T O P

CMV: A "Health Pass" and other mandates are pointless, over-reaching, authoritarian, and will achieve nothing/next to nothing.

CMV: A "Health Pass" and other mandates are pointless, over-reaching, authoritarian, and will achieve nothing/next to nothing.

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pluralofjackinthebox

While breakthrough infections are possible, you are [8 times less likely to be infected](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html) if you’re vaccinated. You’re also probably going to be [less infectious if you are vaccinated, and infectious for a shorter period of time.](https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/effectiveness/why-measure-effectiveness/breakthrough-cases.html) While vaccinated people are “100% capable” of spreading coronavirus, they are nowhere near *as capable* as the unvaccinated — who are over 800% more capable of spreading it.


jawminator

I'd need to see the actual study, is I don't know how they obtain those numbers. It could be that they are taking the raw number of hospitalizations and extrapolating likely hood of infection from "number of infected - vaccinated vs. number of infected - unvaccinated"... If that number is truly accurate, and accurate for delta, then thats a delta. But i need to see the study and from a quick search I couldn't find it. It may also be a different scenario in Canada because many people here got mixed doses (eg. one from Pfizer one from AstraZeneca) which _could_ effect the efficacy of the vaccine, though I'm not sure about that. Mixing vaccines never seemed right to me...


pluralofjackinthebox

The CDC is just extrapolating from raw data. There are studies from Israel on the efficacy of vaccination in lowering the infection rate — like [this one](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.12.21260377v1): > Vaccine efficacy on the risk of infection was estimated to 80% after the 2nd dose, and vaccine efficacy on the risk of transmission if infected was estimated to 49% 21 days after the 1st dose. and [this one](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.13.21260393v1): > Vaccine effectiveness against susceptibility to infection was 80-88%. For breakthrough infections among vaccinated individuals, the vaccine effectiveness against infectiousness was 41-79%. The overall vaccine effectiveness against transmission was 88.5%. Vaccination provides substantial protection against susceptibility to infection and slightly lower protection against infectiousness given infection, thereby reducing transmission of SARS-CoV-2 to household contacts.


jawminator

Thank you !delta Edit: had to describe why the delta. You provided a study based on the previous comment.


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Spaffin

I have to ask... were you under the impression that the vaccine didn't work?


jawminator

I know it works to reduce symptoms. Viral loads are similar in vaccinated/unvaccinated which to my knowledge means there is as much covid in both persons, thus transmissibility should be the same. If this study is true then I was under a false impression, hence the delta.


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[deleted]

>We have the right to medical privacy: If I have a sexually transmitted infection (especially one that is untreated), it doesn't mean that I have the right to medical privacy and not inform my potential sexual partner. If they receive this information and still wishes to lay with me -- it's on them. Similarly, the health pass is meant to show that one is "treated" or "vaccinated" and that these businesses have agreed to interact with them. Of course, there'll always be a risk of Covid infection/spread and possibly even mutation, but it's an informed decision.


jawminator

I see as a bit different than STI's, as in: you can't protect against STI's, but if someone is vaccinated, they are mostly protected from covid whether they are interacting with a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. If the person is vaccinated then the risk of it passing to them through either is the same.


[deleted]

>if someone is vaccinated, they are mostly protected from covid whether they are interacting with a vaccinated or unvaccinated person. Exactly. And what the health pass does is ensure that the interactions between people would not involve an unvaccinated person. In the worse case scenario (e.g. [vaccination scam or fake records](https://edition.cnn.com/2021/08/11/europe/german-nurse-saline-solution-vaccine-scli-intl-grm/index.html)), it is highly likely that one of the participants would at least be properly vaccinated. Without the health pass for the verification of the medical status, the unvaccinated-unvaccinated interaction is more likely to occur, no?


jawminator

>unvaccinated-unvaccinated interaction is more likely to occur, no? Yes but we're at 80% already and the people who are still unvaccinated are making that choice, since we've had free drive-through, no appointment clinics for (two?) Months now. Anyone who doesn't want it at this point should have that choice and make that risk to themselves, and if the vaccine is effective then vaccinated people shouldn't care. I personally don't care if I'm interacting with an unvaccinated person, as if they pass it to me, I'll 99% be fine.


[deleted]

> Anyone who doesn't want it at this point should have that choice and make that risk to themselves Which the government would still need to deal with and thus have to be concerned about. Especially so if they wish to protect the others, namely those would are medically unfit to be vaccinated. Personally, I see this more as a governmental response to better handle threat *as a society*. I understand your point on individual consequences, but it doesn't in anyway changes the duty of the government to *all* its citizen. From a more collectivistic mindset, if the health pass ends up being a carrot or stick that compels less unvaccinated folks and result in the protection one more vulnerable person, that's a trade off that I would agree to.


j3ffh

Sure, I'll bite. At this point, anyone who would be vaccinated is already vaccinated, the vaccine pass would keep your pubic areas free of the highest risk spreaders, e.g. the unvaccinated. Moreover, it's disingenuous to equate the risk of spread for the unvaccinated with the vaccinated, the odds are not remotely close. Finally, nobody is being asked to disclose their full medical history. It's hardly authoritarian to ask for proof of a single vaccine-- much like you're likely vaccinated against tetanus, polio, measles, it should be an expectation. If you have aids and are vaccinated, your vaccine card just says you're vaccinated. If you're not vaccinated for whatever medical reason, stay home and your privacy is fine. You're likely high risk and shouldn't be out having margaritas anyway. In NYC vaccine passes are only required for recreational activities, not essential things like supermarkets. And if you're not vaccinated and want to run around, you're a menace to the rest of the population. It's not considered authoritarian to restrict people from putting other people in danger.


jawminator

>the highest risk spreaders, e.g. the unvaccinated. >Moreover, it's disingenuous to equate the risk of spread for the unvaccinated with the vaccinated, the odds are not remotely close. Viral loads are similar. As far as I'm aware that means unv. And v. Have the same amount of covid in their system, thus, the same amount of ability to spread it. Unless there are studies that can disprove that... >Finally, nobody is... Thats fair. Medical privacy is probably the weakest part of my argument, based on the replies. !delta Though I don't believe that it should be the government issuing this. If 99% of stores/events/etc want to ask for proof of vaccine, then sure. Not the government mandating that they all ask for proof of vaccine.


derekwilliamson

Okay, even without going into in depth research, let's think about transmission for a second. Even if viral loads are similar, I assume you do believe the data on symptomatic cases in unv vs.V? Unvaccinated people are much more likely to have symptoms. Are people who are going around coughing or sneezing in public more or less likely to spread it?


jawminator

You can spread it by touching your nose/mouth, then touching a table. It will be on that table for x amount of people to pick up. At this point, 99 people out of a 100 will cover their face when coughing/sneezing. The question then becomes who is more likely to wipe their nose and touch something, or shake someone's hand without sanitizing. The vaccinated person who thinks they aren't able to carry covid, or the unvaccinated person who knows they could get it (though don't care as much)... I for one can't be sure which.


derekwilliamson

Surface transfer is much less likely than we originally thought. Projecting it through the air is the main means of transmission. Coughing or sneezing in an indoor space is the most likely way it gets spread, and I am not sure where you got 99/100 but I am very skeptical of that.


jawminator

I'm being hyperbolic but they are extremely few people who would sneeze without covering their mouth due to this whole fiasco. Unless you live around a lot of Karens and assholes lol


derekwilliamson

Haha, I figured. But I think it's much less common than you think, which makes a world of difference here. 'https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/07/100712121832.htm#:~:text=Even%20more%20concerning%2C%20less%20than,recommended%20by%20public%20health%20officials. This is pre-COVID, but I guarantee you it has not completely swung in the other direction.


j3ffh

Thanks for the delta! I didn't want to get into the science because I'm not really qualified to speak much on it, but I hope someone else can convince you that not every vaccinated person will carry and spread covid. Beyond that though, I find the privacy aspect of it infuriating. There are plenty of people who have legitimate concerns about revealing their medical history via their vaccination status, and I feel like these poor people, who are likely immunocompromised for a variety of horrible reasons, are being weaponized by these people who are literally just being difficult because they can, and it is those same immunocompromised people who have the most to lose.


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Kazthespooky

Do you believe Canadians have a right to private facilities? If I go to a Jays game or restaurant and the private institution requires proof of vaccine, do I have a right to their services? Do you believe public school systems should be required to take kids that have no MRR vaccine for instance?


jawminator

The government shouldn't have the ability to dictate who can and cannot go to a Jays game. The Jays should reserve that right. There is also a difference between this vaccine and.. a measles/polio vaccine for school. School is a governmental body and those vaccines are a one and done, and have been around for many years, proven safe, 99%+ effective at eliminating their respective virus, rather than just reducing symptoms.


Kazthespooky

The Jays are utilising that right. Restaurants are utilising that right. So to confirm, you are fine to restrict access but only when you determine it's worth the cost/benefit. What is the best way for the rest of society to determine once it meets this requirement of yours?


jawminator

That's not what I'm saying at all.


CheckYourCorners

Some provinces already required vaccines like measles to attend school, which is arguably much more of a right than going to restaurants and concerts. There is good precedence so this move is less authoritarian.


jawminator

Those other vaccines have been around for tens/hundreds of years and have been studied for as long. Many people will have hang ups with this particular vaccine simply due to its rushed nature and the government using coercion to make every possible person get it. It should optional and businesses should have the right to make the decision of who to let in, and who not to.


CheckYourCorners

mRNA vaccines have been around for tens of years as well.


confrey

>other vaccines have been around for tens/hundreds of years and have been studied for as long. Many people will have hang ups with this particular vaccine simply due to its rushed nature The problem I have with this is that most of those people don't even know what they're talking about. They have little to no understanding of the benchmarks that need to be met for a new biological to qualify as "safe", the process to determine it, or the development of drugs in general. They won't ever be able to really say what info they need to be convinced the vaccine is safe if the current info isn't enough for them. So how do you even reason with them in a way that gets them to take the vaccine during a pandemic? It's not all that reasonable to just standby twiddling your thumbs until they feel like enough time has gone by to act like there's suddenly sufficient data to believe the vaccine is safe.


jawminator

Quite frankly I don't know, but government coercion isn't the way to achieve it. If anything it just makes people more animated against it. That's what all the protests have been about. I'd hazard to guess theres some people who have willingly gotten the vaccine yet are against mandates in those crowds.


confrey

>Quite frankly I don't know, but government coercion isn't the way to achieve it I mean if some people get it just to keep their job or go to bars, I am willing to bet we'll be closer to vaccinating enough of the population than we would be if we just let them "do their own research" which is really just them not making an honest effort to understand anything. Not to mention that not finding ways to get people to take the vaccine means we continually overwhelm the healthcare system. They don't want to "wait and see" or make an attempt at understanding. They want to risk the lives of others.


kinovelo

I know multiple people that got vaccinated because they couldn’t get into an event that required it. They literally had a clinic across the street that offered a free rapid test and first dose.


TripRichert

getting vaccinated does reduce the risk of infection by about a factor of 3 for the delta variant https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/70/wr/mm7034e4.htm?s_cid=mm7034e4_w "[the estimate of the effectiveness of the vaccine at preventing infection declined] to 66% since the SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant became predominant" (delta variant became predominant in US in July, so this estimate is based on limited data). That's far from perfect, but it is far better than nothing. > able to stop the spread my local hospital (US not Canada) has a full ICU. This impacts everyone in the community. Anyone who gets hit by a car here and needs to go to the hospital is going to receive inadequate care because the hospital is overloaded. This is happening in places all over the US. A vaccine mandate isn't just about reducing the spread of the disease. It is about preventing hospitalizations so that our medical systems can function.


jawminator

Thanks for the study. !delta >Anyone who gets hit by a car here and needs to go to the hospital is going to receive inadequate care because the hospital is overloaded But as I said at the end, hospital workers who don't agree with this will quit/be fired. (Such as the case in France) causing any benefit to be, in the very least, reduced if not reversed due to understaffed hospitals.


TripRichert

3,000 healthcare workers got suspended out of 27 million in France. The requirements hit some areas a lot harder than others, (a hospital in Nice lost hundreds of workers) which is a concern. But, country wide, we're talking about one in 9000 healthcare workers getting suspended, and some are coming back after they get their shots. in most areas, I would guess that those suspensions had no impact.


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stan-k

1 - while a vaccine doesn't stop covid completely, it seems to be preventing both catching it and spreading it. There may be some rebound effect from people being less cautious, but I think that claim deserves some evidence. In my experience it is the people that don't think covid is all that dangerous that engage in more risky behaviour and avoid the vaccine. 2 & 3 - you have the right to be infected, but you do not have the right to infect others. These measures are not authoritorian nor an overreach in the same way that banning drunk driving isn't. Seatbelts are also mandatory and they don't even protect others. If you want to claim more freedom, first legalise driving without a seatbelt, it is the more restrictive measure. 4 - ths idea that more vaccinations lead to more infections is simply not suported by the data. More vaccinations correlate to less infections and more economic activity across the globe on average. On top of that, less infected people need to go to the hospital if they have been vaccinated.


jawminator

>In my experience it is the people that don't think covid is all that dangerous that engage in more risky behaviour and avoid the vaccine. That is fair, minor delta !delta >Seatbelts are also mandatory and they don't even protect others Correct me if I'm wrong but seatbelts are mandatory because your body could become a projectile without it, causing more potential harm/death to the person in the other vehicle. >ths idea that more vaccinations lead to more infections I didn't say it would lead to more infections.


stan-k

Windscreens these days are more than capable of keeping humans in the car during accidents, less so at keeping those peopke alive. The only external effect not wearing seatbelts has is worse medical outcomes that tend to cost taxpayers money. >I didn't say it would lead to more infections. I though that's what you meant by "but with more total spreading". If there are no more infections, why would there be a higher chance of a new variant?


jawminator

>I though that's what you meant by "but with more total spreading" As in infections that lead to hospitalization as you implied. Sorry, I should have clarified. More asymptomatic "infections" which will be harder to detect on the basis that they are asymptomatic and vaccinated people will be less cautious, and more closely socializing. The virus can have the ability to spread through the vaccinated population undetected, and itself mutate to be "immune" (so to speak) to the vaccine.


stan-k

I don't think there's any data supporting asymptomatic covid cases are higher in vaccinated people. You're right that a covid variant immune to the vaccine is likelier to develop in a vaccinated person (given the same viral load), but that will (a) simply put us back at thd pre-vaccine state (nothing lost compared to not taking a vaccine). And (b) due to the lower number of virus particles in total (less infected people, infected for shorter times) because of the vaccine, this is less likely to happen.


jawminator

Theres no data supporting that right now, but everyone is subject to the same rules right now. Once vaccinated people are unrestricted to go to concerts/sporting events/etc. The likelihood of increased (asymptomatic) transmission will probably be higher at those events. Access to those things should be based on a negative test, not vaccination status.


stan-k

Why not both vaccine and a test?


jawminator

That would be ideal. But the event/store/etc. itself should make the requirements.


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Apathetic_Zealot

Vaccine records are nothing new. Those who go to public school and college must have them.


quatyz

1.Your first point has some merit to it and I think it's the best argument against a vaccine passport I've heard, but that's where you should stop. The other 3 points are the same ramble that every anti-vaxxer throws out there and takes away from the validity of the first point. 2. We know that it is authoritarian like and against some of our rights, but most people have accepted that in exchange for the health and safety of the public. Our medical privacy is more of a confidentiality, plus you have to get vaccines to go to certain countries but no every bats an eye at that. 3. The whole plan is literally based entirely off of science. Claiming it's unscientific again takes so much away from the first argument 4. There will be vastly fewer hospitalizations which is the entire goal. Yes there will still be a few vaccinated cases but let's say if out of 100 patients in icu right now, 70 are unvaccinated and 30 are (which are just example tory numbers) and then you issue a mandate requiring the vaccine, then the unvaccinated number will fall to 0. Sure the vaccinated number may rise to 35 but it's a far better number. I have no clue where you get the idea that mass amounts of hospital workers will quit or get fired. There's not enough of them as is and the chances of someone up and quitting a job they spent 4-10 years in school learning how to do is far fetched. But again, your first argument has merit. The idea that the passport will make people lazy about social distancing and proper health and safety is not a crazy idea and since the vaccine isn't 100% effective its worth bringing up. However that being said your still worse off without the mandate no matter how you look at it. 100% of people being lazy about protocols while being fully vaccinated will result in less cases than 30% unvaccinated with zero restrictions (like how must provinces opened up in july) TL:DR the first argument has a bit of validity in that people will become lazy about covid protocols, but at least they'll be fully vaxxed. The other arguments are the same hogwash every antivaxxer spews and aren't very convincing


JoseThomas_303

I'll focus on the part about the vaccine's impact on transmission. Both articles focus on the CT threshold of vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals, which, according to some studies, are more or less the same. However, there is evidence that despite having similar Ct values, the vaccinated are much less likely to transmit. * A [study of breakthrough infections](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.28.21261295v1) in Singapore found that viral loads decreased faster in vaccinated individuals and that robust boosting of anti-spike protein antibodies was observed in vaccinated patients. Both of these indicate that the vaccinated remain infectious for a shorter period of time. * Another [analysis of breakthrough infections](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.30.21262701v1) found infectious virus shedding and restricted tissue distribution, once again indicating less transmission * A [study](https://spiral.imperial.ac.uk/bitstream/10044/1/90800/2/react1_r13_final_preprint_final.pdf) mentioned in the Nature article you cited found that those who had been vaccinated had a lower viral load on average than did unvaccinated people. This differs from previous studies as it sampled the population at random and included people who tested positive without showing symptoms. * Finally, [another analysis](https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.20.21262158v1) of breakthrough infections found that infectious virus shedding was reduced in these cases. All of these studies have their own limitations. However, all of them come to the same conclusion - a vaccinated person most certainly transmits less than an unvaccinated person. We've seen that the rate of vaccination increased following mandates in both France and Italy, and this would be a benefit for the society.


jawminator

This mostly just means that they don't transmit the virus for as long, but they still have the ability to. (I can't read the third study on my phone, I'll come back to it later) https://beta.ctvnews.ca/local/toronto/2021/8/11/1_5542728.html >If a fully vaccinated individual is not experiencing symptoms of COVID-19 after being exposed to the virus, they are not required to self-isolate, although they should still get a test. They may also be required to get a second test. For the next 10 days they will just be required to self-monitor for symptoms. Meaning this ^ is quite a dangerous rule. 0000000000 It's a little bit beside the points I made, but still relevant and deserving of a delta. !delta


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Finch20

> it is authoritarian because it intrudes upon the freedoms that we can enjoy in Canada Is the government responsible to protect the health of its citizens? > now we have to give medical information to all manner of different places in order to gain access Technically correct, but very misleading. If I want to travel to South Korea I also have to "give medical information" to "all manner of different places". I need to be vaccinated for yellow fever. I don't see anyone complaining about that. All the information you need to give is "are you vaccinated", that's it. Hardly a breach of privacy. > if the vaccine don't stop the spread, which is the case, this whole plan is unscientific, ineffective over-reach This is a pile of bullshit. Just because you can't stop the spread by the vaccine doesn't mean it doesn't have any benefits. In Belgium currently all the people that are the ICU and the vast majority of people in normal wards for covid are unvaccinated. The amount of people that are vaccinated and are hospitalized can be counted on 1 hand. > t may bring hospitalization rates down if more people jump on board to be vaccinated, granted And that's nothing to you? If tomorrow your local hospital says "I'm sorry, we know you broke your leg and need surgery to fix it but we don't have a single bed to spare" you'd say "just another day, nothing to worry about"?


jawminator

>If I want to travel to South Korea I have actually travelled to Korea. I got that shot. It's a different country, which is not covered by the UN UDHR. You need regular passports to enter a foreign country, as countries have their own laws and borders. This is within one's own country. >All the information you need to give is "are you vaccinated", that's it. Hardly a breach of privacy. I've given a delta for this. Privacy was my weakest point. >And that's nothing to you? You seen to have missed the part I said next... With the proof of what could happen. (Eg. The France story the other day)


Winter-Days

The point of vaccine passports where I live is intended to stop people from doing the fun things (movies, bats, restaurants, sports, etc) they like to do until they get the vaccine and thus the passport. Example being the construction industry. Where I live a large majority of construction workers aren’t vaccinated. However they do like heading to the bar for a beer after work. No passport, no beer. The government is relying on these personal dilemmas to push people to the vaccine. The government is sneaky as fuck.


DARK-Accuracyy985

If it means less of my brother and sisters end up dead I could care less if it’s authoritarian.


ghotier

>without realizing that they are still 100% capable of spreading it... Likely even moreso than the unvaccinated or people who don't sign on to this system. People truly following the science should oppose a "passport". This seems like an unfounded assumption and it seems to be the partial basis for your reasons 3 and 4 as well. Why do you believe this?


tonlok323

I’m from Los Angeles and things are getting out of hand. Things should be back to normal and they’re not. They keep coming up with new rules and guidelines. Nothing make sense instead make us angry. The same people that said wouldn’t mandate vaccines are now mandating vaccines. It is not about your health it’s about them being in control and making money. The ones making big money are the ones with the vaccine.


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