The New 2022 Subaru BRZ Is Way Better Than the Original - Doug DeMuro
By - davidleo24
The People: We want a faster BRZ!
Suburu: You got it! How about +20% torque?
The People: Awesome! We want a faster WRX!
Suburu: Go fuck yourself.
Tiny thing I noticed: you don’t have to use the buttons on the top of the seats to fold them down, you can pull the straps hanging down in the trunk to lower the backseat. Same as the old car.
Yeah the straps are waaaay easier to use
Yep, pinned as the top comment. My mistake! If this was going to be the thing that stopped you from buying the car, rest easy :)
How’s the NVH compared to other small cars?
You ever gonna do an Elise or Exige? I'm torn, I was set on an Exige but I absolutely love the Evora in person but I'd love to hear your take on the El/Ex.
Yes! I don't know why I haven't yet. I actually owned an 06 Elise years ago, and I already know all the quirks and features!
I was curious watching the video too, is there a way to cancel the turn signals that Doug wasn't aware of? I assume that's the same on the first gen cars?
You cancel the signals by moving them a *half push* to the opposite direction. Not a full push, because then it turns on the opposite side signal. It's horrid design.
They should've at least copied BMW turn signals completely. Those can be cancelled with a full push to the opposite side, much easier than carefully only pushing it halfway to cancel.
Wait BMWs have turn signals?
It's an option that requires a subscription
Signals as a Service
The stalk mechanism in the new one *looks* slightly different, the one in my BRZ has a locked down and up position and does not return to the middle until you move it
Interesting change lol, thanks for the feedback
Today Doug called an aux port old school, and I realized I’m not so young anymore. I remember it wasn’t that long ago I wanted an aux port in my next car to avoid dealing with tape deck adapters or those silly FM transmitters. Feeling nostalgic for a book of CDs on the passenger seat to hold all my burned mixes.
My car still has an Aux port, but my phone sure doesn’t.
No but you can buy usb to aux converter cable thingy.
Yeah it’s like $5 (not from apple), lightning to 3,5mm converter
It was included with my iphone 7, didn’t know they stopped including them. Kind of a dick move!
The $9 apple aux dongle measures very well in objective audio tests. It’s up there with much bulkier $50-100 DACs. It’s better than most DACs normal people are used to. https://audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/review-apple-vs-google-usb-c-headphone-adapters.5541/
And then you can't charge.
I mean buying a Male Aux to Male USB-C/lighting or Male USB-c/lighting to female AUX (for use with a preexisting Male to male aux) isn't that expensive. The former is what I use in My Car and it's served me quite well.
I'm kinda pissed the iPhone 12 doesn't have Touch ID or a headphone jack. It was bought for me, so I can't complain too much, but in some ways this technological progression feels like a regression.
There are lots of kids in schools who have never seen a dedicated MP3 player.
I miss Zune.
Me too. It sounded so good.
Having a phone that can do everything, including streaming just about any song I want instantaneously is objectively better in every way, but I still get nostalgic for my ancient iPod, or better yet, the Minidisc player I had before that.
I was so mad when my old iPod with the big circle control broke. Especially since there were songs on it that my current itunes didn't have. Ah well, these days Spotify has pretty much everything I need.
I still use a cassette tape adapter to listen to music in my old Audi. Plugs into an adapter that plugs into the port in my phone. Love the simplicity (even though I have to use my phone to change tracks).
Every cassette adapter I ever used sounded like a radio station that wasn't quite in range. It'd drive me nuts to have to still use one.
Interesting. That is unusual, probably misalignment between the two heads. I always had issues with FM transmitters but cassette adapters were rock solid
Those FM transmitters had to be the biggest ripoff in the world. I’ve never had a single one work.
That’s so funny to hear as I tried a cassette adapter in my car, couldn’t get the static out for the life of me. Fm transmitter on the other hand works fine every time I start up the car.
I’ve had FM transmitters in a few vehicles and used to carry one with me when I was a truck driver. Their Bluetooth connection has been more reliable and less finicky than the Bluetooth connections built into vehicles / aftermarket head units in my experience.
I've been using one for years, a cheap one at that. It's luck, I guess.
Mine works great!!
That's not typical - may have been a problem with your deck. I used them for years to great effect. Had an MP3 CD player with great buffering (making it good for cars / bouncing) hooked up via one of those. It was awesome!
Discman velcro'ed to the console, tape adaptor. Boom
There are Bluetooth audio controllers (skip/rewind/pause) that still allow the audio through the 3.5mm that can clip onto your steering wheel
> I remember it wasn’t that long ago I wanted an aux port in my next car to avoid dealing with tape deck adapters or those silly FM transmitters.
I remember feeling like this 8 years ago, not all that long ago.
My car was built in the awkward couple of years before aux ports but after tape decks. It just has the radio and a 6 cd changer.
I still like having them but yep- they’re officially yesterdays tech.
by the time they were put in cars bluetooth was already taking over anyway.
Yeah- BT is better in a lot of ways to be sure, but even now I exclusively use wired CarPlay on my R, so there’s still a bit of the old legacy alive in there.
Wired carplay/AA is honestly a nice spiritual successor to the aux jack.
Charges my phone, and plays music via my dash. What's not to love? I have a little cubby I actually tuck the phone into out of the way, so I don't even need to think about it
Exactly the same on my Golf R, hot hatch brother 🤝
Haha, hell yeah! 🤝
In my personal memory you couldn't get BT on pedestrian cars until -relatively- recently, while aux was ubiquitous. Even then BT only recently became relatively bulletproof. Connectivity issues were a huge problem for a very long time.
Like a rickshaw?
I don't know how long you're talking about, but bluetooth has been solid for me since 2008 or so.
IIRC there was a period of time where BT could only be used for phone calls, not streaming music. This was when the AUX ports were the most useful.
Yep - my dad's 2011 Impala has Bluetooth for phone calls, or an aux port for music and phone calls. Easy choice to just use the wire.
My car has no aux port so I have to use a tape deck adapter. Honestly its about the same to me.
My 2011 top spec, "JBL premium audio" Rav4 only has 3.5mm Aux, no BT Audio or USB input.
Just picked up an 09 base trim Honda Fit for the in laws and it has USB input from the factory. On a car that retailed for less than half of the Rav.
I am disappoint.
I still use the tape deck adapter and is the best example of magic in consumer electronics. Like how?
Man, the infotainment in this thing looks 10 times better than the 2ds like one in the WRX.
I will never understand why Subaru chose to use that layout when they have a perfectly working one in the BRZ!
my guess is because it was more important to them for the higher trim WRX to have that big 11" screen, and since the lower trim outbacks/legacies already have a perfectly good Nintendo DS for their base trim, why not just reuse it here?
The question really should be why the Nintendo DS layout was even thought of in the first place, regardless of which car it goes in. It looks like absolute trash and a normal double din with rotary switches for HVAC would've looked way more premium.
It's funny you mention that. I haven't seen the WRX one, but I thought the BRZ one in this video looked hella outdated too.
I guess I'm spoiled after seeing ones from Ford, Hyundai, Mazda, etc.
Subaru seems years behind.
They are. That awd tho
Damn the WTX base infotainment is an abomination to tech and design....worst looking thing I've seen in like 10+ years
The new wrx infotainment looks like those shitty ones you can buy off Amazon
Because they thought having a fucking massive laggy piece of shit screen was a good idea. And they didn't want to make a whole other assembly for the base model, so they choose the absolute cheapest and crappiest way. Even putting the BRZ unit in would leave a massive gaping hole. It's really down to them wanting to put in that tablet.
I think they just wanted to have em all on the same infotainment for ease of production. I just sat in an Ascent the other day at the dealer for kicks - same infotainment as the one advertised for the WRX. Looks like all their top trims are going to use that, and I guess they didn't want to maintain a special production line for the WRX. I would prefer they grouped WRX with the 86 personally instead of the Ascent, but I hold no power here
I'd have preferred if they gave it a single small screen up top, and left a blank double din for the lower part, with traditional AC controls. That way you could put in your own gauges/ etc in that blank spot. Instead you're just stuck with ugly.
Not like the "Dougscore" even really matters, but just wanted to point out that he scored the BRZ a 4 on acceleration when it's faster than both the Miata and the S2000, which both scored a 5.
edit: sorry my eyes are crooked. S2k scored a 5, and Miata is at a 4.
Those get the Miata and S2000 bonus point tho
i.e. the internet circlejerk bonus point
Meanwhile, 86s, 350s, and RX-8s get -1 internet point for the following reasons:
86s: played out and clapped out
350z: official car of hotbois
RX-8s: hurr durr did u blow an apex seal haha Im so funny
New Supra gets -5 internet circlejerk points
And Any Tesla either gets +10 or -10 Internet circlejerk points depending on community.
Hmm -- yeah, weird, I guess I have the S2000's 0-to-60 time wrong. Changing it now!
I think you read the incorrect line for the Miata, though -- it got a 4 for acceleration, as it should've. Shown at the end of this video as a 4.
Whoops!! Sorry my eyes must be lopsided, thanks for the correction.
The scores change over time, as cars get faster, slower cars score lower.
This isn't true though. He's given plenty of cars that were insanely fast for their time the same score as cars that arent ground breaking today.
2007 Ferrari F430 was insane at 3.8 seconds 0-60 and got an 8/10
2018 BMW M3 CS is above average for the segment in today's market at 3.8 0-60 and also got an 8/10
> insanely fast for their time
Uh yea, that's what I'm saying. He rates based on current standards, not if they were fast during their time.
>Acceleration will be scored objectively, using published 0-to-60 times, in the following way:
>Under 3 seconds: 10 points
>3.0 to 3.5 seconds: 9 points
>3.6 to 4 seconds: 8 points
>4.1 to 4.5 seconds: 7 points
>4.6 to 5 seconds: 6 points
>5.1 to 5.5 seconds: 5 points
>5.6 to 6 seconds: 4 points
>6.1 to 6.5 seconds: 3 points
>6.6 to 7 seconds: 2 points
>7.1 seconds and up: 1 point
I dont have a dog in this fight, but thats what the *other* guy is saying.
If its scored on an objective scale regardless of dates, then why did the BRZ get a 4 when the slower s2000 got a 5
It would make more sense if the scale changed over time, but I have no clue if thats how he does it or not. Seems like changing the scale in a way that doesnt skew results would be impossible
the styling is nice, i would actually consider getting it in white or light silver like this car.
Give me a bright color.
Metalic brown it is.
the very popular flat, lifeless, ceramic primer gray. like the road.
invisible, until the brodozer squishes you.
*looking at you Nardo Gray*
I'd really like one that's like Ford's lightning blue.
subaru has a dark blue and that classic WRC blue available on their configurator.
I'm not the biggest fan of either of the front bumper treatments, and the rear fenders slope down a bit too much imo, but man this gen of toyobaru is so much more sculpted and interesting to look at than the last one.
Really excited to see what the Japanese tuner scene comes up with in terms of body kits :)
It definitely has some "subdued baby supra" vibes to me
Yeah, which is pretty good. Interestingly these are similar sized cars, but the supra is so much more dramatic. The rear haunches are just next level on that car
Supra is pretty much at the Cayman level of haunches though not a bad thing at all if you ask me.
It is such a looker stock. Has somewhat jank proportions and details, but the overall presence is excellent. I'm looking forward to the Z (even if it's more restrained), but I'm really excited about a potential prod version of the Rx-vision.
Leaks from japan position it as a pretty high spec sports car (like supra+ / Porsche level) with structural carbon fiber bits, if they make it 60-70k with the concept styling and a good phev powertrain I would be extremely extremely interested. Basically like a new FD for our time.
Yeah, I like the Supra a lot and it drives fantastically but I feel like it's slightly off. A mid-cycle facelift could make it amazing!
The Rx at that price point would be spectacular! The LC500 is another great one at the moment.
Agreed on all counts. I'm not that into GT-style cars (don't really care for the refinement they offer), but damn the lc looks good. One of the best looking coupes in the market atm.
Yeah, absolutely gorgeous! My only complaint with the GT part is it puts it out of my price range.
Mazda has a better track record of making sports cars handle well than any other Japanese company IMHO.
Jason Cammisa has answered the "baffling" decision to not make a more powerful version. It wouldn't be profitable, the moment it is more powerful it will be held with higher regard and no one will buy a lightweight sportscar with a cheap ass interior.
I don't really think the decision was baffling when the car sold pretty well, which is why they're making a new one with a little, but not overwhelmingly more power.
The existing cars were great, they just needed some tweaks. That’s all. It looks like this car does that.
I don't understand your argument at all. People buy Mustangs and Camaros and those are sports cars with cheap interiors with lots of power, they sell fine. The existence of the gt doesn't mean people don't buy the Ecoboost, infact the GT500 sells the Ecoboost, that's how halo cars work.
If the idea is that people wouldn't buy a more expensive model of the cheap light car then why is the Miata RF so successful? I don't see why if there is a market for a sub 30k sports car, there can't be one for a 35k version of it. If someone comes in and wants a GT86 "S" and they find they can't afford it, they'll get a base model.
If you are saying that it wouldn't recoup development costs then I can at least understand what you're saying.
Mustang and Camaro do more than fine. And that’s why they can be so cheap. They sell on pure volume. Rental fleets are full of them, highschool kids get them. There’s basically a level of each car for every age and budget
> Jason Cammisa has answered the "baffling" decision to not make a more powerful version. It wouldn't be profitable, the moment it is more powerful it will be held with higher regard and no one will buy a lightweight sportscar with a cheap ass interior.
I just don't get this criticism. In a world where Miata RF models *start* at $35,000 and plenty of people buy them with 181hp, we can't get a turbo on a BRZ at the same price point (for 260hp)? The manufacturer may have told this to Jason, but I just have trouble really believing it would be true if put into practice.
I also don't get THIS criticism, I gotta say. If a 181-hp, $35k Miata makes sense, why doesn't a $30k BRZ that's quicker in a straight line as well as being bigger and more usable?
Or are we just in love with horsepower numbers?
I don't think Doug is saying the BRZ doesn't make sense, simply that the market would still support a more expensive one with a turbo. If a 181hp Miata can sell at $35k, seems like a ~260hp BRZ would sell at $40k.
I think everyone should meet in the middle and ask for the request in your video that gets overlooked: it should be a 8500rpm motor.
Gotta side with Jason on this one. I appreciate the focus on balance for the brz/86. We've got plenty of other manufacturers out there that will just throw more HP at the problem (hi Dodge!...and I'm not mad at that) but a fun, balanced (economical) car that has a (mostly unusable) back seat makes a really compelling argument.
I do wonder if there is some sort of gentlemans agreement between Toyota and Subaru to keep HP numbers under a certain level to not encroach on Supra, WRX/STI sales, but even if that was the case, who cares. We get a perfect simple sports car out of it.
The BRZ does make sense! And a more powerful one would make sense, too, for five grand more :)
I’m with you Doug. I think Jason has a great explanation but I literally said to myself when hearing the specs of this car. 260 horsepower isn’t worth it for me. It’s cheap, probably reliable and has practicality over the Miata but my girlfriend’s Accord Sport 2.0t 10 spd would shred it on public roads. And I might be a fool and pride might be messing with me, but I just can’t do it. I would rather have a ND2 Miata and a practical second car than a BRZ alone. Really I’d probably have a used corvette but either way.
I almost bought a Miata but couldn’t justify the price and impracticality of a new one when I was single. But now that I can get a fun daily and a fun sports car the BRZ just isn’t enough.
I think Jason said it himself in his response to you. The Miata is a toy. And from what I can see The BRZ isn’t as much. The Miata feels more like a toy than the BRZ and acts like it. I don’t know man, the BRZ has its tuners and aftermarket people, but had the BRZ had the turbo stock, it would be the one. And I’m looking for that toy in a sea of compromised vehicles.
You’re right though. A turbo isn’t gonna change *that much* but it will change it enough.
The new Nissan Z might just be answering the door the BRZ just isn’t coming to get. We’ll see though.
u/Doug-DeMuro It's not about what Subaru says to me, it's what Subaru *did*. The original brief for the collab BRZ/86 project was for a lightweight sports car in the traditional sense.
Engineering in turbocharged engine from the get-go would certainly have been possible — and while it would have certainly added cost, it wouldn't have been an order of magnitude.
However (and this is a huge, very important however) adding a turbo now would necessitate a complete reengineering of the car from the ground up. THAT is where the additional cost would come in.
Don't forget that the 2022 BRZ isn't a "new car" — it's an extensive facelift of the old one. So the base structure is the same. And with a moderate increase in torque, some reinforcement is sufficient.
If this were indeed a new car, I can't imagine that Subaru wouldn't have, in reaction to the criticism from the last one, at least considered changing the car's basic recipe. But this isn't a new car.
Looking at Miata buyers, by the way, isn't really illustrative. The Miata buyer is almost 40 years older than the average BRZ buyer: the Miata is a 2nd or 3rd car — it's a toy. That's not the case with BRZ buyers, who need it to be singular car. And even a $10k jump would seriously erode a BRZ buyer's ability to purchase.
They may seem like "competitors," but not once you look at the demographics of their buyers.
> Don't forget that the 2022 BRZ isn't a "new car" — it's an extensive facelift of the old one. So the base structure is the same. And with a moderate increase in torque, some reinforcement is sufficient.
But they replaced the engine entirely and added 30 horsepower and 30 pound feet. They could do that, but not add a turbocharged version of the same engine, which they already make? Surely it's more difficult to completely change engines AND boost power by 30 horses than to just turbocharge the existing engine.
Are you saying there are massive reinforcement, re-engineering, and re-tooling costs that come in the next 30 horsepower that *didn't* come from the full engine replacement and 30-horsepower boost that already happened? And these costs are so massive they can't get them into the car and charge $35K for it? A 20 percent price increase for 30 horsepower seems pretty generous, regardless of what changes need to be made to the car to get it done.
**EDIT** Also as I think about it, here's another problem with this theory: the 2020 BRZ (old model) started at $29,745 with shipping. The new one, with a completely new engine and a 30-horsepower bump, starts at $28,955, which is actually less than the old model. So they replaced the engine, boosted the power by 30 horses, and managed to charge *less* -- but somehow just throwing on a turbocharger and bringing power up another 30 horses would add so much cost that they couldn't make a profit at a $5K higher MSRP?
I think the real truth is probably Subaru is afraid of a more powerful BRZ eating WRX sales and Toyota is now afraid of a more powerful 86 eating Supra sales, but neither brand really wants to say it, so they stop just short of what everyone wants. I'm satisfied with the new BRZ, though -- I really do think the power is close enough to being "enough" that it's very, very enjoyable.
> The Miata buyer is almost 40 years older than the average BRZ buyer
My understanding is [the average BRZ buyer is 36 years old](https://www.motortrend.com/features/6-cool-facts-2017-subaru-brz/#:~:text=With%20a%20median%20buyer%20age,youngest%20customer%20in%20the%20market.) -- and while I suspect Miata buyers are older, I bet they're not pushing 80 on average 😂
>Surely it's more difficult to completely change engines AND boost power by 30 horses than to just turbocharge the existing engine.
I dunno about that. According to [SavageGeese](https://youtu.be/4OAOh3OCSt8?t=726), the displacement was increased to 2.4L by increasing the bore, but the engine is still identical in size to the old FA20D, making little impact on its placement or COG.
Part of Jason's argument is that adding a turbo would not only require additional changes, but adding a turbo might compromise the experience due to [the engine's low placement compared to the WRX](https://youtu.be/ZsTc2rhipwk?t=467). So it would have to be redesigned to compensate for that. Whereas opting for displacement for replacement (haha) would require less significant reinforcements, structural changes and what not.
Also, remember how everyone is disappointed with the WRX reveal, about how the +3 horsepower memes turned out to be true? Despite having an engine that's also 20% bigger like the BRZ? I think Jason's statements are operating on the assumption that a 2nd-gen turbo'd BRZ would make more than just than 270 horsepower; more like 300+ and a similar number for torque. I think that would require far more structural upgrades than a 30-horsepower-30-pound-foot boost.
But I somewhat agree with this part:
>I think the real truth is probably Subaru is afraid of a more powerful BRZ eating WRX sales and Toyota is now afraid of a more powerful 86 eating Supra sales, but neither brand really wants to say it, so they stop just short of what everyone wants
But at the same time... I do think that an 86 GRMN or BRZ STi could work. The Supra is already at 380hp (who cares about the 2.0T lol) and if the rumours that the WRX STi would get 400hp are true, that could give the twins some room if they remain at the lower end of the 300 horsepower spectrum.
Given that the old BRZ tS started at 32k and can be optioned to 35k, such theoretical twins could be close in price to the Supra 2.0T and WRX STi. They might not completely cannibalise them, if only by offering an adjacent experience for a similar price.
Ahh yes, the Cayman/911 dilemma. I remember when no Caymans have more power output than the base 911.
Have you driven the new Toyobaru on the street, or just the track? We haven't heard much about how the ride quality and NVH is for a daily.
Both. 630 total miles on two different GR86s. The ride is stiff — as you'd expect — and coupled with the relatively short wheelbase, of course it's no S-Class. But it was comfortable on the highway and never bottomed out harshly on the nastiest, twistiest, bumpiest back roads Mt. Tamalpais could offer. I have no issue whatsoever with the ride. Ditto NVH; engine sounds WAY better than before. Cabin is hushed enough for daily driving for sure. Again, it ain't an S-Class, but that's what makes it great. Honestly if it had a hatchback, I'd already have bought one.
Woot! Seriously, sounds like the torque dip problem is basically all but gone with this car. With that deal breaker out of the way from the factory, the new 86s must be an absolutely excellent drive for a sports car
I'd totally be interested if I didn't have so much tied into my Dorito 4 door haha
I recall Toyota's earlier explanations/excuses that adding a turbo would upset the chassis balance. It reminds me of a Motor Trend review of a supercharged BRZ; admittedly, it was boosted to 500+ horsepower, but it ended up being difficult to enjoy as it overwhelmed the chassis. This probably doesn't add much to the conversation.
Are the BRZ's chassis improvements in torsional rigidity and whatnot enough to at least reduce the amount of additional reinforcement needed for a turbo? With Toyota's plans with their GRMN branding structure, I would love to see an 86 GRMN or BRZ STi this time, no matter how unlikely and even if the prices were pushed into Supra territory.
How much more power does it have to have before it is unprofitable? I would replace my personal car, my E90, with the new gen BRZ in an instant if it had a turbo 4 that made about 250-260 hp
So you’d buy the 4 cylinder supra?
4-cylinder supra is still auto-only. That makes it hard to recommend for the BRZ/86 buyer since the whole thing is kind of "driver involvement."
Geese dynoed it at 206 to the wheels, that's stock s2k power (237bhp). You'll get to 250 bhp after i/h/e with better response than a turboed 4.
Intake, headers, exhaust?
Really? 206 up to 250 from intake header and exhaust on an NA 2.4L 4-banger??
I would bet money on horsepower being closer to 210 than to 250 at the wheels after those mods.
Current car goes from ~160whp to ~190whp with headers and a good tune.
I wouldn't be surprised to see ~206whp to ~240whp if things scale similarly.
206whp is 240bhp
Are you saying bolt ons get you 228 rated > 250 rated? Or are you saying 206whp > 250whp?
Slow cars are fun, though.
u/doug-demuro as a tall person how comfortable are you in driver seat of the 86/brz? I'm about the same height as you but a lot of it is from my torso. How much head room did you have to spare and would you be comfortable on a 8 hour trip in it?
I'm 6'8 and daily drove the first gen BRZ for ~4 years including a cross-country road trip. It was way more comfortable than I expected it to be when I bought it. I'm mostly legs, but it's got lots of head room because it's designed for most drivers to fit with a helmet for the track.
Definitely not right up against the ceiling, no problem at all fitting in. Obviously try it out for yourself, but I didn't find it cramped in terms of head room or knee/leg/hip room.
And for those of you reading this who are 5' 9", keep this question in mind when you're going to make fun of me for mentioning my height in videos. Because tall people always have to ask!
I love you daddy doug
I want one
So Subaru actually does know how to make more power out of more displacement
Subaru got another 30 HP 30TQ out of the new BRZ/86 with a 2.4 NA motor but a whole ass 3 HP for the WRX iwith a Turbo 2.4, What a joke
Doug, if you had to choose between this and a Hyundai Veloster N, which would you prefer?
They have similar overall scores, but the brz is more weekend points and the veloster has more daily points. I was only really considering the veloster N until I started hearing about this cars redesign.
I know they probably drive and handle quite differently, but they seem like my top 2 choices right now.
It really just depends on what you're looking for -- the differences in the scores should answer your question. If I could get away with a pure sports car, I'd buy this -- but if you need usable back seats and more cargo space, the VN is the way to go.
I've owned 2 brzs and now a Veloster N. The brz will win for handling and sports car feel. The Veloster is much more customizable and has better straight line speed(a better daily). Adjustable dampers and exhaust are great. You can fit a child seat.
If you have a more practical car available for the occasional need, get the BRZ. If you want just a daily and are fine with fwd, Veloster N all the way.
Do you have twisty roads, or a track to take your car to to enjoy it?
Everyone seems to complain about the lack of a turbo on the Toyobaru twins, but then they lament how all cars have forced induction nowadays. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Here's a great video that crunches the numbers and argues in favor of the 2022 GR 86/BR-Z remaining normally aspirated:
> then they lament how all cars have forced induction nowadays.
I don't! My first car was turbocharged, I currently own two turbos and a supercharged, I have no problem at all with turbos. I'd love for this car to have a bit more power!
Based on what Jason Cammisa explained on turbo 4 cylinder cars, my understanding is the price of the BRZ/GR86 would rise substantially if they slapped on a turbo because they'd have to use more expensive parts and re-engineer some of the car too. I'm going to estimate that amounts to an increase of around $3,000-$5,000, please correct me if I'm way off. If I'm not, do you like the new BRZ Limited at $34,000-$36,000? That's new Mustang GT/Challenger R/T in a non-Covid market. I apologize if this comes across as combative, that's not my intention. I'm just curious to know because it gives me a better idea of what kind of cars you gravitate towards.
> If I'm not, do you like the new BRZ Limited at $34,000-$36,000? That's new Mustang GT/Challenger R/T in a non-Covid market.
That's what top-spec Miatas cost! Hell, a Miata RF *starts* at $34,000 with shipping, and that's not even the top trim (which starts at $35,500). And those have 180hp! So yes I think a performance trim of the BRZ would do reasonably well with 260hp at $35,000.
Frankly, a base BRZ is already more expensive than a base Mustang, so adding more power could theoretically help the BRZ from a value perspective.
Thanks for sharing!
I don't know anything about cars or common discourse. Whats the common complaints with turbos? I'm familiar with two turbo cars 2015 Audi a4 and a 2020 mx5 is there complaints about those turbos? I've heard great things about the audi turbo.
One is the exhaust note. Since the exhaust gasses power the turbos they muffle cool engine noises. Another thing, l think, is a general resistance to change. Forced induction has become a staple to increase fuel efficiency without sacrificing power and people miss the bygone era of naturally aspirated engines. That’s been my observation anyway.
Building on this, the powerband and revs of a turbo car might also disappoint you. A majority of them make a ton of torque and power, but redline pretty early (like 6-6500rpm). The ones that rev higher can have the powerband fall off before redline so you would want to shift earlier anyway.
Whereas some of the really fun NA engines rev to 8k+ and progressively build power up to that point, so you can really wind your engine out in each gear and enjoy the experience. It's like the difference between (semi-) instant gratification vs. delayed gratification, and to me in a car I definitely prefer the latter.
There are some turbo cars (e..g the older Japanese ones - 2JZ, RB26, REW) that both rev pretty high and do fun turbo things. That makes them some of my favorite engines. I tried a RB26 in a r34 skyline gtr once, and that engine was absolutely a (if not the) highlight of the car.
Based on it, I'm definitely considering turboing my renesis in the 8, but potential reliability issues in track use keep that thought at bay. Maybe a FD REW swap could be in the cars lol
I remember the "car guy" telling me electric cars were like soylent when I was excited about the tesla being the fastest car and the torque of electric vehicles. I never understood the engine noise thing until I rode a 2 stroke moped, that was a fun internal combustion sound.
Any current brz/86 owners here who can give me their input on a question i have.
I currently have a GTI and it's the perfect size for me and my two kids (8 & 6).
I'm wondering how small the back is and if my kids would be cramped up? Do you think it would be an issue?
I love the 2022 and I'd love making the switch.
The current 86 doesn't have back seats, just shelves with seatbelts. I'll leave it at that.
It's *possible* to cram 4 people into the car, but that's more of a "we're going to the store and no one else has a car" situation.
I think they'll fit decently well, or at least one of them will if the front passenger happens to be short. They're gonna hate you when they're older tho because they'll probably only fit for a year lol it's gonna be quite a downgrade in space for them if they're used to the roomy backseats of a GTI, also their current ages are quite a coincidence with the 86 haha Somehow being able to keep the GTI and buying the new GR86 would be the best
Watch Doug Demuro's video - the back seats are VERY small. If either of your kids are in child seats then I wouldn't recommend it. Ultimately this car is less practical than the GTI no matter how you slice it.
Will I regret getting this to replace a cayman GTS since I’m tired of the attention on the road and miss driving a manual (and want a back seat).
Edit: Ok, there are plenty of cars between the cayman and the gr86 to fill this need. But the comparison is fun : )
You'll sorely miss the power...
Going from one of the best engine notes available under $100k to that pumped in 4 cylinder whine would be horrible.
Sell your PDK Cayman for a manual Boxster GTS and don’t look back.
It is so much less powerful unless you want to tune the shit out of it, and the interior is much cheaper. I can see why you would like a understated manual, but I am not sure the downgrade would be worth it.
Of course you'll regret it. This car is way slower, doesn't handle nearly as well, and is cheaply built because it's an inexpensive car to begin with. Also, Where do you live where a Cayman gets any attention? Nobody gives a crap about any Porsche where I live.
Where I live (middle class dc suburb) it would definitely get attention.
In Appalachia where I’m from, everyone will hate you if you’re in a base, newish 3 series and you’ll have massive trucks fucking with you on purpose.
I’ve seen that before and I never understood it. Guys in $50k trucks think you’re elitist for driving a $40k car. Like… what?
People are not rational beings, expecting them to be rational is in itself irrational. It’s not the price, it’s deviation from social norms. A truck is considered honest and symbolizes hard work, and in rural America hard work is pretty much the only thing you’re “allowed” to be proud of, so a nice truck is a socially allowable indulgence.
There’s also the whole “murica” thing. I’ve been treated like shit (truck making eye contact with me while cutting into my lane repeatedly and forcing me over the white line) in *my damn brz*. I got coal rolled more in the first 6 months I had the thing than in my entire life. I can only assume it’s because it’s a coupe (valuing fun over practicality), it’s clean (vanity is bad) and it’s not American.
It’s dumb, and irrational, and shitty, but it is internally consistent.
Honestly it’s not even just trucks; in my hot hatch I get fucked with all the time by crossovers and minivans.
Like people get *offended* if you pass them even though they are a lane over.
My daily is pretty quick off the line (I don’t drive it fast, but it’s just a naturally quick car) so what happens *every day* is that I’ll pull away from everyone at red lights, they get offended, and then 1/8 of a mile up the road they’ll zoom by me at like 15 mph over the speed limit when they finally catch up; I assume to make a point.
They will also ride your ass, pass more aggressively, etc.
The funny thing is, when I’m actually driving my “fast” cars, no one messes with me at all. Like zero (unless it’s another dude in a similar car just trying to show off, which is not really malicious I guess).
It’s just something about those entry-level sports cars like the Miata, brz, 370z, and hatches like the golf r and focus that, for some reason, just really *set people off.*
Driving something like a 911 or corvette will get you almost zero attention, but if you drive a BRZ or 370z you’ll get everyone and their mom try to race you or tailgate you. It’s weird.
The more I read into your post, the more I realize how realistic GTA 5 is with their NPC driving characteristics lol. Bit by bit, everything syncs in perfectly of how NPC drivers behave.
I had a Prius as a rental for a month, and it was amazing. You could be *the biggest dickbag on the road* and no one gives a fuck. In my BRZ a guy started swearing out his window because it took me 0.5 seconds to get off the line at a green because first gear didn’t want to slot.
The new Prius honestly drives pretty good too. Turns in decently, good grip, adequate around-town power.
I feel invisible in my gf base silver honda civic, dangerously so. At least in my truck people will let me merge.
I can't tell you how many people who were going slow suddenly speed up when I get over to pass them I my ND Miata. It's infuriating. You were already going slow, why are you trying to stop me for getting over and going about my way?
Joke's on you, my shit's supercharged, bitch.
Alternatively, I mostly get ignored in my old miata for better or worse.
And in my beater truck everyone cuts me off hardcore due to it being super slow. Also, yeah, I'm almost always as far right as possible. I know I'm slow.
The fuck? (Not to you, but to that mindset)
Some of their trucks were made in Mexico.
Toyota employs a shit ton of American workers as well too.
It doesn't matter one bit when you're dealing with irrational people.
When the Oshawa plant (ON, just outside of Toronto) closed down, one of their (former) employees said that "Canadians just don't care about buying Canadian vehicles, that's very sad, they'd rather buy foreign brands!"
>foreign: of, from, in, or characteristic of a country or language other than one's own
The last I checked, Canada is not the USA. Not to mention there are a bunch of foreign brands (toyota/honda) who make vehicles right here in Canada, employing Canadians in the factory and the supply chain.
>"Canadians just don't care about buying Canadian vehicles, that's very sad, they'd rather buy foreign brands!"
The dumbfucks in America said the same thing around the bailout era. I'm sorry, am I supposed to have blind patriotism and support a company that makes objectively shitty products? The Japanese were producing way better cars, and they were produced in America as well (Ohio, Kentucky, etc). But hey, they wouldn't be saying that stuff if they were smart.
I grew up there, not the smartest inhabitants. We can only buy foreign brands in Canada, there are no national manufacturers🤦♂️
Relevant username lol
I live in the suburbs of Pittsburgh. Porsche sports cars are uncommon but don't get any attention whatsoever when they are on the road or parked. Nobody cares.
In CA any basic neighborhood of "working professionals" will have tons of em too.
Last time I was in CA (San Diego and San Jose) I saw multiple GT3s a day, hardly representative of the rest of the country lol
Cali is definitely one of those places where the “normal” is far from normal everywhere else
I've watched several ppl roll up on my father and get close/fucking with him in his 13 Boxster S. That and he's always telling me about how much attention he gets. I guess he's just unlucky?
-Pittsburgh Suburb guy
As a former BRZ owner, I think it does handle nearly as well. The Cayman handles better, but I don't think there's anything cheaper than a Cayman that handles as well as a Miata or BRZ.
Grats on living around the 1%. For the rest of the world a Porsche still draws attention, if only a little.
My Cayman gets a ton of attention here in the Houston suburbs, everyone seems to drive muscle cars and lifted trucks so imports seem more exotic than they are.
Probably. You’ll miss the power and there’s no substitute for a mid engine car. This is a great car for the money, but once you’ve lived in the $70K+ world, you don’t want to go back to $30K cars.
I agree with this, unless the $30k car is a toy. You don't want to go from spending every day in a $70k+ car to a less refined car, but there's some charm and excitement to driving a simpler car on occasion. I've been looking for an Abarth to mess around with because they're so much fun within the speed limits. I'd rather have a BRZ than a Cayman as a third car.
There is no back seat in this car. You cannot put a human in the back unless they’re a double amputee. My front seat literally touches the bottom of my back seat.
It folds down though, which means it holds like 3x as much stuff as a Miata. I can fit my wheels and tires, cooler, chair and track toolbox in it. Or like 300lbs of equipment for work in pelican cases.
Who gives attention to a Cayman?
I'd rather get a manual cayman GTS than this, I'd say this is for people who would get a cayman but can't afford it.
Uh yeah you would
Small thing I realized is that my 13 Crosstrek has the same switches for the heated seats as this car.
Going all the way back to my 2006 wrx, Subaru has utilized basically those same switches. And the roughly the same climate control with the 3 large dials for the automatic climate control. It’s modern enough to function like a new car while still being analog feeling to me.
I really hope Doug reviews a GR86 as well. I’m very curious which one he’d prefer.
I doubt he’d do that. Maybe a few years down the road, and with one of the special editions. Just like the last gen.
It’d be pointless to cover both cars for a video. It’d be been nice to have him go to a Toyota dealership and go check out an 86, and say which styling he prefers. Add another few minutes to this video. But a complete other video? Waste of his time for a car that’s nearly identical
You’re right. Maybe a short video on one of his other channels would be better.
More Doug demuro coming up.
He def forgot the password to that channel lol
Doug needs to learn what a diffuser is, because that isn’t one.
i much prefer the old styling
Controversially, I do too.
I'm pretty sure you can fold the seats flat from the trunk you just pull the loops
What in the holy hell? My 86 has been turned into an 85!
* increased horsepower
* increased engine size (2.4L)
* 1 second increase 0-60 (around 6-6.5 sec)
* lower center of gravity
* fixed torque dip
* no rev-hang
* sleeker styling (subjective)
* compared to the Toyota GR86, designed to be more confident, not as tail-happy
* worse fuel economy (requires 93)
* digital dash display
8 agree with all of his points except the styling. I feel like they softened the rear end too much and it looks a decent amount worse. The front is okay but still slightly worse. I do agree with the score he gave it for styling, I just don't think it looks any better.
I found it surprising he said the outgoing model looked like an economy car and said the refresh is sportier. I find the rear end treatment on the update a design lifted almost directly from most economy cars today. More subdued, sure, but the first gen was pretty unique, I thought.
I think the last one looked better… and the V1 versions at that before the refresh.. except the taillights are definitely better on the refresh than on V1 or the new gen
Amusing that the "iT doEsNt nEeD MorE PoWEr" crowd is completely silent now that it has it.
I mean I was part of that crowd but what do you expect us to say? That it has too much now?
*It's a widowmaker now*
I've never seen 28hp be enough power though.
Granted, all the comparisons so far are to a car from 2013. We'll see if the tune is the same after some head to heads with more recent cars.
Its among the lightest cars you can buy. 5 HP can totally be felt at those weights
Getting RC-F junior vibes. Looks good and I assume I'll be seeing plenty of these on the street.