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CMV: It's racist to ask that we support businesses solely because they are owned by people of a particular race.

CMV: It's racist to ask that we support businesses solely because they are owned by people of a particular race.

ViewedFromTheOutside

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Yatagarasu513

One thing to note is that the call to support businesses run by certain races isn’t meant to be to the exclusion of anything else. It’s much like the phrase to “shop local” or “support local stores” - that doesn’t mean you can’t use Amazon or whatever big box store you usually use, but if you can, you should try and support these small stores too. Many of the reasons to support local stores also apply to minority owned businesses and aren’t rooted in the idea that race is the only reason to support. They’re often small businesses, and much like an independent bookstore might offer to curate local authors, a minority owned business might offer unique products based on their culture.


thearchitectprincess

I know it's not meant to be an exclusion, but under the provided definition of racism in the original post, wouldn't any sort of expressed preference based upon race be racist? If not, why? If the goal is to support small businesses, then why don't we just say that? Why do people have to say, "support small businesses owned by minorities?"


Yatagarasu513

For the exact same reason that black history month isn’t racist, arguably. You’re not intimating other history doesn’t exist or is unimportant, but drawing attention to a marginalised and underrepresented sector of it. And in this case, some studies [have shown ](https://escholarship.org/uc/item/86r7z28d)that black owned businesses are less successful than others.


char11eg

But in saying that you should support goods or services based on race, you are saying that a certain race or races is more deserving of business than another. If there are two stores of the same niche type in an area, one owned by a white guy and the other owned by someone from a minority, then saying ‘you should shop at the minority owned business’ is ACTIVELY driving the other shop owner out of business. You are saying ‘this shop is more worthy of my patronage because the owner is x race’. I stand by the idea that as it is not acceptable to say ‘this shop is more worthy of my patronage because the owner is white’, it should not be acceptable to say ‘this shop is more worthy of my patronage because the owner is black’ (or another minority race). The worth of something should be intrinsically distinct from race, and insisting on tying this back to race is, by definition, racism. (not racial oppression, that’s an entirely different thing, which some people argue is required for racism. I strongly disagree - racism is inequality caused directly by race, in any capacity) Something like black history month focuses on education. Education, or more accurately education about historical fact, can’t be racist by nature. Because knowledge isn’t racist - opinion is. The teacher of said knowledge can make it racist, but knowledge cannot be inherently exclusionary.


LookingForVheissu

> But in saying that you should support goods or services based on race, you are saying that a certain race or races is more deserving of business than another. Context is king. If the world were perfect, and minorities were not often left in financially weaker positions, your statement is true. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we live in a world where there is context. I live near a big city. Black people around here are generally poorer than white people. I am not saying that black people are more deserving of my money. I am saying “black people are poor around here and I may be able to help this small shop owner.” The reason race plays into it is because there are races that are customarily less well off than others.


char11eg

There are poor people of all races, though. And if we’re arguing one of the key race-based inequalities is income driven, then why is any one poor black person (or person from another minority group) any more deserving of special treatment than any poor white person? I completely agree that measures should be taken to prevent poverty. But we shouldn’t do it in a racially driven manner. There are plenty of wealthy black people (or other minorities), and plenty of poor white people. Hell, if we’re talking about ‘people who own a store’ as the category (since the example was at which stores should you shop), they are BY DEFAULT already better off than average, as they were in the position to set up a store, which is a large expense!


redhair-ing

I see where you're coming from, but, at this point in time at least, there is a proven [link](https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2020/02/27/examining-the-black-white-wealth-gap/) between racial identity and socioeconomic status that has been cultivated since the arrival of slave ships. Maybe one day we'll live in a world where you just support local vendors who are living a little closer to the edge, but you objectively cannot take race out of the equation when discussing socioeconomics and financial mobility. No, not all Black people are poor and, no, not all white people are not poor, but what we're talking about is the *trend*. Through a multitude of oppressive economic and social systems, non-white people, particularly Black people, have been systematically gatekept from socioeconomic advancement. Look at the [Tulsa Massacre](https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2020/06/the-1921-tulsa-race-massacre-and-its-enduring-financial-fallout/). One of the gross, fundamental components to understand about the attack on Black Wall Street was that the town was an exceptionally, and uniquely, prosperous Black area and that–being not only inhabited by Black people, but *successful* Black people–was why it was targeted. As a result, 200 people were murdered and the financial achievements of those who lived and worked in Tulsa were not just destroyed, but the economic fall-out of the massacre persists today. That's a very specific example from the early 20th century, but, more currently, you can see that [Black-owned businesses were largely denied aid during the pandemic](https://time.com/5848557/black-owned-business-coronavirus-aid/).


Wintermute815

The definition of racism is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized." Your premise is founded on an incorrect assumption. Programs to combat inequality or support racial minority groups with a long history of being marginalized do not meet the definition of racism. You can be opposed to things like affirmative action, that separate people along racial lines, but making that distinction is not racism. Without measure to counteract systemic racism, systemic racism would always persist. There is a huge push on the right wing to equate measures that seek to combat racism deeply rooted in our society to racism. It preys on white anxiety over demographic changes and emerging diversity in positions of authority, and reinforces the "white man as a victim" perception. Recognize it for what it is - small steps towards helping eliminate the long term effects of racism and racial inequality. Black people worked for free for hundreds of years in America and were never compensated for their work. They were freed with no land and no wealth. Meanwhile, the rich plantation owners have passed their fortunes on down for generations, at a minimum leaving their descendants entrenched in the middle class. All the while, black people were systematically denied education and good jobs. They were forced into illegal enterprises in order to support their families and a culture of criminality and distrust of the system was passed on down through generations. And then you have things like the Tulsa race riots - where Black people managed to get together and start developing their own economy and successful business enterprises and collaborations, as well as getting representation in the town where their businesses were located. They had accrued a meaningful amount of wealth that could have grown into massive amounts of wealth by this day and age...but Black Wall Street was burned to the ground and the people of Tulsa were massacred. No arrests, no compensation for their losses. Of course there's also been the systemic discrimination in the justice system, the banking system, the credit system, etc. each taking a small bite but together making it extremely hard for any individual other than the occasional 1% genius to pull themselves out of poverty. Each taking a slightly larger bite out of black people's accumulated wealth than out of a white person's, which lead to demonstrable effects on long term success. I could go on for days. If this country wanted to fix inequality, redress past injustice, drastically reduce crime, and vastly increase productivity and tax revenues...WE COULD. We know how, and it could be done in a generation or two. But the rich people in power keep funneling this type of thinking down to the masses, and even smart people fall victim to their emotions instead of checking them. Check yourself. Remember the whole picture. Learn the whole history. The rich people that don't want their taxes raised are playing us against each other so that we all stay divided and blaming poor people and immigrants, so we don't notice them picking our pockets.


theonecalledjinx

​ >"The definition of racism is "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, **typically** one that is a minority or marginalized." You are basing your argument solely on the single word of "typically" which in itself is not definite. Meaning that racism can be perpetrated against a majority or unmarginalized group, it is just not the standard. >There is a huge push on the right wing to equate measures that seek to combat racism deeply rooted in our society to racism. But that is just an "incorrect assumption," mainstream right-wing policymakers believe in equality, not equity. Mainstream right-wing policymakers believe in race-neutral policymaking and equal protections under the law. The conflict is that the mainstream Democrat party policymakers still believe in enacting policies that discriminate based on an individual's skin color and not based in race-neutral policymaking. Democrat National Platform: "Democrats are committed to standing up to racism and bigotry in our laws, in our culture, in our politics, and in our society, and recognize that race-neutral policies are not sufficient to rectify race-based disparities." https://democrats.org/where-we-stand/party-platform/healing-the-soul-of-america/ You keep conflating "Equality" with "Equity" in your rebuttal, and even in your response, you advocate for equality while the push for treating Americans unequally by race, under federal law, for racial equity. This is not far from the Democrats platform and policymaking actions that most of the "right wing" consider federally mandated racial discrimination. "Our priority will be Black, Latino, Asian, and Native American owned small businesses, women-owned businesses, and finally having equal access to resources needed to reopen and rebuild." — President-elect Biden pic.twitter.com/pIyDuhf5pH — Biden-Harris Presidential Transition (@Transition46) January 10, 2021 Priority groups : A small business concern that is at least 51 percent owned by one or more individuals who are: Women, or Veterans, or Socially and economically disadvantaged (see below). Applicants must self-certify on the application that they meet eligibility requirements Socially disadvantaged individuals are those who have been subjected to racial or ethnic prejudice or cultural bias because of their identity as a member of a group without regard to their individual qualities. https://www.sba.gov/funding-programs/loans/covid-19-relief-options/restaurant-revitalization-fund Case in point, for specific racial exclusion: White Wisconsin dairy farmer with a disability, sues Biden admin over 'racist' relief plan https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/wisconsin-dairy-farmer-sues-biden-admin-over-racist-relief-plan/ar-BB1gprNI Who qualifies for this debt relief? Any socially disadvantaged borrower with direct or guaranteed farm loans as well as Farm Storage Facility Loans qualifies. The American Rescue Plan Act uses the 2501 definition of socially disadvantaged, which includes Black/African American, American Indian or Alaskan native, Hispanic or Latino, and Asian American or Pacific Islander. Gender is not a criteria in and of itself, but of course women are included in these categories. https://www.farmers.gov/connect/blog/loans-and-grants/american-rescue-plan-socially-disadvantaged-farmer-debt-payments Even the latest federal lawsuit against this policy says that the case has merit, that the policy is racially discriminatory, and was granted a temporary restraining order. [https://will-law.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ORDER-on-TRO.pdf](https://will-law.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/ORDER-on-TRO.pdf) So your premise of "Recognize it for what it is - small steps towards helping eliminate the long term effects of racism and racial inequality." Then why are we mandating racism through federal policy and perpetuating inequality through federal law, denying Americans federal aid solely on the color of their skin if we are trying to achieve racial equality? You can say it is for the "greater good," but the "right-wing" sees it as perpetuating injustices to make up for past injustices. "Eye for an Eye" and all that. I could go on for days, but if you can answer this question, we will know where we stand: "Do you think the federal government should deny an American citizen federal aid based solely on the color of the individuals skin?" You can add any modifiers you want, like "to achieve racial justice" or "to achieve racial equity." Still, it will not change that central core question of your acceptance of racially discriminating against Americans based on the color of their skin for your perception of the greater good.


mthverre

I have this argument with myself all the time, and my ultimate conclusion is that equality is the answer in an ideal world. The problem is that we don't live in an ideal world. There is massive inequality in our society, and applying things equal does nothing to remedy this imbalance. Lets take the racial nature of your rebuttal out of the equation (race just adds too much baggage). Instead let's look at financial inequality. If we applied tax, finance and real estate laws equally, regardless of an individuals financial status (which we absolutely do NOT do) then the wealthy STILL come out ahead. The scales can never be balanced when you add the same amount of weight on both sides. 22% tax rate on someone making $50k is much more impactful on their life than a 22% rate on someone with tens of millions. At a BARE MINIMUM we want equality, but unfortunately that doesn't currently exist in America. Resources and wealth are already skewed. It shouldn't be seen as racist, or "reverse racist" to attempt to combat those inequalities. Equality is the goal if we already lived in an equal society, but we don't. We need to have equity before we can start making meaningful changes. So to answer your question: No, but yes. The federal government should be able to provide aide to undeserved and historically disadvantaged people. The same way that native Americans receive aid that I, as a white person, would not qualify for.


[deleted]

[удалено]


herrsatan

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StanleyLaurel

> "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized." Your last clause dilutes the definition. Racism is racism no matter who the target is.


SwimmaLBC

It IS the definition, whether you like it or not. The desperate attempts from many white people to victimize themselves by claiming that they're the real victims of racism are baffling.


StanleyLaurel

Sure, sjw's stomp there feet and bang their fists insisting their redefining of a word trumps the other definitions. Smarter people see through the bullshit and see how illogical and ideologically-driven such changes are.


dbx99

It’s not. There’s nothing that limits your ability to choose. It’s a way to increase social awareness of our diverse economy and population. It’s not like some policy either. It doesn’t mean “whites must shut down their stores” or “ride in the back of the bus”. Everything remains free to choose and use your own preferences to buy whatever you want from wherever you want. Just be aware that hey we have some stores that are minority owned and it’s a nice thing to support groups that have a long history of being mistreated and discriminated against. Getting all offended about that is like saying flying a rainbow flag excludes straight people. It’s not. It adds a note of “black owned businesses exist, let’s give them a hand!” Nothing more. People think there’s some sort of nefarious plan and knee jerk react by saying dumb shit like ALL LIVES MATTER which is actually racist because it is a reactionary move meant to drown out and bury the original message.


ethan_bruhhh

because minority owned businesses, especially black owned, face way more challenging start up costs. it’s been proven that black people/businesses are given less favorable loans for starting businesses among other things.


ThatIowanGuy

Because not having a select preference based on race creates economic problems in certain communities. Wealth retention is a big portion of this. The lifespan of a dollar in Asian communities is 28 days, Jewish communities are 19 days and white communities is 17 days. The lifespan of a dollar in black communities is about 6 hours. This shows that wealth does not accumulate in these communities unless we shop there more to raise the lifespan of that dollar. There’s many people already choosing not to shop at black owned shops because of the color of people’s skin, you’re really going to tell us that choosing to shop at black owned shops to keep them going is racism? Really?


halcyonick

My thought is that your definition of racism is really broad. > I always thought of racism as special treatment or consideration (either positive or negative) of one particular race over another. Is there a definition that fits better which would explain the thinking behind supporting businesses because they are owned by a specific race as a move away from racism? If we applied this to other protected identity groups, this definition wouldn't make much sense. (At least from popular understanding), it isn't ageism to have geriatric health care or sexist to provide gynecology services. It isn't classism to have welfare or financial aid for only low-income people. It isn't homophobic to have groups that support queer people. I think that racism generally includes an intent to harm, prejudice, etc. While this does NOT mean that supporting businesses based on race isn't racist (I'm too lazy to argue that), I think it could help make your discussion more productive. EDIT: Upon thinking about it more, I'm not sure if racism has to include harm or prejudice if an action unjustly affects a certain group even without the intent to harm. I'd appreciate more discussion - maybe it just comes down to what we as a society decide is just or unjust.


ThymeToDine

It’s not a zero-sum game where promoting a specific ethnically owned business detracts from anyone else. Equality, equity, and decency don’t take away the rights, efforts, or importance of others. Stop looking at it as an affront. It’s not. Giving exposure to some doesn’t remove the exposure of others. It’s a backwards mindset.


nhohorst

I think it can be explained similarly to the phrase "black lives matter". This is NOT implying that black lives are the ONLY lives that matter. It tries to shed light on an issue specific to people of color. The analogy can be used: if your house is on fire, the fire department isn't going to throw water on all the houses on your street, just yours, because you need help". In that same sense, black owned businesses might, sometimes need more help because of institutionalized racial biases. It's not racist to recognize an issue and try to help fix it.


Desperate_Penguin

I'd state that I find it racist to treat someone positively because of their race as it foregoes their individuality and ignores the fact they can perform actions seperate of their race, the idea that they should support a small business for the sake of media attention ignores necessary details about business such as whether it's capable of achieving success on it's own. Especially since they'll likely take over from the owner and invalidate their choices therefore removing any chance for minority based businesses to prove they can be successful and prove that any stigma that their ideas are fueled by their race wrong.


apeacefuloption

I’ll be blunt: it’s because liberal white people want to infantilize minorities because they are at their core racist. I couldn’t care less who runs the business. I care about the product. Commercials virtue signalling with a white hipster saying “support black owned businesses” is simply a way to patronize the people who pretend to care about that stuff. I support minority owned business all the time. Chinese, Indian, Thai, Vietnamese, etc. to focus on black owned businesses tells me the powers that be genuinely don’t see blacks as our equals. It’s time to actually respect black life instead of signaling we do.


Lawsuitup

I think the problem is that you have defined racism and are asking people to work with in that version of racism - where many people would disagree with that definition. Your definition seems to encompass the concept of reverse racism, which isn’t really a thing. Under your version of the definition, affirmative action is racism because it acknowledges race at all, and then gives someone a preference over someone else. However if you work under the paradigm that racism is either hatred of another for their race or a system of oppression that implicitly or explicitly harms a group of people because of their race, you can see how something like supporting minority businesses or affirmative action is not racist but merely combating the second version of racism.


renasissanceman6

You know it’s not wrong but maybe it technically is and really we gotta be technical here.


Admirable_Remove6824

It’s to help reduce the fear people have of other races. Or more likely that was created by groups that takes advantage of peoples fear. There’s a portion of society that will always use race and other things like religion to benefit them only. You may get irritated by minority advertising but just saying there is a minority business puts it in your head and someday you might be walking by and think why not check it out. It’s like how Coke is a word used around the world for soda. Long term gains.


LightSparrow

Yeah you’re right it is racist, but the broader and more confusing question now is “is racism always bad?” We’ve always associated it with a negative connotation bc for the longest time it’s just been white people hating poc. But what if there are racist attitudes to positively help/influence certain races.. is that bad?? It might be naive, but is it wrong the same way hating all of one race is wrong ? not making any statements - genuinely asking


frankieknucks

People of color have historically (in the US) been systemically kept from owning businesses, or even violently attacked for owning said businesses. This isn’t theory, this is reality and what has happened. To say “support ___ business” means that people deserve a fair shake in a system that has historically excluded them.


sawdeanz

I think on the surface it may seem the way you are characterizing it, but there are a few nuances to consider. >There is a suggestion being made that these businesses aren't doing as well because they are owned by people of a certain race. Am I wrong if I think this suggestion within itself is a form of racist stereotyping, unless it's coupled with cited evidence of some form of economical analysis/statistical measure? First, I don't think this is implied at all. It's more to do with the historical effects of segregationists policies and generational wealth. Minority businesses face the same kinds of obstacles that lead to discrepancies in minority house ownership and wealth. Second, my impression is that the idea is closely tied to the shop local movement. As in, you should support the businesses in your neighborhood, so if you are a minority in a minority neighborhood, you should consider supporting your local minority-owned businesses.


thearchitectprincess

This response brings the conversation into a sort of sticky realm, precisely because it reminds me of the whole issue with suggesting the payment of reparations to the present day African American population on the basis that them being descendants of slaves has set many of generations back from achieving the same financial successes as their peers of another race. I don't deny that the poverty cycle is a real thing, and I'm sure we can both cite many studies that discuss that aspect of it. I also understand that the offer of repayment comes from a good place. However isn't it also possible to understand something like reparations or supporting businesses as a way of "making it up to them" as racially insensitive? Mainly because you are trying to numerically scale and put a price tag on what they've missed out on due to historical policies. Also extending the timeframe of racist policies indefinitely - how, if ever, can we say, "we've done enough to make it up" (a statement that would inherently be racist since you're putting a cap on the cost of suffering/injustice) - and if we continually say to minorities with failing businesses, "the reason you're not doing as well is because your ancestors were discriminated against," even if that's no longer the case, aren't we making a racist assumption? As for the local shop movement, the follow-up question is the same as I asked another person. Why can't you just say support local businesses? Why bring race into it?


sawdeanz

>whole issue with suggesting the payment of reparations to the present day African American population on the basis that them being descendants of slaves has set many of generations back from achieving the same financial successes as their peers of another race. I respect your feelings on this topic. Reparations isn't really the angle I was going for but I can see why you feel it touches on it. The way I'm coming at it is with the thinking that maintaining the status quo won't ever result in equality. If we could start from scratch with the protections we have today, I believe that we would see a much more equal society. But the past affects the future. Having wealth makes it far more easier to create more wealth, whatever your race is. And to be fair, not all minority populations faced the same historical oppression, but I think when we say "black owned businesses" it's understood to be African American businesses. The illustration is that of a scale with piles of sand on each side. One side starts with more than the other. If you add sand at an equal rate, then the scale will be forever imbalanced. You must add a little sand more sand on the low side. Not necessarily by reparations, mind you, but perhaps in other ways like affirmative action, additional academic funding, or whatever. The danger with decrying any and all race-based solutions as bad or unfair or racist is that you end up just embracing the status quo. And if you do that, then to overcome that imbalance it's not enough to achieve, at that point you would have to expect minorities to consistently overachieve.


thearchitectprincess

Hi! After further thinking. !delta for acknowledgement that the relevance of this discussion is to achieve betterment of squo, and for explaining that there are no real alternatives if we omit all race-based solutions.


sawdeanz

Thanks. I enjoyed the discussion


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GrouseOW

>However isn't it also possible to understand something like reparations or supporting businesses as a way of "making it up to them" as racially insensitive? I mean do you have a better solution to the poverty cycle? Reparations and affirmative action aren't ideal solutions but it's better than nothing. >how, if ever, can we say, "we've done enough to make it up" (a statement that would inherently be racist since you're putting a cap on the cost of suffering/injustice) We've done enough when the amount of wealth a group owns is proportional to the size of the group? I feel like that's a pretty obvious answer. The goal is that one's race has no effect on wealth or success. >and if we continually say to minorities with failing businesses, "the reason you're not doing as well is because your ancestors were discriminated against," even if that's no longer the case, aren't we making a racist assumption? Nobody is saying POC business should never fail, it's that it should get a fair chance to succeed. In a fair system POC owned businesses would succeed at the same rate as white owned businesses, which they currently do not. There's no explanation of black people having less business ownership than white people other than systemic discrimination. Unless you believe black people inherently don't have the same ability to succeed, which is an actual racist assumption.


spicey_illegal

>However isn't it also possible to understand something like reparations or supporting businesses as a way of "making it up to them" as racially insensitive? This is the sort of comment that makes me feel like you don't "get it." If you're dying of thirst and some asshole hands you some water, are you gonna give a damn if he's racist? The point isn't about racial pride or not taking government hand outs. The point is the happiness and wellbeing of black children in this country. Of them being able to go to school and live in safer areas. You know those horrible statistics of child poverty/hunger/homelessness? All of them are worse when we focus on just black people. you keep mentioning how it's racist to help only black people. You know who likes to hear that? Racists who don't like black people and don't want to see them do well. I'm not saying you're a racist. I'm saying racists love people like you because it gives credit to their views beyond them being racist. These people are in their situations because of the actions of previous racists. How else are we suppose to fix it other than giving them special attention again.


CardinalNYC

>This response brings the conversation into a sort of sticky realm, precisely because it reminds me of the whole issue with suggesting the payment of reparations to the present day African American population on the basis that them being descendants of slaves has set many of generations back from achieving the same financial successes as their peers of another race. Flawed thinking here to believe that all that set back black Americans was slavery. Racism neither began or ended with slavery. The things holding back black people - on the basis of them being black - not only continued after slavery but they continue to this day. > >I don't deny that the poverty cycle is a real thing No, it's not just poverty cycles. It is active discrimination and systemic racism that continues to actively push black people down. >However isn't it also possible to understand something like reparations or supporting businesses as a way of "making it up to them" as racially insensitive? It's possible to view anything in any way one wants. But logically speaking your argument for why it is racially insensitive doesn't add up. >Mainly because you are trying to numerically scale and put a price tag on what they've missed out on due to historical policies. Again, not historical. Current. There are *still currently* racist policies in the US. Not to mention that policy is not the only way systemic racism is perpetuated. Also what's weont with putting a numerical scale on things? >Also extending the timeframe of racist policies indefinitely - how, if ever, can we say, "we've done enough to make it up" (a statement that would inherently be racist since you're putting a cap on the cost of suffering/injustice) - and if we continually say to minorities with failing businesses, "the reason you're not doing as well is because your ancestors were discriminated against," even if that's no longer the case, aren't we making a racist assumption? The core flaw of this thinking is that it opens a very large door for people to say "let's just so nothing, then," and belive they have made a logical choice when such a choice is actually counter factual. >As for the local shop movement, the follow-up question is the same as I asked another person. Why can't you just say support local businesses? Why bring race into it? Because racism still exists and still impacts minority businesses more than others.


Lindz1008

I know you’ve already had a good discussion regarding this point, but I also want to point out what a regard as a flaw in this argument. The assumption is that race-based policy assumes that tries to make up for slavery which happened “many of generations back”. However, I feel this ignores that, in between those generations, race-based exclusionary policy was commonplace. It’s not as if slavery ended and immediately black people were given a fair shot. In many cases, they were given the same economic system just with a bit more social freedom. All this means that policies like reparations, affirmative action, and others don’t just acknowledge slavery but also Jim Crow, redlining, and others.


Alternative_Stay_202

>The preference to support certain businesses over other businesses This is where you're getting it wrong. You don't have to support one business over another, it's just asking to support a business. For example, at the beginning of the pandemic, my area had a push to patronize black-owned restaurants. Why? Because black people have less wealth than white people and restaurants were being hit hard by COVID. No one was saying, "Don't patronize white-owned restaurants" or "Only patronize black-owned restaurants." They were just saying, "Black people in this country and this city have much less wealth than white people and that means their businesses are less likely to be able to survive financial hardship, so they could especially use your help and you should go out of your way to support them." It's pointing out a need and attempting to address it. When people talk about racism, they are often talking about *systemic racism*. That references the unequal outcomes created by the system. It's hard to argue that our current system hasn't disadvantaged black people. When trying to fight institutional or systemic racism, it's not about pretending race doesn't exist, it's about looking at outcomes for people based on race and seeing where those outcomes are inequitable. In America, black people have significantly less wealth, so patronizing their businesses (giving them wealth) is working to address that inequality and thus working to fight systemic racism.


riobrandos

>When someone asks that people support a business, simply because that business is owned by someone of a certain race, they're doing a number of things: There are other reasons that someone supports a business, namely; * The business offers a product or service one needs * The business offers said product or service at a fair price * The business has a reputation for delivering on their promise for said product or service * The product or service that the business offers is of high or comparatively high quality These are true across the board. The call to *support black-owned businesses* is taking these for granted, not calling on anyone to support a business because it is black-owned above all else. Once you grasp that, [take into context the challenges that black businessowners have faced through out American history on the sole basis of their being black businessowners.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-owned_businesses#Before_Emancipation_(until_1865)) This discrimination had nothing to do with the offerings of the business, or the price of said offerings, or the delivery record or quality of those offerings. It was **"solely because they were owned by black people."** Tulsa was only 100 years ago and people today only even know about it because of *Watchmen.* You don't think some of those shop owners could have built massive corporations in the generations that followed? That that opportunity wasn't *stolen* from them and countless other black businessowners? In light of all of that, how is deciding to patronize your local black-owned boutique shop instead of Walmart, or encouraging one to do so, an act of racism? Semantics?


thejiggyjosh

>The business offers a product or service one needs > >The business offers said product or service at a fair price > >The business has a reputation for delivering on their promise for said product or service > >The product or service that the business offers is of high or comparatively high quality ok then these are what you should say for reasons to support, not race....


LegendaryLaziness

I think race comes in when a business has all of these yet people refuse to go there. We all know why. Imagine thinking America is a meritocracy, it’s never been and it never will be.


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SquibblesMcGoo

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LockeClone

So, I'm wondering if your premise is a bit flawed to begin with? Basically, I don't think anyone is supporting businesses SOLELY based on race (except some edge cases). While it certainly is a preference modifier that's weighted differently with different people, I'm having a hard time contriving a scenario where it's the sole deciding factor for a reasonable consumer. Do you want to reframe your stance to discuss the appropriateness of weighting one's choice based on race whatsoever? Because, as provocative as your title is, I don't think it represents the world beyond sensational news.


thearchitectprincess

This has been a very perplexing issue that's been on my mind over the past two years, and largely presented itself at the early stages of the BLM movement when the "support minority businesses" Instagram posts were making their rounds, usually coupled with some very strong, emotional statements about breaking off friendships. I don't deny that my surroundings (and perhaps the age bracket I'm in) probably have significant bearings on my understanding of what the premises are or should be. I think you may be right about reframing the stance.


CardinalNYC

When I consider the times I've patronized a black owned businesses, the beginning thought is not "I need to go to a black owned business" The first thought is actually "I want lunch" And then maybe I'm considering to try a black owned lunch establishment, partly because it is black owned, partly because I've never been there before and partly because I'm hungry. I've never bought something I didn't need or at least want, solely because the business was black or minority owned.


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SquibblesMcGoo

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SquibblesMcGoo

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jerkularcirc

If one group treats another group different and causes harm. It is not prejudice for that harmed group to be compensated…


thearchitectprincess

How do you decide how much the compensation should be, and for how long?


jerkularcirc

That’s the hard part, especially if these “groups” are really ill defined, but im just illustrating it’s not automatically “racist” if there is better treatment now if there was bad treatment before.


UrgentPigeon

I’d say society should try everything it can until mean/median wealth is equal between racial groups. That’d be a good place to start.


snowfallwolf

I’d say, until people don’t consider it a problem anymore. There could eventually be too much support for minority-owned businesses but I think it’ll balance out once people see that minority owned businesses are pretty much as successful as white owned businesses. I see supporting minority-owned businesses as a trend, but one that creates enough awareness to give those businesses a boost to help them be as successful as other businesses.


thearchitectprincess

Thank you for the rephrasing. I hope this comment helps others reach greater clarity with what my question entails.


jerkularcirc

If one group has been treated unfairly, asking for reparation/compensation would not be unjust ( and this would be seen as “treating them better”). It’s just too muddled and confusing at this point though.


thearchitectprincess

Maybe? I suppose if the reparations were asked for by the group that were to receive it, and furthermore the asking price was determined by them. But numerical determination by a second or third party is where it gets potentially racist imo, since you're putting a price tag on someone's suffering.


tigerlily2021

Honest question-was it racist for the US govt to give reparations to Japanese Americans who were interned during WII?


SquibblesMcGoo

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[deleted]

This argument feels like it is under a false premise. I don't believe the call and/or choice to support these businesses is based solely on the race of the store owners. (This is disregarding extreme outliers). Instead, I think race has some form of association for why people are supporting the business. I think a good example of this would be the following: Once you're find out your favorite football player sells maps, there are two sides. Supporting someone because they are your favorite football player versus supporting them because they produce high-quality maps, was treated unfairly against, and happens to be your favourite player. (I hope this makes sense). If this perspective does not work, I'll try to apply another.. Assuming the question you based your question on is correct, this is similar to a balance scale; One gets more systemic support then the other. Asking for people to do this is to level out the balance scale a bit more; It's a chance for social change, which can lead to political change.


robotpirateninja

The false premise is the absurd definition of racism the OP uses.


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thedylanackerman

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/u/thearchitectprincess (OP) has awarded 2 delta(s) in this post. All comments that earned deltas (from OP or other users) are listed [here](/r/DeltaLog/comments/o0tpi6/deltas_awarded_in_cmv_its_racist_to_ask_that_we/), in /r/DeltaLog. Please note that a change of view doesn't necessarily mean a reversal, or that the conversation has ended. ^[Delta System Explained](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltasystem) ^| ^[Deltaboards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/deltaboards)


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SquibblesMcGoo

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Bobo_Baggins03x

In Canada, when applying for government programs, we get asked what percentage of our ownership and workforce is indigenous peoples. During public job applications, you are required to list all the minorities you belong to. As a straight white male, I’ll never make it through the algorithm for job applicants, let alone an interview. All of it is downright discriminatory and disgusting to be honest.


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LetMeNotHear

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ArmouryUK

If you are posting in CMV you should be open and willing to have your mind changed. There are some good answers here and the crux of it is, if an entire race is divested of wealth and opportunity why is a measure to level that playing field considered racist? It cannot be, it is not giving preferential treatment to black people it is raising the bar for black people to enjoy equal wealth and opportunity - that many white people enjoy by previous opportunity and accumulation of wealth. "Today we are all equal, but we got all your wealth, all your wealth from your familial labour, and we even burned down your opportunities. Good luck lol" is the racist stance here. The idea "I stole it fair and square" is not a defence. And personally I think 'please shop at black businesses' is not far enough, affluent white communities should be specifically taxed to reinvest in black communities because that's where the money from abuse and destruction of black society was diverted to.


shabba_io

I've been supporting Chinese restaurants more this past year because I worry they've lost business to idiots who associate their local Chinese restaurant with a City thousands of miles away. Not helped by a president called this the "china virus". I see it as doing my bit to balance things out. Is that racist in a dictionary definition, by the book way? Possibly. Is it racist in a way that matters - in a bad way? Absolutely not.


thearchitectprincess

!delta for tying in the discussion to your personal reasons for doing what you do. Part of the question was trying to understand the perspective of those who hold alternate opinions, and where they're coming from in doing so. Thanks.


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herrsatan

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cavemando

I have actually gained a lot of knowledge from reading this posts. I find that is closed a lot of gaps for me to be a part of a discussion and not a shouting match. One thing I would like to add is there is also an extremely poor white community that is under the exact same oppression. Race is a part of it but mostly it is a class warfare. If you are disproportionately poor as any race, it is like climbing Mount Everest to get out of it and try and and make a better future for your family. Take it from someone who lived in multiple hobo camps growing up and through a shit load of hard work and sacrifice is making a change for the first time in my family’s history. Being white and poor did not allow me any special circumstances, no free college loans or grants, no extra points for college entries, everything had to be paid for out of pocket. Working 12 hr rotating shifts and going to school was the only way for me to pull the next generation of my family from out of the cycle of being government owned all the while the color of my skin kept me from utilizing any social programs. It sucks, our country isn’t perfect, but no matter the color of your skin or how poor you are, in this country you have the opportunity to grind out a new beginning. Always remember it is equal opportunity and not equal outcome.


thearchitectprincess

In the world such as the one you have presented us, would you say it's fair to trade the movement to support x minority businesses and swap it out for the movement to support small businesses? I can't remember the citation of the paper but I do recall there being research which suggests that socioeconomic class is an even greater divider than race is. Would be happy to pull it up later if requested. Thanks for being part of the discussion.


Irrxlevance

Are you against positive discrimination in workplaces too? Because it’s essentially the same thing.


thearchitectprincess

That's a bit off-topic but I see why you mention it. I don't think it's really a question of whether or not I'm against it, but whether or not I find it to be potentially racist. One of the things I've come to understand from this entire discussion is that based on my proposed definition of racism, there are things that are racist, but also done in good faith as a step towards what people believe is achieving counterbalance and equity. Many of the solutions to the issues present and affecting minorities in the squo seem to be race-based, and whilst I do not find them to be ideal, I am unable to propose better alternatives and therefore to some degree concede on this point.


[deleted]

>One of the things I've come to understand from this entire discussion is that based on my proposed definition of racism Words have meaning. You can't just "propose definitions" to them to fit whatever argument you're making at any given time.


Upper-Thing7900

There is nothing racist about promoting minority business. That much is clear. Creating campaigns to support business based only on race and not quality of product or service is a little bit racist. What if there was a campaign aimed at white people to focus on supporting *only* white business? I bet everyone would say that’s racist, right? So here we are, dividing ourselves even further all in the name of *diversity* by segregation. 1 step forward 2 giants step back. Way to go everybody!


ThatOneGuyRunningOEM

It's racist to act discriminatory towards anyone of any kind of race. People should be judged based on what they do and who they are, not how they look. We shouldn't award different races *more* support, because that's just as racist as awarding *less* support. It still insinuates they are different, so should be treated differently.


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thearchitectprincess

I'm not too concerned with what I do personally as a consumer. I'm more interested in why people feel so strongly one way.


herrsatan

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SquibblesMcGoo

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guessishouldjoin

It's not racist to ask, it would be racist to enforce.


DefinitelyNotA-Robot

I’d like to frame this in a perspective different than race and see if we can draw some parallels. From your post (especially point #2) and a lot of the comments that others are making, I think a big reason people have this perspective is that they feel that *systemic* racism is a thing of the past. I know we can all agree there are still plenty of racists, but an argument can be made that we’ve gone so far with affirmative action and other pushes for equality that Black people are now generally equal or even advantages over white people sometimes (“reverse racism”). By generally equal I don’t mean that they won’t get called the n-word by a racist asshole, but that even though there may be less generational wealth, that nowadays they can get financial aid, and a scholarship to college for being a minority, and buy a house wherever they like and get on equal footing to the average white person with a lot of effort and a little bit of luck. That makes sense. There are so many opportunities out there *just for them* and we don’t have laws that discriminate against Black people anymore. In fact, we specifically have laws saying that that’s illegal! Theoretically you would be *absolutely right* in thinking that, and I think that’s why so many people do, at least in part, believe that to be true. Let’s leave that there for a moment and turn to another group of people. They have scholarships specifically for them that aren’t available to other people. There are special housing grants, and tax-advantaged savings accounts, and most of all, there are many different laws that make discriminating against them completely illegal! And yet every single day they complain, like Black people do, that they are systemically discriminated against, that it’s harder for them to find housing and jobs and start their own businesses and make money. I’m talking about disabled Americans. Now I am not saying that being Black is like a disability, but I do think that we can make some comparisons between two different minority groups. The ADA was passed over 30 years ago, mandating that buildings be made accessible, that employers and landlords and private business owners not discriminate against people with disabilities, and that equal opportunities would be given whenever possible. Theoretically, on paper, people with disabilities should be on completely equal footing as able-bodied people. And yet I don’t think you’d find a single person who would agree that they actually are. Imagine you’re trying to get a job in NYC. You apply and are granted an interview. Great! The building is right next to a subway station about 20 blocks away… but it’s not an accessible stop and neither is the one before it or after it. In fact, less than a third of the stations on the New York subways system are wheelchair accessible, and even the ones that are often have elevators that are out of service or have a literal pile of poop on the floor that you don’t want to sit in. You could take an Uber, but a wheelchair accessible vehicle can take more than an hour to get to you, are extremely unreliable, and 20x as expensive as the subway that an able bodied person would be able to use. In the end, you decide on the Uber, but a WAV will take too long so you decide to get a regular one since your wheelchair will easily fold up on the seat next to you. When your Uber driver arrives, he sees your wheelchair, cancels the trip and drives away even though that’s illegal and against Uber’s policy. You file a complaint and call another Uber. The next person gets there but has no idea how to fold up a wheelchair, ignores your very clear instructions and breaks the handle off as he tries to jam it in the door. You finally get to the office for your job interview twenty minutes late even though you left 2 hours early for a trip that should have only taken half an hour. You let the receptionist know you’re here and she informs you that it looks quite bad to be so late to an interview. When you talked on the phone to the interviewer, he seemed all but ready to hire you and told you the interview was just a formality, but when sees you sitting in a broken wheelchair his face changes. He goes through the motions in the interview but at the end says he doesn’t think you’re really the right fit for the company and that perhaps you’d be better suited to a more gentle environment, as theirs is very fast paced and competitive. You know that that’s code for “I don’t think a disabled person can do this job as well as an able bodied person”, but because he alluded to that rather than saying it out loud, there’s nothing you can do. You just faced a series of discrimination even though that’s not supposed to be able to happen. This is not a perfect comparison by any means. But the point I’m trying to illustrate is that discrimination happens anyways, even when there’s many laws specifically to prevent it. Studies have shown that identical resumes with a name like “La’quisha” instead of “Lauren” are far more likely to be rejected. Just last year, it was discovered that Black applicants are denied 80% more than white applicants, and that discrepancy remains even when controlling for age, credit history, and salary. Even if you take out the “past” that means Black families have less wealth to pass to their children in the present to get started with, that Black students might have a harder time getting in to college because their parents weren’t able to go to college and so can’t guide them through the process like a white patent could, that kept Black people in poorer neighborhoods that they still live in today and thus go to underfunded schools because of the lower property taxes. Even in this day and age, even with all the laws we have against it, Black people are *absolutely* still being discriminated against and absolutely still have a harder time starting a business. The push to support Black-owned businesses is because of this reality that exists even with the anti-discrimination laws and ostensible equality. I don’t think as many people would mind a push to support businesses owned by disabled people because they recognize the struggles that disabled people have faced and want to do their part to combat the inequality that is still rampant. To me, supporting Black businesses isn’t a race issue at all. I see it as supporting a group of businesses that on the whole face more struggles than others. And I don’t think it’s following a stereotype or saying that Black people are less capable. It’s simply an acknowledgement of the inequalities that exist and doing my part to combat that where I can.


Zealousideal-Fan-409

Unless you research every (and I mean every) business you ever deal with (that includes the manufacturers of products) and confirm that all are free of racism, including where they donate or invest. Choosing a business by who owns it solely based on the color of their skin is 100% racist. Now the intent behind it is meant for good, however it will never be adequate enough or fair enough. It is unfortunately a flawed idea. Maybe something positive and fair will evolve from the idea.


rokudaimehokage

"Support black owned businesses" why, are black people incapable of marketing their product effectively? Seems like a fucked up insinuation that black owned businesses deserve more support than any Mexican, Asian, Hawaiian, Muslim, or Irish business. Also what if black owned businesses aren't selling what I'm looking to purchase, do they suggest I should waste my money on stuff I never wanted?


jimbaker

Businesses get my support when they're a business worth supporting. I don't care who owns the business. You make great sandwiches? Here's my money. You make great sandwiches but treat your employees like shit? Best of luck to ya. This is why I don't shop at places like Walmart. Not because they don't need my money, but because fuck the Walton's, that's why.


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hacksoncode

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Jaysank

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PogueMaThoin

I think its racial, not racist. Racism implies someone is being wronged do to the actions of or as a result of the special treatment; either positive or negative. Deciding to break away from your norm to help someone else regarding their race isn't racist. No one is saying "stop shopping at white owned business." This is basically a BLM question wrapped up in a "shopping by race" paper. Asking to be included because its feels like race has excluded you isn't racist, it is racial. The act of excluding because of race is racist. When some one says "hey, include me, ive been excluded because of my race." the proper response is not "So you want special attention because of your race? Thats racist." Confusing being racial and being racist is tough sometimes but mostly is just a reflection of what's in your heart. Its a group of people, feeling excluded because of race, acknowledging they are being excluded because of their race. In all your examples, i dont see anything where that hurts anyone else, other than those who would rather exclude them. Asking for attention because you see everyone else getting it except you is fair.


AskWhyKnot

1. You're not racist. 2. Racists exist. 3. Racists won't shop at the black-owned stores, even if they are "better" in all objective measures. 4. The potential customer population is smaller for black-owned stores because the racists won't shop there. 5. You should shop at black-owned stores not *because* you're racist, but to *offset* the business they lose from the racists. TL;DR - If no racists existed, you wouldn't need to shop a black-owned stores. But to offset the known racism that exists, you should seek out black owned stores.


RedditExplorer89

Not OP so I'll explain where I am coming from: I don't buy into the idea that current-day white people should have to pay for their ancestor's mistakes, which is a sentiment I see associated with the "shop black-owned stores". The !delta is for looking at it as offsetting current-day racists, which feels much more tangible of an issue to me. I think this is a good reason to consider shopping black-owned stores.


critt50

Do good work, supply a great service, have an affordable rate, provide great customer service. These are the only things people care about. The only ones talking about the businesses race are people pushing an agenda. Stop being told what to think and learn how to thing. If someone is trying to divide you, they are trying to conquer you. We’re all in this together, don’t let them divide us...


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thearchitectprincess

Well, I'm not entirely concerned about what I personally do. It's more of a thought experiment in that I am interested why the people who feel so strongly feel that way.


UCBeef

From a conversation with a friend that owns a minority run business it was explained, “we wouldn’t need Pro xxx businesses if it weren’t for people that are Anti xxx.” These people try to hurt their business for the simple fact that they exist.


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thedylanackerman

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thedylanackerman

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hacksoncode

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hacksoncode

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3superfrank

Think of it this way: If something shitty happened to a business you liked, then it's acceptable, and sometimes expected, that said business may ask for donations or other forms of support because of it. And in those cases, some people consider it moral to give those businesses their support in times of need. Whether it be something like corona, which I'm sure you've seen or, say, racial discrimination. The sad reality is, in some places, there's pretty much no question that a minority-run business is or has been discriminated against, without compensation. It's in those places specifically, where (in a sick turn of events,) just being a certain race can give you moral grounds to ask for support, since nobody's doubting your suffering/benefit from your race. The concept seems to be based off the idea of [affirmative action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affirmative_action_in_the_United_States) in that the goal is to level the playing field for people hampered by discrimination, through giving them additional support. Just this time, it's businesses asking the consumer to do it. So if one's ideology agrees with that idea, and is collectivist, one may consider themselves (and everyone else) obligated to support X-race businesses in a certain area, hence the insistence in 'asking'. It seems you OP take issue with the idea of counterbalancing against racism, so I'll try to clear up any misunderstandings on that front: >Whilst I don't deny that the cycle of poverty is real, it seems racially (or generally, idk) insensitive to say we can balance stuff out simply by doing x. Such behaviour comes with good intentions but it attempts to quantify the magnitude of other people's suffering, which is problematic. The goals of practices like affirmative action can be more grounded than that; For example there are methods to quantify poverty in different populations and represent it in the form of statistics for comparison. Through accomodating for certain variables, you can reasonably identify results affected by racism, and work to change those effects to the desired number. In short, there is no need to quantify *how much* *emotional suffering* a population has been through, to justify fixing things like a gender pay gap for example. >Firstly: is it not racist to continually single the descendants of certain races out, and tell them that they aren't doing as well because of their ancestors' past? Well, no. While preferably you would compensate people for discrimination on a case-by-case basis rather than by an average, the difficulty of finding and proving all the ways each person has been discriminated has made that method pretty prohibitive; it'd be worse than trying to prove rape. So the only workable solution is treating everyone the same. Of course, this will mean some people will be a bit over-compensated, and others a bit under-compensated, but in most cases, that scenario considerably better than leaving things as they are. >Second: when, if ever, can we say we've done enough to right the wrong? Who are we to decide? Is it racist to think we can? As I've said; once you can confirm how balanced a specific set of circumstances *should* be, and are moving towards that, this stops being a problem. What I should probably mention though is that, the way I see it, this isn't 'an eye for an eye' like some people would have you believe, but just making the best of a bad situation.


cassigayle

I disagree based on how i define "racism". Ideologically, racism is a belief or conviction- conscious or unconscious- that a person's race can define their character and their value as a human being. This generally invovles a value system which rates superiority and inferiority based on race. 1. Urging the public to help balance the scales of historical racism by choosing to spend money they would already be spending at stores owned/run by a specifc race is not a racist act. Neither is choosing to shop this way. It in no way applies a character judgement on those business owners. It does not imply that those individuals are in some way superior or inferior based on their race. 2. It has not been suggested- there is an overwhelming historical trend of certain races being manuevered from childhood to pursue almost anything except business ownership. Of folks being denied business loans, being turned down for leasing business offices/buildings, being hit with heavier citations from code enforcement, being fraudulently reported to code enforcement by consumers, etc based on race. These statistics are... well... numbers are just numbers. They only tell us facts true at the time they were collected. The data itself isn't a value judgement. All of these factors affect the ability of business owers to get started and stay in business. Then we come to community and customers. Certain races are statistically more likely to be treated as inferior by customers. Customers harassing "an employee" who are shocked to discover they have been insulting the owner do not comprehend the stress of being treated poorly by the community when you choose to put yourself in that spotlight and take on the monumental task of running a business. These numbers shift regionally. Some areas are heavier hit than others. But choosing to support a business because you want to do simple Real things to support a specific community that has been oppressed for so long does not express a belief that that community is inferior. And honestly, i have zero expectation for the average person to have citations like that. I do support folks who consider the ethics of where they spend their money. 3. Again, this goes to defining racism. Making a choice based on race is not inherently racist. Choosing to manufacture a dark skinned astronaut Barbie specifically to give that image to young humans with dark skin is a choice based on race, and a good one. A clothing designer who chooses models based on race because they are designing clothing of cut and color that are more likely to be flattering to a specific build and skin color is not racist. Preference is not racist. The idea that any race is inherantly inferior or superior to another, that is racism. The idea that you can determine moral character or value as a human based on their race is racism. The old man at the farmer's market sputtering about how "all those little mixed kids are just too hyper and don't have any self control, that's just how it goes when you mix the bloodlines," that's racism. Ascribing some personality or character trait or ethical assumption or moral assumption to a person based on race is racism.


[deleted]

1. No one is directly advocating for you personally to buy from a particular POC owned shop. It is more about bringing awareness to the everyday (mostly white) person's subconscious bias. It's like you are shopping for a new car and you are thinking about getting an SUV. One of your parents worked for Honda and the other for Toyota, so you have a Toyota RAV4 and a Honda CR-V in mind. Then your friend says, "hey, I know you're looking for an SUV, have you thought about the Ford explorer?". They're not telling you that you must get the Ford, it's just maybe something you didn't even think of because of brand loyalty. Sometimes privileges aren't about the things that are given as an extra, sometimes a privilege is not worrying/or even thinking about it at all. These small business/POC business campaigns are just trying to remind the everyday shopper that there is more out there than Walmart and Target. Taking time with yourself to address your unconscious biases is one of the ways to deplete/avoid racism, and sometimes that means putting in a little effort to go out of your way just to CONSIDER a POC business. 2. It seems like you're hung up about not focusing on the past/people of today shouldn't have to be held accountable for the crimes of our ancestors. I understand the frustration of cleaning up a mess, for lack of a better term, that isn't yours, but where do we draw the line? We can't just let something like slavery "slide". I mean, we are still dealing with the repercussions of slavery, systematic oppression, and racism, so why not still say sorry? If I had a great grandparent that was a Nazi and they murdered people, you bet your ass I would be ashamed of them and do everything I could to write their wrongs. So, there is no legal responsibility, it is more of a nuanced moral responsibility. 3. This isn't particularly with you OP, more just in general, but we we shouldn't be striving for equality, we should understand that people need equity. A $10,000 scholarship would mean the world to a kid who grew up in section 8 housing, but would mean almost nothing to the kid of the CEO of Kellogg. Do you know what I'm mean? It's kind of like what I said in point 1, some people just need a little extra help. Sure, an able bodied person might enjoy a wheel chair ramp but it's not a necessity for accessibility. But for someone on crutches or in a wheel chair, it can mean having access to a building or not. It's not necessarily extra, it's just making it fair because some people have handicaps (psychically, emotionally, intellectually, and economically). So yes, to answer your question, we should treat all business equally regardless of the race of the workers/owners. Just be aware of your biases and that you are ACTUALLY giving everyone a fair shot. Sorry if formatting or spelling is shit.


BenchPuzzleheaded670

There is one metric that I use to determine if something or someone is racist... I ask: Is there a belief of SUPERIORITY involved? Therefore it's all about the WHY. It is often impossible or difficult to establish WHY someone feels how they feel, but every now and then, someone slips up and explicitly says something racist like "I am not attracted to X race because of Y stereotype/generalization". In my book, "Asians tend to be better at math" is not racist, but "Asians tend to be better at math, and that makes them better", is. It's a fine line, but the gist is that you shouldn't take a specific attribute and apply it to the entire people. It's insulting to everyone, including the people one might be trying to bolster. Okay, so what does this have to do with supporting a business owned by a race? Well, in my opinion, it's NOT racist. It's not racist because it doesn't imply any sort of superiority/inferiority. It reminds me of Affirmative Action. I believe the motivation is to help traditionally disadvantaged shops gain market footing to break into the retail space which has been traditionally dominated by white males (not sure this is still the case). I strongly disagree with people labeling everything racist, and that's why I draw my line at the notion of superiority. People can have biases, believe in stereotypes (without superiority), be assholes, be ignorant, and all sorts of things without being racist. Another reason I choose to place the emphasis on the WHY of superiority is that it places the burden of interpretation onto the listener. The listener is now charged with thinking about whether superiority is REQUIRED in order for the speaker to have their opinion. I like this angle because it gives the opportunity for a listener to use clarifying questions to tease out the reasoning for what could be perceived as racist. I like this as opposed to simply reducing what people say to their lowest common interpretation. How often have you been burned by saying something that was simply interpreted as racist because words have multiple meanings and it was difficult to juggle all possible interpretations at once? Focusing on superiority helps us not to jump to conclusions, and remove the ambiguity of what is simply tasteless (ex: a white person saying the n-word when singing a rap song) and what is truely racist (calling countries shithole countries). ​ Anyway, I got off topic there. The small businesses question - I don't think it's racist. It's racially motivated, it's potentially harmful, it's short-sighted, it's maybe demeaning, it sets a poor precedence, it rightfully suffers all of the criticisms you give it, but it's not racist in my book.


webbphillips

A lot of people agreeing with OP's original view using the argument that asking for support for white-owned businesses is clearly racist, so asking for support for e.g. black-owned businesses also is. This class of argument sounds reasonable, and a lot of people are convinced by it, but it relies on the false implicit assumption that our society is colorblind to begin with. In reality, American society has huge historical and ongoing systematic anti-black racism. A lot of the appeal of this argument is that it allows those who accept it to ignore context and think no further about the systematic racism problem, our ancestors' role in it, how we continue to benefit from it, and how, in a democracy, we are all complicit until we fix it. I think if comes to understand why Black Lives Matter is not racist, then, by analogy, one can come to understand why asking for support for black-owned businesses is also not racist. Black Lives Matter is a slogan which is shorthand for something like: we can all see that this society acts as if black lives specifically don't matter, so let's all stand together to insist that black lives do matter, and to change things together to end America's systematic racism against black people. If there was a society that was systematically racist against white people, then White Lives Matter would also make sense and not be racist, but, in the context we're in, it doesn't make sense, and it's clearly just a reactionary slogan against Black Lives Matter. Likewise for All Lives Matter. It's totally reasonable if you ignore all context. Or, if a society was treating all citizens' lives with disregard, this would be a reasonable slogan, but, in the context we're in, it's just a reactionary slogan against Black Lives Matter. Likewise for Blue Lives Matter. This might be a reasonable slogan in a society with a systematic problem of police being killed, and if someone had thought of it first so it wasn't clearly just a reactionary slogan against Black Lives Matter. Context matters. "Don't move or you're dead" means something different coming from a surgeon vs. a bank robber. The context in which people are asking for support for black-owned businesses is a context where there is longatanding and ongoing systematic racism against black people, and where implicit bias causes people to favor white-owned businesses even when all other factors are equal, and where the ancestors of white Americans were able to own and pass on wealth and power, whereas the ancestors of black Americans weren't allowed to do so, and still face extra hurdles in doing so today.


Demtbud

While I would definitely argue that it's racially incomprehensible for a white person in a white area with no personal interest in a black-owned business for its own sake to go out of their way to support them, I can't imagine it being racist on the whole. I just saw a commercial where some white guy pledged to support black owned businesses, and as a black person, this was just the geechiest thing I've seen in forever. Still wrapping my head around that one. That said, if blacks in black neighborhoods (or, you know, others in predominantly black areas) were implored to patronize their business owning neighbors, in that whole grass-roots, pulled by their own bootstraps fashion that certain political voices feel is lacking in those areas, in order to build up their communities, then I find no racism therein. I mean, just cuz' Chinese people in the various ethnic communities in America don't crow about supporting their own doesn't mean they don't absolutely do that. Of course, there is also the issue of the double-speak that some like to engage in, i.e. "Blacks should take responsibility for their own communities, and not rely on outside help!" Followed by: "Support black owned businesses? But that's discrimination! Which is necessarily racist!" Say that in a predominantly black jurisdiction, there are a lot of businesses. A bunch of Indians over here, some Asians over there, and a bunch of white people in between. They all profit from that community (and btw, I'm using those groups for a reason) but there is no influx of capital to that community from those businesses. They have no interest in that community outside of what profits they can make off it. When these people go home, it's the next town over or what have you. The people in that community remain poor and disadvantaged, because money is only ever leaving, and nothing is coming in. Then a few people in that community manage, beyond all probability, to secure business loans in order to compete with the existing businesses. Wouldn't it behoove not only these people, but the community at large, to make a push to support these businesses? To enrich their neighborhoods, and to put pressure on those who, for lack of a better term, leech off the reliance of the people? And if self-reliance is racism, then the bar for racism has been set too low.


Catsdrinkingbeer

I look at it like this, and will relate it to the craft beer industry because I'm very familiar with it, and because "support your local craft brewery" is a huge thing: There are like 50+ craft breweries in Seattle (where I live). When I first moved here I went to the same ones - the bigger names that I already knew and are well known throughout the country, and then the closest one by my house, because it was the closest to my house and literally no other reason. So how do I decide what other establishments to visit? I have a ton of options open and available. Do I go based off yelp and google reviews? Do I go based off word of mouth from friends? Do I go based on how cool the website looks? No matter my reason for going, if the beer is good I'll put that brewery into my rotation, but if the beer isn't, I'm not going to go back. I'm not going to support my local brewery **just** because it's a local brewery. If your beer sucks I'm not going to spend money there. I will happily purchase a well made faux-craft (so, "craft breweries" owned by Coors or ABI, like Goose Island or Breckenridge) over a poorly made local beer. The fact you're local means I will absolutely give you a shot, but doesn't mean I will continue to support you in spite of that. So I look at black owned business the same way. If I'm wanting to try a new restaurant or brewery, maybe I'll go to one of the black owned businesses. It's just as arbitrary of a reason to pick the restaurant as anything else. If I want to get some artisanal candles or soaps and there's a black owned business, I'll give their items a shot when I'm ready to restock on those items. I think this gets twisted to be the idea that you're supporting a business you wouldn't otherwise support, and I don't think that's true. I'm not going to go to the fitness studio 45 minutes away from my house just because it's owned by a black woman, because that makes zero sense. I'm going to go to one near my house that's in my price range that has the services I want, regardless of who owns it. If I have 3 options that fit my criteria then sure, maybe I decide to give the black owned business a shot, because I have to make a decision somehow. That reasoning is just as arbitrary as anything else.


sudsack

Since several comments have noted the importance of context, I think this might warrant mention: * Overall Poverty Rate: 10.5% (34.0 million people) * African American Poverty Rate: 18.8% (8.1 million people) * White Poverty Rate: 7.3% (14.2 million people) This is 2019 data from [https://talkpoverty.org/basics/](https://talkpoverty.org/basics/). The poverty rate in the US in much, much higher for black people than white people, but millions more white people live in poverty than black people. That there are more white people in poverty probably comes as no surprise since whites are the majority population; white people are something like 60.1% of the population per the census bureau while black people are 13.4%. I mention it because so often it seems that people conflate race and economics, and imagine that black=poor and white=rich (or at least comfortably middle class). We have a system that produces massive disparities in wealth, but it seems like a lot of people only care that it does so *disproportionately*. I don't agree that this shop-at-the-right-businesses approach is racist, but I don't think there's an easy label for what's weird about it. Treating it as a serious solution gives cover to corporations ("we buy our paperclips from a minority-owned business, so just ignore the economic despair we've caused by closing our manufacturing sites in the US"), to the government ("we give preferences to minority-owned contractors, so we're fighting poverty"), and to the wealthy ("we have all of our groceries delivered by a minority-owned business, so ignore the fact that we're thriving while millions of people are struggling"). Whether it's racist or not racist is going to depend on definitions, but either way it's an approach that works according to the logic of a system that produces inequality. I think you should change your view and spend less energy on considering whether or not this "support black business" movement is racist. Instead I'd start to think about why we focus on an approach that fails to really challenge an unjust system and in a way even reinforces it.


chinmakes5

So look up any 10 VERY successful businesses. Many had their starts decades ago, when minority owned businesses weren't going to be successful enough to morph into one of the big businesses. Or. look at Bezos or Trump who were able to do what they did because of large family loans that very few minority families could have supplied. So, the question is do we do nothing about that because doing that is racism? or do we give some minority businesses a slight advantage so down the road things will be more equal? Now for me, we have to do something not because of people being racist. but because those racist people wrote this into law. The laws of parts of the country IN MY LIFETIME. very specifically harmed black people. You don't want to go to a minority owned business, so be it. To say that minorities don't have as much as whites because of their own problems, is naive at best. Yes in my family, my wife's grandparents were college educated. 3 of 4 of my kids' grandparents went to college, my wife and I went and my kids went. Not much to see here. We knew the value of college, we knew how to prepare our kids to go to college. Even before I had kids I knew to make sure the school system where I lived was acceptable. Compare that to a black person DURING MY LIFETIME state colleges didn't take black people. (as seen in the movie Hidden Figures). How or why would a black person know what college would do for them, know how to prepare their children for college if their grandparents couldn't even go. Let's not talk about what jobs were available to a black college grad.


WonderWall_E

>Second: when, if ever, can we say we've done enough to right the wrong? Who are we to decide? Is it racist to think we can? Those who argue that we need to do more to engage in policies to economically compensate the descendents of victims of racist policy virtually never frame things like reparations in terms of atonement or "correcting" things. It's obvious that no amount of money can properly atone for historical atrocities like the Holocaust, or slavery. Setting that aside, what should we be correcting? The ongoing legacy that racial discrimination caused should be nullified moving forward. If you believe that there is no genetic difference in intelligence, or industriousness between different racial groups, then the differences that exist between these groups in income, wealth, homeownership, educational attainment, and a thousand other factors can be attributed to historical factors. Because of these differences, the legacy of racism from the past continues to impact people in the present. The goal of reparations, or any program which seeks to restore balance should be to eliminate the repercussions of historically racist policies from society in the present and in the future. In short, we'll know that we've done "enough" when there is no significant difference in measures of economic status, public health, or educational attainment between racial groups. By all indications, we've got a long way to go, and the question "when have we done enough" is not something we really need to worry about for decades if not centuries to come.


brokenCupcakeBlvd

A large part of it is often just helping “your people” and humanizing the business, I think. My dad is retired and owns a small business now and on both his website and FB page in his about it mentions him being “a veteran with multiple tours overseas.” When I first moved to where I am now one of the first things I did was find the “Mexican area” with a panderia and a Mexican market for groceries that I couldn’t get in a Walmart. People make small talk with me there or when I didn’t have enough cash for sweets at the panderia my first time there ( they didn’t accept card and I normally don’t carry cash) they let me have the rest for free and just asked me to pay it back the next time I came. It was a nice gesture, but I do think it was also an implicit trust because I was part of ‘the community’ so to speak. It’s the same reason people get so excited when they see people of their own group become a famous actress, or on the Forbes success lists. You feel like you’re helping your own and your community. It’s not Walmart it’s a produce store owned by a member of your community. It’s not Jeffery Star it’s an eyeshadow line made by a women just like you. There are of corse white people who post those mega threads of black owned businesses but tbh that often comes across more performative then anything and if you were to be able to actually see who actually actively makes decisions with where they purchase based on race I would bet most of them are people of whatever group the owner is and they feel a sense of camaraderie.


lizardaliens

There’s a difference between equity and equality. Equality is giving everyone the same treatment. The problem that occurs from this is that it does nothing to solve current systemic inequalities in society. The end result can be inequality. Equity is giving people different treatment so that the end result is more equal. I’ll give an example. I’m a teacher so I’ll explain how that works in the classroom. If I give everyone equal attention, then the kids who perform well will continue to perform well while the kids who struggle will continue to struggle. If I spend more time with struggling kids, then the kids who perform well will continue to perform well but now struggling kids will perform closer to their more privileged peers. The classroom at the end of the year will be more equal in skill than it otherwise would be. Since African American communities have been oppressed for hundreds of years, there is currently inequality. The idea with affirmative action, reparations, black history month, or helping black businesses is not to give equal action but to give action that strives for the end result of equality. If we were to give completely equal treatment then we would be ignoring historic and current racism that exists. Once racism fades and racial equality truly exists economically then this sort of “support black businesses” would be racist. But since there are economic disparities it is actually the opposite of racist. It is acknowledging that there’s a problem and then attempting to fix said problem.


H_Arthur

I’m Vietnamese. Pho is very popular. Do not go to some ultra gentrified, white owned, fusion vegan pho restaurant. Firstly it’ll probably taste like crap. And people of color immigrated to not only assimilate and live better lives but also to bring a part of their culture to share, one of which is food, one of the easiest and greatest ways to appreciate culture. Going to a gimmicky restaurant that shows no care to the culture it’s stealing from is insulting. I think op is focused on businesses that are not culturally tied. Even then, there are places with higher populations of immigrants that have businesses specifically targeted to those immigrants. It is not coincidental that in a city with a large Asian population you will find more Asian centric businesses, meaning the people who run those businesses can speak the same language as the correlating population. I can’t speak much in terms of black owned businesses but I am pretty sure it follows the same logic. Large black populations will have more black owned businesses which is what we mean when we say “support businesses of color.” The tip is mostly used for our own (people of color) sake. Despite living in the melting pot of America, there are millions of people who came here under the same circumstances. Either by enslavement, war or refuge. Providing business to our cultural brothers and sisters helps with bolstering community empowerment and sustainability.


Mstonebranch

In 2021 there is real racism fueled by ignorance and / or hate and then there are words or deeds that people call racist in order to exert power over others, shame, draw attention to their own virtue and to a small extent do inadvertent harmful to the cause of racial justice by frustrating a lot of people. A call for support of an individual or group of people is technically racist but probably not of the harmful variety. It’s a call to lift up PEOPLE within a community and eventually that will be enough. Soon we won’t have to say, “support this black business or this women owned businesses!” It will simply be support these businesses because they are great! Constantly emphasizing race, sex, sexual orientation… it can get tiresome. But look at it as a growing pain towards a better time. We will get there, together as one. We are evolving so quickly it is mind boggling. We will get there sooner than you know. I am only 40. It was not ok to be gay when I was 10. Nor for thousands of years before that in most cultures. There are rainbows everywhere this month. It’s too much for some people. But it is part of a beautiful progress. In the meantime - if you are peeved by the constant race talk, focus your own energies on loving your neighbors. The individuals. Not because of any group they might pertain to. If you don’t like the group talk, know people individually. Love the individual.


dirtydave13

This is called reverse racism. Picking out a store because for example it's black owned over a store that is white owned when the white owned store is closer and has better pricing. I'm not fully convinced this is bad but that's what it's called. I will drive out of my way to support a cause (whether it be supporting a black owned store or an Indian owned restaurant) because I feel the community needs to invest in it. It's nice to help these communities. At the same time if I go to a place to try to show support and they're not really trying to impress (I'm struggling to find the right word,but basically if I drive out of my way to show support and buy something that is more expensive then this place should show interest in retaining me wether it be w extra friendliness or cleanliness idk anything to show you appreciate the support because I'm sure you know you're more expensive or further out the way then let's say a Walmart, then that's not cool) me, then why would I return. That's where I think the reverse racism gets out of hand. I think it's ok to use the gimmick local/black/Mexican/etc owned to get people in and I think it's good as a consumer to seek these places out but I think it's bad for these places to expect or only have that gimmick to be the attraction. So yes I'm w you after a certain point. But it's not racism it's reverse racism.


spicey_illegal

Way I look at it, black people have been oppressed and given the short stick in this country for 100s of years. This modern day "racism" is just another effort to correct all the injustices of the past against these people and their previous families. "Slavery ended 200 years ago." Then you have a very narrow view of black history in this country. You know about the Tulsa massacre? That wasn't the only massacre where black people lost wealth. Even today we see black home owners get shafted 10s of thousands on home appraisals. Your first question, is it racist to help a certain group of people who need help? Sure? But don't they still need help given how much time has past and how little wealth is held by them? Or we could take a different approach and ask why this group is still behind. Is it because they're just not good business people compared to the whites? >Second: when, if ever, can we say we've done enough to right the wrong? Who are we to decide? Is it racist to think we can? This is a silly question that needlessly complicates things. We'll know we've helped when black family no longer have a median income of 40k compared to the 70k white families get. When black families have better percentages of college degrees and high earning jobs. We'll know it's better when theres much less suffering for black people in this country. edit: and it isn't racist for white people to give money to minorities. You have to realize, white people have all the money in this country. Where else are they suppose to get it from?


mountainjay

For decades in the last century Black neighborhoods were zoned in such a way by Federal and State governments that they were deemed “highest risk” for lending because of Redline laws. This meant they could never qualify for the same loans or traditional financial support that white owned businesses and families made their money off of. Moreover, there are hundreds of examples where once Black businesses became self-sufficient (ex. Black Wall St in Tulsa, OK) they were utterly destroyed physically or through systemic policies created by whites in order to preserve a “racial social order.” The idea of supporting Black-owned businesses largely comes from an understanding that those purely racist policies and actions that were prevalent well into the late 20th century had generational impacts on Black families and neighborhoods. White business owners have had decades to build wealth that Black owners haven’t because of these laws/actions. Asking people to support an historically marginalized community in many ways is the “open market capitalist” way of acknowledging this injustice. I’m also sure it is more preferable to you than choosing other routes like federal/state reparations paid to black business owners/families who had their business taken away/destroyed/etc by verifiably racist policy decisions by the US/State governments.


RWill420

This post smells Caucasian. If you had to live even a single day with dark skin, you would understand the racist undertone that America runs on. Support black business because in the 1950's my father still had to deal with segregation, because George Floyd had a police officer kneel on his neck and kill him, because I can't walk down the street without being stared at, because I was called a coon all throughout high school, because RACISM AND THE IDEA THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE PREDISPOSED TO VIOLENCE AND POVERTY BECAUSE OF THR COLOR OF OUR SKIN IS WRONG. You don't understand the importance and significance of a black person owning a business and wanting to support that business despite all the fucked up things we have to deal with. We aren't even asking for special treatment, we just want the same courtesy a white person gets. Have you been on the internet at all lately??? Did you not see the article about black homeowners using a white persons face to sell their home and got double what the were first appraised at when they tried. Have you ever walked into a job interview with the name Rachel, get there, and then have the people do literal laps around the place looking for some white girl; and the dismissal when they realize it's a black girl? SUPPORT BLACK BUSINESSES, BLACK LIVES MATTER!!!!!!


moufette1

Generational poverty isn't because of slavery for the 400 years, it's because of the active overtly negative racist actions and institutional policies since and continuing to the current day. Red-lining so that federal funds were deliberately spent only so white people could buy property and so that property in black neighborhoods was more expensive. The disparate treatment of differing drugs based on race: cocaine, meh; crack, life without parole. The current laws passed by current state legislatures deliberately and overtly meant to suppress the black vote. The current NFL announcing that they're abandoning race based payments for that chronic concussion damage that resulted in white players getting more money for less damage. Seek out some reading on this topic from much better sources than the internet and random redditors. Is it racist to buy Dos Equis or Corona and party with your pals on Cinco de Mayo or buy Guiness and do the same on St. Patrick's Day? Do you put up a Rainbow Flag during Pride Month? It's not going to kill anyone to shop local or support a small business or vote for politicians who remove racist (or sexist or ageist or ableist) barriers to targeted groups. And it's fine if you're a cis white guy to shop at a cis white guy shop too. Many things can be true at once.


nahyalldontknow

You saying it's "racist" to support a business just because it's black owned is no different then hating Kaepernick because he "disrespected our troops" or saying "all lives matter" when someone says black lives matter. You want to just deflect and refuse to acknowledge the real issues the black community are facing. So you hide behind this it's "racism to white people" veil to deflect. It's more racist to get triggered about people wanting to support people who have systematically oppressed than to support those businesses solely because they are black owned. Why is this even an issue? We're not taking any money of your pocket, we're not raising your taxes or asking for reparations. Simply saying "support black businesses", is about as bare minimum of a statement as "black lives matter". The entire country was built by white people to benefit white people. Why is it so terrible that we bring some attention and business to marginalized minorities? You realize that there are alot of black people still alive today that lived during a time of LEGAL DISCRIMINATION FROM THE US GOVERNMENT. Saying hey let's support these people who have been systematically oppressed in the past is not racism.


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ViewedFromTheOutside

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hacksoncode

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ketchupisspicytoo

I can’t speak on any other areas but in my city a lot of black owned businesses offer products that people wouldn’t initially think to try (for example restaurants that serve foods you wouldn’t typically think about or have heard of) that are heavily influenced by cultural differences. As a result many get less business, the way I take it isn’t going there because it’s a black owner but to try new things I wouldn’t typically be looking for that these businesses offer. That and the shop local aspect that has been elaborated on. Beyond that if I can get the same product at the same price with the same service at a black owned businesses it’s a social awareness thing to buy it there vs somewhere else because regardless of race I’d want to support someone who may face challenges a competitor might not. This also applies to supporting small businesses over a corporation and in this case personally I’d choose any small businesses but especially effects black owned businesses in many situations.


boredgamer42

Trigger Warning with Killer Mike on Netflix does an excellent job exploring this topic. After segregation ended black people could choose to shop at white businesses, but white people would not choose to shop at black business. This means that money is constantly flowing from black communities to white communities. The government post segregation made it much more difficult for black people to get the loans they needed to open businesses. Fast forward to today and that means that going to a random business today means that the owner is most likely going to be white. You want to choose a business without biases like it's a game of roulette, where you have an equal chance of winning on black or red. But it's set up so that black or red support white people and only the green 00 supports black people. You vote with your dollar and when you support a black owned business you help support communities that have been neglected or worse for hundreds of years.


adumbguyssmartguy

This post is probably old enough for this to get buried, but: There is tons of research showing that minorities have a harder time starting businesses (and getting jobs and mortgages, even when equally qualified), so the point of the campaign is, I think, to say "here is a business you wouldn't have even heard of for structural and social reasons, how about try it and see what you think. "Patronize this business only because the owners are black (or whatever)" is clearly an appeal to race and probably bad. But I've never seen a call to shop at a crappy black-owned store just because it was owned by a black person. Rather, the push seems to be to raise awareness of minority-owned businesses that produce the same quality and price as established, larger, and usually white-owned businesses... and where people may not shop because it is in a part of town they don't normally visit or because their social network isn't connected to that community.


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hacksoncode

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Chnkypndy

Right, it does not make sense to support a business just because it is owned by people of a particular race. It is similar to diversity should not be a factor in career recruitment. But, it is only half the answer. The idea presented has an assumption that the barriers of entry does not encompass anything race specific. And that is not the case. Our society is changing, no doubt, but the problem is with the rate of change. These steps taken in order to support the minorities is to bring the much needed change at a faster rate. After hundreds of years of absolute dominance, the privileged section of the society cannot absolve themselves for the damages caused to the minorities, whether direct or indirect. Equal opportunities for everyone is the desired objective. Although I'm not sure how good the current steps are, they are at least taking our thinking in the right direction.


nickoftime444

Honestly, it’s very simple. You are propping people up who in the past and present have been systematically oppressed. Forget whether it’s racist or not - that racism has happened and continues to happen is just implicit, true, and inevitable (the definitions of racism vary so this statement can vary in its force). You said it’s “sticky” - listen, it’s not the fucking solution to save the world. You also don’t have to do it. It’s just a way to help people, if racial marginalization is a cause you care about (which many would argue you should but I make no such claim). You made a lot of claims above which I don’t care to support/refute specifically but I think I addressed the bulk of your premises implicitly Source: skeptical white dude who attends a social justice-centric university with classes dedicated to it in every course, and a social justice course which I took


sygyt

I think the only problem here is your seemingly (?) value neutral definition of racism that doesn't align with our usual understanding of racism as something that's harmful for the object of racism. For example, if someone is attempting to counteract already existing racism by supporting a racial minority, ostensibly they're acting because of race, and would be racist according to your definition of racism. The only problem is that this isn't what racism is in everyday parlance. So when you say out loud "helping victims of racism is racist too", next to nobody will think "hey, they're clearly employing some other definition of racism and that's fine", but rather "they're a douchebag for employing wordplay to belittle racism". I'm also inclined to think that even if your goal isn't to dismiss bad racism, these kinds if value neutral definitions of racism do contribute to it.


HarveyCMoreau

Let's say you like the color red. You go out into your city, in hopes of seeing the color red. However, you notice most places are blue. Overtly blue. Different shades of blue even. You search and search for red, but find nothing. You ask people about red, and they don't know, because blue is the default here. Blue stores, stop signs, busses. Blue blue blue. You want to see red, talk about red, and hang around those that also like red. Would you be appreciative of advertising showing that they have red, or like red, or are a space for people who enjoy red? Same thing for businesses and general culture dynamics in the US. I'd have to assume you are talked about lgbtq+ or black owned businesses. Typically those businesses market themselves as such. However, so do other cultures, but usually the name of the business gives an idea of a cultural origin (think maggianos). It's not odd for a person who has survived cancer to want to support cancer research, attend walks and events specifically geared towards awareness for cancer, and to be around and speak with people who have also dealt with cancer? Why would business be different?


bobafettys

A few reasons Many people of color live just above the poverty line. This is mainly because generational wealth has been denied to those communities. (E.g. Tulsa massacre. By the way this happened to just about every black family on a smaller scale) Many folks in the U.S. are racist still racist and this has a big a effect on people of color whether it be psychological or financial or sometimes physical harm. (E g. The black woman whose house appraised for ~100k more when she had a white man stand in for her) And then finally many people want to scrub out the racist history and awareness of ongoing racism, which makes it so that people of color seem like they're inferior rather than victims of acute racism. So I think the thing to realize is that the situation is very unfair from the start and it's human to help people who are less fortunate than you.


not14people

I see the call to support minority owned or women owned businesses a similar effort to calling for support of local businesses. The idea is to get money into what is deamed a more “worthy” or “virtuous” business. This idea is to use your power as a consumer mindfully. However what makes local businesses better? Most of them aren’t able to give their workers as much money or benefits at larger corporations like Walmart. Small businesses often screw over employees under the guise of being a “family”. I see the support minority/women/local business as a marketing tool used by those companies to get people buying more. IMO it supports a competitive system that will only encourage business owners to pigeonhole themselves to give themselves an edge and promote identifying in certain categories as long as it helps them out financially.


LeopoldTheLlama

> Whilst I don't deny that the cycle of poverty is real, it seems racially (or generally, idk) insensitive to say we can balance stuff out simply by doing x. Such behaviour comes with good intentions but it attempts to quantify the magnitude of other people's suffering, which is problematic. While I don't deny that people suffer when their family members are murdered, it seems insensitive to suggest we can balance stuff out simply by sending the murderer to jail and providing financial support to the family. Such behaviour comes with good intentions but it attempts to quantify the magnitude of other people's suffering, which is problematic. Point being, just because we can't fully right a wrong, and we can't accurately quantify the emotional and financial impacts of something doesn't mean that doing nothing is better than doing something.


toodlesandpoodles

Black people in the U.S. have less wealth and lower income per capita than every other group except Native Americans. Black people own a small share of businesses compared to their % of the population. Black communities typically have lower levels of economic activity and city investment as a result. If, in recognition of these inequalities, I make it a point to spend my dollar where it is more likely to have a beneficial impact on black people and a black community, I hardly think that can be considered racist. Patronizing black owned businesses to specifically counter the ongoing economic effects that are in large part due to structural and individual racism is not in itself racist. It's simply recognizing that racial differences in wealth exist, believing that they shouldn't, and trying to do a bit to narrow the gap.


BcTheCenterLeft

I think you have acknowledged that “implicit bias” is real. If you take that as fact and also accept that the people that hold a majority of the wealth, power, influence and voice in the US are white, then it would follow that the choice to “shop at minority owned businesses” is an effort to fight that implicit bias. Moreover, accepting the arguments above applied to the whole of society, admits that systemic racism is real. The policy you have issues with is trying to undo that imbalance. Not arguing about whether it’s racist or not, bc as you’ve said “it is literally impossible to escape implicit bias”, but it is good policy. Trying to right an inequality while you are still in a system that enforces that inequality requires treatment that may seem unequal, but is really just trying to balance systemic pressure.


Ongazord

This is otherwise the same argument as saying “All Lives Matter” when presented w the phrase Black Lives Matter. Your argument seems more like you want to label something racist than actually pointing actual racism. The examples you give also make it look like you’ve never had this conversation with another race.


thearchitectprincess

Not entirely the same! The statement black lives matter or the statement all lives matter, both of those are proclamations made in what people think is good faith as an expression of solidarity. I won't get into what's right and what's wrong but I will say that it's just a declaration of what you believe and who you support. For me the discussion we are having here is different because it touches upon a call to action - it's asking people to do something specific. Actions are separate from beliefs.


Ongazord

The distinction you use is a useful one to distance yourself from the point of what I’m saying. All lives matter is inherently a bad faith argument because no one ever said that by picking one group up all others get kicked down a notch. All lives matter is a reactionary response to continue the status quo and while things are marginally better, most of our grandparents lived through segregation. But whether it’s action or beliefs, you’re still arguing that you believe XYZ is racist. This is most definitely about beliefs.


CosmosOfTime

Depends. Keep in mind the black dollar only has a lifespan of 6 hours in the black community. That could attribute to the poverty that the black community is facing. It’s not bad to want to support black businesses to keep the black dollar into circulation for longer than 6 hours. Also, I’m not going to go to a Japanese restaurant owned by white people, and Mexicans probably won’t go to a Mexican restaurant owned by Asian people because it usually doesn’t end up well. The food tends to be better. It depends why they do it at the end of the day. To keep their race’s currency within the race for a bit longer or to have better authentic cultural food are good reasons to do so. But if you don’t go to a certain race’s business simply because of their race, then yes, it’s racist.


yumyfishnips

Your understanding of racism is based on a reductive dictionary definition. When you study critical race studies, you understand that racism is about the power of subjegation. Race was created as a means of subjegation through anthropology and the transatlantic slave trade. If this sounds unfamiliar to you, do yourself a favor and read anything by Sadiya Hartmann, Calvin Warren, Christina Sharpe, Joye James, Toni Morrison, etc the list goes on and on. You cannot even begin to contribute to the conversation of reparations, equity, and racial justice without an understanding of how subjegated people are describing their own subjegation. The only thing that will change your mind is a broader perspective. Either you acquire that, or you don't. Its your life.


Xaxthos

The definition of racism is “prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized.” You don’t get to make up your own definition of racism to fit your narrative. “Support black business” isn’t exclusionary just the same as “black lives matter” isn’t. They aren’t saying “only these things matter” they’re saying “these things matter too”. No one is holding you at gunpoint and forcing you to buy exclusively from businesses based on their owners ethnicity. I think you’re taking the statement too literally, as if it were a command, “support poc business if you can” just doesn’t roll off the tongue.


aceh40

With the risk of oversimplifying you post (because there is a lot of going on there) you are saying it is racist to pay reparations to descendants of slaves because they were representatives of only one race. I say your logic is backwards. It was racist to have slaves of one race. I would be happy to discuss reparations of any white slaves that were kidnapped from Sweden or Austria, chained in the hulls of the slave ships and sold as property in New Orleans and Charleston. The problem is that we do not know of any. It is not the reparations that are racist. It is the original act of enslavement that was racist. The reparations would simply reflect that racism of the original act.


lasagnaman

> There is a generous amount of research which suggests that it is literally impossible to escape implicit racial bias. Right, that's why we take explicit actions to hopefully counteract the weight of our internal, implicit biases, so that *on aggregate* our output is racism-neutral. > it seems racially (or generally, idk) insensitive to say we can balance stuff out simply by doing x. We can't, we never can, but it's *better than doing nothing* (which is typically the alternative). > Such behaviour comes with good intentions but it attempts to quantify the magnitude of other people's suffering, which is problematic. Yes, it is problematic, but *so is doing nothing*.


Lindz1008

This is more of a response to the part of the edit where you say providing reparations and the suggestion to shop local business attempts to “quantify the magnitude of people’s suffering”. I feel you’re point is that reparations and shopping local businesses are too simple a solution. I’d say that’s the point. Often, discussions by politicians and in news media about wealth, race, economic equality, etc. are intentionally obscured. Of course these issues are layered and complex, but suggestions like “shop minority business” give ACTIONABLE for people to encourage positive change. Otherwise, the conversation just becomes a circle jerk of virtual signaling.


Vsuzu

I think saying “support black businesses” means that we should give back to an entire race of people who’ve been racially discriminated/ oppressed for hundreds of years. It’s not racist, for something considered racist would go against a specific race in particular. You’re basically giving back to communities that have had almost everything taken away from them and have been treated as less-than because of their skin color. Many black communities aren’t doing well because of this, which was 2-3 generations ago at most. Red herring at its finest. If you are ignorant, just admit to it. Don’t counter harmless advertisements with strawman arguments.


smoochface

I've always heard these phrases, as... "Hey, don't forget about ___". It's kind of like when people say Black Lives Matter. It's not Only Black Lives Matter... or Black Lives Matter More, it's All Lives Matter & that INCLUDES Black Lives which, currently, are being left behind. It's why the ALL LIVES MATTER response is so frustrating. The black community is saying All Lives Matter, and that they are included in that "ALL". It's not about putting a preference on the minority owned business... its about pulling it up so it's got the same visibility, same opportunity, and chance to succeed as the rest.


thearchitectprincess

So I don't challenge the idea that this particular movement is one that seeks greater visibility for minority businesses. Your main claim is that this is how we make things fair for minority businesses. I have a follow up question for you. I want to know if you think a world where people didn't pay particular attention to business owneres, large or small, whatever race they are etc., and made purchasing decisions only based upon quality of service, product cost, etc. is considered racist. Thanks for being part of the discussion.


KreekWhydenson

As a small business owner I was called one day to give a quote and at the end of the conversation they asked if we was black owned, I was put off and not quite sure why I was being asked this. I told them we are family owned and operated and they got very “direct” and said that’s not what they asked, and asked again very sternly that if we wasn’t black owned then they don’t want to book with us. I told them no we aren’t black owned and asked if there was any issues with my salesmanship and they hung up on me. Out of all the stress we small business owners have this one made me cry.


Zarzurnabas

Isnt this callee affirmative action or something? But yes. It is "good" racism trying to combat the really bad racism. John oliver did a bit recently about the ways affirmative action is still just racism and will negatively impect minorities. This case is a bit differen tho id say. Many people actively avoid shopping im poc-owned shops, so its just a given that a form of counter movement is to just say "this shop is poc-owned so pls shop there" its not like they can actually command you, its more of a "pls dont be a super racist dick that also just doesnt shop there because its owned by poc"


Wooden-Wrongdoer8696

I agree with you that "positiv" racism, like support them because they are black or asian or whatever shoulen't be a thing. BUT its okey when they are in a period of time getting hard times because other are negativ racis. Like when everything with corona start and dumb people avoid asians just because they are asian .... not even chinese (but that also don't matter) and asian shop owners for exemple lost a significant amount of customers because of that... My motto is ... be a Panda... Pandas are black white and asian and live a happy live Racism shouldn't be a thing.


DesMoinesDudeDad

[Last year AAPI owned businesses suffered greatly](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/asian-american-owned-businesses-suffer-outsized-toll-pandemic-rcna678) due to many factors, [but one was xenophobia due to COVID-19.](https://www.weareiowa.com/mobile/article/news/nation-world/stop-aapi-hate-data-on-hate-incidents-against-asian-americans-and-pacific-islanders/507-85373361-3ae0-4f8f-90c2-3e171e2a0f1d) Because of this, I tried my best to support my local AAPI owned businesses to counteract the potential decline in sales due to the [stigmatization of the AAPI community in my area.](https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/2020/04/28/coronavirus-in-iowa-asian-racism-discrimination-xenophobia-harassment-pandemic-covid-19/2950959001/)


Last_Excitement_8136

Agree


pajo17

A lot of people don't realize that if you bring race into your decision making (both positive or negative) instantly makes it a racist issue. 'All Asians are smart', while having a positive connotation, is still racist. Doesn't matter it the outcome isn't a bad thing. It's like the word 'consequence'. I would bet the majority of people that hear that word believes it's a negative thing that happens because you made a poor choice. It means it's something that happens because you took an action, not negative not positive, just something that happens.


ru_sunshine

There's a thread in the post which tries to address the idea of counter-balancing and denounces it citing it to be impossible to achieve, but the conclusion that hence it should neither be professed nor practiced is misdirected. The inherent acceptance that measurement of the same is difficult implies that a lot of damage has been done and there needs to be some form of reparation. So, supporting businesses of particular ethnic/social/linguistic/colored group is quite the opposite of racism since it is in no way damaging the already oppressed community, rather helping uplift them.


StartUpInvesting

I don't see this as different than supporting any other genre of things that people identify with. If I support black bands, it's because I like what they do, and identify with them, so i support them. Same with movies like crazy rich asians. It blew up because it was the first all asian movie in a world of all white people. If people want to see more asian movies and asian actors, then you have to support the movie. If the movie bombed, thatd mean there is no market for it and no one would make them. Same with businesses.


desis_r_cute

Only if doing so is because of their race, and not because of the discrimination that their race faces resulting in racial inequality. That's really all there is to it. If you push down on one end of a seesaw just because you like that end of the seesaw, you're going to eventually create imbalance. The seesaw will end up as a slope. But if you are pushing down on one end of the seesaw to correct existing imbalance, that is a different action. It has a different intent. They are not equal acts. the seesaw will end up horizontal. >Active acknowledgment that the owner belongs to a certain race. This within itself is not necessarily racist (depending on how narrow the definition of "racism" is), but the distinction has been made. They are singling out certain businesses. Only if it is discriminatory. One time when bringing up race is certainly acceptable is when talking about inequality and discrimination caused by racism. You simply can't address that without talking about the boundaries upon which it exists. >There is a suggestion being made that these businesses aren't doing as well because they are owned by people of a certain race. Am I wrong if I think this suggestion within itself is a form of racist stereotyping, unless it's coupled with cited evidence of some form of economical analysis/statistical measure? Businesses need money to survive, if a minority generally has access to less money and resources they are going to have less businesses. It's got nothing to do with physical ability. >The preference to support certain businesses over other businesses simply because of the owner's race is inherently a choice made based on race, and is therefore racist. (For instance, if you choose to support a minority business instead of a white-owned business because of the minority factor, that can be construed as racist. And vice versa would be true as well.) Is it a choice made on race if it is actually being made because that race faces discrimination and economic inequality? Surely it is a choice made on inequality. Not race. >is it not racist to continually single the descendants of certain races out, and tell them that they aren't doing as well because of their ancestors' past? Even if statistically this is true for a significant proportion of that population, applying the statement as a universal truth to all minority businesses seems like racial stereotyping to me. It is pointing out intergenerational inequality, an outcome of racism. Not an outcome of race. >when, if ever, can we say we've done enough to right the wrong? Who are we to decide? Is it racist to think we can? When the statistics line up with the proportions of the population. It's not really all that complicated.


Re-lar-Kvothe

Asking and demanding are inherently different. Asking someone to support an ideal is one thing. Demanding is quite another, especially when the demand is backed by some form of punishment if one chooses not to comply. One is an act of advocating, the other is tyranny. Do you feel the same about businesses owned by women vs men? Or Gay vs straight? Veteran vs civilian? Democrat vs republican? Christian vs Muslim? Religious vs atheist? Advocating for something you believe in is fine. Forcing an ideal is not.


Plane_Refrigerator15

I would posit that the definition of racism is more along the lines of “The idea that certain races are inherently superior to other races based on race alone.” Material and economic differences exist along racial lines, and I don’t think acknowledging that is in and of itself racist. The messaging gets some people but I think the message is really “support businesses where there may a communication boundary” because communication is difficult and expensive and that holds small businesses back.


irondragon2

I have wondered the same thing actually. For example, the "support black businesses" seems to have arrived after BLM movement. Maybe it is a coincidence, but I'm not sure. I do agree with OP though. Just because a certain minority is being oppressed shouldn't mean that a business owned by said minority should be singled out to receive more customers. In a way I see that as bad marketing. Then again, what I said above my be a coincidence. Feel free to chime in. I look for other perspectives.


jordyjordy1111

I believe that there is a thing such as positive racism…essentially people of a certain race or ethnicity will benefit not because of their skill-set or because they run a genuinely good business but because of their skin colour and race. While on the surface it seems like a good thing usually it seem to land the individual or business in a worse position. I feel that they never get the honest feedback to help them improve and are often given false hope by people who once supported them.


Waferssi

I'm late and it's probably been said before but the way I see it, "support black businesses" (just to name a specific example) is an idea with the goal to COUNTER the fact that anti-black racists are avoiding these businesses. If two businesses are equal, but 20% of people and 30% of businesses refuse to support the one that is black-owned, "support black businesses" is the initiative for the remaining people to make up the difference, because anti-racists believe equal businesses deserve equal success.


[deleted]

[удалено]


hacksoncode

Sorry, u/YKSVOTRUGOY – your comment has been removed for breaking Rule 1: > **Direct responses to a CMV post must challenge at least one aspect of OP’s stated view (however minor), or ask a clarifying question**. Arguments in favor of the view OP is willing to change must be restricted to replies to other comments. [See the wiki page for more information](http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1). If you would like to appeal, [**you must first check if your comment falls into the "Top level comments that are against rule 1" list**](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/rules#wiki_rule_1), review our appeals process [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards#wiki_appeal_process), then [message the moderators by clicking this link](http://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Fchangemyview&subject=Rule%201%20Appeal%20YKSVOTRUGOY&message=YKSVOTRUGOY%20would%20like%20to%20appeal%20the%20removal%20of%20\[his/her%20post\]\(https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/o0rdib/-/h1ypkow/\)%20because\.\.\.) within one week of this notice being posted. Please note that multiple violations will lead to a ban, as explained in our [moderation standards](https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/wiki/modstandards).


breich

If I understand your OP correct you don’t think businesses should be supported because they are black-owned, and you don’t believe in paying of reparations, but you DO believe in poverty cycles initiated by historical racism. So if not either of those solutions, how do you propose we deal with it? Or shouldn’t we? The problem with The pull yourself up by your bootstraps attitude is that it’s A lot more difficult when society didn’t let you have bootstraps in the first place.


faironebro

The meaning and application of the word ‘racist’ has gone on one hell of a trip. I literally don’t know what it means anymore, but apparently I’m racist just for being alive so I’m not really sure where to go from there. Like I have with being gay, should I just accept it if there’s nothing I can do about it? It’s a very strange position that some people hold but it throws up loads of questions like this for me and I wish I could ask about it without getting torn apart


eladivine

An ideal world would have no racism, and all you say is true. BUT racism exists. To ignore it won't help make a difference. To be proactive and try to help people who suffer from racism isnt racist imo. E: to clarify - in order to fight racism people have to acknowledge it as an issue. Imagine we ignored fires as an issue and didnt have a system and authoroty to put out fires, because for whatever reason saying there are fires is considered to be an araonist.


RepresentativeLaw251

Well call it racist but I am not about to trust Becca at Fantastic Sams with my hair. Not saying that all white women cant do a good sew in but as a customer faced with limited time and information, girls like me have to discriminate and rely on heuristics. A black owned salon is more likely to be familiar with black and mixed race hair types but also with weaves period...and when youre paying over 500 bucks at the salon you REALLY wanna be safe than sorry


SockAlarmed6707

It’s okay to support black shop owners but saying that it is the same as saying shop locally is absurd, if you choose to shop at a store solely based of the color of the owners skin than yes it is racist 100% no matter what you argue about to give yourself a free pass, no wonder racism is such a big thing still in America when people can’t even see that choosing where to shop based on someone skin color is racist. Fcking hell you people are behind


Theo0033

It isn't just the effects of slavery/generational poverty. It's also the fact that, even when we control for everything else, black people are still being discriminated against. Even other black people implicitly see black people as inferior. ​ So black people have less opportunity to succeed, because we, society, are out to get them. ​ And we should compensate for that. ​ Again, racism is NOT just in the past.


Ninjasbeflippin

If you really want to know, watch "Trigger Warning" with Killer Mike on Netflix. The first episode is about supporting businesses owned by black people and why it's so important. If not, then obviously there's nothing that will change your mind. Honestly I'm a bit baffled by this post at all. If you live in today's world and haven't had your head shoved into the dirt for the whole time you should know already. It's not a fucking secret.


rumor33

Bc the people of color who own those bussiness have worked twice as hard to get where they are in most cases and will need to work twice as hard to keep it. If i got two choices of where to get a cupcake and all other things being equal Im gonna get it from the person whose going to have the harder time deferring a loan payment. Now, if they just have bad cupcakes thats a diffrent story, but thats not what people are talking about.


Numerous-Secret3725

Well supporting your community is better than feeding the megacorporations. If you go by race, rather than location or price - I think it is all the same. If you go to a Chinese restaurant and there are Mexican chefs, do you think the food is better, worse or doesn't matter? That's a personal question to answer for yourself... there's no inherent racism there. Racism needs malice otherwise its ignorance or a generalization.