It's basically cashflow neutral, but Mariners come up with a +4 WAR positive according to last year stats. Why the fuck did the Brewers do this ? Couldn't they have forgo the cash and said the players make up the value difference ?
I think a lot of MLB players play short stop at one point.
Like, the Astros had Correa/Peña, Gurriel, and Bregman. They've all played proffessional shortstop at some point.
Both of them. Scott/Jerry had this weird obsession with Toro and he got way more playing time than he deserved.
I really worry about Jesse. I think part of the regression in his offense was playing in a pitchers park at T-Mobile. Well, Brewers Park is just as much of a pitchers park. His home vs away stats seem pretty stark to me .625 OPS at home versus .736 away.
AAF's a bigger field than T-Mobile's too so that means his already god awful defense is gonna get worse a little bit. Not a good look.
Toro's expected stats have pretty consistently been much better than his actual ones and I don't think any player has a true-talent BABIP below .200, but even if he was hitting like statcast thinks he should it wouldn't make him all that great.
Park factors are very tricky and can be argued. It is a power boosting park regardless and should help Winker I also think the division has better parks then the ALW
T-Mobile is a very easy park to hit in, and by hits, I mean singles. Anything else is incredibly unfriendly.
Jesse winker is a solid contact guy, he couldn't for the life of him though hit with the shift. I would love to see if there is a stat somewhere showing how many times he hit it to the second baseman in shallow right field. Has to be dozens and dozens of times this year.
Imo, the shift hurt him more than anything, correct me if I'm wrong red's fans but he's never really been a power guy. I think the park was never limiting him, the defense was.
He’s unplayable in the outfield just like yelich and had multiple surgieres in the offseason and they traded renfroe to give guys like Mitchell playing time
If Winker bounces back at all, he is a really valuable hitter. He was apparently battling injuries for most of last year. Keep him at DH though lol he's an atrocity in the field.
Yelich isn’t a good defensive player anymore but he is far from the worst either. He was 4 outs below average and -2 drs. His fielding really isn’t a big problem in LF. Now his throwing arm is embarrassing for an MLB player. That is certainly a problem.
Toro was also pretty awful against the shift and still youngish (he turns 26 later this month) so there's probably also the Brewers just hoping they can get him to break out.
I mean they traded their closer in the midst of a season they were in contention. Clearly they really don't think they're in contention now or near future or none of this really makes sense.
They are expecting Turang to make a big impact in the bigs this year at 2nd. That’s why we traded Wong. The hader trade in the middle of the season made no sense. That is correct.
I feel like it's selling incredibly low on Winker. But they must really not want him back for clubhouse reasons if they're okay with not trying again.
So I get it if that's the case.
Oh yeah definitely, that was my point. They must have been 100% sure that they don't think he was going to change his work ethic. I'm always scared of selling low on assets but I understand why they made the trade.
yeah i feel that i’ll be a little bummed if goes over there and puts up like 40 HR on a .299 BA but luckily worst case scenario this trade is just okay and best case we fleeced
Yoshida would be good but I still hate that once again we went the cheap route to get production instead of opening the wallets, it's never easy to compete with a bottom 10 payroll
Would love to see it but his defense is atrocious lol he had 3 errors in under 100 innings at 2nd last year...but maybe this is the year they just say "here's 500 at bats at 2B, let us see what you can do". He did mash RHP last year.
They did...Mitchell and Frelick should get a chance out there. My thinking is that they put Winker in RF until Frelick and Mitchell are both ready, and then they can put Winker at full-time DH (?) man I dunno it's weird lol
Mariners add a ~2.5 fWAR 2B, and the Brewers take on a bit of salary hoping for a bounce back from Winker to slot in at DH and add another infielder? Everyone in this deal has some sort of red flag. Kinda weird.
Wong is a really consistent good player, and is one of the most likeable players I've ever seen. It's probably a riskier trade for the Brewers, with more potential upside for them. Hope you enjoy some Wong Dongs.
I liked Winker a lot as a personality, sucked to see him underperform.
Best of luck in Milwaukee my long neck friend
Will always remember the double bird salute
Can teams stop giving AL West teams upgrades for essentially free? Winker and Toro for Wong is a steal for the Mariners
Then there’s giving the Angels Renfroe and Urshela
I mean Mariners almost everyday 2B last year was Adam Frazier who put up 0.9 WAR and a .612 OPS. It’s not a big move but its a big upgrade in the Mariners extending their line up with an above average hitter
Yeah I mean getting 2 WAR at 2B for not much value is great. The off-season depends on how they fill the last outfield spot, but Teo and Wong are good upgrades
It’s not a big steal but going from 2022 Frazier and Winker to Teo and Wong is a good upgrade.
I like what Dipoto is doing tbh and i don’t remember if Teo has any more control but these one year upgrades are big upgrades over the Mariners offense of last year. Hasn’t really given up much of value to acquire the upgrades either.
Toro is what he is at this point a AAAA infielder that for some reason is extremely clutch but otherwise is ass.
I don’t have much faith in Winker bouncing back but that might just be me.
Oh yeah I'm fine with the trade. Wong/Dylan Moore will be a nice 2B platoon and I didn't expect Jerry to sign a big name SS. I just think some people are looking at Winker's 22 and declaring that we gave up nothing whatsoever of value, and I personally don't believe he suddenly forgot how to hit
Steamer* 2023 projections at a glance...
Wong | PA: 525 | wRC+: 107 | WAR: 2.5
---|---|----|----
Winker | PA: 469 | wRC+: 124 | WAR: 1.6
Toro | PA: 266 | wRC+: 107 | WAR: 1.0
(Sorry I suck at formatting)
Looks even from the projected WAR standpoint, but my initial reaction is I like the trade more from Milwaukee's perspective. Winker's WAR projection is brought down by him playing left field when he should be a DH, and I'm a Toro truther even after his abysmal results last year. I think a change of scenery has a real good chance to be beneficial for both players.
Wong is the superior of the three players, but this practically takes the Mariners out of the marquee SS sweepstakes which is really bumming me out right now, considering this leaves no obvious starting role for the Mariners to significantly upgrade and push for a championship run.
*Corrected from ZiPS in an earlier iteration. Thanks, /u/dszymborski, creator of ZiPS.
When I said I wouldn’t mind seeing more of Winker again, this isn’t what I had in mind
Lol
Passan : $1.75 million in cash to SEA https://twitter.com/JeffPassan/status/1598787450071093256?t=0fGjXkIxGmuhUwX87CcBig&s=19
Sweet now we can afford Judge
10/$1.75M seems like a nice offer to put on the table for Judge. Can’t imagine he says no to that.
I mean I'd love to make $175k per year
60 HRs and we'll talk
The real reason for the trade
Famous poverty franchise the Seattle Mariners
Just add a couple zeros to that check.
They got him through spring training now.
000000000001.75 million
Dee Gordon trade all over again
Wonder what purpose this money serves
Filling the vending machines for the players
Soda's a dollar in the clubhouse?
Billy likes to keep the money ON the field.
where on the field is my dollar
It's difficult to see... but it's there.
It's basically the difference in salary between Wong (10mil) and Winker (8.25mil)
It's basically cashflow neutral, but Mariners come up with a +4 WAR positive according to last year stats. Why the fuck did the Brewers do this ? Couldn't they have forgo the cash and said the players make up the value difference ?
Ah okay that makes sense
Gives our cheap ass owners a little chub when they get some cash
Just Jerry doing Jerry things.
Brewers are good tippers confirmed
The AL west is carrying this off season
Just wait until the Rangers sign Correa and Turner
You've had one shortstop You've had two shortstops But have you had *four shortstops???*
Oops all shortstops
I think a lot of MLB players play short stop at one point. Like, the Astros had Correa/Peña, Gurriel, and Bregman. They've all played proffessional shortstop at some point.
Tbf a large # of prospects that get drafted are labeled SS. They just switch in the minors.
He played quarterback in high school
You were close lmao
I wish I weren't
Jerry Dipoto could carry a whole offseason by himself
Need preller to start and then we’ll be rolling
Just wait until the A's sign Judge.
As always tbh (last two years)
Mariners finally got (rid of) their guy!
Both of them. Scott/Jerry had this weird obsession with Toro and he got way more playing time than he deserved. I really worry about Jesse. I think part of the regression in his offense was playing in a pitchers park at T-Mobile. Well, Brewers Park is just as much of a pitchers park. His home vs away stats seem pretty stark to me .625 OPS at home versus .736 away. AAF's a bigger field than T-Mobile's too so that means his already god awful defense is gonna get worse a little bit. Not a good look.
Toro's expected stats have pretty consistently been much better than his actual ones and I don't think any player has a true-talent BABIP below .200, but even if he was hitting like statcast thinks he should it wouldn't make him all that great.
I have a soft spot for Toro because I traded for him in my Show Franchise and he was the 2023 World Series MVP lol
[I still miss him](https://twitter.com/baseballnchill/status/1168248649052086272)
Milwaukee is not a pitchers park
Baseball Refrence has it at 98/97 historically, 94/94 this year. Under 100 being favoring pitchers.
Park factors are very tricky and can be argued. It is a power boosting park regardless and should help Winker I also think the division has better parks then the ALW
T-Mobile is a very easy park to hit in, and by hits, I mean singles. Anything else is incredibly unfriendly. Jesse winker is a solid contact guy, he couldn't for the life of him though hit with the shift. I would love to see if there is a stat somewhere showing how many times he hit it to the second baseman in shallow right field. Has to be dozens and dozens of times this year. Imo, the shift hurt him more than anything, correct me if I'm wrong red's fans but he's never really been a power guy. I think the park was never limiting him, the defense was.
T-Mobile is fucking great to hit in if your name is Mike Trout though.
Savant 3-year average puts Mariners park at 91 (30th), Brewers park at 100 (12th).
It's more HR friendly for LHH than Yankee Stadium!
Pretty sure Miller Park is a bandbox most years
I think most people consider Milwaukee to be a hitters park especially for lefties
I'm disgusted
W for the mariners finally get that 2B
Finally finished paying that Cano money they have a 2B budget again
I have no idea how this works for the Brewers. Like getting rid of wong I get. But I have no idea how Winker makes sense
We really do just be looking at our small collection of good players and decide to flip them for other teams' dregs.
If winker bounces back y’all look like geniuses though
idk I just think I'd rather take the consistent 2.5 WAR than take whatever's behind door number one
It could even be a boat!
Well and you’re losing Wong’s defense
Winker at 2b would be fun
I'd pay PPV dollars to watch that
His defense was absolutely garbage last year, definitely lost the step he previously had on everyone else
They traded Renfroe and are backfilling with Winker I guess? Winker's underlying metrics still look good, so maybe they think he'll bounce back.
He’s unplayable in the outfield just like yelich and had multiple surgieres in the offseason and they traded renfroe to give guys like Mitchell playing time
Brewers had pretty bad production from the dh spot last season and have great defensive outfielders to rotate into the field when necessary
Our bench guys are great fielders but mediocre hitters. Backup DH is a role we struggled to fill, and where Winker will slot in if his bat wakes up.
Winker is Cutch replacement not Renfroe replacement.
If Winker bounces back at all, he is a really valuable hitter. He was apparently battling injuries for most of last year. Keep him at DH though lol he's an atrocity in the field.
> He was apparently battling injuries for ~~most of last year~~ his entire career.
Also the entire being separated from his daughter. Maybe being back in the Midwest/NL Central will help with that
Buying low on two players who were pretty good in 2021. It’s a solid calculated risk for them.
has a pretty damn good career OBP, draws a lot of BBs, who wouldn't want a player like that?
One of the worst fielders in all of baseball. If they have Yelich and Winker. It legit is the worst defensive OF in all of baseball
Hold my beer
Eloy Jimenez tripped over his shoelaces while reading this thread. Andrew Vaughn tried to catch him but missed.
but Beer plays for Arizona
Shit you’re right. I guess I’m the DD cuz you’ll have to hold my Colas then.
Yelich isn’t a good defensive player anymore but he is far from the worst either. He was 4 outs below average and -2 drs. His fielding really isn’t a big problem in LF. Now his throwing arm is embarrassing for an MLB player. That is certainly a problem.
He's a DH who (until this year when his splits switched for some reason) can't hit lefties and is coming off of the worst season of his career.
Those splits will regress. Reverse splits hitters almost always revert back.
Banning the shift gives Winker a good shot at turning it around.
Toro was also pretty awful against the shift and still youngish (he turns 26 later this month) so there's probably also the Brewers just hoping they can get him to break out.
Massive bounceback potential.
The brewers are being weird again
I mean they traded their closer in the midst of a season they were in contention. Clearly they really don't think they're in contention now or near future or none of this really makes sense.
They are expecting Turang to make a big impact in the bigs this year at 2nd. That’s why we traded Wong. The hader trade in the middle of the season made no sense. That is correct.
I thought Winker was going to rake in Seattle
Me too buddy
To quote Justin Verlander "WHERE THE FUCK IS TORO?"
Mariners are going hard and I love it.
i like this trade lol
I feel like it's selling incredibly low on Winker. But they must really not want him back for clubhouse reasons if they're okay with not trying again. So I get it if that's the case.
it does but i can’t imagine a change of scenery is gonna change the way he is. sad to see him go
Oh yeah definitely, that was my point. They must have been 100% sure that they don't think he was going to change his work ethic. I'm always scared of selling low on assets but I understand why they made the trade.
yeah i feel that i’ll be a little bummed if goes over there and puts up like 40 HR on a .299 BA but luckily worst case scenario this trade is just okay and best case we fleeced
If Wong puts up 3 WAR again then yeah it would be fine as Jesse's defense would still be so bad lol.
It means we are getting another outfielder. That’s the move behind this trade
i have a few OF id love to get not named aaron judge
Most likely Conforto or Yoshida. Maybe Nimmo or they trade for guy
Yoshida would be good but I still hate that once again we went the cheap route to get production instead of opening the wallets, it's never easy to compete with a bottom 10 payroll
Conforto screams Mariner outfielder to me
Nimmo would be nice?
Me too
Just the thought that I never have to see Winker playing in the OF for us again makes me smile.
What are the Brewers doing?!
Giving their prospects a chance...they have a good one for 2B
Keston szn bby
Would love to see it but his defense is atrocious lol he had 3 errors in under 100 innings at 2nd last year...but maybe this is the year they just say "here's 500 at bats at 2B, let us see what you can do". He did mash RHP last year.
Really feels like with banning the shift next season that this would end disasterously for Keston.
I thought they traded Renfroe to give their outfield prospects a chance? Now they acquired another outfielder?
They did...Mitchell and Frelick should get a chance out there. My thinking is that they put Winker in RF until Frelick and Mitchell are both ready, and then they can put Winker at full-time DH (?) man I dunno it's weird lol
Who else do they have DHing? I can understand this a bit if Winker/Yelich spend time at DH instead of sucking it up in the outfield
That's pretty much it. We had Clutch last year as DH, but with him gone I think it's mostly Winker and Yeli
We'll never know.
Our best
Mariners turned -1 WAR into 3 WAR
Winkers greatest contribution was trying to fight the entire Angels team tbh
How do we measure XPunch war?
I think it falls under the DAWG stat.
Not sure- but I do know his *xBIRD* line was 2.000 Which is pretty damn good.
And we thank him for that iconic moment in Mariners history
Yup. We would go on to win 17 of our next 19 games after that series, including a 14 game win streak. That fight lit a fire under their asses
reminder this is a false narrative as the mariners were already on a 5 game win streak prior to the fight
I wonder if commercials will still call the park the "electric factory" since he's the one who said it lmao
And I’ll always love him for that
They're gonna have to change the sidebar image on that subreddit lol
When we got Winker, did we "get" Winker's 2021 2.9 WAR?
Ms coming up big on both sides of this deal
Mariners add a ~2.5 fWAR 2B, and the Brewers take on a bit of salary hoping for a bounce back from Winker to slot in at DH and add another infielder? Everyone in this deal has some sort of red flag. Kinda weird.
Wong for Winker and Toro? I'm not sure who this works for more.
The Mariners - Winker and Toro had negative WAR this year.
That's probably fair. too bad Toro hasn't had a good career, really liked him
Liked him when he was an astro, he had a bad year with the mariners. Hope he bounces back
an Astro killer has left the West
Please take care of him, /r/Mariners. He eats three times a day and you need to declare WONG DONG whenever he homers
RAISE YOUR WONGERS
Trading Winker Dinkers for WONG DONGs. I'm about it
>WONG DONG It's beautiful. I have looked at this for 2 hours now.
Congrats Brew Crew, Toro has a giant ass that you will love looking at all season. Source: me.
There's only room for one big dumper in this town
Unfortunately, his statline is also a giant ass, and you will not love looking at it
What is Justin cooking?
Genius from Milwaukee. I know mariner fans hate winker but he’s a god in GABP and hits the rest of the NL central well too
Winker on Milwaukee feels right
No the fuck it doesn't
*for everyone but Reds fans*
No it does not
https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/753/231/981.gif
You're thinking of Henry Winkler, who played Fonzie on Happy Days, which was set in Milwaukee. Easy mistake.
Absolutely fucking not
I’ve been thinking that Wong on the Mariners ‘feels right’ ever since the rumors started popping up.
Lmao wtf? Winner is a Red
> Winner is a Red Usually the Reds are losers, but I get what you mean.
Winners in our hearts
stop taking all the likeable players Seattle
We traded for Teoscar just to avoid him in the WC games.
It’s like Michael Scott hiring Danny Cordray (I have no idea how to spell that last name)
No
Kinda wild that the Mariners said “we want this guy” and “we don’t want these two guys” and poof it worked.
That’s just the negotiating might of Trader Jerry in action.
Man, great potential in snagging Winker
Tell me how to feel about this Brewers fans?
Wong is a really consistent good player, and is one of the most likeable players I've ever seen. It's probably a riskier trade for the Brewers, with more potential upside for them. Hope you enjoy some Wong Dongs.
I liked Winker a lot as a personality, sucked to see him underperform. Best of luck in Milwaukee my long neck friend Will always remember the double bird salute
Kolten is nice
Ah so Winker is back in the division
Thank goodness. Toro always showed up to play us.
Damm mariners, going by 2022 season, traded away -1.1 bWAR for 3.1 bWAR
So the Cardinals are gonna win the Central by default it appears
Unless Oneil Cruz hits 100 dongs this year
Someone tell the players to wear a cup
I’m all about the Bucs getting a dick punch handicap.
RETURN OF THE JeDi!
I can finally root for my boy again.
If Winker only is a DH then this is a great move for the Brewers tbh. As a Mariners fan I am whelmed.
Can teams stop giving AL West teams upgrades for essentially free? Winker and Toro for Wong is a steal for the Mariners Then there’s giving the Angels Renfroe and Urshela
rules for thee but not for me
You guys just (fairly easily) won the world series and signed one of the best FA available, I think you'll be ok haha
A steal? I mean Wong is good, but I wouldn't call him great
I mean Mariners almost everyday 2B last year was Adam Frazier who put up 0.9 WAR and a .612 OPS. It’s not a big move but its a big upgrade in the Mariners extending their line up with an above average hitter
Yeah I mean getting 2 WAR at 2B for not much value is great. The off-season depends on how they fill the last outfield spot, but Teo and Wong are good upgrades
Winker was playing hurt all year. He's probably going to be back to hitting very well in 2023. This trade is not that big of a steal IMO
It’s not a big steal but going from 2022 Frazier and Winker to Teo and Wong is a good upgrade. I like what Dipoto is doing tbh and i don’t remember if Teo has any more control but these one year upgrades are big upgrades over the Mariners offense of last year. Hasn’t really given up much of value to acquire the upgrades either. Toro is what he is at this point a AAAA infielder that for some reason is extremely clutch but otherwise is ass. I don’t have much faith in Winker bouncing back but that might just be me.
Oh yeah I'm fine with the trade. Wong/Dylan Moore will be a nice 2B platoon and I didn't expect Jerry to sign a big name SS. I just think some people are looking at Winker's 22 and declaring that we gave up nothing whatsoever of value, and I personally don't believe he suddenly forgot how to hit
At least noted Astros killer Toro is gone
Best of luck to Abraham "Where the Fuck is Toro" Toro.
Mariners ain't messing around this off season I see.
Brewers are shaping up to have the best hitting outfield of 2017
Steamer* 2023 projections at a glance... Wong | PA: 525 | wRC+: 107 | WAR: 2.5 ---|---|----|---- Winker | PA: 469 | wRC+: 124 | WAR: 1.6 Toro | PA: 266 | wRC+: 107 | WAR: 1.0 (Sorry I suck at formatting) Looks even from the projected WAR standpoint, but my initial reaction is I like the trade more from Milwaukee's perspective. Winker's WAR projection is brought down by him playing left field when he should be a DH, and I'm a Toro truther even after his abysmal results last year. I think a change of scenery has a real good chance to be beneficial for both players. Wong is the superior of the three players, but this practically takes the Mariners out of the marquee SS sweepstakes which is really bumming me out right now, considering this leaves no obvious starting role for the Mariners to significantly upgrade and push for a championship run. *Corrected from ZiPS in an earlier iteration. Thanks, /u/dszymborski, creator of ZiPS.
No way Toro will have a 107 wrc+
Good for the Mariners. Kolten Wong is a good 2B. Should be a great help for them.
Seems like an awesome trade for the M's.
proof the brewers front office are functioning alcoholics the trade sorta makes sense but i'm also not gonna let them drive
So we’re just giving up on the SS market, awesome
Clearly saving up for Judge and Ohtani
Brewers are a confusing org
Wonger's raised!
This is exactly how I'd expect a DiPoto and Brewers trade to look