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CMV: The so-called United States should not exist

CMV: The so-called United States should not exist

ViewedFromTheOutside

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TheLordCommander666

Every country stands on genocide... that's kinda how countries were made for thousands of years throughout all of human history really. It's kinda weird that you're more worried about countries that didn't genocide the natives whole cloth then the ones that did.


TopMali

But the US did, essentially, so did Canada and Australia. I'd mention Taiwan too but in the Anglosphere there would be a bit of a brain fry


TheLordCommander666

> But the US did, essentially, so did Canada and Australia. Do you know what wholecloth means? The fact that they still exist means we didn't the countries that did don't have to deal with this kinda thing because nobody is alive to bitch. >


TopMali

There's still indigenous people living, they're just been disinfrenchised by their colonial governments, the most widely recognized example today is the struggle of the Palestinian people that got driven away from their land and the few ones remaining are under military occupation


TheLordCommander666

Sigh... the vast majority of countries, that exist China, Russia, Germany, Austria ect. on their founding killed ALL of the natives, the countries you are bitching about are the ones that showed mercy. Isreal is a unique case because they are descendants of people who were almost wiped out wholecloth but ran into the desert and got lucky and eventually came back for their home displacing the descendants of those who tried to genocide them, well palestians also tried to genocide Isreal recently, hell it's pretty much a consistent thing at this point. So why is it okay for Palestinians to be on land they got from genocide and genocide the Israeli to get it back but not vica versa?


TheNewJay

You're clearly talking like this genocide isn't currently in process. If you had any sort of moral high ground here, you'd at least be calling for the US and Canada to cease their ongoing genocide.


TheLordCommander666

lol what? There's no genocide going on in Canada or the US just natives bitching they aren't getting enough freebies.


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thedylanackerman

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TopMali

Russia is an incredibly diverse country that may favor a specific ethnic group but the definition of Russian could include Slavs, Caucasians or Turkic people. I'd argue that the state of Russia is much closer to recognizing the bad they've imposed on their so-called state that the US is. And the so-called of Israel imposed it's will on people that lived there for more than many centuries because other colonial states supported it, there's a reason why the so-called state of Israel is despised by it's neighbors as it's a threat to their self-determination and already stops self-determination of Palestinians


TheLordCommander666

>Russia is an incredibly diverse country that may favor a specific ethnic group but the definition of Russian could include Slavs, Caucasians or Turkic people. I'd argue that the state of Russia is much closer to recognizing the bad they've imposed on their so-called state that the US is. US is far more diverse than Russia that's not what we are talking about and Russia has done nothing to recognize the bad they've imposed I don't even think they apologized for communism. >And the so-called of Israel imposed it's will on people that lived there for more than many centuries because other colonial states supported it, there's a reason why the so-called state of Israel is despised by it's neighbors as it's a threat to their self-determination and already stops self-determination of Palestinians Yeah because they are jewish and Muslims genocide jews, that's why they had to run in the first place but now they have bigger guns.


TopMali

The US is not more diverse religiously, you can go from one side from the US and see the same things copied and pasted all over the country, Russia is definitely not the same country from one side to another


TheLordCommander666

Yes the US is more diverse religiously it's diversities just aren't as geographically fix.


TopMali

What are you talking about? It's multiples brands of Protestanism, a bit of Catholicism, just a bit of secularism, 2% Jewish, 1% Muslim 1% everything else, how is that diverse when compared to Russia? Do you really believe it's in Muslim nature to genocide jews?


BingBlessAmerica

>I'd argue that the state of Russia is much closer to recognizing the bad they've imposed on their so-called state that the US is. You mean Russia, the country that killed at least 15,000 Chechen insurgents in a war of annexation just 10 years ago?


TopMali

Less Chechens were killed than Indigenous Americans and even though they should have their independence. They have the lie of self-determination by having their own state within Russia, a privilege Indigenous Americans do not


dingdongdickaroo

You cant compare the entire body count of the centuries long process of american colonization to one war the russians waged a decade ago. Also, Didnt the us just return half of oklahoma or something to the natives? Also, we shut down a multi million dollar pipeline basically for no other reason than because they asked (the climate change angle of that debate was not relevant as this one pipeline isnt going to change the method by which we power our society). Im not saying we dont have a long way to go or that its ever going to really be possible to undo the damage but i do think many americans are trying to do what we can. I think your comment kinda displays an ignorance of history tbh.


Fearless_Current2719

The Palestinian people are the descendants of the invaders from Jordan that only went to that location during the Arab-Israeli War, they did not live in that land at any point in history. The descendants of people from that region are Muslim Arab Israelis.


Fearless_Current2719

> the Palestinian people that got driven away from their land The Palestinian people are the descendants of the invaders from Jordan that only went to that location during the Arab-Israeli War, they did not live in that land at any point in history. The descendants of people from that region are Muslim Arab Israelis. And I am saying that as a Muslim.


TopMali

Astaghfirullah what a lie, so it's all a Jordanian conspiracy these people didn't exist until the 20th century?


Fearless_Current2719

There were 750k Muslims in Israel in the 1940s. There are 1.7 million Arab Muslim Israelis today. Not Palestinians, Muslim Arab Israelis


TopMali

Populations tend to grow overtime you lunatic. Especially when it's a culture that likes big families and is not opposed to polygamy.


Fearless_Current2719

And I am telling you that the population of Palestine is from the descendants of Jordanians, not the descendants of Israel


TopMali

Source it, I don't think I ever heard until now from the craziest Zionist that Palestinians are just 20th century invaders. Sounds a bit like projection to me


ronhamp225

Jews are the indigenous people of so-called "Palestine."


TopMali

Yes, and Deonte from Compton is indigenous to Ghana but you don't see him going to Ghana trying to impose his rules on the natives and telling him that all the land of Ghana is his and his cousins' in the Americas, that'd be absurd.


ronhamp225

the jews ARE the natives


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thedylanackerman

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WaterboysWaterboy

Logistically, how would this happen? Also why only the United States? I’m sure if you look into it, there is plenty of land stolen in Europe and Asia as well. I doubt any country that exists today, existed since the beginning of mankind ( or existed since the first settlement of mankind in that location).


BrutalMan420

i see reasons why you hate it but not why it shouldnt exist. so why dont you provide reasons it shouldnt exist


TopMali

History that I just discussed, and could discuss more ad nauseum. The fact that this country is not only currently a force of repression domestically through its use of police to repress any dissent to the current structure but also imports its repression to the rest of the [world](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_regime_change) America was not only a force for evil before but is also an imperialistic force on the rest of the planet through not only culture, which is not an inherent evil, but through the overthrowing of other sovereign nations to fit its interests


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TopMali

I didn't say deport the non-indigenous people did I? I believe the US as we know it should stop to exist and lead to the creation of a new government with a new ethos and a new culture that essentially acknowledges the genocide that took place on every corner instead of American culture of today that wipes the slate clean every chance it gets when remembering their history


Feathring

And why wouldn't people just reform a similar government to what they already had? What, are you going to enforce the creation of a new country via force?


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TopMali

I believe the US Constitution should be burned by the people this so-called country claims to rule And acknowledgment would solve the broken ethos of America as a force for good and seeing it as the colonial state that it is. Just like Germany owned up to its own atrocities.


dingdongdickaroo

Germany didnt dissolve its government and borders. Also, germanic peoples are about as close to native as you can get.


IronArcher68

What about the constitution is worth getting rid of the whole thing?


TopMali

It's origins of colonialism


IronArcher68

Ok, I’ll be more specific. What is written in the constitution that makes it worth getting rid of. Yes, it was written by colonists, but unless something terrible was written into it, why get rid of it?


TopMali

That's the number one step to destroy the structures of inequality that made America what it is today.


BrutalMan420

none of this is a reason something should not exist LOL. cmon dude


TopMali

Matter of fact I refuse to acknowledge the existence of the so-called United States. This is a fictional country to me


doireallywannadothis

The U.S. government is probably the most powerful human force on the planet. Denying its existence accomplishes nothing. Will you reject benefits offered to you by the U.S. government? Will you refuse to accept U.S. currency?


BrutalMan420

alright you do you bro!


BingBlessAmerica

Just because a country is bad doesn't mean it doesn't or shouldn't exist.


TopMali

Username checks out, But if the existence of the country is illegitimate why go along with the joke?


dingdongdickaroo

Because the existence of a nation or government is, has been, and probably always will be based entirely on its ability to enforce its authority, not your moral qualms.


BingBlessAmerica

Clearly define legitimacy of a country - edit it into your OP.


EmiNVS

>this was stolen land. If there was a battle for the land it wasn't stolen, it was won, to the victor go the spoils.


TopMali

I'd point you to all the treaties that were dishonored.


Purple_Catz

I'd point you to where the rules of life are written... Oh wait, those don't exist.


CheckYourCorners

Violating treaties to occupy more land qualifies as stealing by any reasonable definition


Purple_Catz

By all means I agree. However, there's a few principles we need to realize 1. The earth doesn't "belong" to anyone. Seeing as countries and borders and cultures have changed over time in more ways than we can really keep track of, anything and everything is borrowed land. 2. The reason I pointed out rules of life is because looking at premise 1, even though I am "stealing" from you, it's not yours to begin with. Thus, to the victor go the spoils applies whether or not it was "stolen". Ultimately, while violating treaties can be considered stealing land, so can taking any land by force (which is war), as the land is being taken from you. Point being in all of this- if you're stronger, you make the rules and enjoy your time until someone else comes to take what you took.


CheckYourCorners

And to accept those rules is a moral failure


Purple_Catz

Morality is a subjective issue anyway, it can be looked at in various different ways and there isn't one correct answer. But at the end of the day, everyone has to listen to whoever's on top. If you don't like it, you overthrow the top and become the top. Then you expect the same cycle to happen again.


CheckYourCorners

>But at the end of the day, everyone has to listen to whoever's on top. If you don't like it, you overthrow the top and become the top. Then you expect the same cycle to happen again. This is a contradiction, if everybody listens to the top, the top is never replaced.


Purple_Catz

Not at all. You have to listen to the top for some period of time, correct?


TopMali

Ok so you'd shut the fuck up if China invaded?


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TopMali

Trust me, I say "so-called" very much, I'm not a hypocrite when it comes to that. The structures of America are rotten to the core and just because the people changed and improved doesn't the conservation of these structures isn't abhorrent.


GamerZ44

Okay but that sounds like a completely different argument than what I responded to so unless for some reason that relates to anything I just said...


TopMali

America in of in itself is illegitimate, it's better to scrap the whole thing and build anew


GamerZ44

It's not illegitimate, though. It's a founded country with a government protecting its citizens, providing welfare and promoting economy and productivity. You need to add more details to your opinion if you want me to change your view. Please define illegitimate and why you think wiping out an entirely established governmental structure, under which a majority of citizens support to a certain extent, is easier than improving what we already have as time drags on. It certainly isn't economically viable, you'd have political opposition to it, and there's no guarantee that Americans wouldn't fight back against a tyranny of that nature.


Poo-et

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mrrustypup

While I can’t recall the exact wording, the most widely celebrated day, that occurs on the widest rang of days based on country, is, shockingly, *Independence from Britain* day for various countries. Which means basically the majority of countries has to fight for their independence from Britain. So, as shitty as it is, the way of the world is “that guy had something, these guys wanted it. War happens. Somebody wins. Game over.” Does that excuse the atrocities of the various natives throughout the land? Not at all. But that’s the game. That’s how the rules have worked since the Dawn of time. Why you’re singling out the United States makes little sense. EVERY country has, in some way shape or form, either been part of an attack on another country or the victim of an attack from an invading peoples. That’s how it works. There’s nothing special about the US, and throwing Israel and “vague Asia” into the mix seems like an afterthought. What would you propose happen to *literally all the countries* if they aren’t what they currently are?


TopMali

Decolonialization, where the indegenous people are acknowledged within the culture of the country instead of the settler states a lot of people live under


mrrustypup

Ok but you’re just throwing around a bunch of buzz words. None of your replies have had any substance to them whatsoever. What would that look like? Just magical new government Thats somehow totally fair and perfect to everyone? Writing an apology letter to natives isn’t going to do anything. Acknowledging the atrocities that happened will not do anything but make YOU feel better.


DRB_Can

I am very unsure of what your view is, since it is quite vague. ​ What do you mean by dismantling? That could mean anything from changing government forms to eviction of a billion people. ​ What do you mean by recognition? A statement from the government acknowledging treaties and the genocide, returning lands to the descendants of some randomly chosen group that used to live in an area, reparations?


TopMali

Scraping the Constitution and what I mean by recognition is every single thing that you mentionned. Reparations and the honoring of treaties are needed for the society to even evolve past its current colonial existence.


Fearless_Current2719

So systematic genocide of every single native american tribe as every single native american tribe that exists was living on conquered land at the time the first European settled


TopMali

Where's the genocide?


Fearless_Current2719

Uh... everywhere.


TopMali

How am I advocating for genocide on indigenous peoples, go be mad at America not at me


Fearless_Current2719

Because they are colonizers that murdered and stole their land


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thedylanackerman

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Feathring

When you start throwing insults around like that it makes it seem like you don't have any actual arguments. Surely that's not the case right?


TopMali

There's a whole context of that person replying to my comment with ridiculous claims on the origins of Palestinians and saying something about shooting me, know yourself in that conversation


dingdongdickaroo

For you to suggest we literally dissolve the legal entity known as the US government, it falls on you to suggest a real replacement and by that i dont mean flowery language about your utopian fantasy but a real, pragmatic, implementable, logistically sound alternative that provides us with the beneficial services the US govt does. The constitution guarantees us many rights that were foreign to people of generations past, including the right to alter the constitution with enough consensus. If i am mistreated by this system, i have the right to criticise them and to sue them for damages if i can prove the rights granted to me have been violated. Thats just the constitution. Expanding on that, the US military has secured global shipping lanes and given me the ability to import or export to almost any location on the planet and, sorry to tell you this, but secured one of the longest lasting periods of general global stability known in history in terms of wars between great powers which were semi frequent, apocalyptic events historically. You are suggesting an ethnostate confederacy which, due to genocide, would be built in service of a minority of the population of north america. You are suggesting we dissolve the force that maintains global supply lines which sustain the lives of billions of people. You are suggesting we do away with the force that (hypocritically) enforces all of the treaties that maintain this period of global stability and have yet to describe how you are going to keep the suez canal running or keep european nations from returning to their old ways. If you wanna talk about reparations, Im down but you are suggesting we dissolve the institutions which maintain order and enable us to exist in a (relative to human history) unprecedentedly free and stable society. Also, the thing that frustrates me the most about these arguments is i have to defend messy reality and historical facts while you get to wax poetically about some hypothetical world where no one did anything bad and bad guys never win.


WilliamBontrager

The human race should then not exist according to your logic bc they killed off the neanderthals. Hell every successful species to ever exist should not exist. The US is the FIRST nation to exist based on principles and freedom rather than religious or genetic similarities. I don't think you understand the complexities and difficulty that entails. Yes we struggled at it and failed miserably at some aspects. Yes we were hypocritical about freedom. We fixed it and a million people died and the entire foundation of a state based coalition was shook to do so. As far as the indigenous population goes, every nation has done the same at some point. The reality of the world is that the winners of conflict claim the spoils. Sure we should all just get along and no one should fight but we can't have a peaceful preschool playground much less a peaceful world bc reality is we compete for resources as a species as well life in general. Life competes and the strong survive and the weak don't. That's why we are here. Darwinism is brutal and like it or not it is reality. There is no morality in survival and the only reason you think so is bc you live in the easiest time to survive in all of history in the country you say shouldn't exist so you have zero perception of reality. Good luck finding any country in the world that wasn't based in violence bc without the threat of violence there is no nation.


TopMali

Are you quoting South Park at me? The US is based on the principle of freedom, yet had slavery and was standing on a genocide, and that was just upon founding the so-called nation, they continued to expand and spread like a virus from sea to sea


WilliamBontrager

Yes. Humans are a virus. Now I'm quoting agent Smith at you. Sure we did. We recognized that mistake and millions died to correct it. You are just gonna spit on their graves and say it was useless sacrifice? You learn from the past and you grow from it. You living in the past does nothing of any value to anyone. Like I said this is the only country that is unified under principles of self ownership and freedom and damn straight we are still hypocritical about it. Damn straight we need to fix stuff. Damn straight our politicians and leaders can be a$$holes. Burning it down and returning to an unsustainable system fixes nothing. Grow up.


TopMali

Slavery is still defacto legal in the Constitution and the 13th Amendment still puts the criminalized underclass under slavery by any other name


WilliamBontrager

Slavery was abolished my guy. The nature of the constitution makes it impossible to remove rights only to amend them via another amendment. The criminalized underclass? Marx was an idiot, however your free to live in his perfect world by simply moving to North Korea or china. China is so equal that they provide for all your needs and if you are a wieger Muslim they give you free room and board, all the gruel you can eat in one tiny bowl, and free organ removal to boot! Sounds glorious! But yes yes I know it's theft to employ people bc....reasons. The only slavery happening now is the current welfare state that claims to help.


TopMali

The only slavery is people getting government benefits but not the children in the Congo mining for America to enjoy their Iphones?


WilliamBontrager

Ahhh you would rather the children of congo starve? Sounds like first world privilege talking there.


TopMali

This is just America being a job provider using the ressources of a country and the labor of their citizens for dirt cheap to be able to profit at home.


WilliamBontrager

No it's the reality that poverty exists and if you don't work in a 3rd world country you starve to death. Without America those kids would still work bc that is the reality of their existence. Kids worked for 100,000 years and it's only in the age of capitalism that they were able to not work.


TopMali

Wtf, Congo is a filthy rich country in ressources, the poverty came exclusively from the outside.


Astronomnomnomicon

>That country stands on a genocide so successful that the indigenous population is genuinely an afterthought for most people. Thats not true though. The number of natives who died in violent conflicts with settlers ranging from combat to execution is truly tiny. Estimates range from like 85-98% of the natives dying from unintentional disease spreading. Also even if you want to call that genocide most of that was done by European colonists. By the time the US was founded there were barely any natives left, so it makes little sense to blame that on the United States.


TopMali

TIL Manifest Destiny was not a thing


Astronomnomnomicon

Why do you say that?


IronArcher68

I hope you understand that if you dismantle the US government, strong man dictatorships will take over. A lot of people would suffer, especially minorities like the natives. All you are creating is suffering and tyranny. Listen, I get that colonization was horrible, but it already happened. Nothing we can do to change history. What seems better, learning from that history to create a better future, or destroying any and all possibilities for progress?


TopMali

The only difference between the US and a strong man dictatorship is that the US has the wealth and the cultural capital through the media to bring the country into whatever position it desires


IronArcher68

I can think of a lot of differences between the US and a strongman dictatorship, mainly the fact that we have an actual say in the government through democracy and that power is distributed between many different people with checks and balances.


FiveSixSleven

How could you possibly handle the logistics of displacing nearly the over a billion people located currently in "every colonial state in the Americas, Oceania, Israel and South Africa" ? Certainly it would trigger a global economic collapse and if the world didn't devolve into outright world war, the conflict and chaos of such an event would certainty set the world metaphorically (and possibly literally) on fire.


TopMali

I didn't say displacing anybody, dismantling a state doesn't mean kicking everyone that isn't part of a specific group out, nobody is trying to create Israel a second time. It's all about destroying the historical strutures that are inherent to the nation


FiveSixSleven

So dismantle the government and let whatever happens happen? Including the most financially powerful figures taking over with no form of democracy or regulation to constrict their dominion over the then legally defenseless population?


TopMali

That was literally the story of America, if anything there'd be the self-awareness of the people to determine the direction of the country according to the principles that I woud want in a new Constitution


FiveSixSleven

New constitution? Who's going to oversee that? How does this not end in civil or continental war?


jacob24711

You do realize that before the United States existed, the native tribes that controlled North America wiped out previous tribes who controlled the land though violent warfare, and they wiped out the tribes that controlled the land before them, etc... You can’t play the game of awarding land to the people who “owned” it originally because those groups no longer exist.


Lost_Knowledge_20

What happened in past is a past now, digging up past and shitting on people who didn't have to do anything is useless and stupid. The whole human society shouldn't exist then, we oppress the other animals, we caused extinction to many. IMO those who dig past and then shout you shouldn't exist because your ancestors did this and this is fucking stupid.


APotatoPancake

What would dismantling achieve? Lets say for whatever reason 100% agree to do this you would have to just redo new country boarders. Which historically has been a huge problem (look at how tribes in Africa were carved up) as people have already 'settled'. You would only be stirring up the same crap all over again.


TopMali

Don't think so


APotatoPancake

So when European powers carved up Africa the literally cut some tribes lands in half an in other cases smooshed together enemy tribes. So you have cases where a tribe is now missing 75% of its population (because it now in a different country) living next to their generational sworn enemy who now makes up the majority of the population. You want to take a page from the colonialism book and redraw lines hoping it will end up better this time?


Hellioning

I mean, okay, but what happens when it's dismantled? Where do all the people who live there that aren't descended from the natives that were genocided go?


TopMali

No, the ethos of these so-called nations is changed into countries that are aware of their histories


Phantom-Soldier-405

A lot of countries were built from murder and cruelty hundreds of years ago when it was accepted, should they be dismantled as well?


TopMali

Yes


Apathetic_Zealot

In the case of South Africa who would the land be given back to? The Zulu were conquerors just like the British and Afrikaners.


TopMali

Remove white people from the equation and let them settle it


Apathetic_Zealot

That doesn't answer my question. Your position is that Europeans have no claim to land just by conquest, why do Africans have a claim to any land by conquest?


TopMali

Because Zulus didn't create an infrastucture to keep the Xhosa and the Khoi Khoi down, there was social mobility and mixing between the tribes and the Dutch that call themselves Afrikaaners came around decided to formalize a system that never really was


Apathetic_Zealot

Are you kidding? The Bantu (Nguni/Zulu) were conquerors that displaced other ethnic groups. Any mixing that was done was by virtue of conquest. By definition in order to maintain control of the region they had to suppress the original inhabitants and force assimilation. Also for the Afrikaners they did not originally set up apartheid, that was centuries later. So let's be clear, you're ok with conquest when it's done by POC but not whites?


TopMali

Yes.


Apathetic_Zealot

So your objection is based on racism rather than anti colonialism.


ronhamp225

I hate to be that guy who says "muh Russia," but let's be real here, obvious Russian troll is obvious.


TopMali

I'm working on Soros money


BingBlessAmerica

Should Britain not exist because the Anglo-Saxons displaced the Celts there?


TopMali

Perhaps not


Choice-Activity-2933

So then what do you want to happen? Say you were temporarily granted the power to reform the world to the way you want. Are you just abolishing every country because they all involved genocide?


TopMali

Perhaps


Choice-Activity-2933

But what do you want to happen after that?


TopMali

An united world not tied down to any colonial legacy


Choice-Activity-2933

Much of the world is filled with crime and corruption, that seems to be the default state of nations. You're going to get rid of the few islands that manage to avoid most of that. Are you not worried that the entire world will become corrupt and poor after you get what you want?


TopMali

Yes the US is definitely the least corrupt nation on Earth, that's why during the election of 2000 the recount of the vote in Florida was blocked by one of the candidates sibling that was governor at the time. God forbid we become like all these 3rd world shitholes, full of corruption and nepotism.


Choice-Activity-2933

It's not the least corrupt, but relative to the rest of the world it is much less corrupt than most other places. That's not because the us is uncorrupt, but because everyone else is just so bad.


TopMali

You said the few islands that avoid that corruption, the CIA literally smuggled cocaine in its own country to fund an illegal war


Fearless_Current2719

Every single country on earth sits on stolen land by your definition


TopMali

That's right


Fearless_Current2719

So why havent you put a bullet in your own head to stop being a thief?


TopMali

Suicide is haram


Fearless_Current2719

Me shooting you for wanting to kill me isnt.


TopMali

When did I say I wanted to kill you, dear fake Muslim


[deleted]

[удалено]


TopMali

Where did I say I wanted to kill anybody? Source it


Fearless_Current2719

Live without existing on any land


TopMali

Can you just say with your chest that you're an Israeli citizen instead of trying to gaslight me with fake sources about Palestinians being Jordanians invaders and even saying that you were muslim as you were spitting that bile?


thedylanackerman

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