T O P

[OC] Map of the exclaves of Qazakh

[OC] Map of the exclaves of Qazakh

[deleted]

I still have no idea what happens here. Obviously the exclaves are under Armenian control, but is the Azerbaijani main land also occupied by Armenia?


GoldenHope_

yes.


[deleted]

Wtf how is this possible


CrazedZombie

The line of contact doesn’t follow the actual border exactly. There’s tons of places where the opposite is true. There’s an instance of this right on this map, which the OP continently left out, the area above the Joghaz reservoir is completely occupied by Azerbaijan. See google maps, you can see the trench lines and even an road running through there.


[deleted]

Each party should go back to its own border


araz95

As always great OC golden!


G56G

I know current Armenia will not agree to this, but don't you think it would be best to swap the land for these small exclaves? For the exact same size of land but not an exclave.


Lt_486

How do you land swap with not-an-inchers? Whole DQ conflict could have been solved back in 1990s with land swap, but you-know-who killed their leader for merely considering the mutually beneficial land swap. Some people are like kids, they are just having unproductive tantrums, and get spanked hard.


G56G

I am absolutely not talking about Nogorno-Karabakh when I mentioned the land swap. It is a huge chunk of Azerbaijan and cannot be swapped like that. Were there even talks about it?


Lt_486

Yeah, Americans proposed it to solve the problem for the best outcome, part of DQ with Lachin in exchange for part of Zangezur with Meghri. Square meter for square meter, equal swap. Both Azerbaijan and Armenia get to be continuous with minimal population exchange and Armenia get to have access road/railroad to Iran thru Nakhchevan. It was a fair deal and backed by US with some investments. Russia did not like it, and Armenian nationalists went coco-loco over it, killing some politicians. Even now Southern parts of Zangezur stay depopulated after ethnic cleansing of Azerbaijanis, empty village after empty village. They did not want to exchange empty lands to make life good for residents of DQ.


G56G

I see. I mean if both Azerbaijan and Armenia would benefit, why not? The only country that benefits from these border disputes is Russia. Not Armenia, not Azerbaijan, ONLY Russia. If Armenia were actually independent in its own affairs, they would probably agree on a deal like this.


Lt_486

It is a curious thing. If you look at it from rational point of view, minimizing costs and maximizing benefits, it was the best deal on the table. Armenians violently refusing that deal can only be explained if Armenian history of decision making is taken into account. In my theory, and it is just a theory, Armenians do not seek actual benefits from their collective decisions, instead they just want to measure up to some mythical ancestors "who were as tall as mountains, as strong as iron, and other blah-blah." Kind of "what's the point of running this insignificant country when our ancestors had The Glorious Empire?" "All or nothing," and Armenians keep getting nothing.


G56G

It's a KGB manipulation technique to make people fetishize their past. It puts people into almost a trance-type state, kind of sedates them, and makes it easy to control them. Plus, it's so easy to create myths and fairy tales about some distant past. Once they start believing myths, it becomes their favorite pass time. In their brain, the priorities go like this: Past>Present>Future. To me it goes: present Georgia, then future Georgia and then the past Georgia. I don't understand why our ancestors are more important than the living Georgians. They were not.


Full_Friendship_8769

Armenian here: I was thinking about doing something a little bit different - not swaping enclaves, because people already lvie there, but rather swaping land between enclaves to connect them to their respective countries. Unless no one lives there, then just a normal land swap


G56G

Sure. Delimitation is very complex work. Both parties have to agree and compromise. A lot of human, historical, strategic and other factors are involved. But as a result, we have stable borders. Stable borders make everything so much safer. Georgia is almost done delimiting its border with Armenia and Azerbaijan. It's fully done with Turkey. Sadly, we cannot fully delimit our border with Russia just like Azerbaijan cannot delimit its border with Armenia due to the conflicts.


ragradoth

You guys should read the Armenian version of the etymology of the word Ayrum on Wiki.


Nomadic_warrior22

How many Ayrums are there today though?


[deleted]

A few thousand probably. A huge chunk of Gədəbəy's population is Ayrım. And then there are a lot of them who live in Iran.