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joofish

It would cost 6 million for one team to pay 200 minor leaguers 30k and 8 mil for 40k. That's like one alright MLB player's salary and the increase is even less if you account for the salaries and bonuses already being paid. Every team can afford that. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if every team could afford to pay minor leaguers 80k/year.


yamshortbread

This problem is rampant and terrible. Minor leaguers are impoverished and it's unlikely to change as some owners are actually profiting off of their poverty. For example, the owner of the minor league Burlington Lake Monsters has made a fortune making predatory payday loans to ballplayers. https://www.rakevt.org/2021/09/08/baseballs-predatory-loan-firms-give-us-a-new-lake-monster/


DrGonzo34

That number is still ridiculously low! Though I agree with your analysis.


nypr13

It is ridiculously low because it's incorrect. You should not agree with his analysis. Those numbers don't include social security tax to the employer nor does it include health care benefit costs, should they offer it. I'm not saying that they should or should not pay a living wage, I am just saying that his analysis is inaccurate. Below are government numbers, so they probably underestimate the spread, but it says 1.25 to 1.4x salary. https://www.sba.gov/blog/how-much-does-employee-cost-you It's just another hidden tax workers don't see going in out of their pocket.....and certainly nobody sees anything substantial coming out from the place it goes.


spacedude2000

Ok so moral of the story, implement universal healthcare, create tax breaks for the lower and middle classes, then mandate minimum minor league pay.


illseeyouinthefog

I am once again asking for your support


Ghost_Of_Sun-Bat-Her

Hell yeah brother


truexchill

Sounds good to me.


Jorlung

Get on it Manfred!


Salvador_20

I’m not hating on you or your take at all, I just don’t understand how Reddit is consistently this progressive, even on r/baseball. How is there never any pushback to these ideas on Reddit? It always gets upvoted like crazy. I just don’t understand how American subreddits are like this but in the real world in america there is very little support for these kinds of policies. Must be a Reddit demographic thing


spacedude2000

All good, but I'd like you to know that majority of Americans do, infact, want single payer "universal" healthcare. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/09/29/increasing-share-of-americans-favor-a-single-government-program-to-provide-health-care-coverage/ Reddit is always going to be progressive, because it's dominated by young people, who are largely progressive and dominated by urban dwellers who are largely progressive. It's not that deep, reddit naturally doesn't breed this political ideology, it's just where ideas both progressive and conservative on the spectrum get disseminated amongst users. The rest of western world has these basic policies but America is too involved in war profiteering, resource hoarding, and protecting the rich to care about basic societal needs.


GetInMyOfficeLemon

Very important to note these questions are often asked without any conditions, context, etc. When people realize who is actually going to be managing that system they want, their answers will probably change. Source, the same research group: https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2021/05/17/public-trust-in-government-1958-2021/


ML523

I find that really astonishing. What did they expect, UHG to be the sole payer? The company everyone flat out despises?


Salvador_20

I see, thanks. Perhaps my viewpoint as someone who grew up in rural Indiana may be different from most on this platform haha


Osayicansee

CHYYY-NA


joofish

Fair enough but my comment still wasn’t “ridiculously” low. You’re own source says benefits is only 25-40 percent more and I did say they could probably all afford 80k/year (so 100% more) and be fine.


nypr13

The law of 72 states that if you divide 72 by whatever rate you compound at, that's how long it takes to double. So, at the low end, it's 2x as expensive as you said after 3 years, and 2x as expensive in under 2 years if you take the high end. I mean, if you can find $8 mln in between your seat cushions every 20 to 35 months, then I salute you.


joofish

I think you are misreading the source you gave or my comment. It’s not a compounding 25-40% each year, just 25-40% more than the stated salary for a given year for benefits.


lego_tintin

MLB teams CAN find 8 million between their seat cushions every 2 to 3 years. Besides, if they invest more in minor league baseball and one future MLB player stays in the game instead of quitting, it pays for itself.


sluggerrr

Some e-sports players earn way more in an industry that isn't profitable yet lol


matchosan

They could pay the minor leagues much more, but that would cut into the profits that the minor league player does not guarantee.


Cs00_00

Wow! I wasn’t aware just how low the pay is for these guys. I understand they are gambling on themselves to make it big (while playing a game they presumably love), but most never make it. I think a $35k minimum is VERY reasonable.


Worthyness

Yeah. MLB isn't required to pay even minimum wage. And on top of that the players are mandated to pay out of their paychecks to get shit tier meals prepped for them, tips to the club house workers (who are also paid shit wages), and pay for their own rent. They're basically in poverty until they make it to the 40 man roster, which pays a decent salary. A minor league catcher is better off trying to be a bullpen catcher since they can make like 60k.


realparkingbrake

> MLB isn't required to pay even minimum wage. MLB donated money to members of Congress friendly to MLB's desire that MiLB players be classified as seasonal workers. They got their way.


Veserius

Not even workers. Seasonal apprentices.


Qyxstyx

Seems like a short sighted approach by teams. To unlock the best in players they need to focus on baseball with good nutrition and good development programs.


BoobiesAndBeers

This also kind of glosses over the disparity between top prospects and the players who just fill a roster spot in AA. I would imagine the teams #1 rated prospect is probably doing better than 30k/yr and hungry man meals.


OlafShvenski

They get the same pay, but they likely had a big signing bonus to start out with


Lee_Doff

well, they pay *those* players.


Alexander1899

The reason is the vast majority of players who are going to make it were drafted high and got huge signing bonuses.


ruiner8850

Exactly, I've never understood why teams don't see their minor leaguers as investments. It seems silly to not treat them well and do everything in their power to make them better players.


Ace-Red

Because 90% of minor leaguers are just seen as stand ins for an orgs top prospects to get glorified scrimmages in.


taffyowner

Because frankly a lot of them are not an investment


matchosan

Need to be hungry to advance


Regit_Jo

I believe the Astros have made efforts to provide housing and nutrition for their minor leaguers


River_Pigeon

Players are not paying their own rent this year, though I’ve heard the system has been difficult for players with families. I think the same goes for food now as well.


20somethingzilch

pretty sure i make more than that as a mover.


BaltimoreBadger23

$35k is probably a good amount, maybe bump to $50k in AAA. The salary needs to be livable so that talented players from poor backgrounds can develop their skills without having to worry about every last penny, but also low enough to motivate those with talent to push to the bugs while those who aren't going to make it won't hang around just for the money.


doyouhavesource2

Most of these guys "work" 3 hours a day 4 days a week for half the year. Dont get me wrong they should be paid more and big stars less but the majority of minor players are just playing to play at this point knowing full well they'll never make it big


TheArgsenal

Yeah, no one trains or travels in the minors.


doyouhavesource2

They take BP for an hour and fielding. Just like college baseball. Shit they do less than college baseball. And that still wasn't a full time 40 hr/we 52 weeks commitment.


hopelessautisticnerd

I'll take some of whatever you're smoking, please.


doyouhavesource2

You're telling me minor league baseball players are putting in 40 hours a week for 52 weeks straight?


AMarinerLostAtSEA

No. They put a lot more time than that


doyouhavesource2

Hahaha no they don't. I know many who played on a AA team. They weren't working a full time job on the team not even close


Shermany

Well first of all they play 6 games a week so you've already established you don't know what you're talking about


doyouhavesource2

For 4 months. What are they doing the other 8 months? 1.5 months for spring training?? So wheres this 40.hours a week for 52 weeks when they play for 4 months only? Only need to show up 2 hours prior to games for bp/fielding and then a 3 hour game. 6 hours total.


durpheusmawgg

That couldn't be further away from the truth


simonrl1

Hey all, author of the piece here. Thanks for sharing and for all the comments. For those interested, the organization I co-founded is running a petition to get minor leaguers a living wage: [Petition](https://secure.everyaction.com/ey2AvwxUEUOckQb-yx6P6g2)


samhartm

Signed! Thanks for your insight, and good luck with the movement to improve the lives of thousands of MiLB players. All my best with missing bats as well!


penguinopph

Because it's a job people want, and those that pay the wages know this and take advantage of people's dreams (and their ability to lobby congress) to pay as little as possible.


YesImKeithHernandez

Reminds me of stories about working in video games


Lee_Doff

now the pay looks good, but the amount of time (and toxic bullshit) you have to work to get that money, not so much.


AJRiddle

And let's be honest, if teams were forced to pay players more - say $30k/year minimum - the franchises would simply have fewer players playing in the MiLB in America and setup more teams in the Dominican Republic, Puerto Rico, etc and lean on foreign talent more.


palsc5

The entire system is fucked. I'm a relatively new fan but the fact MLB (American sports in general) can be run as legally protected monopolies is insane. Soccer in Europe has the right idea. Don't want to invest in your team? Fine, they'll lose and get relegated. Teams in the minors doing well? Great, they'll get promoted. No affiliated teams, no fucking with peoples contracts, none of that. Your club develops its own talent and buys/sells players as needed. No leaving to another city. Imagine a system where the best 30 make up the MLB, next best are in a AAA national league, next best are a AA national league, and then those leagues are fed by regional leagues. Last in each division gets relegated, top in each division gets promoted.


redtail_faye

I mean, they should probably get paid more but I would've happily played AA ball for even 15k a year when I was in my early 20s.


matchosan

Until you did, but you couldn't, because of the better skills another player had. So you would have played an inferior game compared to the player that did make it for a measly $15K(Which might be kind of good pay at the time). How much more should that better player make? Remember, you need to go through a few levels of ball before you can reach AA. Each one paying less and in places that are difficult to make ends meet. $15K a season would mean you are ready for the show buddy, and you ain't even ready for a cup of instant coffee.


downtown3641

Why can't every employer pay a living wage?


[deleted]

Because there’s no such thing as a living wage. That’s why a number is never agreed upon. A $50k salary can be heaven or hell depending on your unique life circumstances — marital status, whether you have kids and how many, whether you’re in a LCOL or HCOL area, your debts, your savings, the way you spend your money. When I graduated college I was making about $60k and living large. Now I make more, but the money situation is tighter. Funny how that works.


HabeusCuppus

> When I graduated college I was making about $60k and living large. that might have something to do with dramatic inflation that's run nearly uninterrupted\* since 1971, depending on your age. Heck, let's say you graduated in 2000. That 60k right out of college? it had the buying power of *$100,000* in 2022 dollars. \*small lulls in the 90s and the late 00's.


Lee_Doff

a quarter pounder value meal was $4.25 at the mcdonalds near my campus in 99-01 which was in the main city of the metro area. i remember this because it was a nice round number. i think that was around $.25 more than the suburbs at the time. i dont know the point of this rant, but it sucks that it now costs something like $9.87?


sixseventeen

Shhhhh inflation doesnt exist unless its time to whine about gas/bread


[deleted]

Yeah, a little bit has to do with inflation. My salary increases faster than the rate of inflation anyway. Some other more important factors contributing to tight finances: Larger apartment, new expensive zip code, partner lost their income due to illness, lifestyle creep, all while trying to save money for a wedding. My only point is there isn’t a one-size-fits-all wage that works for everyone’s living situation. The 25-year-old debtless bachelor doesn’t need as much money to live on as the 40-year-old divorced dad of 3 kids. We can (and should) increase the minimum wage, but a living wage is an illusion. As soon as a living wage is put into policy, and given an exact number, there will be people who say “wait, that’s less than I make right now, and I can barely afford to live.”


Gopokes34

I'm not disagreeing with you but it's still true to a certain extent without taking in inflation. When I graduated college, I didn't make much money at all as a first year teacher. But me and my wife lived in a pretty basic one bedroom apartment. Both still had cars from high school. Now we live in a nicer rental house with 2 bedrooms in a nice neighborhood, and my wife has a newer vehicle. I'm making some more money, but we can spend less.


man2010

You say you have less to spend but at the same time you're spending more on a nicer place to live in a nicer neighborhood with a newer car. Those are major expenses that you're spending more on than when you graduated


[deleted]

That’s how life is. One day you’re 20 and need only to support yourself and your gaming addiction, next you’re 30 and have a partner who wants to honeymoon in Switzerland, next you’re 40 and you have to pay $2200 per month in child support while maintaining a 3 bedroom apartment. Life gets expensive real fast. So what income is livable for everyone?


Gopokes34

Right, but I assume it’s similar stuff with the OP. He makes money, but more expensive house, kids to pay for, etc.


HabeusCuppus

sure but he probably makes a lot less 'more money' than most people might intuitively assume. For one thing, his situation at graduation (assuming sake of argument that 2000ish is correct) is comparable to some 18yo today who gets out of school and immediately makes 100k. someone making 60k *today* isn't living large, but they wouldn't have in 2000 either when the equivalent wage was more like 35k. I think all of this is missing the point though, there's an amount of money that *most people*\* could afford to own property and raise children on, and the US already collects all the data necessary to calculate it for every zip code in the country, and that data is publicly available which is why MIT has a tool [here](https://livingwage.mit.edu/) that lets you calculate it right now. (national average *expected* living expenses for a family of four is 85,000$/yr or about 42.50 an hour) that number obviously varies by age of children and geography, but it also means a 'living wage' is close to 21$/hr, not 7.25. But lets put that into context, 85k/yr in 2022 is 51k/yr in 2000, so of course OP was living large as a single adult male making almost 20% more than the average cost of living for a family of four! \* say 90th percentile.


Gopokes34

Like I was saying, the inflation plays a factor for sure, but this will tend to happen regardless of inflation.


HabeusCuppus

having less free spending money because you have more responsibilities? yes, but that's also not at all what people are talking about when they talk about a living wage. they're talking about being able to afford those responsibilities, which is something a lot of Americans *Can't* do. (~12% of the US lives below poverty line as defined by the 1960 OPM measure, ~43% of the US is below the SPM "insufficient income" line\*, which is ~200% of the poverty adjusted for geographic cost of living variations.) \* to put this in context, for the EU the equivalent figure is about 25%.


ewolfy13

Because capitalism tells them they don’t have to


ArbitraryOrder

Right because substandard wages only exist because of capitalism


HabeusCuppus

well, systems before mercantilism mostly didn't *have* wages, so that's a little bit true on a technicality.


ewolfy13

I mean yeah. The key element of capitalism is putting yourself over everyone else. Make the most money by screwing other over. Any employer that pays minimum wage (or less) in this case is essentially saying that if they could legally give you less money, they would


Lee_Doff

well, they are paying what people are accepting to do the job, but sure. if nobody wanted to run a cash register at target for $9/hr, they would have to pay more. but then of course they hand out even weirder hours on the schedule to fuck you over in different ways.


tyler-86

I mean, the free market is the reason why not all jobs pay a living wage. You only have to pay someone the least that anyone will take to do the job. That's not an indictment of capitalism or the free market. It's just the state of affairs. Personally I don't think all jobs are supposed to pay a living wage. Some of them just aren't skilled or valuable enough and the market wouldn't support it. edit: Downvote me, fine, but you'd all be bitching about the price of goods and services if every unskilled laborer were making a living wage, particularly in places where the COL is incredibly high.


ArbitraryOrder

But that isn't true that only a free market operates that way, state run economies have tons of persons with little to no wages.


BillyBones844

Because 30 to 40 percent of voters actually believe America is the greatest country in the world and it would all collapse if people were treated fairly


[deleted]

[удалено]


[deleted]

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[deleted]

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[deleted]

I, for one, am absolutely befuddled at the fact I'm not making $50k+ for my 15-20 hours a week working at my local cinema. Stupid capitalism.


realparkingbrake

> I, for one, am absolutely befuddled at the fact I'm not making $50k+ for my 15-20 hours a week working at my local cinema. Have you been training since grade school to do that job? Does that job involve a serious risk of career-ending physical injury? Does that job require skills and both mental and physical attributes that only a small percentage of the population have to perform at a professional level? No, no, and no? Well then, your comment was very silly, wasn't it.


[deleted]

My comment was a reply to the statement that EVERYONE deserves a "living wage" so... now what?


matchosan

How much do you make? Can you take those skills and apply them in a different situation? Can a baseball player make more money in the NBA? NFL? NHL? With the skills that he was honing since he had a dream? Was your dream to be walking on sticky floors?


[deleted]

The principles of inference have failed you too I see. You churlish amnesiac fool. Learn how to follow a conversational thread and begone from me!


matchosan

looser


Cs00_00

Most do. This is an extreme example of it not happening though.


drcornstarch

Let me introduce you to this thing we call the *real world*.


Cs00_00

Oh, my mistake- didn’t realize I’ve live my whole life in a fantasy. Please accept my sincerest apologies for fucking this up. Damn I must be lucky.


moral_panic_

If you've never worked a job that didn't pay you a sub living wage yes you are lucky and living in a fucking fantasy.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Malarkeycreator

You are just missing the point mate. That’s why you’re being downvoted. Not because of cOpInG


[deleted]

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sunstorm0

lots of people work their asses off their whole lives and are rewarded with nothing. you are lucky that your effort was fruitful.


Lee_Doff

well, they are looking for people to work in the trades. that pays really well. i think a journeyman electrician in my local makes $46/hr on the check now.


Malarkeycreator

That’s fair.


Lee_Doff

luckily when i worked those jobs, i lived at home and was in hikeskool. then again for a bit while i was in college. now i dont have to anymore because i have skillz.


Cs00_00

I worked $8 minimum wage jobs as a teen. Then I realized I’d never make it anywhere playing baseball and couldn’t afford college, so I joined the military and ate shit for 9 years. I sacrificed for my fantasy.


pepperouchau

You're so self-reliant because you...took a government job???


deliriuz

“I had a shitty life so everyone should be forced to have one too.” Buck up kiddo.


BillyBones844

Dude shut up. The military isn't that hard and that much of a sacrifice. Just because you can push a broom for 8 hours a day and be coddled by your Sgts doesnt make you a fuckin hero.


Malarkeycreator

You are lucky.


JustMeTeemo

You probably live a very privileged life if you actually believe that.


Raccoon_Full_of_Cum

Because baseball owners are all impoverished and on the verge of homelessness, but they selflessly run the teams at a constant loss, because they just love the game that much. Duh. Don't you know anything, idiot?


realparkingbrake

Billionaires not making enough money is one of the great underappreciated tragedies of our age.


Pupienus

More Than Baseball also posted a short report on their website [https://www.morethanbaseball.org/issue-report](https://www.morethanbaseball.org/issue-report) with player survey results/testimonials/etc.


simonrl1

Thanks for sharing!!


BigSportsNerd

because the billionaires want to hoard all the money and don't see any incentive to trickle down their vast profits to the proles in the minors the fact that they had to put up with conditions that bad for that long is disturbing especially considering how much baseball turns in profit per year. Nobody is saying they should be catered to like kings but a decent living wage would be nice


realparkingbrake

> because the billionaires want to hoard all the money and don't see any incentive to trickle down their vast profits to the proles in the minors Just because team revenues almost doubled in the past decade, and the value of MLB teams has skyrocketed in about the same length of time doesn't mean the owners can afford.... Wait, I guess it kind of does mean they can afford to take better care of MiLb players.


matchosan

Hell, the owners even refuse to share with the players in the MLB. The ones that are making them all them profits. MiLB can get in line, is the owner's motto.


samplestiltskin_

Good op-ed from Simon Rosenblum-Larson, who’s also a co-founder of the non-profit More Than Baseball.


Pupienus

And also a Harvard player, this isn't some random minor leaguer that got in front of a reporter. I knew him in high school and he's a genuinely smart dude who's on the right side of these kinds of issues.


simonrl1

Thanks for sharing!


BioRunner03

Why? Because you're playing for less than it, thats why. You could make this argument about literally any low paying job. There are a glut of minor league players that would fill in the system, the higher level prospects are getting paid a living wage. Unfortunately they couldn't really care less about a minor league catcher who will never come to be anything in the majors.


BonerSoupAndSalad

Also, you don’t have to play baseball for a living if the money isn’t right. You can do something else.


BioRunner03

Agreed totally. Most of these guys are chasing a dream that they know they realistically can't reach.


KangzAteMyFamily

Billionaires wouldn't pay anything if they could get away with it.


tyler-86

It can. It doesn't.


kampfgruppekarl

Are enough people going to minor league games to make it profitable?


ElonPleaseBuyReddit

Because there are so many of them and they are so replicable combined with it being a job that people want given their chance to go pro. The market will pay exactly what the labor will accept. Basic economics is lost on so many people. e: Also if you care so much, start going to your local AA team's game. Buy merch. Take in the concessions. It's no different than the reason the WNBA players make pennies on the dollar for what NBA players make.


GrogSmashToPieces

Basic economics is lost on some people? Your local minor league team does not pay minor league players. Buying merch/food/tickets at a minor league does nothing but generate revenue for that team’s owner.


ElonPleaseBuyReddit

"Basic economics is lost on so many people" is a reference to "The market will pay exactly what the labor will accept." which isn't debatable. And yes, if the market for A/AA/AAA clubs increases the players will have greater earnings potential; something else that isn't debatable.


GrogSmashToPieces

I feel like we can do this circle dance all day long but you are missing the point of how players are paid. The minor league teams pay 0 dollars to their players, the major league team does. A full stadium at AA does not translate to what the market value of their players is.


ElonPleaseBuyReddit

Bigger market for A/AA/AAA games = more money to be made by clubs and players. It doesn't matter who is paying them, they will be able to command more and there will be more to go around when the market for the product is larger.


jfk_sfa

Doesn't seem like a huge stretch to assume that if every minor league game was sold out with high ticket prices and all the merch sold and tons of concessions were sold that the players would make more money. That would certainly drive up competition.


GrogSmashToPieces

At the major league level sure, but the owners of minor league teams are often not the same ownership as the major league teams. Minor league owners pay ushers, ticket takers, promotions, office staff, etc. They do not pay the players a single penny. Minor league players salary is paid entirely through the MLB team.


kampfgruppekarl

yep, and MLB players are not putting any money into the MBL teams' pockets. All the concessions and tickets go to the minor league owners.


matchosan

The Minor League owners, soon to be mostly the same guys that own the MLB teams.


PeteyNice

Plot Twist: OP owns a minor league team.


steezyskizy

I have to agree. I feel for the minor leaguers, but sadly thats about what the labor market says they are worth to play minor league baseball. If they dont like it, they really only have two options: change careers or start their own league where they get paid whatever they bring in…


Krombopolus_M

A league run by billionaires cannot pay their employees a liveable wage? That's disgusting


DeadKateAlley

Even worse: they totally can and just don't.


matchosan

won't. The owners won't pay out anything they don't need to.


[deleted]

Describes most of the county, tbh


BioRunner03

They can but why would they? They have hundreds of prospects a year who willingly go play for peanuts. You could make this argument about literally anything. Why cant McDonalds pay people 25 an hour? They certainly could but people work for them for much less.


BonerSoupAndSalad

Someone above said they probably make more as a mover… well, I think a minor leaguer could figure out being a mover if they want to make that kind of money. You don’t HAVE to play baseball for a living.


BioRunner03

That's what I'm saying. If the salary was so shit then you simply shouldn't play. Once enough people don't play, they'll be forced to raise salaries. That's how supply and demand works.


Canzalone9

No but if someone is doing labor that is part of your billion dollar machine you can pay them a fair wage or you’re a greedy jackass


tyler-86

I always have weird fiscally conservative feelings when it comes to things like that and I end up feeling bad about it. Hotel workers here in San Francisco protested for higher wages years ago because their pay couldn't support them living close to where they work. But where they work has an insane COL and they're mostly doing unskilled labor. I just don't see how the market could support paying them what it would cost to live here. And during the protests, the hotels bused in scabs. And I'm thinking if these scabs are willing to travel far for less pay than you want, what leverage do you have to protest? But at the same time, the income inequality in this country is absolutely a huge problem that I think needs to be dealt with one way or another. It all blows.


BioRunner03

Agreed totally, one of the issues of improving technology and automation. Think of all the things a hotel worker 30 years ago would be responsible for if there wasn't any website. They would have knowledge that others don't have. We thought it would make our lives better but all it did was create haves and have nots. I'm fortunate to be in a job that requires nuanced thought and won't be automated anytime soon.


yyyyhhhh9

Sorry we're too busy paying CEOs and Max Scherzer $35,000,000 a year.


ReyHebreoKOTJ

Scherezer deserves his wage. But so to do the minor league players deserve a non poverty wage


yyyyhhhh9

> Scherezer deserves his wage. No he doesn't. No one deserves hundreds of millions of dollars.


realparkingbrake

> No he doesn't. No one deserves hundreds of millions of dollars. Of course they do. A star pitcher can result in hundreds of thousands more tickets being sold by his team every season, and similar increases in the TV audience which produces more advertising revenue. That applies to all sports, people will buy tickets to see a Max Scherzer or a Michael Jordan or a Wayne Gretzky play, such players have a huge impact on team revenues. If the team is going to make many extra millions a year thanks to that star player, why shouldn't the player benefit from that? Teams don't sign three hundred million dollars contracts out of the goodness of their heart, they do it because those players are good for business. And in the past decade business has been very good, with team revenues almost doubling.


yyyyhhhh9

> A star pitcher can result in hundreds of thousands more tickets being sold by his team every season *A star pitcher who relies on the labor of minimum wage workers or sub minimum wage workers as well as public handouts to improve his labor value can help sell tickets by exploiting the aforementioned.


Botswana_Honeywrench

Seems like he earned it though


tyler-86

No one \*needs\* hundreds of millions of dollars. The market has dictated that he deserves it because someone is willing to pay him that much. Obviously there are much more useful, pragmatic places that money could be going but forcing money to move around in a capitalist economy is a whole conversation.


namey___mcnameface

It's part of the entertainment industry. He deserves whatever amount the fans are willing to pay to support.


yyyyhhhh9

> He deserves whatever amount the fans are willing to pay to support. This thinking is also the justification for paying minor leaguers peanuts.


matchosan

No one person should have billions of dollars either. Everyone deserves their fair share.


ReyHebreoKOTJ

Yes he does. People pay the owners to watch him. The owners make absurd sums of money because the people pay to watch him. He deserves a reasonable percentage of that as recompense


Quople

Well the billionaire owners think he does and I’m okay with those hundreds of millions being in Max’s pocket instead of theirs


matchosan

Max deserves more, just like the rest of the players. Then Max and the other players can use that money to pay their employees a fair wage, and so on, and so on ...


stoneman9284

I know owners will be made out as the villains here, and rightfully so in most cases. But let’s not forget there are individual MLB players making $20-30 million per year. The entire system is disgusting and MLB players are fine with it.


realparkingbrake

> let’s not forget there are individual MLB players making $20-30 million per year They're worth every penny because they put butts in seats, or at least in front of TV screens. Star players more than pay for themselves, they're who the public will pay to watch. Look at what happens to ticket sales on days when a star pitcher is working. The teams sign those players because they improve revenues, it's not an act of charity.


stoneman9284

100% agree with all of that. But minor league baseball is part of the structure which allows MLB to exist so why isn’t it treated as such? Everyone tries to talk a good game and say reform is needed until the money is going to come out of their pocket. Goes for the players as well as owners in my opinion.


Aaron_Fudge_99

There’s literally almost no one at the Phillies game Today they have over a 200 million dollar payroll lmao


5th_degree_burns

The owners want you to fixate specifically on those few players and ignore everything else. That's part of the problem. This is about a lot more than just the 40-man roster player salaries.


stoneman9284

Totally. I’m just a little sick of hearing MLB players talk about how reform is needed and minor leaguers should be paid more as long as it doesn’t affect MLB salaries. Although I recognize that’s not what this article is.


Notoporoc

I think baseball minor league players should be paid for. But I think this particular player confuses can't and won't.


Shotsyay

Because of supply and demand.


Free-Willingness3870

Because the truth is most guys aren’t making it to the bigs. The MLB shouldn’t have to subsidize every single kids dream. That’s just the cruel reality. The more pertinent question is why MLB teams would be okay with their future prospects being malnourished with unstable living conditions? There’s gotta be a happy medium here. Edit: I didn’t mean for this to come across as insensitive. But, we’re not talking about forced labor here…. If I sucked at waiting tables, and my take home came out to below living wages, I’d find new work. I stand by my statement that the MLB should not be responsible for subsidizing the delusion of low level minor leaguers. Edit 2: There’s a little over 7,000 minor leaguers. Roughly 10% will make the MLB. We’ll call it 15% to placate the meatheads in here (don’t wanna ruin the dreams of any minor leaguers that are reading this). That’s roughly 5900 people you’re paying- each year- to provide nothing of financial substance to the league itself. The MLB teams don’t even own their own affiliates you inbreds! If you want to help minor leaguers get paid, get the fuck off the internet and go support your local minor league affiliate. Financially.


feeling_blue_42

I think the idea is that MLB should have to subsidize living wages to the same extent every other business in the country has to follow fair labor practice laws.


Free-Willingness3870

And I believe they do, within reason. The minor league player pool is MASSIVE. I highly doubt anybody with a high probability of making the MLB is struggling with day to day needs. It’s a pretty nuanced discussion, and the MLB needs to do a better job. If for no other reason than selfish ones. Personally, I think we just need to scale back on the depth of minor league affiliates. The majority of these guys have no shot. Just cut the fat and pay the guys that deserve to be there.


Kapp_E_Tan

If you made the team you deserve to be there.


Free-Willingness3870

Deserve to be there in the sense of “ realistic chance to make the MLB.” I’m good enough to make my mens league team. Doesn’t mean they should pay me to be there.


Kapp_E_Tan

Does you men's league team make money from you being there? If yes then you probably should be getting paid. In addition, you're looking at it wrong. They don't need all these guys to be major league calibur players. These teams are there for the purpose of helping to develop the minimal amount of players that WILL make it. You can't do that without people.


Free-Willingness3870

That was mostly a straw man haha (guilty). I don’t even play mens league. Players don’t develop against lesser competition. The entire system is diluted at the lower levels. High A and up, I agree, they should be compensated for the overall success of the system. But High A thru AAA only accounts for roughly 2400 players. There’s over 7000 affiliated minor league players. It’s not feasible to pay them all.


Shotsyay

You getting downvoted constantly is infuriating to me. Lazy-ass motherfuckers here.


Kapp_E_Tan

What's lazy about a downvote? If you disagree with a person but have nothing to add to a discussion why comment? You know. Like you did...


Kapp_E_Tan

So I would happily agree that some of these leagues should be converted to something different. Or maybe even keep them but they're some sort of weekend tourney every week for a few months. Team pays for lodging, travel, a small salary, etc... But it lets the players have "real" jobs that if they manage to get called up to the "real" league they can quit. The other point is where we're looking at things very differently I think. You're looking at it as "they're never gonna make it so why bother" and as you said people "don't get better against lesser competition". The thing is these guys aren't "lesser competition" to a newly drafter player. They're better than who you played in highschool. They're better than you who played in college. So every step of the way it's an incremental increase that doesn't overwhelm. Think of if you decided to try and play chess professionally and you only got put against Magnus Carlson. You're not gonna learn very much because he's going to beat you in 10 moves and you'll never get time to learn. You're gonna be dejected as hell. Back to baseball, and there are obvious exceptions like in all things, but if you're used to seeing 70mph fastballs you're not going to learn anything having guys just throw 101 and blow it by you. So you put them where it's an 80. Then an 85... Etc .. Some guys may come along just being thrown in but a lot more benefit from a slow ramp up.


Free-Willingness3870

It’s not really a “why bother” philosophy. I don’t mean it to come across that way. It’s more that there’s a threshold of talent where it’s not feasible to pay them anymore. I’m not 100% where that line gets drawn. But I’m fairly confident that line should be less than 7,000 players. My philosophy is based on the premise that “legitimate” talent doesn’t get neglected in the minors. And couldn’t agree more about gradual exposure. But that gradual exposure exists in a 3 tiered system. That still leaves college, Japan, Mexico, etc if you’re really hell bent on playing professional baseball. If you’re 23 years old, fresh off 4 years of college ball, and you still can’t hit single A pitching…. You’re just not cut out for professional baseball.


Kapp_E_Tan

I feel like we've come to a general consensus that there needs to be a streamlined system and that makes me happy. I do agree that we don't need all these "leagues" etc... That being said I would like to say that we have them and while they exist their players should be able to survive on what they're paid. MLB as an organization made over 12 billion dollars in profits last year. It would cost what...4-5 million per parent team to pay them a living wage. So to pay people a living wage would cost them .013 of last year's profits. Just saying...


Notoporoc

>every other business in the country has to follow fair labor practice laws. This makes it sound like MILB is breaking the law. I do not think that they are. The law should be changed so they are paid more.


CybeastID

Considering the law they're ducking under treats it like an *apprenticeship* and they literally pay less than federal minumum wage...


feeling_blue_42

There has been some question as to whether or not they are breaking the law because of what is "required" for the job. If you say the hours of training that players do is required, then there probably are labor laws being broken. Owners trying to argue the training is not required is disingenuous at best. But to your point, there is a "Save America's Pastime" Act that legally lets MiLB get away with a lot. I know that without it MLB would probably just have less MiLB teams, and I'm not against congress trying to do something to save teams in small town America, but then it needs to be at overall taxpayer expense not at the expense of young guys with a lottery ticket dangled in their face. So yes, the laws do need to be changed, there should be no special treatment for MiLB at the players' expense, and the players need to be treated fairly otherwise.


Free-Willingness3870

Yeah, I just don’t understand the push to “save americas past time.” They wanna subsidize minor league teams that nobody wants to watch. And that’s why minor league players don’t get paid. People don’t pay to watch them play. Meanwhile there’s reports of white superstars wiping eye black off of black superstars faces. And then everyone’s like “I can’t figure out why people don’t wanna watch baseball?”


SamuraiHelmet

Sure, but as it stands, that means no minor leagues. If every player that had no real shot quit instead of being marginally subsidized by signing bonuses, spouses, or second jobs, there'd be maybe one level before the majors and baseball would be worse for it. And the point isn't that baseball is subsidizing their delusion of MLB play, it's that baseball wants to have the minor leagues around to train their players but they don't want to have to pay those minor leaguers what they're worth. Despite their lack of value at the majors, minor leaguers are still worth something to teams; otherwise, they'd cut the whole team and put prospects in beer leagues. To your analogy, if there was a table waiting hierarchy that led up to Michelin starred restaurants, minor leaguers are getting seasoned in a local Denny's. The difference is that even that Denny's has to pay minimum wage, while baseball teams do not.


Free-Willingness3870

That Dennys only has to pay minimum server wages. They aren’t personally responsible for a living wage. The rest comes from tipping customers. If fans showed up to the park and gave players cash every time they made a good play, nobody would be complaining. The issue is that minor league baseball is diluted and it’s not fun to watch most games. There’s no money in it. Being the 5,000th best in a field of 8,000 shouldn’t get you paid. It’s a niche field, so it is very impressive to get to that level. But it shouldn’t entitle you to anything. Again, this is being painted as a forced labor issue. It’s not. In the real world, when you can’t cut it, you find other work. Nothing is stopping these fringe guys from moving on from baseball and taking a higher paying job in a different field. To me the argument should be framed around whether or not there’s an inefficiency here. Would teams have better players/make more money if they invested more in their upper minors? I think the answer to that is most likely yes.


SamuraiHelmet

Denny's is responsible for meeting server minimum wage, which is legally required to be at least hourly minimum wage. You can argue all day about the reality of tips, server minimum wage, and cash transactions, but the law is very clearly intended to require that everyone make minimum wage, regardless of how that breaks down to tips vs employer compensation. In the real world, even when you can't cut it and have to move on, your employer is still required to pay you minimum wage. A salesman that can't close sales may not get commission, but they get a base pay in excess of minimum wage. Baseball players do not.


Shotsyay

This is the best comment here.


tyler-86

This definitely feels like one of the ones that's downvoted for Reddit demographic reasons and not because it's low effort or mean. Except the part where he calls people inbreds.


Environmental_Swim66

Do minor leaguers have a Union?


summingthesquares

They do not, minor league players on the 40 man roster are in the MLBPA


DiscoJer

This would be less ironic if the WP didn't have a paywall keeping poor people out. But I work at Walmart. Why can't Walmart pay a living wage to people who aren't truck drivers? We are responsible for unloading trucks, putting product on shelves, risking our lives so people can eat and live. Okay, it's not super dangerous, but I've known multiple people who had to quit because they got injured from the job and there have been people killed from pallets falling on them. (I myself once had a narrow escape from a 2000 lb pallet of dog food breaking) Walmart actually raised wages this past year, but then they cut hours


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[удалено]


dingusduglas

This comment doesn't really make any sense. Many of the largest employers don't pay a living wage to entry level employees, and that's a huge issue. But obviously many positions and employees do receive living wages. I've been paid well at a couple previous jobs, although I'm back to making a pittance now.


EmptyCartographer

The problem is that wages aren’t increasing at the same rate as cost of living or inflation. A “livable wage” can quickly become too low with prices increasing so quickly


ailodawg

Fairly certain living wages are calculated and adjusted to inflation and cost of living in the cities they are paid out, atleast it is in the uk i believe.


Count_Bacon

They could that’s just less money the owner gets to pocket


celtic1888

Sorry Owners who would are rich enough that your minor league salaries are a rounding error need to be a little bit more rich while a bunch of people suffer


ichuck1984

Because I can only name one minor league team in my state and region, I’ve been to one minor league about 25 years ago, I couldn’t name a single player, and I highly doubt their games are televised. Other than that, I don’t see any reason they can’t pay a living wage.


Aaron_Fudge_99

How is he alive?


LibbyLibbyWaaa

If teams can’t pay livable wages maybe they should sell minor league teams to new owners.