about Vietnamese history is extremely limited but I do enjoy reading Hàn-Si written by Vietnamese authors, so I should probably read more about the historical context behind them! And I think your predictions about the three new leaders are accurate now that the update has been released. Happy Lunar New Year!
I don't wanna see more trade bonuses in the leader pass, we already got Nader Shah and Tokugawa. Maybe Yongle's ability will focus on military, wonder building, or loyalty, but the former two are similar to Qin( unifier Qin should be his military persona). I think higher production toward spy and additional loyalty in cities that have spies can be a proper ability.
Only problem with that is that Wu seems likely to have an ability in that vein. I like the idea of him getting a more naval/exploration focused ability, or maybe something about loyalty and wonders -- more loyalty in cities that either have wonders, are producing wonders, or have produced one within the last 5 turns, maybe.
Diplomatic bonuses would be cool too, given that Zheng He explorations were essentially a diplomatic effort. Like getting envoys or diplomatic flavours with trade routes, naval units or certain buildings, and having extra diplomatic visibility etc.
I don't understand how that wouldn't lead to rebellion. Ruling via fear is one thing, but knowing that the actions of someone you have almost no connection to could lead to your execution seems like it would inspire resentment instead. After all, if you might be executed anyway why not "earn" that execution.
You are actually right to an extent, ruling by horror was commonplace in the early Ming and Qing Dynasties but eventually they did not prevent uprising when things go really wrong. Yongle got away with it because the Ming Dynasty was in its early stages of development and a lot of the problems haven't surfaced. Also, he mostly killed within the scholar class, and commoners were not as affected. Ming Dynasty China also saw the imperial power (that is, the power of the emperor himself) maturing to an absolute extreme, to the point that almost all the power were seized by the emperor, which got carried along to the Qing Dynasty. This was not quite possible in earlier dynasties when emperors often struggle with strong ministers or aristocratic families sharing away too much power. It is impossible to have someone as powerful as Cao Cao or Dong Zhuo (which were warlords and ministers at the same time in the Eastern Han, very well-known and popularised by the Three Kingdoms stories) in Ming and Qing. The emperors also went out of their way to prevent the scholars and officials from forming bonds and 'political parties', which kind of helped to prevent rebellions to a certain extent. Although it is definitely not sustainable, as late Ming Dynasty saw A LOT of factional politics.
That's one of the problems I see with the current Pinyin system. We really should have romanised every single Chinese character separately lol, instead of clumping them together.
Hey thanks for this! All incredibly fascinating, and I’m like to think of myself as a history buff but I must admit I’m not as well versed in eastern history so again thanks!
Definitely happy to see, what I hope to be, a naval exploration civ as those are what I prefer.
Just as a devils advocate, probably much less fully informed than you but studied Chinese imperial history for a while, I'd note that the scholar-officials could very well be considered a political faction of their own, and one that often dominated dynasties (especially once the Emperor's inevitably stopped caring about ruling rather than leisure).
They may have tended towards less outright corruption and cruelty compared to the eunuchs - although there are still plenty of incidents of both from them - but at the same time, by the nature of how they became scholar-officials they tended to be Confucian ideologues and conservative in policy preference, steering the state towards an inwards-looking direction and stagnation. Yongle's rule saw perhaps the peak of controlled eunuch power, and the Ming had influence from Korea to the Swahili Coast in Africa, and even toppled a monarchy in Sri Lanka for their local allies.
There's also the usual factor in history of keeping who writes the history books in mind: the scholar-officials.
Nice read, how do you pronounce Yong Le?
Also if you want to pronounce it properly with tones, it is Yǒng (3rd tone) Lè (4th tone) in Chinese.
Pleasure! Closest pronunciation to Yong would be /juŋ/ (as in ‘Yung’) and Le is pronounced /lə/.
Too late. His name rhymes with “dongle” now. Thanks, Civ!
Lol it is definitely hard not to pronounce it that way at first sight
Cool, I’ll remember that one so I don’t say it in my head wrong! Tonnage too
I thought I was pretty smart for not pronouncing it like “Dongle,” but now I feel dumb for pronouncing it like the *Bloodsport* villain Chong Li.
Thank you so much for this!! As someone else said, I am trying hard to not rhyme it with "dongle." Knowing the correct pronunciation helps a lot.
It's definitely okay to have some fun rhyming it with dongle :)
Long O sound in Yong, like you're saying 'Yo man' but add 'ng' and the schwa sound for the E in Le
Damn, 10 degree of kinship sound harsh AF. Not that it is uniquely chinese, vietnam which is in sinosphere also have this kind of execution. Anyway I am not well versed of chinese history, but beside Zhang He expedition, what unique characteristic of Yongle reign would you think you make it into his leader ability?
Yeah you are right, executing 10 degrees of kinship is horrendous and Yongle is very severely criticised by historians even in his own time. And it wasn't like these innocent people were simply beheaded or hanged, the method of execution was absolutely brutal - lots of them were sliced to pieces alive. That's why, despite Yongle's achievements in running the country, I am really not a fan of him. And that's kinda true for many of the leaders in civ as well - great leader but horrible person. Elimination of one's entire lineage definitely exists in all countries within the sinosphere as well, including Korea and Japan. Hmm great question about his potential abilities, I sort of anticipate the devs going for the naval and trade bonuses as those are the ones most familiar with the international audience. Besides that, he could also be a wonder and cultural powerhouse like Qin Shi Huang, as he built loads of things in addition to the Forbidden City, like the Porcelain Tower, and also renovated the Great Canal. The other unique angle would be diplomacy and espionage, as Zheng He's expeditions were actually diplomatic efforts (mostly showcasing Ming's power to the surrounding countries), so I can see him getting some sort of diplomatic favour / envoy bonuses. And spies are obvious, but I suspect Wu Zetian might get spy bonuses as well. There could also be an emphasis on domestic trade routes, as the renovation of the Canal was an effort to facilitate tax collection and food distribution, so like Tokugawa but perhaps getting more production and food bonuses, instead of culture and science.
Wow, thank you. you definitely passionate about writting your answer. Any chance historian or just histort fan haha. A famous case of linage execution in vietnam was back in the later Le dynasty. After the successful Lam Sơn rebellion against the Ming dynasty, Lê Lợi (leader of said rebellion) was crowded king and paid a visit to his close confidant, the writer and politician, Nguyễn Trãi, who had already retire from court matter. Anyway the king died (the current attribution is assumed to be the stroke), but the his successor immedietly assume that Nguyễn Trãi concubine, lady Lộ, whom some historian suspect the king has some affair with, poisoned him. 3 lines was executed, although later the court issued a formal vindication and allow a surviving member to work inside the court. Regardless, the case is still consider to be a mystery. Some historian assume that the successor take advantage of this to kill Trãi, who had gained a lot of admiration for his contribution toward the rebellion. Some assume lady Lộ was the victim of the king consort. Some think lady Lộ was actually the killer, while Trãi was not. We might never know for sure. At this rate I think Qin will be conqueror, Wu tie religion and espionage and Yongle possible culture and diplomatic. Well we will se soon enough.
Haha thank you! I’m not a historian, just a history enthusiast - although my profession is in geology and you can argue that geology is the study of the Earth’s history too lol. The example of lineage execution in Vietnam is very interesting to read - I believe I saw a very brief account of the same incident on Wikipedia but not in such details. My knowledge about Vietnamese history is extremely limited but I do enjoy reading Hàn-Si written by Vietnamese authors, so I should probably read more about the historical context behind them! And I think your predictions about the three new leaders are accurate now that the update has been released. Happy Lunar New Year!
I don't wanna see more trade bonuses in the leader pass, we already got Nader Shah and Tokugawa. Maybe Yongle's ability will focus on military, wonder building, or loyalty, but the former two are similar to Qin( unifier Qin should be his military persona). I think higher production toward spy and additional loyalty in cities that have spies can be a proper ability.
Only problem with that is that Wu seems likely to have an ability in that vein. I like the idea of him getting a more naval/exploration focused ability, or maybe something about loyalty and wonders -- more loyalty in cities that either have wonders, are producing wonders, or have produced one within the last 5 turns, maybe.
Diplomatic bonuses would be cool too, given that Zheng He explorations were essentially a diplomatic effort. Like getting envoys or diplomatic flavours with trade routes, naval units or certain buildings, and having extra diplomatic visibility etc.
I don't understand how that wouldn't lead to rebellion. Ruling via fear is one thing, but knowing that the actions of someone you have almost no connection to could lead to your execution seems like it would inspire resentment instead. After all, if you might be executed anyway why not "earn" that execution.
Staging a rebellion isn't simple. And the punishment were extremely rare with only a few cases recorded in history.
You are actually right to an extent, ruling by horror was commonplace in the early Ming and Qing Dynasties but eventually they did not prevent uprising when things go really wrong. Yongle got away with it because the Ming Dynasty was in its early stages of development and a lot of the problems haven't surfaced. Also, he mostly killed within the scholar class, and commoners were not as affected. Ming Dynasty China also saw the imperial power (that is, the power of the emperor himself) maturing to an absolute extreme, to the point that almost all the power were seized by the emperor, which got carried along to the Qing Dynasty. This was not quite possible in earlier dynasties when emperors often struggle with strong ministers or aristocratic families sharing away too much power. It is impossible to have someone as powerful as Cao Cao or Dong Zhuo (which were warlords and ministers at the same time in the Eastern Han, very well-known and popularised by the Three Kingdoms stories) in Ming and Qing. The emperors also went out of their way to prevent the scholars and officials from forming bonds and 'political parties', which kind of helped to prevent rebellions to a certain extent. Although it is definitely not sustainable, as late Ming Dynasty saw A LOT of factional politics.
I know doesn’t rhyme with dongle, but seeing the two characters as one word messes with my head every time
That's one of the problems I see with the current Pinyin system. We really should have romanised every single Chinese character separately lol, instead of clumping them together.
I originally read it that way as well and thought "that doesn't sound very Chinese. Maybe it's a foreign nickname"
Chinese players call him Judy because it sounds exactly like his name Zhu Di.
Lol my friend calls him Judy. Given that how terrifying he actually is this is kinda cute.
Hey thanks for this! All incredibly fascinating, and I’m like to think of myself as a history buff but I must admit I’m not as well versed in eastern history so again thanks! Definitely happy to see, what I hope to be, a naval exploration civ as those are what I prefer.
Thank you! Yeah I really look forward to a China civ that is distinct from the usual portrayals.
I have seen the Ming Dynasty Cdrama so many of these things are familiar Higly recommend
If you are interested in Ming history I recommend watching *Ming Dynasty in 1566*. IMO it is one of the best history drama ever produced in China.
What is the name of the show?
Ming Dynasty It's available on YouTube It's quite long and sometimes bloated, but I found it pretty enjoyable
Thanks!
Ha my wife and I just named our son YongLe, more because we like the meaning than after the emperor.
Congrats on the new addition to your family! Yongle is a great name.
Thanks! :)
mf named yongle
Really interesting read, thanks very much. The Yongle encyclopaedia was particularly interesting.
Thanks :)
Just as a devils advocate, probably much less fully informed than you but studied Chinese imperial history for a while, I'd note that the scholar-officials could very well be considered a political faction of their own, and one that often dominated dynasties (especially once the Emperor's inevitably stopped caring about ruling rather than leisure). They may have tended towards less outright corruption and cruelty compared to the eunuchs - although there are still plenty of incidents of both from them - but at the same time, by the nature of how they became scholar-officials they tended to be Confucian ideologues and conservative in policy preference, steering the state towards an inwards-looking direction and stagnation. Yongle's rule saw perhaps the peak of controlled eunuch power, and the Ming had influence from Korea to the Swahili Coast in Africa, and even toppled a monarchy in Sri Lanka for their local allies. There's also the usual factor in history of keeping who writes the history books in mind: the scholar-officials.
The family members, friends, and students got absolutely yongled.
Damn, the dude was wild. He seemed so chill on the promotion picture.